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Out in the Woods

I’m out at the training site, posting by phone, in preparation for this weekend’s CRCD class.

Full blog service will resume on Tuesday. Or maybe sooner if I get a burning urge to write on a topic.

In the meantime, after our little foray into paranoia, let’s get back to tactics.

I invite you to use this post as a pseudo forum, to discuss anything useful, as you wish. I’ll moderate and publish comments as I can from my phone. It’s mostly pretty fast until I’m teaching.

Have at it.

Max

123 responses to “Out in the Woods”

  1. Max,

    Thank you for the recent posts & videos regarding the RLI. They were very inspiring. See you Saturday.

  2. The RLI video’s were awesome. Inspiring as it points out the misreporting by most media…. it was Communism that the fight was about.

    Amazing or NOT that Britain and the United States withdrew support leading to the collapse WHY?? Was the west tired could not engage in another fight or were….. are we so compromised with communists in government and bureaucracy and the media and their “progressive” supporters that we are being led-misled into communism….?

  3. Remember to stay hydrated this weekend. Also pay attention to over heating. It is easy to dehydrate and over heat in the winter.

    • Yes. Written about before. Typing on my phone. Vital if you are going the PVS-14 route. Night vision monocular needs to be head/helmet mounted, not on the rifle. So you can see when patrolling without your rifle stuck to your eye. Vital interface is now how to sight rifle to engage enemy. Bridge the gap with a DBAL. Civvy legal IR and visible laser. It has everything the mil spec has without the high power IR setting. That’s fine for shooting at night. You can get them from TNVC. So the PVS/DBAL go together. You can use cheaper visible lasers that are designed for rifle use. You get what you pay for.

      • Skull crusher for patrols and helmet for ops? What do you recommend for the Pvs-14 as far as mounting them on your head?

        • Choices:
          Ballistic helmet, ACH style.
          Reduced profile ballistic helmet, FAST style.
          Protec-style as head mount and bump protection.
          Air soft knock off FAST style plastic helmet, comes with NVG mount as per FAST.
          Skull crusher.

    • When you can’t find a helmet? There is literally no reason not to own a helmet, even the ops core shell ones are so cheap as to be to the point of being semi-disposable. Remember that also that a helmet is more use than just an NV platform, if for example you’re hammering across the desert in a sandrail on your way to go hang a few mortar rounds at a cannibalistic San Franciscan position it will probably at some point save you from a mild concussion.

    • Only if you are on patrol and weight is an issue. I would not want the helmet to carry for days at a time. Most times I would have the NV on my battle belt. If night ops were indicated, a skull crusher would be the only choice. I was hoping for another option which was compact and light enough to have for my daily carry.

      • The OPS core and pro-tec shells (shells are bump protection helmets and offer no ballistic protection) are light as shit (the latter being 15oz including rails), if you get the chance to fuck around with one, try it out. That’s not to say that it’s always appropriate to take a helmet but if you want a cheap, safe, dual use mount for your NV and something to stop you from smashing your noggin (yeah, I’m that guy, the whiny safety sally, don’t like it? sue me) up in the back of a vehicle as you’re escaping from the hoards of cannibals and their government lackeys.

        The pro-tec helmets are cheap enough that if you bust it up or lose it, you can swallow up the loss pretty easily (I picked one up for canoeing for £40). I guess it boils down to if its relevant for the mission and if you feel 15oz is a little too heavy for you. If you feel comfortable mounting your $3k NVs on a skull crusher then more power to you.

  6. If we’re talking tactics and stuff, is there a place for a unit like the Grey’s Scouts and how on earth would you even begin to train such a unit based around people’s family and work commitments?

    • FS, I think there is and the mounted maneuver part would be easy to train: Go for a group ride. Break into pairs and practice bounding overwatch. Form into a wedge while trotting. Practice galloping on line. Mount and dismount while moving. Etc.

      Use this time to emplace/check caches, approaches, observation positions, do some time/distance rehearsals. Get some of the old cavalry manuals and care for your horse in the field instead of the barn. Most of this could be done on a day ride.

      Most everything you do that doesn’t involve weapons can be embedded in a routine. It builds your cover and gives you a reason for being somewhere. Leave your cell phone at home.

      • Unfortunately I’m not blessed enough to live in a country with easy access to firearms and sympathetic paramilitary training laws. It’s more of a mind excercise that someone else might take up and run with.

    • Like QuietMan said, incorporate routine into your daily life. Practice mounted land navigation using map, terrain association, and control of time/distance when you travel by car. Gat a friend to drive while you navigate using a topographic map.

      Practice reconnaissance techniques when hiking. For example, pick a target to recon, develop a surveillance and reconnaissance plan and execute it. Combine this with photography. You can recon anything – the local unimart, a hospital, a park. Combine the hike and recon with ensuring that your equipment and actions blend with your environment.

      With any of these activities, develop your learning objectives and ensure that you meet them. You must have an identifiable plan that includes learning objectives and evaluation criteria. Think about it this way, everything is training and all training is evaluated.

      • It occurs to me: have you read Patriot Dawn? It would shed some light on the matter. Provided you have ammo to spare, and can get far enough away out into the wilderness, you can train. It’s what guerrillas do.
        Wait for it…..

        METT-TC dependent….

        You can always acquire more ammo. Not more training, if you died.

        • Max

          You have in part answered the question from my own post but I can’t help think about all of those training camps that are identified through their training activates and then eliminated. Even if such activities are separated from primary camps like in your book, it’s just a matter of patience for the enemy to wait for the fighters to return to their primary base of operations to deal an operational death blow, much like what happens in a criminal investigation. Even with the use of vegetative cover so much unit level movement within a specific wilderness area increases the likelihood of being noticed, even if dispersed into its smaller components. But maybe this may not stand out as much as think as there is a tendency for a great deal of human milling about the countryside in a post event situation. This too assumes that a policy of extermination is not implemented for those caught outside of authorized areas like cities and sectors of resource production making wilderness areas free fire zones for any contact. Am I letting the paranoia of the “All Seeing Eye” run rampant here? I guess that it’s just a matter of surviving in the margins as you say and accepting that some groups will inevitable be wiped out regardless of their best efforts, the proverbial price of admission.

          • Yes. The Eye of Mordor is not all seeing. Remember: in PD they trained then went operational. Granted, you need sustainment training and also to train new recruits. But you don’t have to have permanent training camps. Mobility.

        • I’m stoked! I just received today Patriot Dawn and Contact, I have been looking forward to reading them. I am hoping this will help me to start thinking tactically. This is all new to me.
          Sic semper evello mortem Tyrannis!

        • No, I haven’t yet read it.

          Weapons training concerns me. The US Army trained aimed fire for all soldiers. Those with no military experience need to begin their weapons training learning the fundamentals of marksmanship and training up to that level so that, when they move to more advanced tactical training, they can actually hit what they shoot at.

          Weapons manipulation during tactical training is a separate matter. It requires that individuals safely manipulate their weapons so that they don’t shoot each other during live fire.

          Getting to the wilderness is necessary for the tactical training with guns but not necessarily so for marksmanship training.

          Individuals have to take what they learn in a course, extrapolate that to their situation, and apply what they learned.

    • Part of your question seems to be one of recruiting and commitment. If something is important we must find time for it, both personally and in those recruited to be part of a team. If those in a group cannot find time to train, a group is all they are, a team must train together. With the demands of modern life this presents a great challenge as the system is designed to keep us compartmentalized and distracted. So in order to overcome the limitations of the system we must discard its components whenever possible. Prior to waking up I personally wasted time on all manner of worthless media, as did most of my associations. Breaking free of this common time waster has allowed for more important commitments. Also one of the tactics for finding time that I’ve found is to pursue projects when most people would be asleep. Many a great men like Ben Franklin, Leonardo da Vinci and Napoleon where known to sacrifice sleep for greater productivity but doing so requires an especially disciplined mind to overcome the commonly felt discomfort. I say discomfort to distinguish between the effects of real sleep deprivation. Losing a few hours of sleep a week for training is not sleep deprivation though I’m not saying it’s natural or healthy. If the demands of our times require an early death by burning the candle of life from both ends then so be it. In such dangerous times we can’t be planning on living forever can we?

      Your question also makes me wonder about the viability of the equestrian arts in fighting against a more powerful modern authoritarian foe, which should not be confused with the conventional value of horses after a systemic collapse. In addressing this question I’ve decided to draw upon the Native American experience for similarities. Native Americans were able to arm themselves with conventional small arms, employ unconventional tactics, and use horses. But unlike the Indian Wars a modern large nation state like enemy is unlikely to be dependent upon horses. Thus, if horses are understood to be a resource for resistance the horse will occupy the logistical position more likened to that of the buffalo and subsequently be denied to the resistance through a program of extermination just like the buffalo were. This combined with a horse population that has fallen drastically since the late 19th and early 20th centuries will reduce the availability horses. In mounted combat horses are lost just as men are lost so the need to replace them must also be considered. Native Americans were able to replace losses by stealing from a largely available horse population, such a population in unlikely to exist in the near future.

      Finally we must address if the horse is suited for the tactics being championed. The value of the horse has been traditionally in its use on relatively flat open terrain. But the tactics being championed are ones that ideally ovoid such terrain often referred to as “tank country”, a terrain easy dominated by the technology superior. In such country equestrian units are easy prey for armor, air power, and snipers. The avoidance of “tank country” would result in the employment of horses in a terrain where their mobility advantages are greatly reduced. This means that the horse would become little more than a pack animal. Given all of the likely disadvantages of horses in the future combat environment the allotting of training time for such mounted operations is hard to justify. Also when it comes to pack animals the human animal will do just fine. Gen. Patton in his analysis of the Russian infantry was noted as saying that” much of the equipment moved by machines in most armies was carried by the Russian solider” and with little detriment to mobility as clearly demonstrated by their rapid advance towards Berlin. I guess we just need to suck it up.

  7. This isn’t a tactics comments but a survival post. I have been doing some looking for years for reliable antibiotics. Finally found a sit that has good stuff. Reasonably priced. Its a company in Canada that manufactures in India. Most meds are manufactured there. Some of the med names have to be cross referenced bit its easy enough in google. Great customer service and great products. http://www.alldaychemist.com

    Easier than trting to convince your dr to write a scrip or buying fish and animal antibiotics. Again I know this isn’t a tactics matter but this post seemed like a good one to out it on.

  9. One of the questions that I’ve had rattling around in my mind is that of training in a post event situation. Much is made about the need to train and the need to maintain ones skills but I wonder how this can be done post event? Training with firearms for instance is noisy and drains resources. Also even if a prior trained individual can maintain their skills, new recruits will need to be trained up. Such unconventional forces lack the training pipeline of conventional militaries, namely the separation between training and battlefield environments. A failure to address this issue will undermine the capability to apply the tactics being advocated. The best I’ve come up with is some sort of dry fire practice with the addition of tactical movement. Any thoughts?

    • I would assume teaching fundamentals with dry firing would be very practical. Tactics can be practiced without live firing until you feel everyone is proficient enough to try live fire.

      Eventually, your new shooters would have to put rounds onto or into something.

      • John thanks for the feedback.

        It’s that putting rounds into something that worries me. Outside of risks presented noise the expenditure of ammo would in some way have to be balanced with the ability to resupply. Maybe along with dry fire and movement an ammo ration would be implemented like in the VC but hopefully we could do better than the 1rd a week allotment. Noise could be address with some basic manufacturing capability where suppressers could be used in conjunction with reloaded subsonic ammo but this requires an increased level of operational complexity which is always worrisome under such conditions.

        • I can think of no substitute for putting rounds down range but as has been pointed out, airsoft offers strong possibilities. I recently read an article about how the Japanese utilize airsoft in training for competition here in the U.S. and do quite well. After all fundamentals are fundamentals so the ability to practice the correct firing positions, sight picture, and trigger pull are all standard, with weapons manipulation being VERY similar for most of the higher quality airsoft guns.

          Of course there is also higher end pellet guns which are quite accurate up to certain distances and sound would be of limited concern. Again the fundamentals for a good result are the same or very similar to regular firearms.

          Both of these would give an individual the basics but again as there is nothing like real combat there is nothing like putting lead down range. At least with the above the trainees would have a very good basis from which to start.

    • At the risk of sounding silly, how about training with paintball, or airsoft? Youd still have to work in gun handling, mag changes and the like, but seems like for the fitness and movement aspects paintball could be a viable alternative…

      • FatTire

        My question was in relation to training post event within a hostile environment. I fear other non-weapon systems would just add to operational complexity, different equipment and different ammo. Also the sim-weapon would need to have the same battery of arms as the actual weapon otherwise such training could lead to failed weapon manipulation during the loss of higher cognitive function that often accompanies the fear response of combat, especially for the uninitiated. This is less of a concern for air soft as those tools replicate the real thing rather closely. Prior to open hostilities I believe air soft does have a limited force on force CQB role unless of course one can access sim-rounds which are better. But in regards to both air soft and CQB I fear Max might say we would be better off spending time and resources out in the bush training light infantry tactics. Max, could you clarify this?

        • FT- it’s not a totally silly concept- MDT over on WRSA actually does some training classes involving airsoft.
          Perioiki actually nailed some of the pros/cons pretty good.
          Actually, it’s funny you asked this, as I just put up a review/theory article on my blog- you should be able to get there by clicking my username, if you’d like.

    • Modern armies fail at training during hostilities. Whenever a unit moves ” off the line” for rest, rearm, refit, part of what they should do is train. Everyone needs to re-zero, practice those TTPs they use regularly, practice any new skills that will be used due to mission change, etc. they also need to integrate replacements.

      Training is absolutely necessary to ensure that new guys have some idea of how the unit operates and what they are expected to know and do. Taking new guys out without training is a disaster waiting to happen. The same is true for old guys who have not been operating with the unit. Never assume that they will do what they were trained to do when they have been out of the bush for a while.

      When you are in the theater, there is no difference between training and battlefield environments. You are in contact or you are training to be in contact. That is an over simplification but it is a truism.

      You should be dry-firing every day, doing dime/washer drills, and rifle/pistole transitions. You can do those in your man cave. The same is true for tactical movement. Use your eyes to see where the next covered position is, think about how you get there, what the next move would look like. Use the excuse of walking the dog to do your “terrain walk.” You can practice 3 – 5 second rushes while you do your run. Fartlek is a good tool to include in your exercise plan.

      In training, you are only limited by your imagination.

        • Thanks for the link, I have not seen that post. I agree with just about everything Max said in that post. He is especially correct that the shooter must know his rifle. That is why I do not change away from the M16 / M4 platform – I know it.

          However, I believe that a rifleman should carry a handgun and know how to use it. I personally know a gentleman that fought the Battle of Mogadishu with his side arm because he had a catastrophic failure with his rifle on the first round that he fired. There is no feeling in the world worse than having only a pistol when you need a rifle except the feeling of having nothing when you need rifle.

  10. Good points on the training. Much can be done no-fire, just getting patrolling procedures down. Then when ready, suppressors would be the ticket, for a lot of reasons.

  11. F.S. If you wish to train in horse tactics , Try using the lance, Bow ,and sword. MANY of the formations and tactics used with antique weapons convert to modern weapons with ease. In learning Cavalry tactics you improve your military horsemanship and provide yourself with “cover” by entering into a “harmless” living history hobby. This could be a real “plus” in places like the UK. Don’t underestimate the power or lethality of weapons that are “old” or “outdated”. An English Warbow will penetrate all known soft body armor, and do so at two hundred yards. So will the lance and the sword, and they never run out of ammunition. They are a really good way to capture an enemy weapon SILENTLY, they also provide good physical training and lethal “real world” utility.

  12. Salesman told me a FLIR scout will not work through windows. As inside the house and scanning the outside for heat signatures. Anyone confirm?

    • It won’t. I had a brief scare in the car because I forgot to roll down the windows. Thought it had crapped out the first day. Guys with me were ROFLOL ing.

      I’ve already used mine to recover the neighbor’s dog after he escaped into the darkness. Caught him pissing on my tree. Yes, you could tell what he was doing. Quite a thermal bloom when it’s 20F outside.

      Take a look at your windows, doors, and duct work for practice. You can see where you’re leaking heat. Seal those holes and save money, too. It’s good practice. I’ve also located buried phone lines, etc.

      This will get really interesting when it warms up enough for people to be out and about.

    • Sam, he’s almost correct. More precisely, GLASS IN GENERAL dicks with FLIR, windows or otherwise, and Scout or otherwise (tuck that away for future reference). Don’t let that stop you from getting a Scout. Great little units. If you only get one “after dark” device, get FLIR. NV is good, and very useful. But, FLIR is great. Be careful of any NV that has a IR illumination on it to enhance the vision, though. It may be handy, but that IR will shine like the sun for anyone else sporting NV. Same with lasers; they point both ways. Assume the bad guys also have NV. They’ll see your IR and Laser, just as you can see theirs. Nifty trick? Experiment with el cheapo camcorders that have “night shot”. They use IR, but can also see IR lights. Hint hint.

  14. Going back to the early part of this thread, concerning NV/IR. One of the things I look at, as a tac gear maker, is the difference in load-outs. For instance, when switching to NV/IR ops, your load-out changes dramatically. Starting with your weapon, you now need a IR laser and an IR illuminator, and possibly some kind of dual tape switch. This adds much weight/complexity to your gat. Then the NV optic itself. The optimum set up to use with a weapon, is a head mount, either a bump or ballistic helmet. This is all well and good, but it also adds much complexity to your load out. Talking with guys that do this kind of thing for a living, I’ve found that the helmet and goggles are usually only worn when actually needed (actions on the objective). During insert/infil, and exfil/extract, this stuff is stowed, if at all possible (all that shit on your head is heavy and tight head bands cause headaches). So you need some kind of way to carry it when not needed. Some modern assault packs feature an expanding pocket or “beavertail” for this purpose.

    Sooo, what I’m wondering here, as LI in an U/W scenario, is the added complexity to our weapons, equipment, and tactics worth the capability that NV (and TI) brings to the table? If so, in what instances, and then how does this effect how we prepare and train?

    The reason I ask is because I find myself setting up two separate load-outs these days. For “deep woods” ops, I try and keep everything as light and simple as possible. Experience has shown that ounces become pounds after days in the bush. I think guys in Max’s classes have discovered just how hard the basics can be. Extra weight means less performance. Just to carry 25 lbs of fighting gear can be a chore.

    For “urban” ops, including the E&E plan for many of us, I set up with body armor, and NV. The additional weight is off-set by the additional likelihood of contact. But these are mainly home and vehicle-based ops, so sustainment items may not be worn.

  15. I tend to take the opposite approach on this. Skill with an IR laser and goggles greatly improves your ability to hit at night and reduces the amount of ammo you have to carry. It also reduces your exposure time on the objective since you hit better and faster. I dislike the tape switches and mount white light and IR so it takes a deliberate motion to activate them.

    Our load out was always NVGs, water (and purification tabs), signal gear (radio, cut down VS17, strobe, etc.), medical (in the same place on everyone), and ammo. Reading “Blackhawk Down” as an AAR shows what happens when you try to tailor your load for what you think is an appropriate amount of time. As sure as the sun rose, it’ll set. Whether or not you see it rise again is somewhat up to you.

    • I’m sure what you say is true, for you and your situation. What I’m wondering though is in deep woods, as Max is training here, and how we may very likely have to fight, is this capability still worth the extra weight? It seems to me, with my limited experience with NV, that it is more optimized for urban or more open rural terrain. When you are in thick bush, does this still hold true? Not busting your ass at night is hard enough with both eyes on the job, let alone with a helmet and optic covering one eye. Just sayin’. I could see pouching it up and scanning at security halts, but wearing it all the time? Dunno. Terrain and situation.

      Another consideration, very similar to body armor, is the added weight to your load out. When patrolling as LI in a UW scenario, you pretty much have to carry sustainment (ruck) along with fighting load out most of the time. Probably no vehicles to work out of. But even if you drop rucks at the ORP, you still have an easy 25 lbs of rifle, mags n ammo, plus 14 lbs of BA, and/or 6 lbs of NV gear. I would hazard to bet, that the average joe would have a hard time doing a break contact drill with all that shit on. We’re talking anywhere from 36 to 45 lbs, on top of the 20 lbs he’s been meaning to drop.

      I hear what you’re saying in planning for one thing and stepping into something else, but perhaps a dose of reality here, in relation to the “G’s” you’ll likely be working with. At least in the beginning. If this extra shit weighs us down and makes us slower and less effective, then should we go without it? At least until we can handle it.

      • Diz, I can’t speak for QM, but I have quite a bit of time wearing helmet-mounted PVS-14s in thick eastern US forest training areas, some of which is thick and nasty as hell. Walking with NODs is just something you have to learn by doing. And once you get used to it, you’ll see there is a substantial advantage to it. One of these is the ability to see visible light greatly amplified (cigarette, red lens flashlight, GPS display, etc.) and to see IR light which you cannot see with the naked eye. In fact, I’d say that NODs are actually more useful in the woods than in urban areas because there is essentially no artificial light to wash them out. At least not until the shooting starts or the illumination rounds go up.

        Body armor is a whole different set of issues which I won’t go into.

      • Wearing it is terrain and sit dependent, as is pretty much everything else. I’ve used PVS5s in the jungles and ANVS6s in an urban environment and 7s and 14s in both, as well as open forest such as at Max’s place. About the only place I’d have them pouched is in a jungle.

        That’s not to say wear them all the time, but I’d have them mounted. That’s one reason I run a 14 over my right eye: I can still use the left to sight the rifle with optic without fumbling with anything. Monoculars allow the best of both worlds, although I admit to flipping it up frequently.

        I hope your six pounds of NVG includes helmet, otherwise I’d like to know what you’re running. My entire NVG set up (PVS14), not including helmet, runs about 3 pounds and that includes batteries. I keep a lot of AAs since I’ve managed to get just about everything I need that runs them.

        I run a VITAL IR laser as well. If I need to shave a pound or two, I’ll dump the Clif bars and a magazine before I’ll part with night vision.

        • 10-4, the 6 lbs is a hi-cut helmet, shroud, mount, and -14 (with batts in ctr-wt pouch on rear), in addition to OTAL IR laser, and SF “Vampire” IR head. Obviously you fuckers have much more time on this gear than me. Not even gonna go there. Most of my experience was jungle (Oki, PI). Before NV. So I’m thinking wait-a-minute vines and shit like that. But point taken, when the forest floor opens up somewhat, like Max’s area, you’re GTG. So OK, it sounds like this stuff really is worth it. Thanks for the insight.

          • I suspected there was some jungle time in your comment. Can’t see far and it’s pitch black in there so you’re better off without it.

            I recently saw a carbon fiber bump helmet for about $600. I managed not to laugh. You can get a good MICH (if there is such a thing) for a couple of hundred. Wear a skull cap. If I don’t, it slides around and becomes a clay beret.

            Whenever someone talks about how many years they’ve done something, the first thing to do is watch and determine if it’s 20 years of experience or one year of experience 20 times. See also “square range.”

      • Diz, always have something for night. Whether you’re sporting it is, as others have said, dependent. Going out in the boonies with no NV/FLIR is essentially saying “I’ll only dust it up during daylight hours”. You’re hoping any bad shit goes down during the 12 hours the sun is up. I can tell you the preferred time to get frisky is when it’s dark. “We” are used to owning the night. This is also why I continuously caution all to remember Zombies have NV, too. Lasers and IR point both ways in NV and can be seen from Idaho. But, all that aside, having the ability at hand to see at night is muy importante.

  16. Max,

    What about a Train The Trainer program? Myself an another FAG have begun training people who want/need these skills in our Southwestern Desert AO, but we’d love to be able to tie in with a network and offer some affiliation with the bigger names in the biz.

    There were some interesting thoughts on this subject back in the comments about an MV forum. A section of the forum that would be dedicated to training and trainers.

    Discuss.

    • Here’s my totally in-expert opinion, based on some other things I’ve seen in the training world.

      As a sort of guarantor of authenticity that “what this person’s resume says is legit, and what they’re teaching is legit” than it’s a great idea- to many hacks out there that are going to try and pass themselves off as SUT experts once word starts getting around.

      At the same time, it needs to avoid the whole “cult of personality” thing I often blabber about, in that if it becomes people attending a certain trainer because of who he is, or who he was trained by- solely on those merits- or if it becomes a sort of fixed method or course that everybody teaches as the exact same thing, than I think that would take away from it in the end. It will be like the people that attend Appleseed over and over and think they know everything they need to, but in reality they’re in a training stalemate.

      I prefer going to trainers for their own unique teachings and opinions on a subject-
      Another example- if I wanted to learn to be a Sneaky Precision Marksman, and it’s a toss-up between the “go to” guy who’s been trained by ultrauberlegitsquirrelninjas but only runs a static course of fire at fixed ranges, or a not-so-well-known fellow who gets far fewer raving students through his course, but actually teaches you how to use your rifle “in the field” effectively, and is still a reputable fellow, guess which one I’m going to pick….?

      Long story short- it would suck if this all came down to a bunch of guys all teaching the same choreographed thing.

  17. Nothing to do with the discussion above. I am looking to get your thoughts on wearing body armor. There is a thought that a percentage of guys who got shot in Iraq and Afghanistan would not have been hit but for the fact they where moving to slow. The army decided in WWII that the ideal weight for a soldier to carry was 40lbs. I weigh an extra 120lbs with all my kit on. I get if your going in a building where you know bad guys are then yea. Anyway just looking for your thoughts.

    • thump, my take? Get some plates. The Iraq Interceptor shit was ridiculous overkill. Get a front and back plate. Forget the shoulder shit. The side shit. All the other jazz. If you can only get one, get a front plate. It’s not just the plates, it’s those big assed 1000 nylon vests that weigh a ton, too. Forget all that shit. The simplest, lightest plate carrier you can find, is all you need. Also, don’t get those steel plates. If it’s a steel plate, or nothing, go with nothing. Just my opinion. There are some things you want to save your pennies for, and get the best you can get. Armor is one of them. Just make sure, as Max has said, you got the wind in you to run the extra 4-7 pounds for a plate. Bullets do weird shit. Keeping them out of your vitals is worth the sweat. The great thing about plates is you can always ditch them, if you have to. Which is better than magically wishing them out of thin air, if you have to.

  18. Max wrote the following:

    “In terms of body armor/plates, its great to have., But that comes as a reward for fitness. First put on the required fighting load, and if you are fit enough to also wear plates, then do so. But if you put on plates, in particular those heavy-assed steel Patriot plates, and you are unable to move, then dump them. If you can’t move you can’t fight.”

    http://maxvelocitytactical.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-ingredients-for-your-victory.html

    • Been down this road myself being in less than awesome shape, and that is God’s own truth there.
      No sense wearing extra weight if you keel over 5 minutes into any serious activity- then what good did they do you? You’re now a casualty anyway…

  19. It’s been a problem with mobility, primarily in Afghanistan. Given the threat to ourselves, as discussed here, there is probably not a need for plates in the woods. Concealable body armor for urban work? You bet: I have a vest that also fits nicely under my plate carrier. I wear a war belt set up so that I can quickly add a soft vest and plate carrier if needed. I’m not sure I’d wear the stuff if I had to walk 30 miles out and back to hit an objective, but if I got trucked in close I’d sure put it on.

    If I were facing an indirect fire or IED threat you probably couldn’t peel it off me. My daughter and I are both satisfied customers of current armor in that regard.

    Soft body armor and helmets may not protect against direct rifle hits, but they do protect against fragments, ricochets, and (sometimes) secondary/tertiary penetrations. It’ll hurt and you may end up with a burn scar from an AK ricochet trapped in the panel of your soft armor, but it’s better than the handful of 9mm rounds he ended up with. ;)

  20. Yeah that’s kinda what I was thinking as well. Until you’re fit enough to maneuver in another 14 lbs of BA, better to stay light and mobile without it. Obviously a very personal choice here.

    No easy answers. I’m trying to keep my fighting load out as light as possible. QM and Chuck have squared me away on NV, but BA is still on the table.

    Based on my experience (old school “flack” jackets), you bake with all that shit on out in the extreme heat. I don’t know how those guys wore all that shit in Iraq and Af-stan.

  21. I am wearing ceramic. Always thought I would wear them until i had to scoot. That is where the layering system comes in. I have noticed in some of your pictures you don’t seem to be wearing them. And how does it fit in with your fighting belt. I wear my plates in a plate carrier with everything on it then if I have to dump it I still have my pistol and a few mags on my belt. along with a few survival items.

    • I did it that way because I had to. The minute I retired, the Interceptor went into the attic and the war belt and plate carrier came out. I run the belt low enough to clear the plate carrier, which I tend to wear high. I can just drop it over my head if I need to. I currently run it slick.

      I run 6 rifle mags on the belt and one pistol mag. IFAK, two kidney pouches with canteen cup and stove, Clif bars, heat tabs, PVS14 and helmet mount, compass and cut down signal panel. Lekku knife on trouser belt. Pockets stuffed with assorted stuff. Camelbak pack which rarely has anything in it but water.

      If I bother with a pistol, I usually use the Specops rig like Max ran. I usually don’t. Daily wear in G19 in appendix Kydex rig, 2 spare mags, KelTec P11 as a back up.

      Ruck contains 6 mags in issued bandolier. Patrol bag and cover, sleeping mat (I’m getting old.), waffle long johns (Old and cold.), spare socks, couple of GI 2 quart canteens, basha, and assorted 550 cord. Couple of MREs. It rides in my truck, so there’s also a uniform and boots stashed in there. My daily wear is hiking boots and work clothes when I’m not headed for a meeting, so I’m pretty well set regardless.

  22. Believe it or not you become acclimated it is not that bad and if you have plenty of water wet your shirt. As far as to wear or not to wear I think it is situational dependent.Of course PT PT. Just wondering how other people looked at it.

  23. I once wrote to Paul Howe asking why he runs three magazines on the back of his plate carrier and only two on the front. His response may be helpful here.

    “Thanks and if I have one mag in my gun and two on my front and I make a lethal hit every 3 rounds, that is about 27 people for three magazines. Routinely in ops, you take breaks behind cover and someone can hand you a mag off your back or take one if they really need it. If my 5 person team applies this, that is 135 people we killed with just the mags to our front….

    Also, strapping down your legs with excessive gear labors your pistons or leg muscles with every movement. Try walking through brush with stuff on your legs. It tears you down in no time. If I really wanted to move or make time, I would dump my plates and use it as load bearing vest.”

    • Well, that sounds like pure BS to me. Not for light infantry operations. What about suppressing fire? What about break contact drills What about if you can’t exactly locate the enemy? What about cover shooting? I could go on….

      • Again, not an expert opinion, but….
        I get the stuff on the back if you have a serious “team” thing going- I’ve seen plenty of guys “over there” doing it to totally discount it, and Howe is a pretty legit dude.

        What I don’t understand is the reasoning behind the sentence “…and someone can hand you a mag off your back or take one if they really need it….”

        Why don’t I just hand myself a mag off my front/side, and hand/toss a teammate one from said place if they need it?
        Not to be snarky, but I just don’t get the theory behind it…

        • I think Howe’s comments are valid for him, in a specific application. I wouldn’t copy it because he said it. I also think he’s wildly optimistic about hit ratios.

          That said, we’ve run flashbangs and 40MM on the back. Flashbangs aren’t something you need in a hurry and if you’re covering a door the guy behind you can reach them easily.

          The 40MM was on the back because we were running nine tubes in a 14 man advisory team. Since we worked in pairs for security, it was better load distribution for the gunner to load off his buddy’s back while preserving his own load for emergencies. The bearer then provided security while he fired the 203 or 79. That way the gunner didn’t have to carry dozens of rounds himself and could concentrate on his shooting.

      • BS? SFOD-D, not Ranger.

        What struck me and warranted the post were the thought process behind the placement of magazines and the notion that one might ditch plates to reduce weight rather than the whole plate carrier as was suggested above.

        • That’s as maybe, to your reason to post it. That’s fine. But what he told you, whether CAG or ranger, it’s BS either way. Not operationally sound. Go ask an SAS or paratrooper if they carry just two accessible mags…
          I’m interested to know why he put that out…..

          • I, too, was taught to have more magazines accessible. (With a plate carrier and lots of accessible magazines, getting low in prone is challenging.) I noted that he does it a different way. So I asked why he did it and he graciously answered the question, even though I have never attended one of his classes.

      • Three on back and two up front, that could be a counter to the trend of putting everything on the front of the vest which prevents going easily to prone, access to mags in prone for reloads, and potentially, the balance issue when everything is carried on the front of the body. Without more information, I really can’t speculate further.

        You are correct that it is not supportive to light infantry operations, but Paul Howe was not operating as squad member in a rifle platoon. I also think the lethality estimate is high at 3 rds to 1 fatality. That would be truly excellent shooting in a high pressure environment. I would not plan a combat load on that level of efficiency.

        I, too, prefer to hand myself a mag….

          • What you have written in this blog has sold me. We will be running battle belts in May. No plates. Perhaps in subsequent classes.

            Yet to be resolved is whether to include pistols or more rifle magazines.

  24. Diz brother you need to up the weight estimate on gear try doubling your previous estimate. As far as your discussion earlier on NODs don’t become to dependent on your technology. I can defeat your technology. As a matter of fact I will defeat it at the least opportune time for you and cause it to be an OH SHIT moment for you which will give me just the edge to win. just saying bro train for all situations. If I know the bad guys like to make hits oh lets say late at night or early morning I will disappear during that time. and raid him during day light hours. Just saying.

  25. I agree with Max sounds good on paper till you think about it. Show me where anyone has had that kind of kill ratio. I have been in the army for twenty years worked with them all from GI JOE the grunt to SF, seal teams and people with no names. No one and I mean no one only carried three mags cause they where such a bad ass they would kill someone every three rounds. I call bullshit. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I do agree with the leg stuff that’s just gay and for people who are not running and gunning. Oh I take that back i have seen people with three mags guards and FOBITS.

      • Sub, No. That’s only three mags ready to go and three more that might as well be on the moon. He’s expecting his friendlies to pull a mag out of his back at every call, which WILL NOT work unless his teammates have NO self-preservation instinct! Instead, Howe would quickly run out of his first 90 rounds, then he would get shot whilst fidgeting for his back mags (all while his friendlies are pinned down, struggling to reload, or dying too). Delta or not, that’s some FULL retard shit.

  26. Hmmm. The omens are mysterious and varied today. In regards to NV, there are those that have used this stuff extensively and swear by it. Then there are those that say they can defeat it and swear at it. Body armor, ceramic GTG, steel not so much. Mag load out, 3-6-9-12, what the fuck is in your plate carrier. Oy veh.

    This is truly like the three blind monks asked to describe the elephant. Each one gives a valid answer, but the trunk is gonna be different from the bung hole.

    My whole focus is on what we, as armed citizens, need to equip and train for. There are a lot of current and former guys out there with many experiences. Which T,T,&P’s are valid within this context, and which are not.

    For example, I think Paul Howe is an awesome dude. But his training was geared towards his experience, which was direct-action assault shit. First he taught LE, now he is more geared towards armed citizens. One thing I will say about him, he is a seeker, and is constantly looking for better ways of doing things. Perhaps he will move more towards green ops in the future.

    The question is, can we dispassionately look at this stuff and discuss what is valid, and what might not be. It’s not about how I ran in the bush, or anybody else. It’s how we may fight in the future, and how we get ready for that.

    • “By reading, you learn through others’ experiences, generally a better way to do business, especially in our line of work where the consequences of incompetence are so final for young men.
      …
      ‘Winging it’ and filling body bags as we sort out what works reminds us of the moral dictates and the cost of incompetence in our profession.” Gen. James Mattis, USMC (ret.)

      http://guerrillamerica.com/2013/12/the-importance-of-good-scholarship/

      Old men, too…

    • Diz wrote:

      “The question is, can we dispassionately look at this stuff and discuss what is valid, and what might not be. It’s not about how I ran in the bush, or anybody else. It’s how we may fight in the future, and how we get ready for that.”

      To that I award 1,000 internetz.

      I try not to talk about what I did in Iraq or Afghanistan or how we trained back in the day in Panama or Turkey or Germany or the myriad of other locations in which I’ve trained/operated because most, if not all of it, is irrelevant to what we, as armed Citizens, will face and how we will have to operate. For example, I won’t have the logistical capacity of the US Army behind me, nor will I have a “golden hour” for CASEVAC because there will be no Blackhawk with medics aboard coming in to take me or my boys back to the Battalion Aid Station or the CASH. I have deliberately tried not to be prescriptive about anything but have tried to stick to principles that I believe apply across the board. For specific technical questions I try to direct my answers as specifically as possible to how it might apply to ones local AO. However, in the end, it’s still just an informed guess.
      Those of us with extensive operational backgrounds too easily fall into the trap of saying “we did it this way back when I was in the sandbox (or fill in the blank foreign shit hole)” without thinking through just how much that experience applies to the armed Citizen and what he may face if/when the SHTF.

      These things have a tendency to degenerate into dick measuring contests and lose value quickly.

  27. Exactly. I’m trying to consolidate all the info I can, from old school woodland days, to current urban assaulter stuff. Analyze what our requirements will most likely be, and then look at the T,T,&P’s that most likely will fit the bill. It’s nice to find a site where others are open-minded enough to discuss this shit. This is usually the stage where I get denounced by the throne-lickers surrounding the deity.

    Here is an example of three likely scenarios: 1) Defense against home invasion, 2) Initiate E&E plan, and 3) security patrol of rural retreat.

    From my 5 paragraph order, what is my mission, how do I execute it (incl unit SOP), and what weapons, equipment, and supplies are needed. If we can draw from past experiences and tailor this stuff to our likely needs, then we’ll be cooking.

    • Regarding your last paragraph, I’ve tried in fits and starts to write a “Troop Leading Procedures for the Armed Citizen” article and haven’t gotten very far with it. It would cover the 8 TLPs and the basics of combat orders. Maybe someone else who is more diligent can crank something out before I get around to it. I’ll keep at it in case that never happens, but it’s something that’s hardly ever addressed so I feel compelled to write it.

      The old cliche that no plan survives first contact is true, but equally as true is that failing to plan is planning to fail.

      • Although, with minimum sarcasm, I sometimes wonder if people have actually read ‘Contact’. It covers the combat estimate and orders. Yes, it doesn’t follow US Army doctrine exactly, but it isn’t supposed to. This is a little bug bear of mine. I am writing for the citizen soldier. I don’t even read FM’s, at least not any more, and really it used to be the BritMil ‘Pams’ anyway (short for pamphlet – same idea).
        It’s not about the FMs. Yes, translate knowledge gained in service, but it’s not about US Army doctrine. It’s about passing on what is needed, amended ad necessary, for the armed civilian.
        BTW: that does not mean TLPs are not useful, they are, and I cover a version of them in Contact. Did you not read it because you already know the FMs and didn’t feel the need to? I think it takes away the need for what you were going to write, but that’s just my opinion.

        • Max,

          No, I haven’t read Contact yet, but that’s not because I think I know all the answers. Far from it. I haven’t read it because, a) I am a cheap bastard and, b) I am a procrastinator extraordinaire, so when I do finally buy it, it will probably take me a while to get to it.

          As for the article, if your book already covers mission planning (orders and some version of TLPs) that saves me quite a bit of time and effort, so it’s a win-win. Hopefully this little exchange will spur more people to purchase your book.

          I promise I’ll get to it eventually. (How many times has my wife heard that…)

        • To quote Charlie Beckwith, “You can’t be unconventional until you have been conventional.” The FM/Pamphlets are a good place to start. They are loaded with good information for individuals and fire team/squads. From there, we need to keep what fits our purpose and put aside the remainder.

          A couple of you have touched on the need to become a student of the craft. Without speaking for him, I think that is what Max is also getting to with his suggestion to read Contact. Perhaps as part of his curriculum, We could assist Max in putting together a reading list.

          I have not yet read Contact. I will try to get to it this weekend.

  28. As everyone can see lots of opinions out there. It is good to talk about think about try it. That is how we find what works and what does not work. I am always interested in how other people think and how they intend to use there gear or do something. And I have to say I would rather hand my self a mag or hand my buddy a mag than have some in a place I cant get to if needed.

  29. Here is another thought, let us collaborate in order to figure out a full load (combat and sustainment) that only weighs 55 pounds or less (because studies show that is maximum optimal weight).

    • Might be easier to figure out how to make cold fusion work. But a fun discussion nonetheless.

      I submit that in order to make it work you’ll need a system of caches and safe houses and effective auxiliary in place to make it work. Carrying more than three days of supply of Class 1 and Class V gets really heavy, really fast.

      • One of the solutions I was thinking about is the use of quality paratroop bicycles to carry two or three rucks/supply stuff. I was thinking that in a platoon sized unit march, two squads could provide security while the third carries necessary equipment on the bikes (this would be a footmarch, with bikes being rolled). Besides being able to transport heavy equipment and supply, you could improve the endurance of troops by rotating bike duty (with 2/3rds of your personnel marching light at any given time).

        like one of these. http://www.montaguebikes.com/paratrooper-folding-military-bike.html

          • I’ve always liked the dragoon concept. I think its time for bicycle mounted infantry to come back into modern consideration.

        • I don’t think bikes provide enough storage to justify the use. IMO, a small man-propelled wagon/rickshaw device would be better.

          • The carts are interesting, but how are they used, and what loads can they hold?

            A good bicycle can carry at least 300-400 pounds of equipment, presumably a light infantry unit would be carrying less than that at any given time. The VC and NVA used bicycles in this way to great effect.

          • @Saxon – They’re pushed and/or pulled and carry up to 300 pounds. From the looks of it, I think it’d be easier to maneuver one of these carts (or something similar)compared to a bicycle with 300-400lbs strapped on. How do you even push a bike with that much stuff on it? Or keep it balanced? I’m not saying it’s impossible, as people obviously do it. I’m just saying it must be damn hard work and the deer cart looks easier.

          • Who wants to run trials? Photos, AAR? Move same loads on bicycle and deer cart? JC of Mason Dixon Tactical, this is one of your things right? Want to step in?

          • Philip and Max, I was thinking, could one ride or use a bicycle AND tow one of these carts at the same time? I agree that some field trials are definitely called for!

        • My biggest gripe with carts and/or bicycles is the necessity of using trails. Trails get you ambushed (or bombed by B-52s [e.g., Ho Chi Minh Trail])

          I can see a use for these by auxiliary elements moving supplies covertly for prepositioning in caches and safe houses, but this doesn’t seem all that workable for our modular four man team combat organization. I can see using our teams/squads/multiples to provide security for other teams or auxiliary elements moving supplies in this fashion, but I’m not convinced the juice is worth the squeeze.

          • This is where field testing will help, perhaps one can use bikes and carts off of trails? Keep in mind that the Vikings used to ford boats over land.

  30. Max:

    You cover a lot of this in “Contact” but not everyone has seen it yet. Starting on P.147 the TLP’s and 5 para order are covered in depth. I’d like to expand on that and see different examples of TLP’s and 5 para orders from the guys here, for specific missions, such as defend against home invasion.

    Or starting on P.84 you cover bugging out. Again I’d like to see some actual E&E plans (well at least examples) to compare with.

    And finally conduct security patrol of a rural retreat. On P.243 you go in depth on solid field craft techniques. Again, I’d like to build on that with input from the gang. Such as AAR’s from the classes.

    In other words, amplify a lot of what’s in “Contact” with specific examples, experiences, and such.

      • Here’s my thought for the day: if you are a blog reader, and have not yet read any of my books, or attended training, do me a Christmas favor and drop 20 debtbux on a copy. Keeps my kids in food, keeps me blogging, keeps me running training.
        Thanks. Merry Christmas!

  31. Saxon what a great and fun idea. I would think that everyone would agree that there are basic items needed no matter what the mission. and I would guess that everyone has heard of the layering concept. With that in mind what do you or should you have on you when you get up in the morning and get dressed to start the day? If we are in SHFT. A pocket knife, gerber,pistola,two extra mags,pocket straw, small survival kit stiched on the in side of my belt,a small survival kit in my leg pocket,flash light map of the area you are in. This is all on before I go get my cup of joe.

  32. I’ve been going back and forth about saving for and buying a second rifle or investing in NV/IR. I think I’ve decided and been persuaded to get the NV/IR. Rawles has links for PVS-14’s, but can anyone recommend a good source for an IR laser, perhaps something with options (good, better, best)?

    • Another plus up for TNVC. With NV, it’s either the good stuff or nothing. Really it’s that different. TNVC has their house commercial brand that’s very reasonable in price (for Gen III) and some times better in quality than the mil-spec. Read up on their website for details. You will also find the other components you need to complete your system (helmets, shrouds, mounts, IR lasers). Truly one-stop shopping. This stuff is expensive, no doubt. But time and time again I am told how much of a game-changer it is.

  34. JRH Enterprises has the ITT Pinnacle autogated PVS14 for $2700. I bought mine there and couldnt be happier they also have good deals on DBAL’s

  35. 2 Questions:

    1. Do IR lasers give away your postision to observers with NV?

    2. When’s the forum coming? It’s hard to keep up with converstions in blogs. :)

    • 1. YES they do give away your position if they have NVG,, but so does the sound of incoming fire on their position..

      Night Vision is in my opinion a must!! RIFLE, Body Armor, NVG, Training yeah it costs real money. But we are talking survival. Is that seriously a area where you want to get cheap????

    • They can, especially with smoke, fog, or dust in the air. One technique is to tap the laser briefly on, then adjust based on the spot, reactivate, and fine tune. Good dry fire practice, too.