Virginia Anti-Paramilitary Law: Perspective & Rationality

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  • This topic has 25 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 3 days, 18 hours ago by Max. This post has been viewed 636 times
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    • #130641
      Max
      Keymaster

        People have been going nuts about the proposed anti-Paramilitary law in Virginia. They have been making all sorts of stuff up, including that it will apply to martial arts instructors. It lacks rationality and does not reflect well on pro-2A folks.

        So let’s take a look at this with a little bit of rationality and perspective. Firstly, let’s understand that there is already an anti-paramilitary law in Virginia, since 1987. This is the current Virginia Code:


        § 18.2-433.2. Paramilitary activity prohibited.

        A person shall be guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:

        1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

        2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.

        1987, c. 720.


        When I started MVT, I was aware of this code. This was one of the factors that led me to build the VTC in West Virginia. West Virginia has an anti-Militia law, but not an anti-paramilitary one.

        Note that the key part of this code is: “such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.” This is the absolute key point. It is also why in the disclaimer packet for attending training at MVT, you sign that you do not intend to utilize this training for unlawful or civil disorder purposes.

        Now, it seems absolutely fair to me that State Government does not want anyone training for the purposes of Civil Disorder. Would you want some dudes down the road training in firearms and explosives with the purpose of conducting terrorist activities? I don’t think so. So the key point here, and why you must take care to protect yourself, is not so much the law itself, but the political motivations behind the politicians and enforcement agencies. And we now have a situation where Virginia has gone blue in the legislature and we face very real threats to the 2A.

        The proposed law that everyone is getting their knickers in a twist over is this:


        Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

        1. That § 18.2-433.2 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows:

        § 18.2-433.2. Paramilitary activity prohibited; penalty.

        A person shall be is guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:

        1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

        2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

        3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.

        2. That the provisions of this act may result in a net increase in periods of imprisonment or commitment. Pursuant to § 30-19.1:4 of the Code of Virginia, the estimated amount of the necessary appropriation cannot be determined for periods of imprisonment in state adult correctional facilities; therefore, Chapter 854 of the Acts of Assembly of 2019 requires the Virginia Criminal Sentencing Commission to assign a minimum fiscal impact of $50,000. Pursuant to § 30-19.1:4 of the Code of Virginia, the estimated amount of the necessary appropriation cannot be determined for periods of commitment to the custody of the Department of Juvenile Justice.


        My assessment of this amendment to the current law is that it is aimed specifically at armed protest marches that may / will occur if / when some of the new anti-2A laws are passed in the 2020 session. Also, if you are not careful with your rhetoric, you may be prosecuted under any parts of this law. I have already seen talk of lobby day being an armed protest, which will likely be before this law is in effect. Anyone showing up armed at any of these sort of political protests will be at risk from this law. This applies to militia groups from both sides of the political divide, and we have already seen leftist groups showing up armed to protests. I think this new law is an attempt to head off this kind of armed protest to the proposed anti-2A laws in the 2020 session.

        Of course, depending on the political climate, we cannot expect this to be applied equally across the political spectrum. It should not be applied to private or commercial tactical or firearms training, but it may be if you become a target due to rhetoric. An intent for civil disorder needs to be shown, and a snitch could provide that. At least enough that your life is seriously impacted by law enforcement action, even if it is ultimately not proved in court.

        I believe that a greater threat is the push for sweeping anti-2A laws coming in the 2020 session. I can’t understand the drive of some to protest while openly armed. That isn’t what firearms are for, and by doing so you may will put yourself in a poor tactical situation should it kick off due to any number of potential causes.

        The current lawful push is for the creation of 2A Sanctuary Counties. It has spread like wildfire across Virginia and Culpeper (my County) should be voting tomorrow. This is all we can do as pro-2A citizens. It is by no means certain that these proposed laws will pass, although I do worry that watered down versions will pass for which we will ‘settle’ having felt we had ‘a win.’

        We already know that the 2A, which “shall not be infringed”, is already so. We are where we are at this time, much of the ground having been given up by those who went before us. We should not let it become infringed even more. We can continue to push with the groundswell of public opinion across Virginia. It is certainly a dilemma as to what will happen if Virginia passes ‘laws’ that are anti-2A, and thus anti-Constitutional, and thus in effect ‘no law’ – but still a clear and present threat to the freedom of Virginians who will become instant felons. That is more of a threat than this anti-paramilitary law, which already exists anyway in a slightly less virulent form. It is more of a worry that as the anti-paramilitary law passes, you are already a felon due to the rest of the sweeping anti-2A laws that are proposed.

        As a free American Citizen, you should not give up your fundamental right to self-defense, which is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. But neither should you go out and become a threat to other free citizens around you. If these non-laws are passed, and the State sends armed men to our homes to enforce them, even within 2A sanctuary counties, all we have left is the right and prerogative to self defense; to defend ourselves against this proposed tyranny.

      • #130668
        SeanT
        Keymaster

          I don’t think I have seen ( at least here) that participation in Lobby day is an ‘armed protest’. You wouldn’t go to Richmond on any other day unarmed, so this day is no different. The loonies that think it is helpful to sling an AR on their back and walk into the square are missing the point.

          • #130676
            Max
            Keymaster

              There has been talk of an armed protest nearby separate from any of the usual things such as CC into the building etc.

          • #130772
            Max
            Keymaster

              I received a pingback from Captains Journal where he copied some of this article and commented. Obviously he is on my mailing list. Both him and the two comments were made by low intelligence types who clearly did not read or understand what was written.

              Always remember, most people are stupid. That is what we are dealing with. Reading comprehension and rational thought are not the strongpoints of many. Hence the wingnut right alongside the loony left.

              • This reply was modified 5 days, 8 hours ago by Max.
            • #130779
              SeanT
              Keymaster

                There has been talk of an armed protest nearby separate from any of the usual things such as CC into the building etc.

                OK
                that would be a terrible idea.

              • #130787
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                Moderator

                  Always remember, most people are stupid. That is what we are dealing with. Reading comprehension and rational thought are not the strongpoints of many.

                  Always have someone battling to be the ultimate posterchild example of stupidity!

                • #130790
                  SeanT
                  Keymaster

                    Always remember, most people are stupid. That is what we are dealing with. Reading comprehension and rational thought are not the strongpoints of many.

                    Always have someone battling to be the ultimate posterchild example of stupidity!

                    If any random person you meet is of average intelligence, that means half of the rest of the people are stupider.

                  • #130810
                    DiznNC
                    Participant

                      I have always viewed the duality of this situation with some amusement, and concern. Our county was founded by “para-military” “militias”, rebelling against the Crown. We take great pride in that legacy; the founding fathers wrote about it at length; it’s supposed to be our heritage, and right, to rebel against any government that becomes over-reaching, and threatening our freedoms. Yet that SAME government wants to now say that doing any of that, against THEIR current regime, is illegal. Disperse, ye rebels!

                      So how the fuck is it, that it’s “OK” for the founding fathers to bear arms, rebel against the government, and become enshrined (well until recently) as national heroes. But now that the government is 1,000X worse, you should just turn in your musket, and not muster in the village green. Something has obviously changed, eh?

                      These new laws are obviously 180 out from the 2d Amendment. In fact, this is EXACTLY what it was supposed to prevent.

                      Practically speaking, the problem is what laws are on the books declaring what-not illegal, and what the government chooses to enforce. Obviously the irony of federal immigration law comes to mind, and the utter failure of government at all levels to enforce it. So… if you have massive non-compliance with these new laws, what will they do.

                      The kicker is public demonstrations against their policies. This seems to be what really worries the shit out of them. Which again is ironic, considering the utter failure to control or prosecute any of the SJW’s in their protests.

                      So, as Max alluded to, I would be watching to see what ANTIFA and their kind do, going forward. Be kinda funny to see them get jacked up by these new laws as an unintended consequence. On the other hand, if they get another free pass, well…

                    • #130816
                      RobRoy
                      Participant

                        What Diz says. The Left is paranoid about legitimacy, the Right wing the usual conservatives automatically grant it. We see governments lose legitimacy every year and in countries with little to no 2A anything those governments are toppled.

                        So in short if conservatives stopped playing school boy sitting on the edge of the chair in the principal’s office of “Mommy Liberal” much of the crap we endure would vanish in a puff of smoke.

                      • #130855
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          Many have misunderstood my comment about armed protest. It does not refer to Lobby Day in Richmond with open carry as currently practiced, but to actual armed marches or protests. Particularly once these new laws pass.

                        • #130868
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            Many have misunderstood…

                            They hear what they want to hear vice misunderstand.

                            Then they pretend to be prepared for the latest fad threat!

                            Always working themselves up into a flurry of “keyboard kammando” posts predicting the end is near! :wacko:

                            Is anyone here actually worried about what potential crimes they will be charged with should things go full tyranny!

                            When useful firearms are banned will I be concerned with so called paramilitary Laws, regardless of scope?

                          • #130890
                            SeanT
                            Keymaster

                              Many have misunderstood…

                              Is anyone here actually worried about what potential crimes they will be charged with should things go full tyranny!

                              When useful firearms are banned will I be concerned with so called paramilitary Laws, regardless of scope?

                              I am worried I may be caught up in the stupidity of others. Useful firearms will always be useful, that is my stance.

                            • #130891
                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                              Moderator

                                Useful firearms…

                                Don’t like using their assault term!

                                B-)

                                Too many get freaked out about tangents.

                                Why would you worry about training if all you banned weapons are hidden somewhere?

                                The most likely action by these goofballs! :yes:

                                Most of these idiots will be fine as long as the can rant online about the latest conspiracy while whining about doing something. Never train, but the best the can come up with is “let’s go do an armed protest!”

                                How much you wanna bet that the loudest ones will be safely at home while pushing the few nuts stupid enough to actually do it?

                              • #130915
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  Well well. Explains a lot. Herschel and commenters piling on in comments. Copied over at WRSA. Amazing. Accusing me of an emotional response and commenting about me with no knowledge.

                                  Yet, in all that, they still don’t have the reading comprehension to understand what was written. It’s what we are dealing with.

                                  This is another reason why you should take the posts by Joe about boogaloo, and taking a rational approach, seriously. Thee people out there are not your friends. They will rant online and hope someone else does the fighting they are urging you towards. This is a perfect example of these types.

                                  Some frankly amazing comments.

                                  And yet, for those coming here just to read this post, some of us in Virginia are taking the threats seriously, and acting at a local level. The group I am involved in at a leadership level in Culpeper County just succeeded in having Culpeper County affirmed as a Constitutional County. Not a sanctuary, but amended to Constitutional, which in my mind is preferable.

                                  We don’t rant online, and misunderstand rational posts due to reading comprehension and bias issues. We act in ways that are constructive.

                                  The idea of these commenters that I somehow don’t see the threat due to “British” is utterly ludicrous. It would be insulting if it did not show how dumb these guys really are. And they want me to be polite and not tell them they are dumb? Snowflakes.

                                  Additional Deliberations On Virginia Anti-Paramilitary Law

                                  • This reply was modified 4 days, 15 hours ago by Max.
                                  • This reply was modified 4 days, 14 hours ago by Max.
                                  • This reply was modified 4 days, 14 hours ago by Max.
                                • #130923
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster
                                  • #130969
                                    Max
                                    Keymaster

                                      Well, also hilarious, as Herschel takes aim at another rational commenter:

                                      More Additional Deliberations On Virginia Anti-Paramilitary Law

                                      I don’t think I ever said that this new law is a good thing, and I specifically alluded to it being used in a political fashion. Probably around the same time all guns are banned in VA anyway. Good luck training when your guns are hidden in a cache. Be rational and think! Some of us in Virginia are working in a lawful fashion to prevent this. See the last paragraph of my article.

                                      Also, the linked article that he was critiquing is kind of funny, with some good descriptive language. “Threepdawgs” is pretty good, and a decent description of the sky is falling ranters who lack rational thought. Linked below:

                                      All these people wanting you to set your hair on fire and run in circles with them about ZOMG THE DEEP STATE IS TRYING TO OUTLAW GUN TRAINING IN VIRGINIA haven’t even read the existing law. Consider that fact when deciding how much credence to give to their mouth-noises.Calm your tits, Herschel, and do thirty seconds of research before running to your keyboard for a change.

                                    • #130974
                                      Max
                                      Keymaster

                                        So, who wants the Big Igloo to kick off? Perhaps all respond to IG posts from a guy in NY who says he is getting red flagged over a 30 round mag, but it turns out to be a lie?

                                        How about getting whipped up into a frenzy by these ‘threepdawg’ incitement blogs. How about taking your unfit and untrained body to meet up with a bunch of randoms who you have never worked with before, to get involved in a shooting battle with cops? Hell, I have HEAT 1 tomorrow, and I guarentee there will be new students there who’s rifles don’t run, for all the reasons 1SG keeps posting.

                                        Hell, the thought of the boogaloo is terrible. Even the fratricide. Nightmare. Best option would be to low crawl the fuck outta the kill zone! Bunch of flat range boogbois who have never worked as a team, zero target discrimination, versus cops who kill more bystanders than what they are aiming at. Wow.

                                        See the last paragraph of my post above. No one can say that tyranny is not coming for us. Maybe Virginia will be ground zero after all. But don’t be the one to start anything. Self defense. Be trained. Operate with people who are trained and who you can trust. Use all means possible to avoid the need to try and ride the tiger in the boogaloo. No one rational wants it, despite your frustrations. Yes, we want governemnt to back the fuck off, but we want to raise our children in peace and freedom.

                                        I see this latest post by Herscel, cheerled over at WRSA, and it gives me more data points about why they hate MVT. We are not agitating over here. We are rational. We do not agree with their ‘threepdawg’ sky is falling irrationality. Neither are we blindfolded. We can see what is coming, and we are doing what we can to prevent it.

                                      • #130982
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          Best option would be to low crawl the fuck outta the kill zone!

                                          I thought this many times when considering the insanity these untrained fools would bring!

                                          No one rational wants it, despite your frustrations. Yes, we want governemnt to back the fuck off, but we want to raise our children in peace and freedom.

                                          Exactly, we train and prepare, but have no illusions to the tragic results a fight will bring.

                                          While we don’t want it, we will not shy away from fighting if left with only being a slave.

                                          Angry, fearful, and agitated brings poor decisions at time when critical thinking is needed more than ever!

                                          We don’t fearmonger as it does not nothing, but chase rational people from our cause.

                                          We need these rational people, not a den of lunatics!

                                        • #130989
                                          DiznNC
                                          Participant

                                            You know Max, what you’ve been saying is the most rational, reasoned response to all this I have seen. I am truly impressed, although all the other negativity is to be expected.

                                            The calm, reasoned approach has all been forgotten in this day and age. Neither side wants to hear it. Or rather the extremists on either side.

                                            That’s pretty funny, the comment about all these fat old fuckers wanting to be John Locke, and write the pamphlets that fire up the masses. But not be on the village green for the festivities. Instead of too many chefs in the kitchen, I suppose we have too many scribes in the ranks.

                                            No sane person would want to bring death and destruction to their world, just to prove a point; but if it’s thrust upon us, then we need to be ready to respond. This is the only sane, rational response you could have. But not a lot of that going around these days.

                                            • #130991
                                              Max
                                              Keymaster

                                                Thanks Diz. Did you ever get my message about the patrol pack?

                                            • #130992
                                              Max
                                              Keymaster

                                                We are facing irrational agitators. People commenting about VA when they do not live here and are not involved in what we are doing in response, which is acting as best we can within the law.

                                                Anyone who is familaor with my writings knows absolutely my opinions on Liberty, Tyranny etc. I’m not even going tonget into the whole “no law” if it’s unconstitutional thing. We are living in the situation we are.

                                                People are very quick to whip up others by agitation on these blogs into what would in effect be armed insurrection. Not only do these people probably not live on Virginia, but they are also not likely to be fighters. Some of us (you here) are trained to fight. But we are not in units. We are mostly individuals.

                                                Fighting may happen at some point, depending what comes down the pike. But as a last resort and in defense of ourselves. This could never be contemplated lightly. We may all be felons next July. We may be forced to defend ourselves against armed men sent against us. I sincerely hope not.

                                                Stay away from the rhetoric of fools.

                                              • #131014
                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                Moderator

                                                  Stay away from the rhetoric of fools.

                                                  This can’t be emphasised enough!

                                                  We have enough legitimate problems to deal with to allow ourselves to be manipulated by those with hidden agendas.

                                                • #131022
                                                  Sitting Duck
                                                  Participant

                                                    Stay away from the rhetoric of fools.

                                                    This can’t be emphasised enough!

                                                    Staying away isn’t going to be enough. Make a plan on how to deal with the loudmouths.

                                                    In NY the belligerent got rounded up and found with contraband. They were made examples of and really hurt legitimate efforts. (Ammoland had an article recently regarding the “scaring” of people who we need support from.)

                                                    Something that does appear to be working is getting Air Rifle and trap shooting into schools. Teachers Union has so far placed their agenda of “more $ for teachers” over “anti gun” and has blocked efforts on the state legislator to end school air rifle. It’s not much but getting more youth involved is something that should have been done decades ago.

                                                  • #131036
                                                    DiznNC
                                                    Participant

                                                      Amen from the back of the church.

                                                      Yes I did reply about the packs. I am working on something you might like.

                                                      • #131057
                                                        Max
                                                        Keymaster

                                                          I replied!

                                                      • #131050
                                                        veritas556
                                                        Participant

                                                          All I can say, living outside of VA, is the irony of a law like this coming out of a state with the motto, “Sic Semper Tyrannis” is awfully rich!

                                                          I would also not underestimate the willingness of politicians to do very bad things under the color of “law”. Re: Nuremburg Laws (1935). Most Germans never really thought such laws would be used as the basis to, oh I don’t know… murder millions of people.

                                                          History may not repeat but it sure does rhyme, goes the saying…

                                                          We may end up giving them so many inches of rope it’s already cinched around our neck by the time we realize it.

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