NOD’s and IR Laser Use

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    • #121696
      First Sergeant
      Moderator

        In the past couple of months I have started to see stuff about passive NOD’s use. That is the use of NOD’s looking through a RDS and not using IR lasers.

        I have tried to track down where this all came from. Some of it is from companies trying to sell stuff and others wanting people to believe they are teaching something new.

        To try and nail it down I had a conversation with someone who would know. He is currently assigned to a unit that does special things and is OCONUS as we speak. He has several years doing what he does in some very unfriendly places. I asked him if this was the new thing that is being taught. He had no clue what I was talking about so I had to explain it to him. He stated that at no time do they train to use their rifles and NOD’s in that way. He also stated that they had a train up before this trip that involved guys from the very tip of the spear and that this was never discussed. They still use IR lasers in the same way that we teach at MVT, the IR laser comes on momentarily when you engage and then is immediately turned off after engaging the target.

        I don’t know every single thing being trained by every single unit out there. There may be some very specific instance where this is being utilized but as of right now it is not the norm.

        It maybe another one of those things like wearing blood type patches came from.

        FILO
        Signal Out, Can You Identify
        Je ne regrette rien
        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

      • #121704
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          Some of it is from companies trying to sell stuff and others wanting people to believe they are teaching something new.

          Above gets my vote.

          Though I remember when I first got issued PVS-5’s we played around with adjusting focus of one tube to see pistol sights, leaving one to normal focus. Sort of worked if you didn’t mind the headaches it brought on. :yes:

          I bet some are trying to be “sneaky” and avoid detection. ;-)

          With newer generation NODS beginning to incorporate various HUD information and overlays. I suspect eventually there will be an aiming reticle superimposed that will be passive.

          • #121708
            First Sergeant
            Moderator

              PVS-5’s, ugh, like wearing a brick on your face.

              As technology advances things will definitely change. Some of it is coming from all this talk about a peer to peer fight. If that ever happens there is a whole lot of other things that are going to have to be addressed long before IR lasers are an issue. Digging fighting positions is close to the top on that list.

              Along with that trying to be “sneaky” and avoid detection, you better have the rest of your field craft dialed in or it wont make a damn bit of difference.

              I am seeing guys talk about this that have never worn a uniform nor never heard a shot fired in anger. They just spent a shitload of money to get dual WP NOD’s and the latest laser and now they are talking about this whole passive use of NOD’s thing like we are the stupid ones because we haven’t thought about it before. What they don’t realize is that there a bunch of us who remember what it was like when we first got PVS-7B’s and didn’t have lasers. Or before 7B’s when we really didn’t have anything worth using except when static, PVS-5’s and PVS-4’s.

              I know TTP’s change. I watched them change in real time while deployed but some of this stuff just makes me shake my head and wonder “WTF”.

              FILO
              Signal Out, Can You Identify
              Je ne regrette rien
              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

          • #121705
            Max
            Keymaster

              Thank you for posting. As we discussed, we had both seen evidence of this creeping in. Very high mounts for NV capable RDS with the idea of getting your PVS behind it. All in the idea of it being ‘passive.’

              Just to clarify, this is not about mounting the PVS to the rifle, which is a separate thing. MVT always recommends to train how the professionals do, and utilize head mounted NV combined with an IR aiming laser. This new trend is to try and remove the need for the IR laser by shinegaling your head and PVS behind the RDS.

              Well, for all you who want to be super secret and have been sold on this idea. The IR should only come on as you fire. Secondly, as soon as you fire you create muzzle flash. That just took your passive super secret plans away.

              People who don’t live fire, or who have no actual experience, always forget about muzzle flash. It’s going to bring hell down upon you. This combined with people feeling bullet proof in the darkness and NV making it hard to go prone, means you can easily lose the advantage NV gives you over an aggressive enemy who will return fire at muzzle flash. This is why the position must be suppressed. And movement is life. That includes those in SBF. Back to the basics of F&M. Fancy thaat! B-)

              • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by Max.
            • #121714
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                Digging fighting positions is close to the top on that list.

                Maybe a job for those robot pack horse things! :yes:

                I have to admit to feeling spoiled being able to have Afghan locals fill and stack sandbags. ;-)

                …you better have the rest of your field craft dialed in or it wont make a damn bit of difference.

                That’s so over looked, I still think many never take the time to use their NODS to embrace the enviroment. Learn how the shadows fall, how lack of color perception aids in concealment, to mention just a few points.

                …shake my head and wonder

                B-)

                This combined with people feeling bullet proof in the darkness…

                My favorite are the ones that immediately think they donned an invisibility cloak and wander about like they are the only people on planet with NODS.

                • #121826
                  First Sergeant
                  Moderator

                    Digging fighting positions is close to the top on that list.

                    Maybe a job for those robot pack horse things! :yes:

                    I have to admit to feeling spoiled being able to have Afghan locals fill and stack sandbags. ;-)

                    I was always happy for a SEE to come along.

                    FILO
                    Signal Out, Can You Identify
                    Je ne regrette rien
                    In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                • #121716
                  dave37
                  Participant

                    This thread is gold. The whole “passive night vision only because near peer enemy threat” made sense to me until now. Thank you, 1SG, Joe, and Max.

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                    • #121827
                      First Sergeant
                      Moderator

                        This thread is gold. The whole “passive night vision only because near peer enemy threat” made sense to me until now. Thank you, 1SG, Joe, and Max.

                        Can you explain what you mean about it making sense?

                        FILO
                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                        Je ne regrette rien
                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                    • #121747
                      Robert Henry
                      Participant

                        I have a good idea where the “push” for this comes from and like 1st Sgt. said it’s definitely a marketing thing to sell dual tube units from a certain place out there.

                        30 years ago when we learned to shoot at night from some old SF Vietnam vets, they taught us to shoot with iron sights (no illumination, etc) at little 2″ Cyalume “fishing” lightsticks. One of the guys said “what’s the lightstick for?” They answered- “cause sometimes at night that’s all you have to shoot at.”

                        Even with a suppressor there is still some flash, so the whole “be passive” thing isn’t really going to do much as you will have SOME sort of signature.

                        What’s ironic is the same place pushing the go passive crap loves to push using high amounts of IR illumination- go figure…. People need to learn to read between the lines, that’s marketing to sell illuminators just like the other crap sells high mounts and dual tube sets like 1st Sgt mentioned.

                        Good training and SOP regarding use of the IR laser is all that’s needed as Max and 1st Sgt have stated.

                        FWIW, if anyone doubts, come to MVTs Night Ops class, I’d be happy to loan you an AR with high mounted Aimpoint to try- can almost guarantee you’ll end up using the IR laser instead! :good:

                        www.jrhenterprises.com

                        Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
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                        • #121822
                          First Sergeant
                          Moderator

                            You and I both know where it is coming from, but we’ll leave it at that.

                            FILO
                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                            Je ne regrette rien
                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                        • #121823
                          hellokitty
                          Participant

                            Everyone posting on this thread will think this is obvious but newer folks may not realize. THE most important resource you have, including equipment and weapons, is your knowledge of and ability to perform small unit tactics. If someone spends $1,000s on NODs, then they believe that there is a possibility of some form of boogaloo in future. If they can’t perform SUT at a basic level, they are gonna die. Doesn’t matter what kinda cool equipment they have. Whether they have IR lasers or suppressors. It don’t matter.

                            Speaking of peer to peer conflict, I am pretty sure tracers are no different that using IR lasers. Civilians don’t usually use tracers but gov mil do.

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