AAR #1: CRCD 14/15 Dec 2013 – F
This was my 2nd trip to Max’s range.
All previous comments listed in my previous AAR still apply http://maxvelocitytactical.
My previous review covers the tactical curriculum with some detail and for those mostly interested in a critique of the training content please see my previous AAR liked above. I had some questions about gear in this weather (comments in THIS POST), so I will try to cover that in more depth here than I would have otherwise.
After I arrived in town I met up with my buddy at the Koolwink Motel and went to eat. Low and behold we ran into Max in the restaurant and had an enjoyable and stimulating conversation with him. It was a nice chance for us to chat with him a bit especially for my buddy who had never met him before. It would have been more but I totally overate the the Italian restaurant because I was hungry and the food was great and plentiful. This would later turn out to be a real detriment as I didnt feel too hot after so much food and took until 1 or 2 to fall asleep.
But in the morning I had no problem getting up since I was excited to get started. : )
I wore a bit of a jerry rigged setup:
– A Army issue type MOLLE vest , which worked great, comfortable and well balanced
– Basic military boots which had not been treated for waterproofing and predictably got very cold and wet.
– 5.11 pants with long johns under them which worked well except got wet.
– I had bought a British surplus over-whites set but the vinyl pants were so slippery I knew the knee pads would just slip off so I skipped them (they later slipped anyway). But i wore the over-whites top
– Under the over-whites top I wore a US military fleece jacket which despite its thinness provided decent warmth when paired with a regular t shirt and a long sleeve t shirt.
– I had some raingear pants at home which I did not bring as I had decided to dress as light as possible with this weather and not freeze in the interest of mobility. I was willing to accept the risk of wet pants from lieing in the snow during the prone.. Everything is a trade-off.
Despite my gear being no where near perfect I accomplished my goal of not freezing while not limiting my mobility with excess clothes.
There was a bit of a minor snow storm the night before class in the WV mountains.
As I had feared the night before …on the morning of Saturday our little convoy had some problems getting up the trail…. the cliff notes version is, that after some wheel spinning and a little time wasting we cross-loaded ourselves into the most capable 4×4’s and finally made it to the assembly area from whence Max took us up to the training area in the Ranger ATV.
Sitting in those chairs for max’s Tactics white board presentation BTW got chilly real quick but I wrapped myself into a nice comfy poncho liner and that helped a lot. Others also had blankets or in many cases simply wore warmer clothes.
My Army/USMC issue type knee pads were a bit of a disappointment to me. They kept falling down on my leg after a couple of dashes into cover. I think the fact I had to dash into snow getting them wet didnt help the friction of the straps and thats why they came loose so easily.
My electronic earmuffs were fantastic, even though they were cheap..one side stopped working halfway thru day one as the water from the snow seemed to damage it but it partially came back on day 2…the batteries were getting weak by the end of day 2 but they still worked enough yo be useful. In a training environment where you must protect your ears but still hear your instructors these simply where a godsend and I think made me a better student.
On gear: Both myself and my buddy found that you can jerryrig a practical set-up from different surplus layers w/o spending high dollars. Were we a little less comfortable in this weather than those with high end gortex hunting boots/jackets? Yes… but it was very manageable, didn’t present any real problems and did not impact our performance..
Speaking of the weather. It was simply a gorgeous winter wonderland!! The pics don’t do it justice… real thick snowflakes were coming down during most of day one making our targets snowy and harder to see.. realistic just how I like it .
The Day 1 lanes were also noticeably improved from my previous attendance which had been a mere month before.
Another gear related positive was that my SIG 516 which had never shot TulAmmo worked just fine with it…Ihad felt that I incurred some risk to bring a rifle/ammo combination I had never tried prior to this trip… so I had a spare halfcase of M193 and a spare rifle to make sure I could run a gun on the course,.. but it turns out they were not needed. : )
The Snow added a lot of adventure to our lanes exercises as well as an atmosphere that was not just cold but a bit surreal. It was also a lot easier to fall , especially when you tried to sprint combat speed between positions, this I tried in the beginning but after my first 2 falls I stopped ;)
On Day 2
We had promised Max that we would meet a little early and crossload into the most winter competent vehicles right away and this we did on Sunday morning, which made our drive to the assembly area as speedy, as it was uneventful.
On Sunday we went through Lane 2 for the more advanced/demanding training, and started with the “Jungle Walk”, ahem I mean the “Arctic Walk”. This lane which we used for individual, buddy pair, fireteam and finally squad level drills went up a looong hill. So by the time you got to react to your pop up targets your blood was pumping and your breath was very labored no matter what shape you were in.
And that’s the idea. ;)
One of the small but best features of Max’s training as compared to mainstream military training is , that he will brief you a realistic scenario which will inform how you react and he explained WHY in this situation you would use “break contact drill” vs ” assault” etc etc.
When many many years ago I received Infantry training as private it was like “Ok guys we will now practice bounding overwatch” and we would do it but I could not have explained why as compared to a wedge formation etc.
Max realizes, that unlike an Army/UCMC private who (hopefully) will have skilled Platoon Sergeants and Platoon Leaders make his tactical decisions for him, a SHTF armed civilian needs to make all his own tactical calls at the fireteam level and below.
So he makes sure students understand what drill to use in which kind of Patrol etc.. People play lipservice to ‘METT-TC” but not everyone fully understands what it really means… and Max makes weaves this principle into his training to ensure his students understand the why and when of a given drill so they use the correct situationally driven response when the situation arises.
Respectfully,
F
Hi F,
Read your AAR! It is great very informative and enthusiastic! Thanks for taking the time.
What did you notice as the chief benefit to training a second time in the CRCD course? For me, with no prior military training, it is finding the time to think about where other people are, see what they are doing and do I need to change what I’m doing to better augment the team. It is, will be, a work in progress!
I have a couple of equipment questions.
What are your plans for footwear? Just SnoSeal your boots? I have SnoSealed mine, but with the nylon panels its benefit is limited. I have taken to using plastic bags over my socks to limit the slosh factor. I wonder, does anyone sell a thin neoprene sock? Like a wetsuit for your feet. I have bunny boots but I am a bitt clumsy in them.
What did you use for gloves and hat? Were they satisfactory?
Would your kneepads have functioned more reliably if you wore them under the over-white pants? BTW, where did you purchase the over-white set?
With the Patrol course coming up JAN, will you and your buddy be coming? And, any equipment insights for the overnight, assuming similar weather?
Thanks,
Joe
Joe,
I think the most benefit going for the second time is just the practice.
Technically you don’t learn anything new but in reality you do since you are more comfortable with the subject the 2nd time around which leaves more room for deeper grasping of what you are doing..
For footwear next time I would just slather the heck out of them with shoe polish . this will help make them snow resistant (to a point).
Would still bring plenty of spare pairs for socks.
Maybe change socks twice a day and use footpowder or transition to the different boot like the LL Beans hunting boot thats rubber for the 1st inch and a half of so..
The gloves I used Where the Mechanix tactical series.
They got wet but in a less wet environment would have been perfectly ok, even so, while a little light they were acceptable in this weather (albeit barely) and much better than nothing.
As for kneepads I did use them completely w/o the overwhite pants and they still slid.. Not sure how to secure them.. have velcro sewn into the pants perhaps??
Maybe in a dry environment they would have been ok?
In the end I didn’t bother wearing them since they just dropped to my ankles even at times.
The “sling” always working itself loose.
For the Patrol class I am still on the fence I have a huge loss of damage to my house that I must fix at my own expense, for several grand , which will wipe me out for the next 2-3 months, so not sure if I will make it. My buddy is also very unsure…even tho he loved the class.
Its still possible i might make it, but no promises : )
As for over night gear in this weather I have a couple of insights as I once stayed 100 miles north of the arctic circle in winter for a couple of weeks.
Make sure you have one of those rubber/foam insulating mats to put under your sleeping bag. they are critical. Also bring a couple of large thick garbage bags one of which u can cut and lay under the foam mattress to make sure your mattress and sleeping bag don’t get wet.. then with a decent sleeping bag it can be quite comfy even when its cold out.
if the snow is thick enough consider making a snowcave.
Cheers,
F : )
Joe, just wanted to let you knoww I answered but it posted the general comment que rather than as a reply to you. : )
Sounds like you learned a lot. Thanks for the write up.
Glad the Tul Ammo worked out for you. I swore off it when my AR ripped two feed lips right off the cases. Had to whip out the cleaning rod and punch them out.
Thanks for the review. I think a lot of people get too caught up in gear selection and purchases, so it’s good to read that you were successful while avoiding the “Gucci Gear” syndrome.
I’m really looking forward to attending a class with Max. Soon…
Great AAR F, thanks again. This brings up a very good point, which is good, solid “old school” gear, vs new, modern, “Gucci” gear. First of all, I am returning to old school woodland (and DPM) camo. It’s not near as bad as everyone has been saying. It is also cheap, and available. Next up, gortex. After wearing this stuff for a long time, I am of the opinion that it just doesn’t give you any advantage over a tight-knit “windproof” smock, or old M-65 for that matter. I still wear a mix of synthetic first layer stuff, but am also looking at wool again, especially for insulating layers. If you look at what Max is running, you have a perfect example of what I’m talking about. He sports a Norwegian sweater with a windproof smock. Wool and tight-knit cotton.
I was at a gunshow recently. I saw woodland ponchos and liners for $20.00. Gortex bivy sacks for $35.00. Wool glove liners for $4.00. Woodland pattern med ALICE packs for $35.00.
If you look online you will find all manner of SDS woodland pattern pouches, 1 and 2 qt canteens, Molle 2 and CFP-90 rucks, not to mention Artkisusa smocks and webbing, as well as other DPM items.
You can get yourself (and maybe others) out-fitted with a complete set of clothing and equipment for literally a fraction of the cost of the “modern” stuff.
Woodland, wool, and cotton. For your consideration. It’s not near as bad as everyone says.
Agreed.
Old school stuff is cheap and serviceable.
The more money you save on gear the more you can spend on ammo and classes : )
I posted some tips on sleeping gear for the patrol class on the Combat Patrol page under tactical training in the menu bar:
Sleeping gear: for the patrol base night, you will be sleeping tactically on the ground. This means you will need appropriate sleeping equipment to sleep on the ground. This is the gear that you should bring:
Sleeping bag. Appropriate to the season. Don’t overdo it – you will be clothed inside it. For winter, I use an olive color Snugpak Sleeper Lite. Job done. Summer I use a Snugpak jungle sleeping bag.
Gore-Tex Bivvy Bag: you can pick up the woodland military surplus ones for cheap.
Shelter Tarp. A Nylon (not polypro nastiness) military style subdued color shelter tarp. Military ponchos are ideal. If the MVT Shield is available by then, use one of those.
Thermal sleeping mat. A 3/4 length thermarest or knock-off is ideal. The ones that slightly inflate and pack down small. Without this your heat will leech off into the ground, big time.
There was also a post in the patrol class a little while back with some tips: https://maxvelocitytactical.com/2013/10/patrol-class-gear-questions/
“…First of all, I am returning to old school woodland (and DPM) camo. It’s not near as bad as everyone has been saying….”
Who said that? Show me to them that they may be smited!
What’s “bad” is that modern gear is often not available in such patterns.
In all seriousness, I totally agree- for a predominantly green/forest environment I fail to understand why there was even a move away from woodland. I guess we just *had* to have a new camo pattern? MC isn’t bad, but if you look at pictures of folks in the woods- even here back in some of the older AARs- the guys in MC and Tan are much more visible in the woods than the folks running woodland/DPM or just straight OD.
Which sucks because being a civi and trying to stick to basic/plain colors, some companies are discontinuing OD/RG in favor CB/MC only. I suppose it could be touched up with some krylon if it ever bugs me enough. lol
One school of thought is that woodland contains Target Indicator Black and is therefore at a disadvantage over paterns not containing TIB.
“That is why it is so important to camo one’s rifle – to break up its shape. So – camo EVERYTHING. Note: BLACK is NOT a camo color. Camo colors are primarily greens, tans and greys. Just look at your AO – and you’ll see what colors are predominant.”
http://tireironscorner.blogspot.com/2010/04/patrolling-101-part-1-target-indicators.html
I checked the blog you are referring to but it seems to me a dot of black(ish) is not really an indicator.
Its when your entire outfit is black is a problem..
For example even in our winter wonderland there are many black(ish) spots in nature, bark, shadows, wet mud, shadows etc.. and a few black spots in your outfit may even help to break up your silhouette.
Yup. I have a bunch of my old woodland BDUs so it just made economic sense to stick with a mostly OD/woodland scheme for my kit. Plus, as you said, you can still find woodland MOLLE II gear for pretty cheap. As JustAR points out it’s finding new kit in woodland that’s a challenge. For ammo pouches and such, EMDOM makes some pretty good stuff that’s worth checking out. The old style GEN 1 ECWCS stuff sucks, however, so finding newer light weight stuff without spending and arm and a leg is a challenge.