Two ‘Tactical’ Worlds
I recently posted about ‘Normalcy Bias‘ and put a copy of the post up on the MVT Forum. As usual, Diz hit the nail on the head with a comment:
I’ve been thinking about this all morning. I really think you need to make the distinction between “conventional” crime or violence, and “unconventional” crime or violence. Because when we’re discussing these things it’s almost as if we’re talking about two different subjects. The guy’s whose main focus is “conventional” crime, i.e. street crime, view the threat as purely conventional, garden variety, every day violence. From this point of view, responding to violence with impact, edged weapons or handguns is probably the optimum choice. And the stats are certainly there, saying if you do use a handgun, you probably won’t need more than one mag.
On the other hand, there is the guy whose main focus is on the “unconventional” violence, which stems from the deteriorating political/economic situation, who views the threat as something beyond “conventional” crime, getting into the civil unrest, terrorism, and insurgency.
So when these two guys are posting about being prepared to meet violence, they’re really talking about two different kinds or levels of conflict. Hence the posting about chest rigs being unnecessary for actual self defense. From a conventional POV, that’s probably correct; if we’re talking about you being assaulted somehow on the street, then you will likely as not be fighting with EDC gear. BUT, if we’re talking from an unconventional POV, as in civil unrest, in Ferguson right now, or rioting/looting coming to your neighborhood, or even terrorist attacks, you may be looking at something akin to a running gun battle, which might closely resemble a firefight in Falujah. So to say that a rifle and chest rig, with at least 6 re-loads is not necessary is fracking retarded.
I guess the question I would be asking these guys is if they see a very low likelihood of using the rifle, and a chest rig to feed it, then why are you training with it? It would seem to me you’d be better off doing H2H and handgun training for your perceived real world application. If you do use a long gun, a shotgun would fit your application better than a battle rifle. This tells me these guys are just gaming it for a hobby. Why should we even be listening to them?
Followed up by G.W.N.S.:
I believe that many if not most of these people do not believe it could ever get to this “unconventional Threat.”
From my point of view it is about living in denial!
Regardless of reasons I think we have to except the point that a large percentage will never believe that such training and gear will ever be necessary until they are confronted with such a situation.
So there we have it.
Square range ‘tacticool’ style:
Square range MVT style:
I think Diz hits the nail on the head. Much of the ‘tacticool’ style training is firmly rooted in Law Enforcement training, and much of the fan-boy stuff follows that route towards ‘SWAT-style’ CQB, and perhaps even goes as far as ‘SOF-Tier-1-style’ fan-boy training. That also has roots in ‘mil-sim-air-soft’ and is effectively the same thing: one is playing with air soft, the other slightly more serious with live rounds.
It is amusing that these types will talk about combat training, such as MVT, as ‘tactical band camp’ but really they themselves are just playing. Examples of this type of comment can be found in the ‘Normalcy Bias‘ post. It is the trainers of such students, who these students avidly follow, who will often state that they will not train civilians in basic tactics such as fire & movement “because civilians don’t need to know that.” How ironic. It is very prevalent – they will take your money for some sort of tacticool BS class, that can’t really be teaching you anything real, because they don’t believe you have a right to know the ‘real.’ Go figure….
MVT will teach what the others won’t teach you, because it’s “too dangerous” for civilians to know. We go the extra mile to make our students truly dangerous to their enemies. Gunfighters, not gun drivers. Simple.
Now, not all of this is BS. Some guys are doing serious close quarters and personal defense type training that has real application in self-defense situations in current times. Concealed handgun, hand to hand training and such are legitimate use of your training time. I have talked before about the need of such skills both now, and as the ‘gray collapse’ progresses. The problem appears to be when these types don’t acknowledge the very real possibility of societal slide/collapse (watch the news?) and are stuck in a form of denial / normalcy bias. These are the types who sneer at those of us who are interested in being prepared for uncertain times, and thus wish to conduct real tactical training. I don’t know if it is possible to wake these types up. It seems impossible to wake up a lazy and apathetic nation, including many so-called ‘Patriots’ who refuse to even put down the cheeseburger, let alone do some PT, or combat training. Hard times are ahead kids!
Diz commented again on the blog:
I would like to address this chest rig thing because I have personally run into this many times.
Beyond normalcy bias I also find these younger generations are insufferably arrogant. For some reason, especially since the internet, any f**kwad can read about something and become an instant expert about it, online.
Everyone has an opinion, which they will tell you all about, regardless of where it’s coming from. Then you get a group of them together, that agree, like this guy’s website, and it becomes de-fault “truth” because they have reached some kind of consensus on it. Those that disagree are oftentimes chastised about it, until they change or go away.
It’s the “Wikipedia” effect, for lack of better words. If it’s in print, then it must be true, right?
Anyways, this kind of thinking was led by the big trainers of the day, like *********, *********, **********, **********, etc. who stated that the likelihood of mere “civilians” using a carbine was so miniscule, that hey, I’ll take your money, but you’re not ever gonna need this training. That was the actual sentiment pre-GWOT. Now some are slowly changing their tune. But this concept has always been around, and continues to be espoused by fellows like this ART website.
So yeah you get this whole, I got 30 rounds in this mag, what more do I need kind of thing. Which to me, is totally looking at things from the perspective of what went down before, and therefore what will “probably” happen in the future. Now there’s the rub. We are seeing such a wide spread between people’s estimate of the situation, that those on the lower end are poo-poo-ing those on the higher side.
Well fiddly-dee, fiddly-doo, I don’t have Mosby’s crystal ball either, but, I do think it’s foolish to base your planning entirely on what the “average” violent confrontation looked like, according to the feds.
You know, sometimes I think you have an apples to oranges comparison here. Are we confusing “common”, every day street crime, with “uncommon” street crime, as in the U-dub we may face? And are these folks in such denial that they cannot imagine it ever happening?
It would appear that we have a disconnect in this ‘tactical training’ world. We have a group that have been conditioned to sneer at those of us who wish to learn how to fight for real, conditioned and led by the big name trainers of the day. Why these guys are even armed with carbines at all I don’t know, other than to simply be fan-boys and girls, look good, and role play? This training is based solidly in law enforcement or pseudo-special ops, and civilians will be taught only as much as their trainer feels they have a right to know. That is even if you are allowed on such ‘advanced’ classes without a suitable LEO or Mil ID card. Don’t worry, if you get to be ‘on the inside’ they may tolerate your presence. Otherwise these civilians might get a little too dangerous, right?
The other side of this are those of us who consider it important to learn real tactical training in order to defend ourselves and our families in uncertain times ahead, to give ourselves a better chance of survival. You could say that those times are already here, given the news, the corruption and the lies at the highest levels. The thin veneer of civility, if any veneer at all, over the barbarian horde. After all, it is inevitable that these United States face a collapse of some sort. It is inevitable; all we are lacking is an exact timeline and means. Perhaps it is already here and we are just waiting for it to get sporty, after some sort of catalyst? Are we already in the ‘gray collapse’ but normalcy bias says it is all OK, because I can still get in my truck and got to McDonalds? When is the cyber-attack going to happen, or whatever it is? Go on, I wrote about it here, and that was before I knew that the Chinese for sure had all of the Secretary of State’s classified emails:
Although you do realize that you won’t have the training or organization to pull off anything like that described in the book, don’t you?
Anyway, this post was pointless. I am preaching to the converted. The tacticool fanboys won’t even read it, and if they do, they will just laugh and pass it off as tin-foil-hattery.
Last man standing gets the last laugh. That chest rig may come in handy, some time in the near future.
Heh.
Max
Diz needs to get out of my head! I have thought the same thing for a while now about “common” crime vs. “uncommon” or “collapse” crime. “Street crime” vs. “banditry”, etc.
I have always KIND of defended the tacticool trainers in that their stuff is targeted toward LEO’s and civvies who expect to deal with common/street crime; the fact is that they are (mostly) teaching good stuff for that. But yeah, it absolutely is not enough. It only gets you to a certain level. If you want to be prepared for uncommon/collapse crime, then you will need more than just the knowledge of how to pew pew at fairly close ranges.
Couldn’t agree with this any more.
However, I have a similar problem with those who ONLY want to train for the “unconventional” environment as well. There are plenty out there who believe H2H and concealed hand gun work is not necessary. I make the argument that BOTH “environments” are around even post event. Imagine you and a few members of your team are visiting a small settlement where wearing your full gear is either not allowed or is too high visibility. Doesn’t matter if you are in this settlement for recon purposes, bartering purposes or simple relaxation, being able to defend yourself against common criminals NEVER goes away…even post event. Not ALL threats will present themselves while we are wearing full kit and with our team.
Andy
True. See comments in:
http://www.maxvelocitytactical.com/2015/08/ballistic-plates-yes-or-no/
Hey, watch it now! I (used to, before discovering the importance of PT thanks to MVT) resemble those 2 fat asses.
Good post.
Yes their kinda is “two worlds.”
Decades ago, I trained with an old MACV SOG guy, it was all similar to what you teach. Years ago I was at a certain gun school and we were working in buildings doing FOF stuff with airsoft. I “shot” one guy and he fell in the doorway to the next room. As I approached him I shot him in the head as I got near him. I dropped back checking angles, getting ready to go into the next room and got chewed out by the instructor- “What the hell did you just do?” I couldn’t tell him, I didn’t know WTH he was asking.
He berates me- “you EXECUTED that guy.” No I shoot him twice in the chest before, remember when he dropped in the door way? “Yes but then you shot him in the head again when you got near him.” Yeah and…..
I got a 20 minute lecture on the law, courtroom, blah blah blah.
Actually, totally applicable to NOW. Completely non applicable to SHTF type stuff.
We need to be well rounded in training- H2H, knife, close range work on the ground and standing, long range work with rifles, etc.
What is crystal clear is that for those SERIOUS about surviving something bad happening, serious tactical training is necessary. You have to be able to run your weapon on a highly proficient level, you need to be able to work within a team, you need to learn tactics. Basically what Max will teach you at CTT and CP.
I have logged (no BS) hundreds of training classes over the years, I can attest that you WILL get serious training out of MVT.
I saw this oblivious type of mental retardation a long time ago in the survival world with the fantasy romance of “Bushcraft” when compared to real survival. I see so many guys dressed up in their period Daniel Boone, Frontier get ups with oiled leathers and wearing moccasins and then go home at night to a house and warm bed and think they are real survivalist, or there’s the really lazy oblivious types that sit around a fire at a camp ground jamboree jerking off over knives they wont get dirty and high end clothing they will never do work in while wearing. They couldn’t sharpen those knives properly or mend a seam on their trousers if their life depended on it. But hey-they look good and are definitely in the latest Bushcraft style.. .Its the same as the SWAT wannabe guys and other types of fan-boy emulations…
There are those that think for themselves and pay attention to their situation with its related realities and those that do not and just follow the herd over the cliff like a bunch of stupid wildebeest because one got spooked after seeing its own shadow. The wildebeest that got spooked is the same fat ass wannabe that’s squeezed and pushed into a much too small tac vest he bought on Amazon from China, and that shoots up his block because he got spooked after thinking he saw “intruders” while doing a neighborhood watch during a 4 day black out. At least the wildebeest had an excuse for being stupid, its an animal unable to transcend instinct.
Ive long stopped trying to wake anyone up. Its simply going against the natural order of things, and really what the point? People are going to do what they want regardless. You can only lead a horse to water. Its almost like politicians handing out welfare checks to perfectly able body individuals and about as productive for the grand scheme of bettering things. The cream will rise to the top. Thats fact. Ive said it before- I think many ppl will be suprised at who they see fall, and who they see rise in the tough times we are facing. Survival will be handed to the smartest, not necessarily the fittest..
Bergmann
I GAVE UP EVEN TALKING TO THESE GUYS THAT TAKE A FEW SQUARE RANGE COURSES (OR LEARN EVERYTHING ON YOUTUBE). EXAMPLE- CONVERSATION I HAD WITH A GUY ON THE “CONVENTIONAL SIDE”. HE DERIDED ME FOR CARRYING 1-2 EXTRA PISTOL MAGS FOR EVERY DAY CARRY. HE SAID THAT FBI REPORTS SHOW THAT THE AVERAGE GUNFITE ONLY INVOLVES 3-4 ROUNDS, INSIDE 5 YARDS, BLAH BLAH. YOU ONLY NEED ONE MAG IN THE PISTOL. MY RESPONSE TO HIM WAS, HAVE YOU EVER HAD A PISTOL MALFUNCTION? SINCE MOST MALFUNCTIONS ARE MAGAZINE INDUCED, DONT YOU THINK CARRYING AN EXTRA MAG IS A GOOD IDEA, JUST FOR THAT REASON ALONE? ARE YOU WILLING TO STAKE YOUR LIFE THAT ALL YOUR MAGS WORK FLAWLESSLY? HAVE YOU EVER CLEANED YOUR MAGS? ALL I GOT WAS A BLANK STARE.
Max
Where’s your fat guys?
Where’s your guys wearing shorts?
The 2 worlds take on training is spot on,I think.
When things start going sideways and getting sporty,the”bad guys” we face will change as well.
Huge difference between carrying a knife and handgun for self defense,so you can stop the current crop of overgrown juvenile delinquents from robbing you,taking your car,or breaking into your home-and the organized groups of gangbangers and other assorted lowlife scum,and confrontation with whatever remains of .gov forces.
Why only train for what a person could face now?
Why not train for worst case scenarios and the common every day threats?
That makes the most sense to me.
As Bergman said-the “Bushcraft” people,and the whole”Bushcraft” rise in popularity,and the people were buying $500.00 “bushcraft knives” which since they spent five hundred bucks for it-the knife never got used-other than showing it to people,or making YouTube videos of themselves in fringed suede pants and jacket-pretending they’re ready to stab a bear with their $500.00 knife.
They think they are “survivalists” because they can start a fire in their back yard with store bought tinder and a ferrocerium rod.
Back to the two worlds thing-the best question is why wouldn’t you train for both?
The only threats you’ll ever face are 25′ away,facing you and unarmed? We’ll never face anything else?
Isn’t everyone supposed to train like the expect to fight?
Wouldn’t that mean training beyond shooting paper at 25′?
What about patrolling your neighborhood?
What about gathering info on enemy movement,strength,etc?
We don’t need to know land nav,because all our threats will be no more than 25’away?
It makes no sense not to train for both.
There have always been the mentality that MERE civilians should not have certain weapons or training. That somehow it is only for the EXPERTS military or LEO.
Well In Baltimore you can see what happens when political control of LEO results in inaction while burning and looting and rock throwers abound. The police say it was too dangerous for them so they HELD the line and watched!
The same political system that for years never corrected the Educational system or fostered the creation and maintenance of families,created a work ethic instead of endless welfare/food stamps with NO meaningful checks and balances to see if it was working properly.
There are LEO who are very good and knowledgable in the use of firearms,same in the military but that is the relatively few most don’t carry the handgun it goes with the uniform and they have to have it most would be better served with revolvers.
How many LEO make good arrests on a regular basis
Answer not very many.
Who then would know how to make a Constitutional stop and frisk, proper arrests and apply appropriate force when needed. Those who exercise and demonstrate that ability or those who seldom make any arrests.
The creation of SWAT teams is an example it was for high risk arrests/convicted felons executing warrants repelling terrorists? It has been misused to everyday arrests/serving warrants..why for productivity those units take up training time and in most places are NOT needed more than once or twice a year so work is made up, routine warrants every drug raid.
Years ago there were NO swat teams you did it all yourself yes at times with a subject who wanted to fight police he or she got thumped, now they sit back and if you don’t follow their commands they Taze you or call in SWAT.
There is a place for non lethal use of force fisticuffs/espantoon before escalating to Tazers/firearms armored cars.
A couple of things, Max has said it but it bears repeating, MVT is not all about U/W only; you need to train in the full spectrum of arts to meet any threat, right now or post-collapse.
Yes, there is much play-acting out there. The purpose of all that was to get you started thinking this way as a child; now that that isn’t “allowed” anymore, young adults are busy doing it later in life I suppose. Nothing wrong with it, per se, just get past the play-acting and get into the real training; now would be a good time, rather than later.
Robert again brings up a very good point. “Security rounds” as they were called in my day. Very sticky point with some. On an asymmetrical battlefield, there is really no “frontline”, so the old rule about not shooting, once the assault has gone past the enemy, doesn’t really cover every situation. Of course each group must establish it’s own ROE, but in a fluid engagement, I don’t really want to leave some crazy alive that might put a round in a friendly, before he can be dis-armed and perhaps treated. If the sit allows for it, fine, if not, sorry chum.
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