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Steel Plates – An Opinion

I have seen a lot out there about steel ballistic rifle plates. I’m not happy about it.

I get the gist of it – cheap plates so you can afford to have body armor. ‘Patriot Plates’ as they are called. However, the problem I am seeing is that these plates are now being touted as actually being better than ceramic plates. Without doing a whole lot of nerdish research, here are my thoughts on this:

1) You can probably afford ceramic plates. Sell one of those many guns in your safe, or whatever.

2) Ceramic plates are a hell of a lot lighter than steel, whatever you read. Yes, there are many variable products, but I’m talking a set of decent ceramic plates.

  • If you are touting rifle and riflemen load-out, you should be wearing ballistic plates, at least front and rear even if you don’t do side plates. One goes with the other, in most circumstances.
  • Given that most people’s major malfunction is lack of PT, and steel weighs a ton, how do you expect to carry that load-out plus your steel plates? Come on, stop BS’ing me. If you think you want to do it, get out and do more PT.
  • That means that your steel will be left behind, so now you are back to square 1, with no armor at all.

3) There is a whole lot of BS about ceramic plates. You would think they are made of glass and will shatter as soon as you go prone. Drop them from the back of your truck? Ahhhh, new plates please! BS. Yes, the military gets a little crazy with x-raying them, but even if there is a hairline crack, that is only weakness along that specific hairline. You can abuse these plates a lot more than you think.

4) Perhaps compared to a full IOTV with soft armor, weights may start to get close, but if you are wearing ceramic you are wearing them just like the steel, with no soft armor. I’m talking about a plate carrier, not a soft armor carrier with ballistic plates as well. Compare apples with apples.

5) Steel will cause ricochet and spall. I don’t care what type of truck liner you want to paint it with. Even the curved ones will send ricochets into your brachial arteries in your upper arms, for example. Put up a steel target with some cardboard around it and shoot at it. Check out the cardboard, Think about your throat and face.  Not to mention the sound of SHTF, with ‘Patriots’ being knocked down to the sound of piiiiing on their steel plates LOL.

6) Ceramic will absorb the strike. Yes, it will only take so many rounds., Depending on the plate and the round that strikes it, that can be up to 5 rounds. So it is done after that. But steel is still in the game, right? Let’s get a little perspective: Let me ask you: how many times do you plan on getting lit up in the chest by multiple rounds? It’s a lottery moment, where you actually get hit, and not only that, he hits you in the plate and not, let’s say, the femoral or head. If it happens, when you get a chance, swap your front and rear plates. Pick up some plates off a dead guy. Have some spare ceramics. Because I know you won’t be lugging those steel ones around with you, because they are too heavy, and you got fed up with it.

7) Ballistic plates do not make you bullet proof (OK, maybe a little). They are your cover of last resort. Don’t forget your basics, of actually taking cover. In a firefight, you need to be able to keep low and move fast. PT and training will play a large part in that. Being adequately equipped but able to truck about with that fighting load will play another part. You can be an immobile tank in your full set of steel plates, or you can be lighter and faster with your front and rear ceramics. It’s important to get the right perspective on this. The old dilemma, balancing:

  • Firepower
  • Mobility
  • Protection

Firepower: use an AR/5.56 rifle which will allow you a combat effective rifle for which you can carry a serious combat load of 8-12 magazines without overloading yourself. This will give you benefits in the mobility area, while allowing you serious firepower.

Mobility: do some serious PT. Get used to being able to carry your required combat load. Balance the desire to boy-scout it with every piece of gear available, with  a healthy disregard for what you don’t need. Pare your gear down ruthlessly to what you actually need. Ammo, water, IFAK, energy, night vision on the person. Lightweight patrol pack with the minimum necessary to survive and complete the mission. No effing camping!

Protection: “He who defends everywhere, defends nowhere.” If your PT, training, fieldcraft and battle drills are crap, you will get shot anyway however much steel or ceramic plate you wear. Balance reasonable lightweight plates with the ability to keep mobility.

The three are a balance and a trade-off.

Have at it, just don’t try and justify your mistaken steel plate purchase here.

Max

 

 

49 responses to “Steel Plates – An Opinion”

  1. Max,
    Can you offer some suggestions in terms of sources for good quality ceramic plates? I appreciate the help.
    Jim

    • I’m not personally up to speed on it. I have some old, knackered, shattered, smashed up, (sarcasm) ceramic plates that I have had for a while. Others may have more recent purchases, so links would be useful. Maybe even for my next purchase (I’ll sell the .50 cal sniper rifle first though, to pay for it) ;-)

    • Highcom security has the best price I’ve seen on 10×12 mutli curve. They often run promos and can find 25% discount code online.

      2 x 10×12 multi curves were ~$250

    • MVT has no financial interest in the following companies but you can check out bulletproofme.com, skd tactical, and grey group training. I know there are more but that’s just off the top of my head.

  4. I purchased ceramic plates from BulletProofMe.com but they weigh as much as steel plates. Right around 8lbs each for the front and rear shooter’s cut plates.

    • Their Ceramic Level IV Stand-Alone Rifle Plates weigh from 8.6 lbs to 5 lbs, it’s in plain view.

      Like anything in life decide on your requirements, do your research, and take your chances.

  5. Anyone have any thoughts on Dyneema plates? I hear that they are thick, but from what I am reading, they are lighter and multi-strike. Not sure what the catch is, but I am assuming that there has to be one.

    Very respectfully,
    MM1

    • Dyneema?
      Two major trade-offs (but also some other benefits you didn’t mention):
      1) Serious temperature range limitations – leave it exposed to temps outside the range, and it becomes useless (and worse yet, you may not be able to tell if that has happened).
      Too much time spent in temperatures lower than -15 degrees F, or higher than 150-180 degrees F (sources vary), and the molecular structure changes. 150 may sound absurdly high, but the interior of a car parked in the sun on a hot day can exceed this.
      2) Level III Rifle Plate protection only – not Level IV, the technology isn’t there yet.

      Other notes: seriously light (and I do mean insanely light weight) but usually bulkier (thicker) – so your plate carrier must be generously cut to fit most Dyneema plates in.

      Also, a strike only compromises the armor a mm or two around the hit – it will perform just fine with further hits, as long as the hits aren’t on top of each other.

    • I’ve been thinking about some Dyneema plates myself. From the reviews they perform to the level III standards and are so much lighter than anything else on the market. But that price point is brutal. Defiantly would be one of the last kit items I would buy after NV and FLIR.

      Check the body armor tests by well-known gear reviewers on youtube. Here’s one for the lightest Dyneema plate I’ve seen at 2.9lbs!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIjFHV1qgD4

      • Seriously? I went to watch the link and realized you put nutnfancy up on my blog…
        What next?!

        • You don’t like nutnfancy? I’ve seen some of his videos from time to time but I don’t know anything about him. Just curious if there was a reason to avoid his stuff.

          BTW – this is an awesome blog entry Max – I’m getting a good education on plates and armor which is an area I wanted to get up to speed on. This is being the catalyst and base knowledge to start my own research.

        • While I can’t say that I subscribe to Nutnfancy’s many questionable combat theories his gear reviews can provide information lacking in other sources. Obviously you do not think to highly of this particular gear reviewer. Do you know something I don’t about this guys reviews? Care to share? I don’t have a dog in this fight and would appreciate any additional info for future analysis.

          Here’s another review on Dyneema plates that I found, (Nutnfancy free). The Dyneema review starts at 5:30.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1FgutJeyr8

          This guy also reviews a couple other plate types including the maligned AR 500 steel.

        • Other reviewers have said gave them positive results. Don’t let Nutnfancy’s review scare you off of them. That being said, I don’t own any. :)

        • Per Max’s request- Here is a link to DKX Armour.
          http://dkxarmor.com/#page-about-dkx-solutions

          My buddy Barry(Florida) ran these plates at the April CRCD. 2.9 lbs each, Level III rating. Multi hit capable. These are made with Dyneema. It’s a trade name and is similar to Spectra (Honeywell Corp) in chemical composition.

    • Dyneema is a trade name for compressed polyethylene (aka HDPE or UHMWPE). If you look you will find that such plates will generally not stop rounds that are considered “enhanced penetration,” such as M855 and mild steel core 7.62×39.

      What is your most probable threat?

  6. I’m not in disagreement with Max, but I do think he’s overblowing the weight differential here. I want to say, from memory having weighed both, it’s only about 2lbs difference per set. I could confirm that– I’d have to dig them out. Two pounds is quart of water or a couple of loaded mags. But percentage-wise of overall weight it doesn’t seem like a game changer.
    I do think people are underestimating the spalling issue. On a video posted up recently on WRSA the testers were so proud of their (truck bed liner) spall protection, pointing to the undamaged cardboard around the perimeter of the wooden frame that held the plate. What you were not supposed to notice is that the spalling WASTED, cut completely through, the 2×2 frame itself within just few rounds. To catch spalling, I’m betting on cheaply sourced, old police cast-off or mil-surplus, soft panels placed *in front* of the steel plate.. in a similar way to the military who runs soft panels *behind* their ceramics to catch what shards might make it *through*.

    • Just got off the horn with Tim at bulletproofme – a very cool, informative dude on the phone – they sell surplus police vest “TEST” panels for use as spall sheilds in front of steel plates and I wanted to explore the effectiveness of this option. Their normal test panels are $20 but for hand selected test panels that are the correct size and suitable condition for spall, they charge $45 per panel.

      So, as Tim pointed out, for the AR500 steel plate, with heavy LineX coating and spall shield you are looking at $10 MORE per plate than their entry level, stand alone, class IV ceramic plate.

      Plus a pair of the steel plates as described above is going to weigh in at 21.5 pounds vs. the ceramics as described above which weigh in at 17(actually 16.6 rounded up) pounds.

      I would only consider steel plates with the HEAVY LineX coating AND an additional spall shield. But at that point you are paying more and getting less – except for weight which you are getting more of. ;-)

      Also, steel plates with the liner and the sheild are only going to effectively handle spall for 90 degree shots. Shots coming in at other angles are not going to be controlled. Add to that the fact that no matter what you do to enhance steel against spall you will never mitigate ricochet.

      Ceramic is designed to eliminate spall and ricochet from any angle.

      Cheaper, lighter and more effective.

      On the flip side however, while ceramic is supposed to be a lot tougher than people realize, it can be damaged with abuse. Also ceramic plates are backed with a layer of kevlar which may have an effective shelf-life. Ceramic is also roughly two to three times thicker than steel options. Steel doesn’t have a shelf-life, it’s alot thinner and you can beat on it all day long.

      The trade-offs, in my mind, greatly favor ceramic and at the end of the day I am currently sold on getting ceramic plates over steel plates.

      It pays to do your own research while you listen to the professionals – trust but verify – that way you can give a reason for your choices beyond just saying, “because so-and-so said I should buy it.”

  7. I’ll admit I’m just starting to look into body armor, and need more PT, but I’m having a hard time putting together the limited facts and the opinons from guys who’ve been there.

    A set of patriot plates apparently run 8lbs per plate. Add spall covers and your armor is around 17lbs and $250.

    I’m ignoring the carrier since it’s common to all the setups.

    Ceramics don’t need spall covers right? I’m having a hard time understanding bulletproofme’s page but it looks like you’re paying $50-$100 more for the same weight in shooter’s cut ceramics. And, while I get where Max is coming from on lottery hits, they are more fragile than steel.

    So base line ceramic is the same weight, more fragile, and costs more.

    Going to “lightweight” ceramic saves 2.5lbs for an extra $170.

    Next step I see is “ultra lightweight” ceramic saving 6lbs for an extra $1730. (Which seems crazy. bulletproofme’s $990 ultra lightweight price has to be for a pair, unlike per plate on the rest of their page, right?)

    I haven’t felt it yet but I can see two pounds being worth $170. My first time around on this, though, I’m thinking patriot plates with covers. From there I’ll hopefully be able to figure out what I don’t know…

    • So I took a quick (10 second) look at bulletproofme.com. It says right there for steel plates:

      “Inexpensive, but a much higher risk of bullet splatter or ricochet.”

      Scrolling down it has Level III standalone plates:

      10″ by 12″ 3.2 – 3.5 lbs. $ 330 – 630
      each.

      Like all these things, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

      The point here is not that ceramic is as inexpensive as steel, but that steel is a false economy. You need to spend the money.

      I consider it a better investment to pay more, even if I have to sell the retreat sniper rifle, and get the protection AND mobility , without spall or ricochet.

      It also needs more research, and things may have moved on, but you have to be careful over the whole level III, level IV thing: I remember choosing the III over the IV, as a trade off, and at the recommendation of the manufacturer based on threat in Iraq:

      Level III: Tested to stop 6 rounds of .308 Winchester Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) = NATO 7.62 X 51 mm, and, of course it can easily handle lesser threats, such as AK-47 / Kalashnikov 7.62 X 39 mm Full Metal Jacket (FMJ).

      Level IV: Tested to stop ONE round of .3006 Armor-Piercing (AP) at 868 mps and lesser threats. Though just tested for one hit of .3006 AP, will also stop multiple hits of lesser threats such as: .308 FMJ, AK-47, M-16 – M855 or SS-109, etc.

      Remember, that as Larry says above: “Also, a strike only compromises the armor a mm or two around the hit – it will perform just fine with further hits, as long as the hits aren’t on top of each other.”

      So yes, pay peanuts and get ceramics that weight just a little less than steel. Or pay more and get something truly operational.

      There are more options than posted on that site, which is as you say a little confusing.

      • This is a great example of why I’m so confused. BulletProofMe’s website is seriously, horribly, bad. But I’ll roll with it because it seems on par with every other armor site I’ve browsed.

        Max found 3.5-3.7 lb stand alone plates for $330-630 on the main plate page in about 10 seconds. Shooters cut? Ceramic? There isn’t any other detail and details clearly matter. We’ll assume shooters cut ceramics.

        On the dedicated stand-alone ceramic page these aren’t listed. The options jump from 8ish pounds, to 6.5ish to 5.5ish. At that 5.5 pound mark they’re asking $990, I think, each.

        As I’m writing this down I’m realizing the difference is level III vs IV.

        So you can get a stand alone III plate weighing 3.5ish pounds for $330-$630 (why a range?) or stand alone level IV plate weighing 5.5 pounds for $990. I think.

        Getting protection from that .30-06 AP round sure costs a lot in both weight and $$.

  8. It’s interesting how one can focus so much on the weight of individual equipment yet the overall load out weight is what matters most. A good starting point that many people look past is to ask yourself if you really need all of that 1000 weight tactical nylon? Personally I’ve said hell no! Sure there are high stress points that need to be more robust but that doesn’t mean the entire item must be built like a tank. The same concept must be applied to all kit and yourself. All those ounces add up real fast and by watching that weight at all levels you can drop 10-20lbs of useless weight.

    Speaking of useless weight, the physical state of one’s body goes beyond the capacity to do a shitload of labor. Weather fat or excess muscle that’s still weight that must be ported around and that costs energy just to maintain. I think it’s better to think of maintaining a fighting weight along the lines of a weight restricted athlete. Now I’m not talking about their unhealthy cutting practices or dangerously low body fat percentages but striving for that high power to weight ratio that athletes like fighters have. Once you can get yourself to this physical state it could be said that you’re overpowered and underweight. Just wearing your fighting load doesn’t make much difference at all because now you’re just carrying an average healthy bodyweight and carrying a sustainment load becomes like being a fat guy, except a really in shape fat guy. Beats the hell out of carrying those excess pounds then adding weight where next thing you know you and your kit tip the scales like an NFL linemen.

    After considering the many factors that lead to useless weight a few extra pounds in the areas of weapons and armor aren’t even worth stressing over. That said, if one can acquire higher Tec lightweight equipment, get it. After all, any means of allowing extra ammo and water is a win in my book. Personally I sure would like some of those ultra-light Dyneema plates.

      • An interesting thing about spall and ricochet is while they do damage and can be lethal, they lack the energy to qualify as a high velocity round. That said most pistol calibers are not high velocity either but that doesn’t mean that I’d want to be shot by one. However objectively speaking while steel plate does have risks associated with it, it does reduce risk of taking those high velocity rounds that do considerably more damage to tissues surrounding bullet entry points via hydrostatic cavitation.

  10. Both times I ran through CRCD I wore plates in a light weight PC with 3 mags attached. The first time I wore the cheap $145 jobbies from bulletproofme. They are sturdier then you would think. I slipped, crashed and tumbled to the ground all weekend and they seem no worse for the wear. I wore rino-lined steel the second go around. I like the idea of using steel for training and working out (its like a weight vest, but it can take a bullet) and ceramic for “when you need it.”

    Both sets of plates weight about the same- 16ish pounds. As a couple of comments above said, I could save about 2lbs by upgrading to affordable plates, but for now I’ll keep up with the PT and try to lose more then those 2lbs on my own.

    To get truly light weight plates (under 10-12lbs) you would need to spend at least $1000. At least from what I’ve seen.

    http://store.appalachiantraining.com/SearchResults.asp?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=1875&show=10&page=2

  11. Back on MV’s old site Matt Bracken made the case for putting the ninja on instead of plates, just saying don’t hate the
    Messenger

  12. Another factor is that steel is much easier to penetrate with varmint rounds. Some 50-55gr stuff zipping along at +3300 fps can and will punch through your cheap as steel where as it won’t ceramic. NIJ? Sure. But there things that are not tested. There is a reason the US military uses ceramic. Don’t buy steel.

  13. Back when I knew less than I know now (which won’t much either way) I got myself, wife and kids all soft body armor. Than later I bought some AR500, way to heavy IMHO unless it’s at the Alamo and you’re planning to be planted where you stand.

    Now I will be going for the light ceramic (One grand type) now I was hoping that one day someone was going to invent some 3# or less plates that will stop just about anything at a good price ($500 or less) but with the current invasion on our borders I just don’t think I have the time to wait any longer and what is a grand gonna to mean when the SHTF anyway?

    MV you sold me on this and PT’ing, keep up the good work!

  14. Called some folks i know at several companies mentioned heres the requirements.
    greyghostgear $575 for plate and carrier kit. Level 4 stand alone. Require ccw, .mil, or le creds
    Applachain requires le or .mil creds
    bulletproofme requires verbal creds. Banshee carrier and level 4 plates 670 ship. Those are shooter cut triple curved

    None of the plates are ultra light weight

    Important note… not all ceramic plates are stand alone. Some require level 3 soft armor backing. Bulletproofme sells lvl 3 soft backers if you have those style plates already

    If talking to bulletproofme talk to tim. Great guy to work with. Tell him Skittles recommended them. He can pull up my previous orders. Keeps the friendly atmoshpere alive with a friendly supplier. Qnd no i dont get a discount or kick back from them. Just looking to help keep all you ugly mugs alive

  15. If you are looking for bargains on ceramic plates go to eBay…. there are new and surplus plates available at reasonable prices.

    another outlet is gun shows and military surplus shows.

    Max, good article! I have had this debate with a friend in the past…

  16. Spartan Armor medium steel plates are like 7.5lbs. That about the same as a SAPI or TAP Gamma, right? Also, I think they’re rhino lined for anti-spalling. and its like $160 for a set of them.

    • Here are Dr. Gary Roberts coments on testing these plates:

      Recently, Tactical Armor Products Gamma Plus single-curve Level III plates (TAP) have become available to LE via DRMO/1033 programs. A newer triple curve version of these plates is also available commercially for a very low cost.

      Plate weights and construction are as follows:

      TAP: 4.9 lbs—what appears to be 4.5 mm aluminum oxide backed by compressed polyethelene (likely Dyneema or Spectra) with a total plate thickness of approximately 1 inch.

      The plates were tested in exactly the same manner as previously discussed.

      TEST RESULTS:

      TAP: (one plate used for 5.56 mm shots; second plate used for .30 caliber hits; third plate used for additional AP shots and 12 ga slug)
      3 shots M193 successfully stopped by the plate.
      3 shots of M855 successfully stopped by the plate
      3 shots of LeMas successfully stopped by the plate
      3 shots of M43 successfully stopped by the plate
      3 shots of M67 successfully stopped by the plate
      3 shots of M80 successfully stopped by the plate
      1 shot of 12 ga slug successfully stopped by the plate
      3 shots of SSA 70 gr AP perforated the plates and underlying soft armor

      Projectile Penetration Protection: The TAP plates offered level III PPP on par with the TenH plates previously tested.

      Back Face Deformation: These plates had larger BFD, similar to the previously tested TenH plates–soft armor backing is highly recommended.

      Spall: The TAP plates exhibited a moderate amount of spall.

      Plate Weight: These were among the lighter plates compared to previously tested level III armor.

      Durability: The TAP plates thin ceramic layer is susceptible to fracturing; several of the plates we tested exhibited small chips and cracks in the ceramic on arrival. These plates require careful handling and storage to prevent damage.

  17. Max,

    Respectfully, I do not think you are looking at the real context of your audience. While there are some people who have the ability to spend $1000 on ceramic, pay several hundred dollars for your class, and focus on other preps, the majority of preppers cannot afford that expenditure. Most people can afford $300 steel armor, their preps, and your classes. As long as you have like-minded people buying preps, armor, and getting training, what is the problem?

    Yes, I understand and agree that ceramic is superior but why would I spend 3x the amount of ceramic when for the same amount I can buy 2 sets of steel armor and nearly 1000 rounds of ammo?

    • Becasue of all the reasons laid out in my post and the further comments. Yet you are still on the steel plates? You are probably better off without, in all honesty.

      As to context of my audience, my blog and training advice is about tactical honesty and truth. It isn’t about having people save money so they can spend it on my training, or other such nonsense.

      If you want to boil it down to not spending money (which could save your life) most preppers would be better off forgetting the steel plates and focusing on PT and training – because the context of the audience is that a vast number are overweight, underfit, and with no tactical idea other than what they read on the internet.

      It pains me, which is why I dish out free advice. .

  18. I’m not particularly satisfied with the most prolific armor options on the market weather ceramic or steel. This is why I have great interest in newer technologies like Dyneema that look to both stop common threats and be substantially lighter. But they lack the track record of more established armor types and as such represent an unknown quantity. Such unknown quantities have historically been resisted by those involved in warfighting. This is understandable given the costs associated with failure in the combat environment.

    Even though Dyneema represents a relative unknown quantity when compared to more prolific systems, what is known I find to satisfactory. When looking at the history of armor the perfect or near perfect solution seems not to have been the driving factor when choosing protection. Ultimately a degree of protection was sufficient to justify a particular armor style. This can be seen historically in the stand alone use of padded armor and mail. Contemporary tests of such armors can easily make us question the worth of using them at all given their failures against piecing damage and even heavy cuts. But such analysis ignores performance requirements of the greater combat environment, requirements that go beyond mobility and protection level. There is of course the factor of economy to consider and while the more economical armors may fail under an ideal attack situation it had a degree combat effectiveness nonetheless. Given that contemporary use of armor for the infantrymen is relatively new I believe a great deal of context can be gleaned from those who used it in an unbroken chain for thousands of years.

    Looking at our modern armor dilemma there is as in the past no perfect solution. The limiting factors of weight, cost, protection level, and track record still exist. We all have to balance our equipment to our resources and needs. Personally I plan to buy the lightest effective armor that I can. This may mean going without for some time but I guess I’ll just have to suck it up like infantry have for the last few hundred years. Till then if I end up in Odin’s hall, then so be it.

    “Even if one is young and strong it makes sense to avoid heavy armor. Armor made to match the strength of the prime of youth becomes useless when one gets older. Besides, no matter how young you are, if you are wounded on the battlefield, even thin metal armor is sure to weigh you down and tire you out” –The Bushido Shoshinsu-

  19. Max,

    I have no problem moving over long distance or short sprints with my loadout. I lift weights, run, backpack, and backcountry ski. But yes, I could be in better shape.

    Your second and third paragraphs seem to conflict. In the second you minimize the importance of good training but in the third you stress the deficit of tactical knowledge.

    My post was simply an attempt to provide greater context from an average prepper’s perspective and gain an understanding about tactical situations in the world you describe in your books.

    I am operating under the assumption that education and improving one’s skills are vital, and then tools and “stuff” come later. My only issue is that sometimes the really good courses cost a premium, and it becomes very challenging to balance important preps.

    • “Your second and third paragraphs seem to conflict. In the second you minimize the importance of good training but in the third you stress the deficit of tactical knowledge.”

      That would not make sense. I am all about training, and would never minimize its importance. I was referring to my not wanting to obscure the truth to draw people into training, which is the polar opposite of what MVT is and always has been about. You are creating a rabbit hole.

      Are you being obstreperous for a reason?

  21. Max, I think you made your point very well, and I will check in with J.C. Dodge and see what he can find for me in the way of a light weight level III set of plates. I will use my steel ones (yes you MAY call me sucker) for P.T. like a weight belt. and the steel may still have a vehicle borne or fixed position defense use for somebody. I appreciate your post, because there are many like me that don’t know better.(without your help)..Keep up the good work, we need you.

  22. Oh crap! I’ve only recently received my Patriot Plates and it already looks as though the only use for them will be throwing them at the ‘Looting hords’ at close range.

    I’m big and strong enough to lug them around, but that’s not the point is it.

    An excuse might be to use them from a defensive position, but who am I kidding! There is no such thing as a defensive position. Movement & mobility is the key to a good defensive withdrawal.

    And there, is the key to this discussion. Movement and mobility verses spalling/ricochet. Ceramics are the winner.

    (I believe Dyneema was originally intended for the marine/oilfield industry and is used extensively in the securing/mooring of drilling rigs to the sea floor. It is certainly an extremely strong woven material).

    I digress. My thanks for a truly informed and educated opinion from all participants in this thread.

    Nice one Max…..so ‘Shortbread’s’ just got her new light weight AR15 and I’m now re-buying ceramic body armor…..Bollocks!

    • Saw this on the forum. The point is simply the truth. Getting truth to people who are sucking up the BS.
      This guy got butt hurt. What’s his financial interest on steel?

      • I do know he’s selling spall guards for steel, so there’s room for some cynicism.