Round-Up: Over the transom on Oathkeepers & Justin Giles
I posted yesterday the following:
‘More Tactical Ignorance + Oathkeepers‘
‘Info from over the transom: Justin Giles of OathKeepers‘
More has come in since. Its veering a little towards the Bundy Ranch fiasco.
1) This one came in with the following quote: “I was up at Bundy Ranch. Oath Keepers used it as a cash cow.” Anon: LINK to a Bundy Ranch AAR on WRSA (It takes you directly to a comment which is the AAR).
2) “The guy I was talking with was basically threatening to unleash the wrath Stewie on me if I didn’t listen to his “orders”. I suppose since I had an OK patch on he figured I was his subordinate. This guy went so far as to get out his cell phone and call Stewie and actually say to him, “There is an OK here that won’t listen to me”. Never ever again will I associate with OK as long as they are lead by Stew. Never ever will I associate with a militia, the level of retard I observed those couple of days was enough to clue me in that I was better off on my own or at least with some close friends.” Anon.
3) Here is a post I did: ‘Thoughts on Organization‘ – with some specifics aimed at Bundy Ranch.
4) HERE is a story linked through The Blaze that is relevant because it contains reference to, and a photo of, of Justin Giles:
It would appear that the OK organization has intent to command and coordinate other entities, but it appears it does not have the legitimacy or competence to do so on the ground.
It also appears that the ‘militia’ at the Bundy Ranch were a complete cluster fuck:
“Never ever again will I associate with OK as long as they are lead by Stew. Never ever will I associate with a militia, the level of retard I observed those couple of days was enough to clue me in that I was better off on my own or at least with some close friends.” Anon.
I also see the same with the ‘militia’ who showed up at the border, with face masks and carrying their weapons by the magazine, etc. We are all the militia, don’t fucking embarrass me!
What is missing is organization and training, which results in lack of legitimacy. The true source for that in reality would be properly trained and experienced combat veterans, who posses leadership ability.
Unless you have organizational leadership with legitimacy, which a majority of the people who turn out will follow, then you have nothing. Just a cluster fuck. That excludes the PRI’s (Paranoid Radical Individualists) who will follow no-one and are no good to anyone. No team there. They hate military types as well.
The bottom line is that to have an effective paramilitary organization it needs to be run as per a military organization. No, don’t confuse that with the modern military, but perhaps an older school one. Army of the 1980’s perhaps? I talk about this in my ‘Thoughts on Organization‘ post.
In order to make an organization like that successful, people must willingly associate and subsume their interest to that of the group for the purpose of the team effort. There must be a Captain, and Sergeants, and all the rest of the structure to make a military organization work. It doesn’t mean you are jumping to attention and all that. It just means you do the job in a quietly professional way.
Thoughts?
Max
“What is missing is organization and training, which results in lack of legitimacy.”
Fucking bang on.
I followed the Bundy situation as well as I could. Some things that were done right: The conference calls and informal intelligence network that did their damndest to dispel stupid rumors (like that cell coverage had been cut in the area)
Three things.
1. In the militia movement, those that are COMPLETELY unqualified, desperately try to get themselves in a position of authority (approx 95% of the militia “commanders” out there)
2. Those that are squared away and are combat vets stay the fuck away, either because of a) stupid civilians or b ) informal veteran networks
3. The national scene is an utter clusterfuck, and Rhodes and the OK’s have completely wasted a rare opportunity for positive impact and leadership.
We need something like OK’s. Something dedicated to professional image, truth-telling, and not hiring fucking felons that love to join militias.
I am an OathKeeper, we have a local chapter, good people but I am not a follower of Steward Rhoades, he has proven over and over his incompetence when it comes to organization with “boots on the ground” but however he is a good speaker.
I will not be renewing my membership if he is not taken out of his current command position and a more competent individual is installed there instead.
Our local organization can called themselves what ever we want, it is all about the people, we are all there for the people in the trenches with us not for someone who is on an ego trip someplace else. I for one nor anyone I command will never follow a person into battle such as Rhoades.
If Steward Rhoades really believed in the causes he espouses, he would resign his present position and assume a position that puts him at a level that is something he is good at, giving speeches only, and turn over the duties of organization when its comes to “boots on the ground” to someone more capable but I am afraid his ego (or his current $$ stream) is more important than the cause itself.
Actions always speak louder than words!
I was the western states operations officer and a member of Oath Keepers since almost its inception. I resigned a couple of months ago as I could no longer understand the lack of leadership and guidance from stewart and many of the BOD. After I resigned I was banned from the OK Forum and had several posts by stewart demeaning myself and my wife and if were not for other Oath Keepers supplying me with copy and pasted text I would have never known…Sad part is that the majority of Oath Keepers are great Men and Women…..
Mike, you have summarized my observations and thoughts quite well. Stewart is a good speaker and thinker, but his ability to lead is sorely lacking. The forum has largely become a giant Charlie Foxtrot seasoned with over-the-top conspiracy nutcases and abusive, power-hungry moderators. Not useful…
The .org is a good idea but the execution is lacking.
Mike, when I heard that you had resigned and saw the overall lack of effective leadership from National, I wrote them off. The posts here by Max just validate my view. We need a strong national organization with effective, committed, competent leaders. Good groups here in WA, forging on with or without the national group.
darn right. true leaders know when they are outmatched and will step aside for the good of the organization. With ALL the high caliber people in OK it’s absurd that it’s not more organized. Remember when OK was going to start the “training cadre”…well I’ve been eagerly awaiting that for what, 2 years now?
I have spoken with several trainers (Max, DTG, Quietman, etc.) About creating a standard training course that not only covers SUT Infantry type skillsets, but also addresses the need for leadership fundamentals. We all feel this is something that needs serious attention if we’re to effectively counter what’s coming.
Yes! A leadership course is sorely needed. It’s the obvious next step after taking SUT classes.
I hope your suggestion/advice will become a reality. Max’s warning about the selfish prepper are legitimate but without like minded individuals with whom people can associate this type of mindset often results.
BBQ’d
Know that the silent majority is VERY thankful for what you, Max and the others are doing!
Those who are the subject of this post may cringe at hearing this said (ie reading this writ), but I predict that should things go seriously sideways in this country, while we have established writers such as CA and Vanderboegh that will likely continue to serve as the ideological leadership a la Jefferson and Franklin, until such time as they are executed, it is the established trainers (MDT, Max, DTG, Quietman, Mosby, Culper, Sparks31) who will be looked to as the generals in the field.
Like it or not, you are the ones who have already started down that long road of earning not just the respect, but the trust of the future grunts. …and if we’re even halfway correct about what we think we see coming over the horizon, trust is going to be a more precious commodity in future days than food, water, or ammunition.
May you spend it well.
#OREGON HOBO#
As a NCO I knew once said “The only way you’ll ever see General in front of your name is if it’s followed by the words “court martial of…”
I’m on the phone with MDT discussing this right now. More to follow.
I have spoken in the past to CA about putting on a big training event in GA that would start on a Thursday or Friday with basic individual skills and conclude on Sunday with a full unit exercise that wrapped in all aspects of the art. Comm’s, medical, tactical planning and execution, so on so forth. Moving the participant from the basic individual level all the way up to how all of these things congeel.
Lord knows I am no professional trainer but I like to play one on TV so take my suggestion for what its worth.
Agree militia and OK is a pill for disaster. Some somewhere might be well meaning but most so called leadership that I have seen promote themselves to a rank colonel or whatever and impose orders…
Your platform makes sense and does not solicit or want paranoid radical individualists…
Keep up the good work
Their criticism is like rain you might get wt but it rolls off and means nothing.
The real applause is from US who will one day realize your training…
The first morning at Bundy ranch I was sitting back just shaking my head. It was obvious that most of those in the militia leadership had little to know real leadership traits or qualities about themselves. They seemed more star struck with the lime light instead of being humbled by the accompanying responsibilities a leader undertakes. The AAR Max posted was the one from when I attended Bundy. Steward Rhoades was too busy trying to get on TV and push memberships, he didn’t have time to actually give direction or be a leader, sales was the order of the day.
I completely agree with other trainers, we need to not only focus on honing the field craft and firearms prowess we must also hone our leadership and tactical decision making skills. Leading is often times knowing when to shut up and be a good follower. Specifically during Bundy the main problem I observed was that everyone wanted to “lead” but no one wanted to follow. A small group of Vietnam Vets, retired Police officers and I posted up and just watched and waited to be useful.
The infighting between separate militia groups was very disheartening as well. There were actual physical threats of violence to one another over who was supposed to be in charge. .Gov doesn’t need to be worried about sending in the troops, a few days longer and we would have done ourselves in for them.
Read “Paul Revere’s Ride” by David Hackett Fischer and “Minute Men” by John Galvin. Both go in to detail about the organization of the militia in 1775. One glaring thing I got out of both was how lacking “Freefor” is as far as organization. We have a LONG way to go.
I too, am an oathkeeper. My membership ends in a few weeks. I just sent them an e-mail asking for a reason why I should send them more money.
I don’t expect a persuasive response.
Ha! I also asked them to explain to me why their guy had a problem with Max! I told them I had been to MVT and thought Max did an excellent job.
I had a brush with the “Ohio Unorganized Militia” a decade and a half ago. They could not have pulled off an assault on a whitecastle without losses.
I have my tribe. If the time ever comes, we will do our part. No uniforms, no chest thumping, no shit.
FIDO Mutherfuckers FIDO
Self appointed militia leaders do not constitute leadership no matter how its sliced. I believe the path to a structured command architecture in a militia, because it is as purely voluntary as voluntary can be, is something that is best earned through trust and example. Like you Max as an example.
I’ll use myself as an example. If where where to join in potential combat an outfit, the bonafides of a leader I would be willing to serve under would have to be without reproach. I would be putting my life and limb in this leaders hands, it is a matter of open trust, just as I’m sure a good leader would need the trust and confidence of my abilities and motives.
Having taken training with you Max, and watched your endeavors since you founded MVT, You have displayed moral character and knowledge, most admirably by and through personal example, and not in the least your tremendous effort and organizational skills, you embody to me the pinnacle of commander/leader I would be proud to serve under, and be willing to go to all lengths to aspire to the same. That is the quality of leadership I am only willing to serve under. It is that simple for me, personally.
You exemplified the critical essential nature of this in Patriot Dawn Max.
This is it in a nut shell, if I’m going to fight, possibly die in the process, I want to know I’m not just doing so for a grew cause, but for a leader who understands this and why men fight for greater things than just themselves.
If it makes me a picky patriot, you know what, tough shit. It is my life and blood, it is my liberty, and Ill be damned if just a title bestowed trust. Any leader I serve under is going to have to earn my trust and admiration, just as I expect I will prove the same.
I hope my comment doesn’t come across as a rant or arrogance. But what may be required is a matter of liberty in its essence, and voluntary as voluntary as can be.
It all begins with each of us and it will require we all find a way to work together or we are lost.
Although I appreciate the kind words as your confidence in me, I want to make it clear that these posts are not an attempt to put myself in a leadership position. It’s not some takeover bid.
I’m a trainer. Trainers gotta train!
I hear you loud and clear Max.
My apologies if I put you on the spot. I think you are a remarkable fellow and your example is a bench mark to me. In no fashion was my comments intended to nominate you as a leader.
Guys remember not all aspects of leadership are taught. There are many that just aren’t meant for it and many that are. A leader will show up trained or untrained but he better step up and take control. From what I’m hearing from you guys that were at the ranch, it seemed there was no lack of leaders (regardless of capability) what was missing was organization and coordination. Use democracy, nominate a leader of the entire operation, set your subordinates then do your job. When in charge, be in charge, when not, follow. Its that easy. This is not a secret training method this is playground rules for grown ups. Max and the rest of the cadre give training in hopes that each student will go back and lead and potentially be the instructor for their group. As Max says, we are teachers, and all of us have been in charge and been leaders. I was in charge of 120 US infantrymen and 400 Afghan soldiers once. There was no class for that, theres just making organization and properly planning your operations. Combat Patrol class again will give you more methods on how to be a proper planner and know what you are talking about when in front of soldiers but at the end of the day its about who you can be. Will you lead? Will you follow? whats your role?
Check your ego at the door is not just a catchy phrase.
The bottom line is that when it comes to situations where we may all have to depend on each other, whatever it may be, egos like the anonymous poster described are gonna get a lot of people killed.
The best leaders typically are the ones who have all the skills and the knowledge, but don’t want the limelight.
In a situation like the bundy ranch, If you have to whip your dick out and blow off about how operator as fuck you are, you will suck at leadership.
Great stuff, Max, very interesting. Keep up the great work! And, keep handing out the free chicken, please. I’ll gladly pay you for training when I can honestly believe I am in decent enough shape physically to not be wasting your time. I’m working on it. Reading CONTACT! is a great motivator.
One of the commenters above mentioned John Galvin’s awesome book The Minute Men. I can say without a doubt this is the most important book I’ve ever read, well you know, after CONTACT!, of course! Seriously though, Galvin is a retired NATO commanding general who did a ton of research into the history of the colonial American militia system, including literally going to the small towns throughout Massachusetts and digging into their town archives to find meeting minutes and muster reports from the late 1600’s through the 1700’s, etc. He wrote the best explanation of how the minute man system developed (hint: it developed over 100+ years of experience in the field and organizationally, not “overnight” in the mid-1770’s when the colonists got pissed at having the British Army pushing them around in Boston as is popularly believed). There was strong local organization of the militias, with statewide organization above that and state “select team” forces comprised of the best from each of the local militias. There was some inter-state and regional coordination, but not much. That weakness was overcome by very strong deeply ingrained state/local militia organization, established chains of command, etc. The militia units eventually all displaced their Royal-governor-appointed officers and elected their own new officers, but those officers filled in an existing command structure.
If there needs to be a fight for freedom in this country, we will not have that kind of thing again. The best we can probably achieve, unless folks like Max et al can establish something better organized, will be more akin to what happened in eastern Europe during WW2: Various partisan groups, some inter-connected, many not. Varying loyalties (e.g., to the Red Army at some times, to each other at some times, to no other groups much of the time), varying reasons for joining the fight, varying goals, varying willingness to work with others. That will not at all resemble what we had here in the 1770’s. But hey, the partisan forces successfully fought the NAZI’s and ultimately won. Uh, with the heavy lifting being done by the Soviet Red Army, which we probably will not want or get helping us.
I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in freedom read John Galvin’s book. It is out of print, I believe, but it is available online from Amazon, among other sites.
Oh, two other really important things that I learned from reading Galvin’s book: We won the Revolutionary War because 1. Our guys trained with live fire. The British Army did not have enough supplies of gunpowder and lead to do live fire training; 2. Our guys included many with actual combat experience from the French and Indian War, but the British Army had a majority of troops that had never seen live combat.
I read a lot about the history of Colonial America and our Revolutionary War. It is true that our forces were fighting for their freedom and for their home country and those are very powerful motivators. But many of the British troops believed strongly that the Americans were a bunch of bastards who needed to be taught a lesson and that attitude does carry a lot of useful energy and determination into battle. We can count on the enemies of freedom having the same attitude about us, if it ever comes to fighting.
Max, no offense intended when I referred to the British Army in the above post. History is what it is and we’ve been aligned in the same coalition with our British brothers for far more time than we ever were fighting each other.
The various militia generals, colonels, and other interested parties need to get it in their heads that they are not going to ride in from out of town and take over an operation.
Conversely, the current principle of get there first in order to be in charge isn’t working so well either.
What operations this year show (Bundy Ranch and TX border) is that there are a number of people who will contribute tot he success of those operations, but they expect their money and efforts to be used wisely by enlightened leadership. I’ve seen that personally at the TX border operation I saw earlier this month.
The situation has convinced me to put together the militia unit leader’s course. Of course, the people who could benefit the most from it will never attend.
Been thinking about this complex issue for some time and mostly stayed out of the conversation until I had my thoughts in order.
I like to strike a balance in all things so here are my thoughts:
1) The OK concept is persuasive and Stu by all accounts is a good marketer. I have met him and liked him and still do. Problems with professionalism or lack thereof (Justin et al) ALWAYS happen in such organizations..
I believe as a whole they still deserve our generalized assistance.
2) Even if many in this hard core comentarriat don’t respect their leadership all that much anymore, based on recent actions and events.. as a whole the organization is still very useful and deserving of support.
3) Its original idea has a persuasive narrative that they (and the rest of us) can leverage in the big propaganda war for the hearts and minds of america.
Think about it? , lets say you are in the military, whats an easier sell getting your buddy into? Oathkeepers with their narrative or something that coule be called a “militia” (the latter being illegal for .mil)
4) Also even if confidence on Oathkeepers leadership is a low among some of us. think of them as a “Flux reheating Magnet” .. A device that takes in new force(s) that otherwise might not have found their way to you… And after some time in that group they may stay or leave but also become more hardcore and gravitate to the tactical side.
Or in other words the “Energy of Activation” is lower when recruiting people into Oathkeepers than into other organizations and as such that group can reach people that other organizations may never have been able to reach in the first place.
This is due to their persuasive narrative.
Once in there folks become integrated into our Liberty “Scene” and once that has been accomplished then the sky is the limit for their future utility for liberty.
Just some thoughts to chew on…
Perhaps I am a tad late to the party but let me comment. From my experience with Stewart R during the patrol class last January, I believe him to be a man of character but flawed like all of us. Yes, he got chewed on a bit by Max for a safety violation (not nearly as much as I did) but he got over it. After the class he, F, and I discussed our experiences with the class. He was very positive. I wrote my AAR but Stewart never got around to writing his. Too much on his plate, I believe.
I don’t know anything about this Justin character. It it clear that he had his own agenda. I have observed several instances when people have engaged in specific behaviors that were CLEARLY detrimental to OK. There is no doubt that provocateurs have tried to derail the OK mission. OK leadership has been disappointing in handling a number of events in the past year, and I have curtailed much of my own involvement.
I trust Stewart’s heart and motives, but there are organizational issues destroying OK. Sounds like Justin was right about DHS being there on the recce exercise: it was HIM!
Max, when my current personal situation resolves you will see me back for more training. I need to learn how to ID Ivan and I owe you some pullups.
Max, I called this morning.