Photos: Evidence of Drop-Leg Heresy!
‘Texas Frederic Bastiat’ sends in some photos, following comments about drop-leg loads and how he wears it in the comments section of the ‘Gear: More Discussion on Load-Out Options‘ post , in particular how he finds it more comfortable and practical than a standard battle belt.
Firstly, thanks for sending them in. My comments are as follows:
1) If that works for you, then there is no further need for discussion.
2) In the spirit of further discussion, I can see how the two high and tight drop leg rigs are a replacement for a light battle belt. By which I mean a battle belt that is just hip pouches, and no rear pouches. If that works, and the high and tight carriage method of the drop-leg is good, then fine. Point conceded.
3) A classic light infantry battle belt consists of the hip ammo pouches and also the rear sustainment pouches. It needs a harness/suspenders to make it work. It is a decent load, maybe 20-25 lb all up, and removes the need for the ‘rack’ of magazines as shown in the photos, worn across the belly.
4) In my opinion, the load on the PC, in particular the rack of magazines across the belly, does not look comfortable and does not look ideal for the activity engaged in, i.e. rural fire and movement. I would prefer, if wearing the PC, a light load on it, maybe just 4 mags across the front to reduce weight and bulk. Put the rest on the battle belt. Whether you have pouches directly on the battle belt or rig up a drop-leg system off it as this fella has done, that is not really important, just a detail of preference. For example, I have seen full battle belts with suspenders, but also rigged up with a drop leg holster, either off the battle belt or separate so it stays on when the belt is off.
5) Really, this system is not so far different form my FLC/slick plate carrier with drop leg holster system, which is fine but never as good for rural prone operations as a battle belt. Back to what I have said before, I think the way to solve all this is with a battle belt, slick plate carrier, and a lightweight chest rig that goes over the PC. This gives you optional components but also the ability to carry a significant amount of gear for sustainment.
Useful stuff. Thanks. Comments open! (Soon we will have a forum for free discussion of this stuff)
Edit: is there a belt in the third photo that is not worn in the two action shots? And if so, was this the one taken off due to it being a pain in the butt? A battle belt without suspenders, not really meshing with the rest of the system?
Max
A cliche- “METT TC dependent” I have a slick low pro plate carrier on, so I can take the load off the front if needed. The big chest rig in the first picture is quite large, but holds ample ammo and water. I didn’t find it overly cumbersome, and was still able to move quickly. The smaller chest rig in the third picture has 4 mags and a big blowout kit- so it relies on having a ruck or battle belt for water.
With the drop legs and big chest rig I can still sprint full speed, get low, and get up quickly
The third picture belt is the hip belt on my hill people gear ute backpack. It has molle webbing- I have two canteens, a NODs pouch and a FLIR pouch. Most comfortable pal I’ve ever carried. Coincidentally, that belt (called a prairie let by the fine folks at HPG) is removable and intended to be worn by itself. Very cool system
Thanks
Questions about your gear setup-
Is that a Mayflower lo-pro PC?
What chest rig are you running over top of it in the #3 picture?
How are you liking the arcteryx kneepads?
Have a pair myself- had to make a couple mods, but so far real nice. Buckles pressing on side of leg can get a little annoying after a while though…
yes, it’s a Mayflower low pro rig.
the third picture chest rig is an OSOE micro rig, with a radio pouch on one side with general purpose stuff, a VOK, and a CAT tq on the right side. pretty lightweight setup
really enjoying the arcteryx kneecaps, much more than run-of-the-mill tactical knee pads that are instantly annoying. they stay on, stay in place, and do the job well
I see.
Thanks!
Wait- one more thing.
How are the Taco’s holding up?
I’m pretty leery of those, because the bungee tensioning + open top (frankly, I still like flapped pouches)worries me. I see you have a multi-tool in there too.
Any issues so far with things flinging out the top when moving/running/etc.?
Any issues with the bungee catching on things when crawling around?
Especially on the leg and all, I’d expect it to be a snagaholic…?
Just Arandom guy-
This is in reply to your question below
Tacos pouches are really really good. I’ve never had one fail- you can turn it upside down and shake it won’t budge. Really good retention. We did a fair amount of crawling at that class, running through the brush, and sprinting. I remember my NODs getting caught, but not that subload. The costa has two straps to the belt so it conforms to your leg, and stays put. My drop leg holder is curved and stays in place when I run
As far as prone goes- in response to commenters below- agreed, it is naturally more difficult to get down close to the ground with a big chest rig on
Also- thanks to Mosby HH6 for the pictures. (They are from Mosbys 4 day small unit patrolling class from February in Arizona)
TFB,
I asked this in another post but you may not have seen it. I’m in Texas also, about 30 miles from DFW. What region are you in?
And now for the actual gear commenting-
glad someone else got to explaining DL’s before I went mucking about here, but I’m going to dogpile on the heresy wagon, as I wear a dropleg too- and *like* it! :P
As was mentioned in the previous “gear loadout” thread, this is how you do a DL- high and tight with a single leg strap. A solid company who makes a holster out of a solid (hard) material also seems to help greatly. If you’re (anyone- not specifying here) going to wear it down by your knee so you have to practically bend over to reach it, or flopping like a dead fish strapped to your leg, seriously- just stop already please. I grow weary of seeing that crap all over TV and internet, and people think it’s the “right” way to do it.
Same goes for a subload- with the addition that, imho, it needs to be slim- no more than something like pictured here.
Although, TFB, I am still *not* sold on that Costa rig… lol
One thing that also helps a lot with a DL holster flop/swing is if you mount it to a curved leg plate- for example I run a Safariland mounted to one of their 6004-10 leg plates. The single strap is much more comfortable than two (or just cut down a standard 6004 plate to get 1 strap, and you’ll have a spare), and the curve of the plate contours it to your leg so it fits snug with no bounce/flop when running, and helps stop it from rotating around to the front. The SF straps also have these great rubber stripes that, imo, contribute a lot to keeping it planted.
Another thing that can help with your personal range of movement is, if needed, modifying the hanging strap. The factory strap that came with my SF totally sucked- it was *way* to long, and so stiff and hard that it could not flex if I squatted or bent side to side. Then the BS velcro in the middle would split apart and then it would loosen up, and work even worse.
So I got some webbing that was much more flexible and had a person handy with a sewing machine make a new one up. Works like a charm now-I can bend and move without inhibition.
As a final note, as far as leg fatigue that has been mentioned goes- I am not an expert on this, as my long-term wear of a DL is limited. However, I wore my DL for two days of running around at a CRCD, and my right leg was not any more tired than my left leg at the end of class- they were both equally well-cooked noodles. :D
I don’t know nothing about combat, I do know an aquaintaince who did some intel work in Southern Africa who got shot at and he said you can dig dirt with your navel if you are motivated enough. All that stuff up front doesn’t look comfy when you need inches to survive.
As been said before everything is METT-TC dependent or as I prefer to say PoU.
BUT having said so, from a Bioengineeirng standpoint a drop leg is fundamentally disadvantageous in any situation that requires a lot of non vehicle movement.
Why? Because you are adding mass at moving parts. it follows that just like with cars every pound added at a moving part of the body is like adding 3 lbs elsewhere.
A parallel can be found with rotating mass on cars:lightweight wheels improve acceleration and braking way out of proportion to the seemingly little weight added.
Conversely even if the individual is in great shape adding weight to the “moving parts” that are legs, exacerbates the effect of the pistols weight on human locomotion.
PS: Also look at the bionengineering of men vs woman. Male homo sapiens are designed with locomotion in mind thats why extra weight adds at the stomach to minimize its impact on running, not on the legs/thighs which would worsen its impact of movement.
Leave it to F to come at it from that angle…
I’ve never had much luck with DL. I thought they looked cool then went on a 10 mile hike about 5 years ago and that was it. I’m working towards having a molle holster mounted directly to my battle belt, or like Max having it mounted to the outside of a single mag open top pouch. I also like the idea of having a single vs a double mag rack on your PC/chest rig for helping with staying low and moving fast and reducing bulk.
But you know what, if you can run it, and it works that is awesome and that is what matters. I hate having straps on my legs no matter what, but different bodies, people are built differently, and people move differently. If you train in it and rock it then ruck on!!
Thanks B!
Let me add not matter how comfortable r gi is that attaches to the legs. if your PoU involves alot of walking its the wrong rig for the reasons outlined above. NO one has that extra energy to waster of moving extra mass on the legs .
With mathematical certainty it makes the lbs burden much higher than it needs to be.
As Max says “1) If that works for you, then there is no further need for discussion.”
For me, I found elasticised/vecroed straps done tight enough to stop kneepads slipping around and droplegs (holster or sub-load) from moving around excessively caused me concerns about leg blood circulation and possible chafing.
Since thigh muscles are the engine room of movement, I want mine to have the liberty to do their job to the best of their ability.
Additional issues for me were:
– added awkward encumberance of legs (increased gait “waddle factor” for both shorter sprint speed and longer cross-country foot patrol) and consequent leg fatigue;
– hard kneepad noise when hitting hard surfaces;
– weight of knee and dropleg(s) add unecessarily to total gear load;
– restricted access/functionality of trouser/BDU cargo pockets.
I ditched the dropleg/subload and opted for neoprene inserts for the knee pouch/pockets in my trousers.
But if dropleg/subload rigs and strap-on knee pads work for you and others – sweet. :)
All the crap in the legs, even just from a DL holster, is annoying even just from the perspective of bunched up trousers. It can be annoying. I only ever wear neoprene knee pad inserts, it’s all you need. And getting all this on, including all then straps, takes time. Think about throwing your battle belt on when you get attacked…
good article….in that vein…I know this was addressed somewhere else, can’t find it…what was the consensus on the best 3 day pack to run with the battlebelt, without to much strain on neck/traps? Thanks.
F-
You’re right in everything you said, but be careful with isolating bio-mechanical components in your descriptions of system efficiency.
It is correct to note that any loaded mass attached to a lever with reciprocating motion is going to have inherent ‘inefficiencies’. The influence of the swing weight of the drop rigs are related to the pivot point of the lever (i.e. hip-socket, femur). The closer to the pivot point, the less ‘disruptive’ the rig, but any weighted mass on the lever is going to influence ‘efficiency’.
That said, if we are talking an extended dismounted patrol, there are other bio-mechanical dynamics that must be considered with regard to overall movement efficiency under load. TFB’s particular employment of these drops allow him to carry his loaded pack as designed (and it is a slick-as-shit design), that is, with stays transferring and stabilizing the pack and it’s load to his pelvis. The energy preserved by the efficient mounting of his pack (reduced sway (keep in mind, the 50lb pack floated on the battle belt generates a lateral reciprocating mass that needs to be overcome), and stable load transfer directly to the hips) over a day’s patrol might radically exceed the amount lost to distributing a minimum fighting load to the thighs. Include the load transfer from the shoulders to the hips, reducing the the fatigue in the upper torso resulting from unsupported carriage of load, and you might find yourself much more mobile and capable of handling the demands of immediate action…
In my experience with working with kit, everything seems to be a compromise, concession, an adaptation. The perfect setup eludes me. That said, TFB’s system strikes me as an extremely solid foot-patrol set up (with easy mounted flexibility). He’s dependent on his pack for most of his support gear, but this is a concession he seems willing to make for the comfort, flexibility, and energy savings it provides him.
Like you, F, TFB’s gotten out there. He’s invested some effort in putting together his kit, and then he rolled around in the dirt with it for four days with a man who is… well… not, er, commonplace.
I guess my point is just to caution against the easy misstep of looseing sight of the big picture by fixating on details… I know I do. Thigh rigs may not integrate well with some people’s systems, components and physiques, but with the direction TFB has taken his loadout, they make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me.
Keep trying to find things that work, and take care…
BSC,
you made good points.
I was indeed looking at in in isolation with the “all other things being equal” premise.
Exceptions based on effiencies gained elsewhere may and often do exist.
cheers,
F
PS: Even though I enjoy handguns and am competent with them, I prefer not to carry them and save the weight/bulk for water or ammo, but that is a seperate subject all its own and obviously depends on PoU.
[…] don’t have any of those. If I suddenly acquired some, I would make a spot. On a previous post HERE we saw talk about the use of drop-leg pouches and I make the point that these are fine so long as […]
G’day from Oz,
Gotta say that picture makes me cringe. Looks damned uncomfortable! You look very modern and up to the minute but I can’t help thinking after a few days tabbing around the bush you’d be knackered: short of breath with all that weight constantly pressing on your chest and with some nasty chaffing around the family jewels. Of course I’m very old and very old school. When I were a lad we were lucky if we had a webbing belt and body armour was something that only knights of yore wore (this was long before re-enactors too!). I’ve played around with various rigs since but I really don’t think you can beat a well-packed set of webbing for dismounted ops. The wrinkles in this perfect cloth however, is the need to pack as many infantrymen into the back of a bullet-catcher as possible, and the advent of universal body armour. I dislike the constriction of vests & chest rigs so much I’d be tempted to carry my rifle and my webbing in my hands if I was vehicle bound for any length of time. Land Rover mounted troops used to throw their webbing onto the bonnet while underway and if they had to bail they’d grab it and their rifle as the dove out. Not a perfect system by any means, but then I don’t think anything ever is.
Cheers
jtr