Blog

Guest Article: Long Range Shooters – by ‘Misfit’

MV: The author of this article, Misfit, has the professional background to inform/instruct on this  subject matter. Trust me.

———-

120209-Shooters-full

In regards to the great article (Guest Article: ‘Where do long range shooters fit in FreeFor SUT?’ by Skittles) I have few things to put out there.

Designated Marksman (DM): Based off of my experience I have seen the need and want to have a squad DM capability. This is something the military has struggled with in both training and equipping the squad. Also the fact the the M14 has remained in inventory for it to serve as a DM/Sniper rifle. If you look at recent history the acquisition of the MK12 was from the need of having such capability, the problem is that there was little to no training to implement and maintain this capability within the squad.

Giving the squad leader the ability to incorporate precision fire into the scheme of maneuver is a true force multiplier. Especially when collateral damage is not acceptable. This also gives him additional optics that he can use to his advantage. I would likely limit the squad DM to about 600m armed with a rifle that fires match grade ammo that matches the overall load out of the squad. Logistically it makes sense to have as many members with the same equipment. The 600m distance is what realistically a long range shooter in a combat situation will be able to reliably engage targets out to without the aid of a spotter. I know that there are a lot of guys melting down at this statement but I know this to be true, and that’s if he’s good. Again this is for the squad DM role. I don’t think having a guy patrol out with a long gun and his primary supporting a squad is the way to go. His role would be to engage high threat targets like machine-guns, comm, or leadership. This would be accomplished with his acquisition skills and training. He would also be able to separate with his fire team and be able to provide overwatch while the rest of the squad maneuvers. But again he is not autonomous and is still under the direction of the squad leader. (MV: ideal with the 12 or 13 man, 3 fire team squad)

Bilateral Exercise Forest Light concludes
Sniper/ Scout Sniper: The term sniper or scout sniper is a capability that can and will be developed by FreeFor. Every modern war has seen the rise and often fall post conflict of this critical capability. A lone gunman is already hampered by not being able to sustain as long as a team or bring out additional equipment, making him operate close to home or his closest network, endangering them as well. He is also more venerable due to limited security while he’s attempting to accomplish his mission. Ultimately as a lone gunman he’s not accomplishing much on his own if he’s not passing info up or receiving high pay off targets. The lone gunman that takes out a guy on post and rolls out will find that the post just gets hardened and filled with another watch stander making that target harder for next time. I would say the ” sniper” is a team not an individual. The team has the ability to run missions independently or in support of SUT. All the individuals of the team are trained to a specific standard but each individual brings additional skill sets to the table that enhances its capability. For example communications, photography, sketching, forward observer, the list goes on.

The sniper or scout sniper team would be selected based more off field skills than marksmanship. What good does it do to have a long range shooter not be able to get within range of his objective before he’s caught or captured on egress? There isn’t always going to be that perfect spot to conduct business that’s easy in and easy out and at the perfect range. Sometimes its going to be long range sometimes the terrain dictates otherwise and field skills will be of utmost importance. The long range capability should be at least out to 1,000m or more. This gives the small team the standoff needed to survive in a high threat environment. With that being said they still need the skills to remain undetected both before and after business is conducted, whether it’s long range shooting or collecting information. The structure, tools, and task of what a guerrilla sniper team is has and does is grounds for another article or possibly course.

Misfit

5104b21e80971.preview-300

———-

MV: there was a suggestion at the recent Combat Patrol weekend that I run a ‘Patrol II’ . There were various suggestions on this. Once of them was that I run a sort of advanced patrol/field craft class aimed at the recently discussed designated marksman role. The idea would be to spend three days concentrating on the fieldcraft side, leaving the long range shooting skills to another venue.This is a great idea and I plan on running with some iteration of it. I won’t, as a matter of principle, run specialist sniper/scout sniper classes on my own because I am not a qualified instructor in sniping. I will however  work on a course design and bring in experts (such as Misfit). I can contribute as a simple knuckle dragger with what I know of patrolling/SUT/fieldcraft and the deployment of such valuable assets. Watch this space.

Live Hard

Die Free

Max

29 responses to “Guest Article: Long Range Shooters – by ‘Misfit’”

    • “I would likely limit the squad DM to about 600m armed with a rifle that fires match grade ammo that matches the overall load out of the squad.”

      Based on that comment from above, I’d say the answer is no if your team is comprised of 5.56 rifles.

      • When I went through Benning, we trained at 500 meters with the A2. I consistently shot 4 inch groups with that distance over iron sights. Training IS the answer to the question.

        • Exactly right. I was shooting A2’s in Division Matches to 600 yards (prone) with open iron sights. Snapping in and training IS, as you say, the key.

  3. Good article.

    A 20″ AR with 77 graim Sierra Match Kings can do quite well at 600m, even with a 4X scope.

    I have one set up as a DMR with a Burris XTR 1-4. It will deliver regular hits on a D target at 600 with nothing more than a sling, but it gets dicy at the 700 and 800 yard lines.
    A pair of Steiner 10X50 binoculars would be good in the kit.

  4. 5.56 Is the worst possible choice for a DM rifle. With its severe lack of penetration at medium and longer ranges your minimum CAL. should be at least a .30 using a 150-172 gr. bullet. For a CIDG, having a “scout sniper” grade rifle, (or a shooter who can actually use one) may be unrealistic, But a military grade .30CAL. or a target grade civilian rifle with good ammo is well within the capability of the CIDIG.I think that “1000 + yard snipers” is unrealistic. There are not that many people who maintain that skillset. 600 yard “pinpoint” shots are far more in keeping with the skillset available to your “average” survival group or CIDG. As for semi-auto DM rifles; I believe it was Carlos Hathcock(spell?) that said that he spotted half of the men he killed by the sun flash off of the brass ejecting from their rifles.

  5. One answer to the caliber question would be to have the DM carry (as stated) the prevalent caliber of the team/squad (probably 5.56), unless there are at least one or two others in the team/squad that also carry a heavy caliber, such as the 7.62 Nato. Those heavy rifles, should be the same weapon systems (at least the same mag type), for interoperability of mags between the other heavy rifle team members. For instance, one or two team members might have M1A Socom/Scout, while another has a Match M1A. As I told the class last weekend, the main reason I’m a fan of 7.62 Nato (I was carrying an M1A Socom), is because it turns 5.56 cover, into concealment. With that being said, I also told them, that if we were going out on a patrol together (especially a long one), and they were all carrying AR’s, I would too, it just makes sense.

  6. Maybe the only issue the .30 cal people can give about the 600m limit is penetration and then its a matter of energy/section density and bullet construction.

    IMO unit interchangeability is a big issue. See Lone Survivor, if they would have had a special .30cal snowflake amongst them it would have been a disadvantage amongst many disadvantages.

    Speaking of .30 cal infallibility in my own experience I can say I messed up. Years ago I bought a Weatherby MK-5 Accumark .308 with synthetic stock as a dual purpose rifle, primarily to hunt but also for long range persuasion in a SHTF. Great idea huh? Nope, in the latest scare .308 was very hard to scrounge. What about .mil NATO stamped .308 equivalent? Worse results, the rifle is a light striker and will not reliably fire .mil ammo, but 100% certain on commercial. I might as well have gone out and bought it in 7mm Mauser to complete my snob persona.

    Moral of the story let Big .Mil do the testing of military acceptable tools. Any DMR tool I would build would be damn near exact as the MK-12 and not some special civvie version with special this or that, I squeeze trigger I want boom not the last .1 inches of accuracy.

  7. Ray, I agree with your assessment of the 5.56, to a point. I also don’t think reality lends itself to the average person carrying a 7.62 Nato. 5.56 is a stopgap measure that gives the team member (male or female)an efficient, rifle sized cartridge (pistol carbines are unacceptable for a patrol weapon, except in certain “specialty applications)in a lighter weapon that still has acceptable capabilities. It also lends itself to having a lot more rounds carried on the person’s kit for a give weight, due to the small size of the round, when compared to the 7.62 Nato.

  8. You misunderstand me Max; I am NOT trying to restart the great CAL. debate. I simply think that the .30CAL. is a much better killer at ranges above 300 yards. As most, if not all, of the AR shooters now carry carbines optimized for the 0-300 yard envelope. It seems to make sense to have the option to penetrate body armor and cover at longer ranges. Also; As to “recovering” “match ammo” How many governments use the 5.56 as a sniper or DM weapon? Isn’t the current “state of the art” 7.62 NATO/ .300 WIN MAG/ .338 (L-96 AW)? As far as I know (correct me if I’m wrong as I don’t shoot 5.56) no government or agency is producing match grade 5.56 for issue at present. My whole point is about SEA LEVEL 500+ yard KILL SHOTs. Something that the 5.56 NATO ball and 5.56/.223 match simply don’t do well. I make no case one way or the other about the AR-15/5.56 “assault weapon” debate.

    • Although fair enough, the assumptions are in your post. Granted, most sharpshooter rifles are not 5.56. I want Misfit to weigh in on this, because the MK 12 is. However, there is an assumption here that 5.56 is pretty useless, which goes back to the caliber debate, and there we go again with a whole string of comments on it. Granted, what sort of rifle and the caliber thereof needs to be discussed. However, interchangeability is important. Also, a lot if this is training. If you can’t shoot, it doesn’t matter the caliber, and the need for DM’s in many ways can be traced to a poor standad of overall combat marksmanship. 5.56 if shot by a trained shooter will do well out to 600. We are not really talking about destroying cover or materiel here. Brit army SA80 recruit shooting goes out to 400 on a standard range: if you get hit by 5.56 at 600 you won’t walk it off! And even larger caliber rounds are equally stopped by standard level III or IV plates, so what is the difference?
      Let’s discuss this in terms of the best tool both for the Dm job and also within the scope of operating in a squad that will most likely be AR equipped. Let’s not assume the 5.56 is crap. Fair enough?

  10. Excellent article. As for calibers I’d feel comfortable with either. Match your equipment with your squad makes sense. 5.56 is a hole in the body at any range and as MV said at 600 you won’t walk if off. This reminds me of the 9mm vs .45 debate. Pointless.

  11. This article wasn’t supposed to spark a debate on which caliber is more killerer at distance. Part of the point of this is the additional options available to a team that has a designated marksman, and that that marksman should be using a rifle with a caliber that is compatible with the rest of the teams ammo. If the group for some reason has ARs that all shoot 243 wssm, that’s what the DM should be shooting as well. Not trying to be an a**, just want to see more discussion on the usefulness of a DM.

    • Yes, thank you. People always want to revert to the fucking caliber debate and forget the real point, the learning opportunity, of such a guest post.

  12. It’s only pointless if those involved in weapon and caliber selection, don’t objectively evaluate all criteria necessary for success, with an eye towards reality. Theory, and/or a fan based subjectivity should not be part of the choice matrix, when it comes to combat weapons and ammunition selection, unless the popularity is due to the afore mentioned “reality” factors (no tacticool crap).

  13. For those who like to read and cannot wait for MV to stop watching YTvids and produce another book I can make a recommendation. A Marine sniper and his company commander wrote a book called “Shooter” that in part tells how they tried to change sniper uses from the lone team to being attached to a maneuver element as basically overwatch. Its also part story of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and coincidently the commander had earlier liberated the old Iraqi flag that was put over the statue of Saddam before it was toppled. Jack Coughlin is the name of the sniper.

  15. I have to ask….

    Im not a big fan of 5.56. In my opinion, the only reason to use it is the round availability.

    Why not build out your entire team with AR-10s?

    Im certainly not an expert, but i MUCH prefer the .308. As for availability, a designated marksman (and your team for that matter) should have access to reloading equipment. 30-06 is easily available, and can be disassembled for reloading in 308 cartridges. Its not preferable, but is a method of last resort.

    Where i live, i would bet every farm has at least 1 box of 30-06. As a matter of fact, I think the 30-06 could even be used by a DM.

  16. As someone whose entire history of combat training has been chronicled in my two AAR’s on this site, I appreciate all of this discussion. The caliber issue is something that a person like me (who is learning via reading on the web) can get drawn back and forth over. I have a .308 AR format rifle, and will shoot both it and 5.56 at the range. Given the amount of ammo required for a REAL encounter (none of this two mag loadout for super-ninja shooters) for suppressive fire, it is clear that a .308 isn’t practical for me. It just weighs too much. No question that it pokes a bigger hole in someone, and is more accurate at long range, but I don’t really see myself carrying 300 rounds of .308 ready to rock-n-roll. I was quite comfortable 300 rounds of 5.56, my rifle, and other gear on my belt while participating in training with Max.

    Each class has had someone using a .308 which makes a REALLY big boom. But the weight to carry ammo just makes this a non-starter to me.

    Anyone for a 6.8 or 6.5???

  18. I think the definition of “long range” should be based on the environment and the mission. Here on the prairie, 600m is not really that far. Granted, with a 5.56 in the wind it certainly is, but if I had the man power and time to put together a squad then 500m open sights on an echo sized target would be the basic standard I would train to. Same as I was taught on an M-16A2 a few years back.

  19. I also feel that the DM should be picking up where the standard rifle ability of your squad leaves off. If your guys can shoot the lights out at 500m then you need something to push a little farther. If your guys can only shoot 300m, then it’s time to train not fight.

  22. Thanks to Misfit for he great article. I prefer a 7.62 out to 800 yards and .338 beyond. But again if the SDM can hit his target with 5.56 or whatever he is carrying, then mission accomplished in my opinion. Hits with anything would at least get within the OODA loop of your opposition if notbstopping them.

  23. A late post on a very interesting article. The DM as described in the post is best used as an overwatch asset in a large (USMC sized) squad. Security is paramount, continuous, and 360- for the unit and every subordinate team. Having a 4 man team dedicated to the DM/overwatch role would be great, but you go to war with what you have, and you may not have that many trained people. That said, I would rather employ a good DM team supporting a rifle team than just a straight rifle squad (METT-TC dependent). It’s easy to get caught up in what is ideal when you are fighting on the interwebs, but at zero-dark-morning, you just want your squad to function. That means everyone knows their job, has their gear, and can execute both on command and by initiative. Too much credence and too little thought goes into the DM role. A good DM is very limited without a good squad leader. I’m amazed at how little debate there is about developing effective small unit leaders. Instead, there is endless crap about caliber and gear. Then again, it’s easy to criticize guns/gear, and much more personal when it comes to effective leadership. Shoot/Move/Communicate.. with an over-emphasis on Move. How is you squad going to make movement with your DM team in overwatch? How far? METT-TC much? That is why having a weapon system that is compatible with the squad is so important, there will be times when the DM team must function as a rifle team. The SHTF world will not be a scout/sniper only event. Knuckle draggers in the know understand that properly used smoke and maneuver with a numerically superior force will eliminate a Sniper/DM team if they are not supported. Before you say, “well gee, I will ambush ’em!” I hope you have your IPB in place and are not fighting on your doorstep.

    Thanks MV and Misfit for a great post!