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Gear: More Discussion on Load-Out Options

I recently posted about ‘GEAR: Your load-out options: discussion & comments.’ As I was surfing the interwebz I saw a post on TSLRF that sparked my interest: ‘Fighting Load Contest #9 Archer Garrett.‘

I’ve been chewing on it for a while. What sparked my interest? It was the fact that Archer uses a military surplus FLC Molle vest as the basis for his load-out. Cheap and practical. Just enter ‘FLC’ into Google Images and see what you get. Interesting stuff. Thing is, you can get an old desert version of this vest off Amazon for $17. HERE. Yes, you need to buy the pouches. Krylon will amend the color.

Basic surplus FLC:

FLC_Desert_Amazon

$119 on Amazon will get you the ACU version with some pouches (Krylon will fix the ACU):

FLC_Amazon_ACU

I am sure there are multiple other options you could get with research.

However, you are probably asking: “But Max, why? You only ever use a battle belt! Did you lose it?” Well, today I want to talk about the FLC and a little about the battle belt. I am also going to follow up with a post on load-out  profile considerations.

FLC: I have one of these, which is what sparked the interest. I was issued one (I’m in the US Army Reserves), and I have amended it from the basic issue. It also suffered an accident with a can of Krylon, which has toned down the ACU nastiness. The stuff of First Sergeant’s nightmares! ;-)

I talked about this kind of option in the previous post (GEAR: Your load-out options: discussion & comments) and this is the kind of gear that I was referring to.  It is set up as an ops vest/chest rig, used in conjunction with a larger patrol pack, and is suited to operations where you are operating out of vehicles.

Here is my FLC:

MVT_FLC_Front

Front view: (from left): Bottom row: IFAK, admin, 6 mag single pouches (3 x 9mm pouches on front), 4 mag X-4 pouch, canteen pouch. On top row, from left: seatibelt cutter, admin pouch, leatherman, GPS. So, I can have 10 mags, my IFAK, canteen and various ancillaries on this rig. So it is a mix of chest rig and front load sustainment rig. I limit the magazines on the direct front to single stack to try and reduce the amount of ‘belly’ on the front, so that even with body armor I still have a chance at going prone.

Rear View:

MV_FLC_Rear

The important thing to note here is that I amended the FLC. Normally it opens on the front like a waistcoat, which is convenient, but it does not adjust rapidly. Not good for body armor/no body armor switches, or even clothing layer options. What I have done here is reverse the belt, so the rig goes on over the head like a H-harness, and buckles up with one adjustable buckle on the rear left. This also allows pouches (such as my magazine and admin pouch), to use the full front of the vest, not being divided by the zipper. The thing is, I really like the FLC, it is versatile, comfortable and does a good job, with or without body armor. Oh, if only I didn’t have to go prone to avoid dying, it would be the total answer…;-) (as with all chest rig/assault vests!) Remember, if the shit goes down SHTF, you will likely be outnumbered and outgunned, so you can’t stand tall and fight, from your armored Hummer/MRAP!

Here is my Camelbak patrol pack. Love this guy: as a 3-day pack, not a full ruck:

MV_Patrol_Pack

So, this is how I am rigged for vehicle mounted operations. If something happened where I had to operate out of vehicles, or even had to pull QRF sitting/sleeping in a chair, this would be a good rig. It un-asses the pouches from your rear/butt. I have the option of grabbing this and loading it up to go if it suits better than my battle belt.

It is NOT AS GOOD as a battle belt for dismounted operations. It is designed to better allow sitting, and not so much for going prone. It encourages a standing/sitting/kneeling posture and fire positions, somthing that I have talked about before – the prone is vital when the bad stuff really starts coming, and many have a real problem with operating prone. So, this is not an option or an excuse that is better than a battle belt. It is simply an option based on anticipated deployment. My Camelbak patrol pack works equally well with my battle belt and fills the role of a three day patrol pack very well. You can’t fit the kitchen sink in it, which is the point. You don’t want to.

A rig like the FLC goes very well with a drop leg holster. I have a Specops-Brand version which is very good and sits tight to the thigh, not too low in a tacticool manner. Remember that, again, a drop leg is not ideal for running/prone/fire & movement light infantry style operations. For that, the handgun is best on your belt.

If I was rolling into vehicle mounted / urban style operations, I would consider wearing my FLC with drop-leg holster.

A couple of notes on battle belts: I posted about my battle belt here: ‘MVT BattleBelt – Evolution‘. in no particular order:

  • A Battle belt needs suspenders. If I ever hear of anyone having comfort or mobility problems in one, I know they are probably either:
    • putting pouches forward of the hips and/or:
    • not using suspenders/harness, which forces them to tighten it up too much on the hips to stop it falling down.
  • A battle belt can be made to work in vehicle operations by removing the sustainment pouches from the rear. This will give you great options for hip mounted ammo pouches/IFAK/holster etc. You need to deconflict the pouches with any chest rig/armor you are wearing, often by letting it ride a little lower on the harness, loosening it at the hips. This can spread out load bearing options from the chest/belly, as per the FLC above, and move some of it to the hips.
  • I am still very much in favor of the concept I posted about in my previous post, being researched by UW Gear, of having an optional chest rig/battle belt/slick PC system that works together and in its component parts. Chest rig for in vehicles, put the battle belt on with a ruck or patrol pack as well for when moving out into the boonies.
  • I have no time for drop leg ammo loads and similar. A battle belt used as a support for drop leg ammo pouches is an abomination. As a general rule, keep stuff off your thighs for operations. A drop leg handgun is my exception, if it is better to wear it there than on my belt. Those drop leg ammo pouches are just not a real practical act of war. If you want more ammo pouches, off your chest rig, then rig up a decent working battle belt and have them on your hips.

So why all the talk about the FLC? I know many of you prefer a chest rig to a battle belt option. Many are concerned with working in vehicles/bugging out etc. The FLC vest provides a cheap and versatile option for mounting pouches to in many configurations. You could wear it with or without a battle belt. You could minimize pouches to give it a lower profile and fitting it as a waistcoat beneath a jacket. Or you could go full grizzly, like the photos of mine and have it rigged up as a full battle load. I find the FLC very comfortable, and with the belt reversed it fits and adjusts very quickly. 

Just don’t lose sight of the fact that if you are going to be doing light infantry stuff, then a battle belt will serve you better. But have options. Even for urban stuff, many lose sight of the fact that going over walls and similar is easier in a battle belt, with your belly free, than it is with a chest rig on.

Live Hard.

Die Free.

Max

48 responses to “Gear: More Discussion on Load-Out Options”

  1. I’m really glad you posted this. I have been debating over the past month to set up a BB rig similar to yours or go with the FLC (looks like the guy from Mason Dixon uses that???). I would like to have both, but finances only allow one for now.

    I’m guess if you could only choose one or the other, it would be the BB, correct?

    • JC has a Tactical Tailor vest, I believe.
      In terms of a stark choice between one or the other, that’s a hard one. “If you could only have one set of gear.” You might have to choose the FLC due to overall utility including on vehicles. Compromise rather than an ideal solution.

      • Interesting but that makes sense. More I think about it, the FLC would actually be a good choice for the spouse as well. She’s short and small framed. The FLC would really be like a BB for her, plus we’d have matching gear! (How cute!)

        • Great, now everyone wants to buy FLC’s, which wasn’t really my point….grrr…;-)
          And no more links to good deals please! Its not my point….

          • Ive had it on my mind for some time. My guys all swear by the MOLLE, but I’m an LBE and Ive been resisting. Even after they relentlessly taunted me with names like “Father Time” at the army navy store Sunday while I was sifting through a pile of stinky ALICE kit…

            However I dropped the hammer on it today as not to pass up a good deal.

            We shall see..

            Bergmann

  2. Max,
    Thanks for showing me the reversal of the belt on the FLC at the first CRCD class back in May. I like being able to use the whole front.
    I have the krylon ready to take it from desert to a woodland color.
    I like the battle belt. I had an old set of H-style suspenders that I use with the belt. I never liked the old y-style and didn’t want to get some of the newer over padded straps that might interfere with my ALICE Large Ruck.
    Now I am working towards getting a plate carrier and some plates. (With the developments in CT, HH6 sees a need for more gear/protection).

    Take care!

    Dark Knight
    Scott

  3. My local Surplus store sells those FLC’s for anywhere from fifty to seventy five bucks depending on the condition.

    I have a UTG tac vest that I bought several years ago that fits well, has room for 6 ar mags, a light/knife pouch on each side of the belt, storage for 3 pistol pouches, a holster, a small pouch for whatever, and a radio pouch on the upper part on the left side. It also has a place for a camelback bladder, and alice style webbing (PALS)on the back for additional pouches.

    Not ideal, but it served me well when I would go shooting with friends and we had to walk a half a mile to get where were going to shoot. And I guess it would work in a pinch for mounted operations.

  5. Max! I have a question about thigh rigs. Like Bergmann I operate in Alaska,in my case S.E. Alaska which has lots of fallen trees, and because of that I grew very comfortable with thigh rigs(When slithering over a large downed tree they don’t stab you in the appendix or similar)..Is there anything truly damning about them in a patrolling context.I confess to not wearing one for more than a 2 mile walk.

    • Drop leg holster or magazine pouches? There is everything damning about those thigh rigs in a patrolling context.

    • Hit a few mountains with the weight of a leg rig on your legs. No to mention the beating your weapon will get if its an open rig.

      I dont even like bulky items in my side cargo pockets. For me, legs must be as light as possible..I wear shoulder rigs for side arms.

      Bergmann

  6. Dammit Max, now I have to pick up those extra FLCs and surplus MOLLE pouches I’ve been putting off before the prices go up!

    Also, +1 on the Camelbak BFM. Among other things, those side pockets are the perfect size to hold a 1 liter Nalgene bottle with nesting cup.

    • Side pockets will each hold six M4 magazines.

      Any ideas for repairing a quarter-sized tear at the bottom of the main compartment?

      • Depends on how pretty you want it to look and how much you want to spend. I’d just superglue a scrap of nylon or canvas to it and then coat it with shoe goo inside and out.

  7. Picked this up today..20$ for the main vest, 5$ for each additional vest..The triple M4 mag pouch will accommodate Ak74 mags.

    http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx48/bootnknife/DSCN54131_zps5c7a713f.jpg

    http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx48/bootnknife/DSCN54161_zps3ad62e1e.jpg

    http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx48/bootnknife/3026534e-0b54-4f09-a4a6-b3a2c61a147b_zpsa7055e70.jpg

    My old school rig..Will I totally convert? Dunno..The filed will decide..

    http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx48/bootnknife/DSCN54141_zps735fd805.jpg

    Twas a great deal. Glad so many folks turn their noses up to this kit so its stays on the cheap..

    Bergmann

  10. Question: how does something like this compare to a plate carrier with gear attached via molle? I have a plate carrier and had thought that having it setup with a few pouches would be useful with the plates removed; obviously the plates could be ‘added back’ as warranted.

    As far as operating out of a vehicle in a bugout situation (or other vehicle SHTF operation), is it impractical to have the battle belt ready to grab but simply have firearms and magazines immediately available in the car (hypothetical situation, not in violation of any laws at present, no animals were harmed in the writing of this question, etc)? I realize that it does take a few seconds to throw on my belt/harness, but it really is only a few seconds.

    Hopefully I a being clear enough in what I am asking. I’m simply having a hard time picturing the circumstances requiring a chest rig. Just can’t see it other than “jump out of the vehicle and INSTANTLY begin firing.

    • Refer you to the vehicle contact drills laid out in ‘Contact!’. Ambush, vehicle immobilized.
      Look, I’m not doing an about face on battle belts. I’m just giving options, and many are stuck in the chest rig meme, or will/think they will be operating out of vehicles.

    • ApoloDoc:
      I like the concept of keeping the plate carrier SLICK, so it can be added or subtracted as needed, without affecting the load out. It also allows you to wear it under a jacket, for low profile protection when not running rifle gear (think vehicle bug-out time). The chest rig allows you to easily add rifle kit over the body armor, and is much more comfortable in stand-alone mode (especially in hot weather) than a plate carrier, minus plates. It also allows you to change primary weapons, as in a dedicated chest rig for a Glock pistol, over the BA, again in a vehicle bug-out mode, which gives you weapons access while seated and belted in.

      When in full field kit, the chest rig augments the battle belt, by giving you space for ready mags, a BOK, and small FRS radio. This frees up space on your battle belt for more sustainment and E&E gear (or pistol gear if you so desire). So I prefer to use both. With a slick plate carrier, you can also add/subtract BA as required. But when not required, you’re not covering up your torso with extra nylon.

      This is the set up I’m working on for Max. As we field test it, take a look and see what you think.

  12. First of all, there’s nothing wrong with any of this kit. It will do, if you will do.

    If you haven’t read “Gates of Fire” yet, first, shame on you, second note the “combat load-out” a Spartan was supposed to carry. I suppose they had these discussions in their mess 2,000 years ago, give or take.

    The FLC is a great load carrying solution, especially in conjunction with (slick) body armor. It meets my main criteria, which is available, at reasonable cost. However (you that was coming didn’t you?) I have never had much luck with exposed mesh vests in the bush. I have found that it will snag and tear up if you do much crawling around in a jungle/woodland environment. So it doesn’t get any points from me for longevity.

    A better option, IMHO, is the old school woodland LBV (load bearing vest). They are not perfect, but they work reasonably well, and are available, inexpensive, one each. Just take the damn uber-padding out of the shoulder harness and you’re GTG.

    The reason I went with a minimalist chest rig design is because I wanted just enough coverage to carry the load. These vest style rigs cover so much area they are hot and sweaty when the temperature goes up and/or you are humping the load.

    Bergman, hang tough my brother, I too am kicking it old school ranger style. Don’t let the young pups change your evil ways.

    Straps on your legs are urban assault stuff. Real pain in the ass for extended ops in the bush. When you take a knee, whatever is strapped down to your leg wants to stay parallel to it, so the hanger contorts, and things have a way of falling out. This is why drop leg nylon holsters were shit-canned in favor of hard shell kydex. So many guys lost pistols (in training if you were lucky) that they were discontinued. You can see why this wouldn’t be a good thing for us (?). I am working on a field holster that addresses these issues.

    In the scheme of things, gear should be number 3, after training, and weapons. That being said, there are improvements that can be made, to optimize your kit for your particular terrain and situation. Max is in the fore-front of this evolution, doing T&E in OUR field conditions. We are taking this input and designing some good stuff. But in the meantime, nothing wrong with good surplus stuff to get kitted out right now.

    • Thanks for the encouragement..

      I got the rig together, so then I loaded it and even w/o getting it dirty yet I must say….well, I hate to say it but..its like this..you see..Well, it kinda kicked as compared to my LBE rig and there was no ruck conflict that, by my rules, will kill the deal on the spot. Whats more, and something I really liked was that I didn’t have to sacrifice an ammo pouch for camera kit because now it has its own pouch. I was also able to attach my 1911 directly to the rig excluding an extra shoulder rig i normally take out with me. And its camo already so no camo to replace every month with a spray can, it will just match the terrain better as its used and gets dirty..

      http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx48/bootnknife/7913ea20-a3ae-40ff-b5dd-a556e30b8bb1_zps3751b1fa.jpg

      But I didn’t surrender entirely, This survival rig is not a MOLLE chest rig like they have. They chipe about their chest rigs and I did have a survival rig i made up and I tried out and it didn’t impress me so much at all. There was no getting use to it, it just sucked and was too small. You need more in Alaska, period, as they will soon find when we do LBE only survival drills… The rig was some old woodland Molle base made by Tactical Tailor with standard issue pouches attached..

      http://alaska-evasion-fieldcraft-survival.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/41368011-russian-valley-out-w-a-new-chest-rig

      Bergmann

    • I was going to suggest the woodland LBV. It’s a good option for us cheap guys. I picked mine up locally for $20. It’s my go-to around the house or if I have to get in a vehicle.

      The pouches will accomodate 6 mags and still allow you to go prone. I have mine balanced out with a 3L Camelbak attached to the back. You can adjust the pistol belt up high enough to clear a low hip-mounted holster.

  13. Dodge and I were talking about this same kind of thing not too long ago. I’ve really been thinking about it for vehicle/urban environments and seeing it actually laid out really helps!

  14. I haven’t had a problem using a drop leg. I have Safariland and have it riding real high and tight with only the lower strap installed. I’ve noticed no excessive inhibition of movement, or conflict when prone, crawling, rolling around, etc. I have knocked my rear sight off square, but not sure I couldn’t have done the same if it were on my battle belt. Repeatedly hitting hard ground and rocks into prone with movement takes it toll on all kinds of things. The ALS retention system seems to be excellent so far as well.

    • That probably because you are using a drop leg correctly, and not as a ‘knee-leg’ thing flapping around your knee caps. The idea is to have it high and tight, just low enough to not be interfered with by your chest rig or whatever.

    • A couple of things. Have you done any extended patrolling with that set-up, as in 5 days straight humping? If so, drive on. I have found it’s extremely uncomfortable to have any strap around the leg, especially up near the crotch. Especially in hot, humid weather and/or swampland/riverine patrol.

      Not calling you out, just saying, bring it to Max’s and run it for 3-4 days straight and see if you think the same thing.

      As a stop-gap measure, you COULD un-do the leg strap for infil into the target area, and then rig for combat when required.

      Also be careful with the ALS is extreme field conditions. It CAN clog with dirt, sand, debris and lock the pistol in. I love that holster myself but would not trust it (uncovered) for field patrolling. Now throw it inside a cordura cover with a top flap and we’ll talk!

      • I’ve done multiple days more than a few times. I’ve done it with Mosby as well. I wish I could do training with Max as well. Hopefully one day.

        I definitely do unsnap the leg strap often enough. I’ve run it through very wet dirty conditions completely clogging the whole unit with mud/sand/gravel without any issue, at least so far. My Glock and holster have seen better days though. That’s for sure!

  15. As an infantryman, I would not use a drop leg holster. Walking with these is a pain in the neck !

    • Next CRCD, I’m going to roll out my FLC and drop leg, and see how I feel about it in the woods. And as the instructor/safety, my exposure to F&M is limited.

          • Not my photos, so I don’t know the details, but I do know that is Mosby instructing for sure. I’m not real good at identifying the back of his head, but the lone action photo also looks like him, and has a similar gear setup as well.

          • Aha. Intel…;-)
            Suspenders/harness would be good on the ‘battle belt’…oh, let’s not let the games begin ;-)

  16. Max-

    It is likely that you were referring in part to my AAR from Mosbys class. I found the battle belt to be comfortable, but, when compare to having open hips, more limiting than the sub loads. I have found that having a drop leg holster (extremely high up Gcode ISS) and a very high up costa leg rig (doesn’t even go down past my pocket- I still have access to my thigh cargo pockets) I have better range of motion, especially for squatting (when compared to battle belt). I can sprint, sit in a vehicle, spend 4 days wearing them at Mosbys class, etc. they don’t flop any more than a battle belt shifts while sprinting. And yes, my battle belt has suspenders and pouches up to my hip line, but not out in front. Most of my mobility issues come from tight abductors from sitting at a desk all day. Without suspenders and with pouches up front it was very much not working, so I had changed it up.

    The biggest advantage, and the deciding factor for me was the ability to use the big hip belt on my ruck properly- which means the 50lb pack is comfortable, and the weight is almost all on my hips. I found the battle belt with ruck on top of it to work just fine, just not as coomfortable. Of course, comfort isn’t our first focus in the field.

    The way I look at it is that I have more options now- battle belt with shorter ruck, or subloads with my hill people gear ute. Both have attractive aspects, and both will be practiced and trained in.

    Respectfully,

    Texas Frederic Bastiat

  19. A piece of gear that I picked up cheap for the same purpose as discussed here is a USGI RACK rig, available in woodland and deseret Can wear it with or without a battle belt. Has anyone else used one of these?