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GEAR: Your load-out options: discussion & comments

After all the recent talk about rucks and gear in general, I think you will be useful to discuss the rationale, the options, and the factors behind how you build your load out.

There are lots of ways and means of doing this. Some of the confusion arises because people have simply not taken the gear out and gained any experience with it. Or, it is because people are copying what they see in the GWOT, or the SWAT, and are simply following without critical thought. You need make sure that how you rig your gear is suitable for what you’re trying to achieve, and also practical.

Granted, much of this comes from a failure of training philosophy. I have banged on about that ad nauseam, so I’m not going to harp on it in this post. All I will say is that if your philosophy for your ‘modern sporting rifle’ is simply home defense, and you think you can get away with a couple of magazines, in taco pouches, on your belt, then we are not playing the same game. If you decide the situation merits the carrying of a battle rifle, otherwise known as a weapon, then you need to gear up in order to feed that weapon. And anyway, the type of home defense these people are talking about would most likely come down to a barefoot, jim-jam clad, grab for their rifle, complete with whatever ammunition is loaded or otherwise attached to it.

This blog is about the application of light infantry tactics by the armed civilian in an unconventional environment. That stated, let’s move swiftly on.

You’re probably aware, as a reader, that I have been pushing the concept of the battle belt. For dismounted light infantry operations, it simply cannot be beaten as the means of carrying both ammunition and a sustainment load. It works well with both a patrol pack and a suitable ruck. But let’s be clear: a battle belt consists of magazine and sustainment pouches. It is a serious piece of gear that will probably weigh around 20 to 25 pounds, much of that weight being what would otherwise have to be carried in a patrol pack. It will sit around your hips and requires a harness/suspenders. I’m not talking about some kind of enhanced duty belt. If you try and use a properly set up battle belt without a harness, you will end up tightening it too much around your hips, to prevent it falling down, and this will be unworkable on operations.

Thus, the battle belt to which I refer is not some kind of super duty belt with a couple of taco of pouches on it. That kind of thing can stay with the three gun crowd. I talk about the battle belt, with photos, in this post: ‘MVT Battle Belt – Evolution.’

As an interesting anecdote: I was just talking to ‘Misfit,’ who has a background in scout sniper instruction. He explained how hard it is to get people to understand the prone. He and I are on the same song sheet about the prone. Everyone is used to doing things from a standing, sitting, or kneeling position. Even your high-speed direct action guys are rigging for stand up room entry type operations. Apparently, most of the guys he has trained, ended up running a battle belt, with the suspenders run under the body armor.That led to further interesting discussion about the lost art of camouflage and concealment. On the GWOT, an interesting observation is that most people operate in a reactive way. They drive or walk around on some sort of patrol until the enemy decides to hit them. Cue war stories. If you can operate as if you are under observation at all times, utilizing camouflage concealment, you can retain the initiative.

But let’s take a step back from the battle belt. Let’s pull back out of rural light infantry operations and approach this by looking at our options:

Current practice in many militaries across the GWOT is to wear a full set of body armor, consisting of soft armor and ballistic plates. This is combined with a lot of movement in vehicles. Given those circumstances, it makes good practical sense to wear your load-out by attaching the pouches to the front and sides of your body armor. Been there done that. This is not actually great for long-term operations, or for long time periods in the prone position. All the weight is strapped into your your upper body, including all the heat and sweat.

Practical notes on all this:

1) With gear rigged to body armor or plate carrier, it is difficult to wear a true battle belt, other than a few bits of gear on a duty style belt. You need to test this out, because you may find that there is a lot of interplay, crashing and banging, between a full body armor vest and the battle belt.

2) You will probably find that putting a pistol on your belt line when wearing full body armor won’t work that well, particularly if you have side plates and pouches. With this kind of rig, you’re probably better off with a drop leg holster.

3) It became cool to wear a handgun on the front of your body armor, up in the center of your sternum. Very ‘tier one.’ However, if you have a handgun rigged in the center of your chest, try patrolling with your rifle. Enjoy. A great idea for sitting on your ass in a Humvee, but not much else. Placing a handgun elsewhere may work better, more in line with the older school cross draw Blackhawk style vests. But those vests lose so much real estate by doing this.

4) Because a full battle belt needs to be lowered around your hips and supported in part by the suspenders/harness, it will not work with the drop leg holster. Unless you remove all pouches from the belt on the holster side, which kind of defeats the object of the battle belt. When running a handgun with a battle belt, it is best to put the holster on the battle belt itself.

5) Some of these issues can be got around by wearing a small plate carrier, which will work with a battle belt, rather than a full soft/hard plate set with side pouches. The smaller plate carriers limit real estate, so for example you may only have four magazines across the front. That’s fine, if you also have a battle belt.

6) In the military, it tends to be the case that you have to be ready to sit your ass in a Humvee for a lot of time. This made battle belts impractical. Because as a soldier you have to carry some kind of sustainment load, that tends to manifest itself with a bunch of pouches on your front. In effect, it is a battle belt sustainment load across your belly and chest. Again, that’s fine for standing, kneeling, and sitting your ass in a Humvee. That tends to go hand-in-hand with larger patrol packs, of the kind that will not go into a ruck, more designed for a three-day style patrols. That in itself is fine, I have talked about this in previous posts, and depending what you are doing you don’t necessary need a full ruck, and can pack light for shorter-term operations.

7) If you are operating in the military way with the front load, it is not necessarily the best thing to do to attach all the pouches to your actual body armor, for example the military IOTV. Why is this? If you are infantryman in an exposed position, for example where you have to dig in under the threat of enemy fire, you want to be able to wear your body armor and helmet while digging in. Someone will be pulling security, and as you work you need your battle vest and rifle close to hand. It is useful to be able to take the battle load off for such tasks. The Army actually issues the FLC, which is actually a really good bit of kit. Despite being in ACU color, which can be rectified with a bit of Krylon spray to dirty it up. The FLC is a MOLLE vest. Just like a chest rig, it will go on over body armor.

8) One of the conundrums as a dismounted battle belt wearer, is the fact that it does not suit for long-term vehicle operations. It doesn’t mean you can’t sit in a vehicle wearing a battle belt, it is just not ideal. I think the main time that this may be a worry is if you are bugging out, or perhaps conducting some sort of convoy operations post-collapse. Profile considerations may enter here anyway, and full camo and a battle belt may not cut it! It is therefore useful to have an alternative rig, such as a low profile chest rig. I don’t even advocate that this should be a plate carrier affair, as you want the option of wearing your plates or not.

9) As someone who primarily intends to be dismounted with the battle belt (and a battle belt works fine on an ATV, or in the back of a truck), I would advocate having a slick plate carrier available for wear as necessary. This slick PC can be worn with the battle belt, with a chest rig, or both. I would then advocate having a lightweight chest rig, something that can hold perhaps up to eight magazines and an IFAK. This can be worn, along with having a patrol pack available, for vehicle moves. If you are bugging out, put the battle belt behind the seat.

As an aside I would advocate that you carry a minimum of eight standard capacity 30 round magazines on you at all times if running a battle rifle. You can go up to 12, or balance that with a number on your person and the rest in your patrol pack or ruck. You can mix up between extra rounds in magazines, and in bandolier’s on stripper clips with a speed loader

10) I am hoping, in conjunction with the guys at UW Gear, to develop a system. I want the system to consist of a full battle belt, a slick PC, and a low-profile chest rig. I would like the chest rig to carry from four up to eight magazines, but perhaps only routinely carry four. The chest rig can be worn in conjunction with the battle belt and the two will not interfere. There can be an IFAK on one side of the chest rig, allowing additional gear to be carried on the battle belt, whether more medical gear or something else. The movement of at least four magazines to the chest rig allows real estate to be freed up on your handgun side on the battle belt. This allows the handgun holster to go on the battle belt without worrying about losing magazine pouches. Alternatively, use a drop leg, and remove the battle belt pouches on the relevant hip that interfere with the the draw stroke. A low-profile chest rig like this will not interfere with the prone position. It will give you options, such as easier traveling in vehicles, or a lower profile by wearing it under a light jacket or shirt. It is not so in-your-face as the full camo battle belt infantry soldier option.

In conclusion, there are a lot of factors to consider when working on developing your loadout. You need to realistically consider what you will be doing. I suggest that although you need the ability to travel in vehicles in a tactical manner, that will not be the priority in a post-collapse environment. You need the ability to wear or not wear your plate carrier. Operating a tactical environment post collapse is a mixture of survival and tactical operations. That is why you need your gear to be rigged to carry a sustainment load, and also allow you to operate in the prone position. It’s not tacticool square range CQB shite. Camouflage & concealment, the ability to take cover in the prone position, the ability to infiltrate and retain the initiative, are vital.

Till Valhalla!

Max

51 responses to “GEAR: Your load-out options: discussion & comments”

  2. Max, great stuff as usual, keep it up. I am looking at a product that has been discontinued (found one used)and am wondering what our thoughts are, and if you have any experience with it. The product is the Blackhawk Strike LBE. It seems as tho I could lengthen the adjusters to the belt portion rides low on the hip, and the rig would bridge the gap between a battle belt and a chest rig; while still being friendly to rucks, hydration carriers, and a slick plate carrier underneath. Any insight you could provide on this would be most appreciated.

    • There is nothing wrong, per se, with the old “LBV” concept. I ran one through the late 80’s and into the 90’s. Yes it does bridge the gap nicely between the chest rig and belt kit. Incidentally they are available ridiculously cheap on ebay in the old school woodland. Some key points though. The shoulder pads are ridiculously padded. The rear lumbar pad serves no real function when worn with a ruck or assault pack. Snaps and Velcro on the pouches. Yeah they work but are prone to breaking/ wearing out. With some mods it will work, but we went with a chest rig design because it does the same thing without a lumbar panel, freeing up the back for a ruck.

      Bottom line, it will work in a pinch, but we are doing improvements to it. If that’s all you have available, and/or can afford, drive on. If you have the resources, consider what we’re doing.

  3. Max, you’ve summed up every iteration and evolution and frustration I’ve had over 20 years of dealing with this stuff in the military. I’ve lived through the transitions from ALICE/LBE to LBV to MOLLE and IBA then IOTV and now trying to come up with a workable solution as an armed citizen with one foot still in the military.

    Needless to say, I never stop fiddling with my kit.

  4. We are really excited about working with Max on this stuff. Very few people have paid much attention to old school woodland patrolling in the past few years. Once they take a course from Max, they come to understand the realities of the game, from fire and MOVEMENT, to weapons and equipment. So the important point here is this new load out we’re working on is being driven by actual field experience, in how we may have to fight, not what’s trendy in the tactical fashion world.

    The battle belt is the heart of the system. With input from Max, we are working on a belt that is rigid enough to support the weight, but flexible enough to be worn all day, even all week. The shoulder harness is a critical component of the belt. It’s being designed to hold the belt in place and also take some of the load.

    We are also working on individual mag and canteen/utility pouches that are all flush with the top of the belt, and use our tuck tab closure system. This about completes the belt kit, although we’re also looking at a field holster design as well.

    Next is the chest rig. Based on input from Max and others we are adding some improvements, such as BOK pouches, expandable 1-2 mag pouches, and small radio pouches. This frees up room on the beltline for pistol gear and such. This will also integrate with the belt shoulder harness.

    In conjunction with these efforts we are also working on ALICE/Molle rucksack improvements/modifications. The goal is to fully integrate the ruck with the belt kit. The ruck with sit on top of the shelf created by the pouches, and use the battle belt itself as a waist belt. The shoulder straps will work in conjunction with the belt straps. Borrowing from internal ruck suspensions, we are trying to maximize the use of load stabilizing straps.

    We will have prototypes up and ready for testing soon.

    The point being, look at your load out in terms of how you might actually use it, and see if you don’t agree with what we are doing.

    • Not much I can add to what Diz said other than ditto. We just ask that everyone be patient as we try to get things dialed in. We are a two man operation, and are currently running 5 months on our lead time. There are only so many hours in a day to work, and the vast majority of that is devoted to getting our paid orders that customers have been patiently waiting for made and shipped. We’re trying to work in the R&D on the new items as much as we can though.
      Having a system of gear, chest rig, belt rig, ruck(s) etc.., that all works together is key in our opinion. Its lets you use whichever combination of the pieces you want, for whatever your mission calls for.
      What we’ve been making and doing, and what we have lined up yet to come, is not for hobbiest’s, gaming, or pretenders. ;-)

      • Everything you and Diz have said looks promising, and I thank you for everything you’re working on.

  5. Seems to me a simple redesign of the Vehicle seats would solve this problem. Just make a void in the seat for the Battle Belt.

    Note: I have never seen the inside of a Humvee or the outside of a APC. So I am speaking from an engineering point of view.

    • From a purely engineering design viewpoint, yeah that makes sense. From a practical viewpoint, no room in vehicle for space capsule-style melted-in seating.

      I have ridden in vehicles (inl HUMVEES) with belt kit and rucksack. It can be done, for short-haul purposes. Cramped and uncomfortable but nice occasional break from humping.

  8. Blue Force Gear makes some gear options that might be worth considering. I really like how they pay attention to the weight and bulk of the equipment they design.

    A minimalist plate carrier that’s about as streamlined as a slick setup. But it has some molle mounting capability due to an innovative design that removes material instead of sewing on additional webbing. Only weights .75lbs. http://www.blueforcegear.com/plateminus.html

    A full featured plate carrier without excess bulk. Still only weighs 1.5lbs. http://www.blueforcegear.com/lightweight-modular-armor-carrier.html

    Some very low profile pouches that would minimize bulk on the front of a plate carrier. The question that often arises on these pouches is one of durability but reports from the field are that they have lasted multiple deployments with just some fading around the edges of the mags. The retention is also better than expected and requires deliberate effort to extract. Only weigh .17lbs. http://www.blueforcegear.com/ten-speed-triple-m4-mag-pouch

    • Blue Force makes some nice kit. But I would consider what their target audience is. They are marketing primarily to police and military, and therefor to civilians who imitate that line of thinking. You mention reports from the field and multiple deployments. While that may be true for them, have you ever used it in your environment like you might have to employ it? I have found that open-top mag pouches are not ideal under woodland field conditions. I think you need a top flap, not only for retention, but also for protection as well. I might prep a mag or two for actions on the objective, but in general, I like them cover and protected from the elements. If you are planning on exfiling to the back country, consider doing the same.

      What the police and military are doing may not necessarily be what you’re doing. We have talked to many guys that stated patrolling in Iraq and Ass’stan is totally different from patrolling in a deep woodland environment.

      That’s kinda the whole point to what we’re doing here. Developing kit that is optimize for OUR use, not somebody else.

  9. The gear setup used is ultimately determined by the operational environment and Mission. Max has really clarified for me the differences in loadout between mounted and dismounted operations for SUT. What I think is also in need of greater exploration is the differences between mounted and dismounted in an environment more advantageous to concealment, like during a bugout or prior to full scale social chaos. Max has touched on this issue in “Contact”, “Patriot Dawn” and even this article.

    Personally I’ve put together two separate kits for pre and post collapse situations. After testing I found I was unable to flex my military gear setup into a concealed role, especially when dismounted. If for instance I had to go on foot during a bugout, prior to full on chaos, the use of plate armor and a battle rifle would make me stick out like a sore thumb and draw unwanted attention in a non-rural environment. Ideally one would try to bugout mounted and with all of their gear. But shit happens and the foot-mobile may be what’s available, like following an EMP. In such a situation I’m certain that weight of equipment and concealment would be a top priority, being the grey man while moving through a declining world as efficiently as possible. The ramifications upon my kit for such a situation besides wearing civy’s are:

    • Non-Military looking backpack of a small to moderate size,( 1800 cubic inches)
    • Small plain shoulder bag that carries sustainment items,(Basic survival gear, rations, water and Ammo)
    • Folding 9mm carbine that shares mags and ammo with pistol
    • A carful choosing of all other items to reduce weight and bulk
    • Soft body armor

    With such modifications I can look like just some guy fleeing the area. The most notable loss however is the reductions in armor and battle rifle fire power. But in the operational environment that this kit addresses the most common threats will still be low velocity rounds. Anyone carrying a rifle will likely be government forces and those who aren’t will be drawing the attention of government forces. This gives one an increased chance for avoidance. While a 9mm carbine is by no means equivalent to a battle rifle, when loaded with +P, the increased barrel length does give 357 mag type velocities. Regardless, such a weapon grants credible accuracy up to 100yds to facilitate a break in contact, a far cry better than just a pistol. This kit is not ideal by any means but it prevents glaring holes in equipment, is low profile, and provides an OK platform to improve one’s situation. Besides can re-equip in the future at one of those many caches we should be making right?

    • This is a tough one. We are thinking along the lines of a dedicated Glock chest rig, with up to 6 spare mags. So your primary weapon is center-mounted and covered by a light wind shell. The rifle kit can be broken down and concealed in the ruck, or other bag, along with support and sustainment gear. This gives you access to your weapon when carrying a ruck, or when seated in a vehicle. Slick body armor can be worn in conjunction with this rig. Any loose or baggy shirt will conceal this stuff.

      If you have to dismount, the belt line can be worn under a windshell or parka, with the ruck worn on top. A “sneaky” bag or something similar could hide a broken down AR when moving through open or denied areas. Another option is a golf bag cart, with beat up, “refugee” luggage that could conceal an AR ready for rapid deployment. In fact, the “homeless” look gives you lots of options with multiple baggy clothing layers n shit to conceal stuff in.

      Dedicated 9mm carbine ain’t a bad idea if you can swing it. A chest rig full of happy mags would be a beautiful thing.

      And yeah, another complete load-out cached at your retreat location would be ideal.

      A lot depends on your exfil route. Do a map and route recon of your area and find the most covered and concealed routes beside RR tracks, powerline right-of-ways, and other high-speed trails, should you have to dis-mount. Travel at night, give all built-up areas a wide berth if possible. Look for the marginal areas that deer and other game hide in around urban and suburban areas.

    • This is along the same lines as how I’m currently set up. Including the 9mm carbine, low pro belt kit and minimal chest rig for 9mm mags. Nobody should fool themselves that a 9mm carbine puts you in the same league as someone with an AR or other battle rifle, but it’s nothing to scoff at either. Anyone wanna volunteer to get shot by one? Mine is scary accurate out to 50m and can easily hit minute of man at 100m. And that’s with iron sights. I’m moving a RDS to it as soon as I get some time to do some more mods. I keep mine in an old laptop back that has velcro dividers with spare mags and accessories. It’s always ready to throw in the car for a quick bug out or a general increase in the threat level in my AO. In a firefight, would I rather have my AR? Yup. But the idea is not to get into one in the first place when you’re alone and trying to get home or bugging out with the family. Not every problem is a nail, so a hammer is not always the solution. Having just enough firepower for an in extremis break contact forces a change in mindset that may help to keep one out of trouble. The light infantry patrolling kit is also packed and ready to go with the AR and plenty of ammo. The Glock works with both sets of kit as well as daily concealed carry.
      In addition to the other new kit UW Gear is working on, I’d love to see something along these lines from them.

      • I’ve recently been toying with the idea of running a low profile belt kit instead of the “manbag”. I think all the writings by Max has caused a case of “belt kit on the brain”. But I worry that it would to high profile.The carriage would certainly be superior though.

  10. There may have been discussion about helmets that I missed. I know it was discussed in relation to NVD.

    Is it appropriate to inquire about helmets at this point, or wait for the forum…..??

    • Helmets for NVD mounting have been discussed on previous blog posts and in comments but to sum up your head-mounted NVD options are:

      1. “skull crusher”
      2. Bump helmet
      3. Ballistic helmet

      Lots of options for all three categories in various price ranges from reasonable to outrageous. Mission should drive your choice of gear within your budgetary constraints and balanced against other more pressing needs.

      Cheapest bump helmet option is Pro Tec and cheapest ballistic helmet option would be surplus PASGT (old style Kevlar helmet) but to make the PASGT work well with NVDs you’ll need to upgrade to a pad system with four-point chinstrap which may make it cheaper to try to find a MICH/ACH on eBay.

  11. Hopefully, a new rig design will consider securing
    an ar carbine on your back and be mountain bike
    friendly. Personally, I’m keeping my pistol on my body
    and not on my rig.

  12. After several years in french infantry, I fully agree with Max. For me, the solution have been to mix chest rig with battle belt. My choice went to arktis advanced chest rig, which CAN be opened on the front, thus enabling to go prone without too much difficulty. The other good point about that kind of rig is that you CAN open it iot ventilate the upper body when walking in warm weather…

  14. So…

    I ordered this rig a couple weeks ago.

    http://theopsdeck.com/COMPLETE%20RIGS/PROD%20-%20CD%20LW%20Battle%20Rig%20G2.htm

    In O.D. green.

    Now, before anyone says anything, I understand what brand it is(Condor.) So before I ordered it, I called the guys that run the place where I bought it (TheOpsDeck.com)and talked to them.

    I told them that I had read some reviews of the Condor brand that were less than flattering. Of course, they said they didn’t have much trouble with the brand, and that their quality had improved over the years. They also said that I was welcome to inspect it all, take it out of the bags, assemble it, and if I wasn’t satisfied with the quality, I could return it for a full refund. So, I went ahead and ordered it.

    I have looked at several different “big name” brands that are out there in person, and quite honestly, I cannot tell much difference between any of them and this stuff.

    I sat here for an hour today before I assembled it, pulling like hell on all the seams, and stitching, and it held tight. The buckles, and webbing, and everything seem to be pretty much the as any of the other brands I have looked at.

    Because there is molle webbing on the front straps of the harness, I was able to attach my Rothco patrol pack via some straps I made from scratch through the molle. Side release buckles will make for quick attach/detach, and eliminate another set of shoulder straps from the equation.

    Overall, I am happy with the purchase, especially for the price.

    • Congratulations! You took an action and will work through the shortcomings of the gear. Please keep us posted on what you learn as you work with your kit.

      I have been in an update mode for a while. I recently put together an updated battle belt using lighter weight pouches and harness. I will be trying different things with it as we head into spring. The main difference from my old LBV configuration is that I used three smaller utility pouches to replace the butt pack for storage. This may not work as well as I hoped. Time will tell.

      I remain a proponent for a battle belt and ruck. I also like to use a three day pack for limited patrolling. Max is absolutely correct about using the three day pack in conjunction with a larger ruck. That combination adds a level of versatility that I find extremely useful.

      Don’t apologize for your choice. Work through it and let the group know what works and what does not.

    • I have been using this Condor rig for about a year including one of Max’s CRCD classes back in October. It is a great piece of equipment. I think Condor gets a bad rap as cheapo Chicom gear but it is well made and good quality at an affordable price. That being said, I switched to an ATS battle belt because of the molle straps on the Condor. Due to the way it’s made, the Condor belt has a little less available real estate than the ATS. The ATS belt has continuous molle whereas the Condor has breaks in the molle at the sides where the belt begins to curve toward the back. The ATS belt allow two more pouches to be attached. More pouches = more stuff. I still have the Condor and wouldn’t hesitate to use it again and may set it up for a mission-specific scenario. Just my 2 cents.

  15. Max and friends

    What i have found to work well for me is the Eagle industries H-harness set up with a slick plate carrier. I combine this with an assault or long range patrol backpack seems to work well with me. Have not had a chance to do real training with it yet but, working on that.

  16. Lots of good discussion here. Missed y’all, life has kept me hopping so not much time to keep up with your blog, Max. We need to chat about the Thermal Poncho when you have time.

    The Condor gear is what I ran at the CRCD class in Dec and Patrol Class in Jan. It worked quite well. I ordered all the bits separately as they weren’t doing a package 2 months ago. Riding back from our ASSAULT (final part of Patrol Class) in Max’s 4 wheel critter, the battle belt DEFINITELY did’t work well. But it was great for everything else. I have done several extended hikes at our BOL with it and a rifle. Comfortable and efficient.

    Multiple tiers of gear…under differing circumstances. Yep, absolutely. In fact, I just ordered the pieces to put an AR-15 ‘pistol’ together. With a 12″ barrel, it will perform adequately w/ standard ammo. It is easier to conceal if needed. Honestly, a Steyr Aug is a more balanced and effective piece of equipment. But it has one drawback, as does a 9mm Carbine: they are both classified as rifles.

    Laws are different across different states as far as loaded rifles…but the AR ‘pistol’ falls under handgun laws. Carrying it loaded and concealed is no different than my XDm. Having it in the car is no different. See where I’m going?

    I want to have the firepower AND consistent manual of arms with my main battle ‘weapon’ and this does the trick. For those interested, Palmetto State Armory has a 12″ upper w/ BCG for $399 and a pistol lower parts kit for $99. All you need is a stripped lower and you are golden. They even have free shipping this weekend!

    Efficiency of gear is something I continue to focus on. Let’s keep the ideas coming.

    • Consistent manual of arms is key. When do you expect to have you parts assembled? Again, please keep us updated on how this works for you.

      I Handled a 7.62 NATO platform today that was patterned after the AR but had an FAL type charging handle. Had I needed it in a fight, someone would have handed me my head. I consistently reached for the charging handle of an AR and then corrected my movement.

      Do you plan to put an RDS on the gun?

  17. There are many choices of kit out there. Maybe too many at times. It simply becomes too confusing to sort it all out. And we all spend more time building new rigs than training.

    On Condor, I’ve heard good and bad. Let’s just say we’ll watch those who run it and see what happens. Longevity is one key issue. The other is the general design principles, which mirror the mainstream pretty much. But again, let’s just see how it holds up.

    One issue I have had with most battle belt systems is the mole attachment system. It is generally webbing stitched to one layer of cordura. This is so the customer can run any belt he so chooses. This system is optimize to work in conjunction with a pistol holster that attaches directly to the belt. And this mirrors the mainstream emphasis on high speed pistol transitions. Which is a central tenant in the church of the urban assault.

    Meanwhile, back in the woods, with Max and company, let’s look an alternative. How about a battle belt that is optimize for carrying a patrolling load out, with rifle mags and sustainment/E&E gear being given priority over pistol kit. What if you build it with the molle webbing stitched through all the layers for maximum strength and durability? Just one thought.

  18. Question about rucks…since this has become an all gear thread. I’ve been going back through and re-reading the posts on ruck admin, battle belts, etc and having a tiered setup. Regarding the packs, there are a few areas where Max talks about having a mid-size/smaller ruck and going with a travel light/freeze at night mentality. As I look at ALICE packs, the medium looks good to me for a 3 day patrol in my AO (coastal SC, hot and humid 9 months of the year). I’ve used a large alice and while huge I don’t need that much space for what I carry. My question about both the large and medium ALICE pack is regarding the prone, which is a heavy emphasis on this blog with good reason. Doesn’t the ALICE restrict your prone movement? Or is having to ditch your ruck to go prone just part of dealing with an ALICE (and another reason for keeping a sustainment load on your belt)?

    • Going prone with a large heavy ruck is not a good thing. If you are stopping deliberately on patrol either take a knee or take the ruck off and lay next to it, depending on the length of the halt. You won’t wear a ruck into an assault, and if you have to break contact then you will likely ditch it, if the situation is serious. Then you just have your battle belt, and if you have time, your grab bag/patrol pack from the ruck. That’s why it’s better to move without rucks, if you can avoid it, other than moving into a patrol base.

    • Like Max said, proning out with a rucksack is not recommended. If you are caught out with one on, your choices are to dump it, or go to a knee when returning fire. Proning out is so clumsy to get in and out of, and the ruck frame will possibly spoil your cheek weld, especially if wearing a helmet.

      Ideally, I would break contact with it on, if at all possible (distance to contact?), dump rucks, again ideally in the same general area, run some more, button hook on my back trail and wait. If it appears to be all clear, then we might try and come in from a new direction and retrieve rucks. This could be over night, kinda depends. Or if the opfor is overwelhming, lose the ruck, live to fight another day. Good reason to have several cheap ALICE rucks versus one spiffy Mystery Ranch.

  19. Right now I’m running a 5.11 Brokos belt, have a 5.11 TacTec carrier on the way for the second tier (when appropriate, my AO is suburban), and looks like a Medium Alice in my future. Why all the 5.11 stuff? It’s pretty sturdy and I get it for half off since my company sells it. I still need to pick up a harness for my belt since I will be loading it heavier with more mags and sustainment load. I was just running 4 but I think I will go to 6 mags on the belt with 3-6 more on the carrier if needed. Have Tacos on the left side (bought after my CRCD where everyone had Tacos and had better changes than me, who couldn’t fumble the bungee retentions off my magazine pouches with wet muddy gloves on) and will run velcroed pouches on teh back right when they get here.

    Thanks all for the continuing feedback. As a recovering gearwhore reading about people who use their stuff instead of putting it in picture threads on ARFcom has been great. And Bergmann you are an inspiration to us all.

    Baldrick

  20. Where does everyone stand on carrying spare boots? I do but I know a lot say its just dead weight

    • Couple of questions: 1) why do you carry extra boots; 2) how does extra anything fit into the mission profile?

      Load out is purpose driven. You should be able to describe the use of each piece of kit, how/when/why it will be used.

      I might carry a spare pair of boots were I working in the mountains and needed climbing boots with crampons or skis. If I am carrying them because my current pair might blow out, no. I would change boots before I jump off or repair/re-inforce what I have.

      Something that I always did pack was a pair of “camp shoes” so that I could air out my boots and rest my feet once I hit a RON. Too many guys do not take proper care of their feet. When you are a light infantry soldier, you live or die by your ability to walk.

      • Second the ‘camp shoes.’ Particularly in hot humid environments, something like a teva sandal packs down small, can be worn in your bag, and you can fight/run away in them.
        On a short term mission, unless for a specialist task, extra boots are the stuff of first sergeant packing lists.

        • The first sergeant’s packing list – that made laugh and shudder at the same time! Teva sandals are great.

        • Max, I didn’t tell you about another small bit of troop rebellion: during our Patrol Class, several of us discussed that wearing boots IN the sleeping bag didn’t work. Maybe that works for Brits but not for us Yanks ;). I have a lengthy history of Tevas or sandals on outdoor excursions. A pair to wear at the camp AND while sleeping is clearly a good idea.

          Recently I picked up a pair of Keen ‘shoes’ that basically have the upper cut into something resembling a sandal, but the sole is directly from a lightweight hiker. They are more rugged, sturdy, and supportive than a Teva. They are going to be my second level of foot gear!

          On an associated note: In a truly severe ‘crash’ scenario, there are many items that can be improvised and but some cannot. Most clothing items can be replaced with robe/poncho type gear under dire circumstances. Boots just aren’t something that most of us can readily make or improvise. I decided it was worthwhile to invest in two extra pairs of my recent choice in combat footwear. Food for thought…

    • First of all, everyone is pretty close to it, when they say this is bootcamp bullshit. Yes, you may wear out a pair of boots pretty quick in rocky terrain. But this is a cache item, not something for everyday carry.

      If you are worried about boots blowing out, carry shoe goo and duct tape. Yeah it works pretty good. Another good reason to look at inexpensive combat boots, and stock deep, rather than one pair of Danners.

      Seeing a trend here.

      • Second shoo-goo and duct tape. Duct will repair anything.

        Something we don’t discuss but need to consider is how to make tire sandals. They are rugged and the soles are readily available anywhere there are junk cars. I have a pair from the mid 1980’s that are still going strong.