Winter Warfare

View Latest Activity

Viewing 146 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #92110
      JohnnyMac
      Participant

        As the cold sets in for the winter in the northern latitudes, I’ve been giving consideration to it’s effect on combat operations. I kinda find it strange that winter warfare gets interpreted as arctic warfare. This is not meant as a winter survival type thread. I’m specifically interested in tactical considerations during combat operations below freezing.

        Part of me says it’s just a matter of sucking it up but at some point, cold weather WILL have an affect on the abilities of the unit.

        @Max @FirstSergeant @John3X , any key tips/considerations?

      • #92111
        BrigandActual
        Participant

          From my time living and hiking in Montana, I learned that sweat is a problem. There is a balance to be found between comfort in the cold via insulating layers, and the amount of sweat produced during exertion. Wet gear will freeze, and damp clothes will cause nasty problems once the exertion ends.

          It might have just been the rifle at the time, but I found that very cold temperatures caused rifles to have trouble cycling with low pressure ammo.

          Also, speaking of rifles, a lot of the fancy whiz bang stainless barrels out there are not ideal in very cold temperatures. They can become brittle and suffer durability problems.

        • #92112
          Robert
          Participant

            Only time I’ve trained in snow was first FOF class last year, it started snowing lightly during class.

            ACU pattern in general sucks, maybe decent out West?? but has anyone tried it in dirty snow conditions?

          • #92113
            hellokitty
            Participant

              Especially in NE, the loss of foliage changes the potential ranges of contact and increases visibility and observation.

              HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
              HEAT 2 (CP) X1
              FOF X3
              OPFOR X2
              CLC X2
              RIFLEMAN

            • #92114
              Socks
              Participant

                Funny… was just thinking about this myself. Don’t know why but maybe cause of all the damn snow up here in Michigan lol. One thing I really need is more winter specific hiking boot. Something lightweight but warm enough for sub zero temps and able to handle heasvy snow. But it also randomly gets warm and rains so that leaves me wondering gortex… no gortex… any experience and tips?

              • #92115
                JohnnyMac
                Participant

                  speaking of rifles

                  It’s not that big of a deal, but I’ve had issues in cold weather with inserting pmags. I think the aluminum mag well shrinks much more than the pmags, and so they require some extra force to get in. It’s not going to keep a gun out of the fight, but it would definitely slow down some reloads when you aren’t used to it.

                  Especially in NE, the loss of foliage changes the potential ranges of contact and increases visibility and observation.

                  Good thinking! The difference in one of my local hiking spots is substantial. In the summer visibility can be as little as 5 yds, now the same spot is 25-35yds easy. I’ve also noticed just how many thorns there are in places I previously hadn’t noticed.

                  A few other thoughts I’ve had:

                  -With snow on the ground, tracking can become “so-easy-a-caveman-could-do-it”. That in itself could compromise missions or complicate recces

                  -Snow could muffle footsteps if soft and powdery or heighten noise if it’s the crunchy type. Either way, it would slow down team movement (at least without skis).

                  -Cold weather could mean heavier loads for extended missions. This would have to be taken into account in conjunction with the team’s health/fitness. Rest stops on the mountain anyone?

                  -@Socks , footwear in winter has always been a tricky thing for me. I’ve tried lightweight hiking boots with extra insulation and got very mild frostbite on the tips of some toes after a few hours. After that, I got Kamik snow boots. They’re clunky and heavy, but they beat getting frostbite. I’m still in search of a high mobility cold weather boot.

                  -Someone without experience might mistake piles of snow for cover, a great opportunity to capitalize.

                  Some questions I’ve been contemplating:

                  -At what point does the cold start to affect cheap baofengs?

                  -Will standard EMT shears be able to cut through winter clothing to treat a casualty? Also, how hard is it to keep a combat casualty warm (enough)?

                  -From a tactical perspective, is there anything wrong with hand/feet warmers?

                  -You might have to change the way you store/carry water in cold weather vs your warm weather setup. Has anyone ever had a hydration bladder freeze while on the move? Mine never have, but maybe it wasn’t cold enough?

                • #92116
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    This is not meant as a winter survival type thread.

                    In extreme cold weather (ECW) they can’t be seperated.

                    Regarding electronic devices…

                    The real value of using Lithium batteries is there long life and superior performance in cold weather.

                    LCD screens can freeze.

                    In general know the operational limits.

                    Check out these Threads then ask questions.

                    Some cold weather training thoughts.

                    Cold Weather Gear- After Action Reports

                    Cold Weather Gear

                    Need advice on shelter options

                    The Ageless Zeltbahn….My Hard Weather Evasion Shelter

                    Observations and some advice

                  • #92117
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      -You might have to change the way you store/carry water in cold weather vs your warm weather setup. Has anyone ever had a hydration bladder freeze while on the move? Mine never have, but maybe it wasn’t cold enough?

                      Depending on temperature/time everything freezes and requires your body heat to keep it warm. Hydration bladder tubes will freeze first and are very succeptable.

                    • #92118
                      wheelsee
                      Participant

                        Our forefathers have some good information…….why re-invent the wheel???

                        http://www.rogersrangers.com/pdf/senior/locked/Jerry_Knitis_locked.pdf

                        Robert Rogers and the Early Ranger Warriors

                      • #92119
                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                        Moderator

                          Remember ECW is relative also, consider the following…

                          I have mentioned this case before…
                          4 Army Ranger Candidates Die in Chilly Florida Swamp

                          Col. Galen Jackman, commander of the Ranger Training Brigade at Eglin, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying yesterday that the water temperature was 52 degrees, just above the 50-degree threshold set in 1977 after two soldiers died from hypothermia during Ranger training. The air temperature was in the 60’s after several days of chilly weather.

                          Cold water (less than 70°F) can lower your body temperature, causing hypothermia. The human body cools 25 times faster in cold water than it does in air.

                          Remember those Rangers in the above article, trained physically fit servicemen with professional instructors providing supervision and still 4 died.

                          Lack of respect to these dangers is very costly!

                          Repeated for emphasis!
                          Remember those Rangers in the above article, trained physically fit servicemen with professional instructors providing supervision and still 4 died.

                          Lack of respect to these dangers is very costly!

                        • #92120
                          trailman
                          Participant

                            The links probably contain these comments. As someone who hunts. Heat management is the biggest issue I encounter. You need to manage layers as you go. Just a little on movement and you will quickly overheat and sweat if you are two heavily layered, then you will freeze on stop. I can soak just getting in 1/4 mi into a stand if I don’t strip down to a shirt and carry be over garments. Our CP class was a prime example. I’d look at the heat management as its won tactical problem in itself.

                            1Sgt probably has some good ideas on low temp operations of weapons from his alpine training but I don’t know what you are considering low temp. Around here that’s generally the 30’s, a clean lubed weapon should run fine. Temps will kill you in an hour but you can shoot.

                            Consider we just spent the week with our living history group in Colonial Williamsburg I can appreciate the RR reference. I love my 1756 wool clothing.

                          • #92121
                            First Sergeant
                            Moderator

                              Joe has posted some good info.

                              Lots more to consider. I will give a more detailed answer tomorrow.

                              FILO
                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                              Je ne regrette rien
                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                            • #92122
                              hellokitty
                              Participant

                                Change out your canteens with wide mouth Nalgene bottles. Why you ask? You can break the ice up at top of your canteen with a knife to get to the water. Also if you store your canteen upside down in pouch, in freezing weather, then the ice forms at the bottom of your canteen allowing you to drink. Now if it is frozen solid, then your SOL, you have to use your body or a fire to melt.

                                HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                FOF X3
                                OPFOR X2
                                CLC X2
                                RIFLEMAN

                              • #92123
                                Mike Q
                                Participant

                                  Another trick is to put your canteen in the sleeping bag with you.

                                • #92124
                                  Roadkill
                                  Participant

                                    Anyone using any of the double wall thermal containers, like a yeti? I haven’t, just asking. Like the growlers.

                                  • #92125
                                    Corvette
                                    Participant

                                      Get some GI arctic canteens.

                                    • #92126
                                      BrigandActual
                                      Participant

                                        I have them, but don’t use them like that. I have steel single wall canteens/bottles so I can heat them directly over fire. Can’t do that with double wall.

                                      • #92127
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          There are many options, the key is finding one that works for you, and testing it now to verify effectiveness.

                                          I know many here only pay lip service to it, but a properly done IPB provides weather data for your AO to include the extremes.

                                          So-called winter warfare is extremely unforgiving and not being prepared for it at best will lead to permanent injury.

                                          Consider cutting a hole in the ice to get to the water, having a purification tablet at the ready since the ice begins to form in seconds, and the tablet must be inserted before this takes place. Then placing canteen in between inner and outer layer to keep from freezing.

                                          Why not use a filter?

                                          It’s too cold and these freezing conditions will destroy filter element allowing contaminants in.

                                          Now imagine the extreme diarrhea because of this error in preparation which could lead to death quickly due to a combination of dehydration, hypothermia from defecating in your trousers, or if you get pants down possible gangrene from extreme frost bite to rear end and/or gentials!

                                          Fun stuff.

                                          Maybe your AO doesn’t get this cold, but above example is one of many things that threatens living long enough to possibly get shot in the warfare part.

                                          As far as heating canteens, sure if the situation allows it, but what if you can’t be using such thermal beacons in warfare due to the situation.

                                          when is the last time you actually slept in your AO’s worst extremes in the field?

                                          Can you live in these conditions for a few days, weeks?

                                          How about conducting operations in addition to surviving?

                                          And not be crippled as a result?

                                          These skills need to be second nature so you can be focused on the warfare part which is just as deadly.

                                        • #92128
                                          Roadkill
                                          Participant

                                            My AO. Winter is below zero or single digits. It was 7 degrees the other morning. I’ll ice fish in this weather, sometimes up to eight hours. I love my Wiggys thermals and mukluks. I don’t get cold. True with the filters, they will freeze. I use a Lifestraw, when not using it I keep it on the inside of my liner and parka. It works well. I don’t drink out of the holes I pee in.

                                          • #92129
                                            First Sergeant
                                            Moderator

                                              Some more good info posted.

                                              Joe brings up some good points above.

                                              Let’s start with lube for weapons. This could get you all fucked up if you go the wrong direction. The last thing you want is for it freeze shut and then have to piss on it to thaw it out like Soldiers had to do during the Korean War.

                                              I don’t care what you choose, but you had better test it rigorously before you can depend on it. Whatever your choice, do your research. I recommend, trust and use SLIP2000 and SLIP2000 EWL.

                                              If weapons are constantly exposed to cold, warm and then cold again optics may fog on the outside of the lens. You need to pay attention to this. If they fog on the inside, you bought crap.

                                              Do the gloves you use allow you to manipulate you weapon? Will your gloves fit into the trigger guard? Can you do a combat reload or a malfunction drill with your gloves on? Everything changes when you are wearing thicker gloves.

                                              How are you running you mags? Still using a chest rig? Does it fit over top of you cold weather gear? Can you grab your mags and do a reload with gloves on? We are talking about cold weather gloves. What about body armor? Under or over you cold weather gear?

                                              You can use either canteens or Nalgene bottles. Either one will freeze. Turn them upside down so it freezes at the bottom of it. Hydration bladders are a different animal. If the bladder is inside of you pack, depending on temps, that may be enough insulation to keep it from freezing. The drinking tube will freeze solid. One way to prevent this is to blow air back through the tube to clear it after you drink. I do this even in hot weather. I have had tubes freeze and it sucks.

                                              As Joe said above, in really cold temps, filters will freeze. You need an alternate way of treating water. Iodine tablets are good for this.

                                              @Socks – Gortex, no question about it.

                                              More tomorrow.

                                              FILO
                                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                              Je ne regrette rien
                                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                            • #92130
                                              Corvette
                                              Participant

                                                German (Norwegian) Over-boots $29.99

                                                Sportsmans Guide.

                                                I just bought several pair. They haven’t arrived yet.

                                                Key Features
                                                German military issue
                                                Made in Norway for the KSK (Kommando Spezialkräfte)
                                                Protects in cold, wet environments
                                                100% waterproof protection
                                                Fleece-lined for added warmth
                                                For use over regular boots
                                                Buy XL for size 10.5-12 regular boots

                                                https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/german-military-surplus-waterproof-overboots-used?a=2109020

                                              • #92131
                                                Corvette
                                                Participant

                                                  Cold Weather/expedition style Water Bottle 1.0 Liter size

                                                  https://www.40below.com/products_detail.php?ProductID=18

                                                  This is the trusted water bottle for extreme cold environments. Formerly know as the “Hunersdorf” bottle. Preferred (and even required by some guides) by experienced cold weather climbers and explorers. The lid has large ribs on the outside so it is easy to open with mittens or gloves the cold Because of the slightly flexible PE material, and design of the lid, they don’t have the tendency to crack in the cold as others do.

                                                  These bottles also weigh less than many other expedition grade bottles. The bottles can handle warm liquids from melting snow to water.

                                                  They fit great in the Forty Below® Water Bottle Boots™!

                                                  Cold Weather/expedition style water bottle 1.0 Liter size:

                                                  SIZE: 1 Liter (approx. 33 fl. oz)

                                                  MEASUREMENTS: Diameter: 3 3/4″ (95mm) Height: 8 1/8″ (20.7cm)

                                                  WEIGHT: 4.8 oz (135g)

                                                  COLOR: transparent/clear

                                                  COLD TEMP RANGE: -40F

                                                  Made in Germany

                                                  $10 each for 1 ltr.

                                                  Water bottle

                                                • #92132
                                                  Corvette
                                                  Participant

                                                    I filled a Nalgene and Hunersdorf with hot faucet water and put them in a freezer overnight. They were filled up to the middle of the shoulder to allow for expansion after freezing. The Hunersdorf has a special feature at the top of the cap so that it can expand even when over filled. The Nalgene cap would break if over filled according to 40 Below.

                                                    Both froze solid (no warming jackets were used).

                                                    The Hundersdorf immediately opened while I had to wait 30 minutes before I could open the Nalgene. Both took a full day at room temperature to half thaw.

                                                    40Below told me that it is better to not fill a container in freezing weather; to leave a bit of air at the top. They agreed that turning them upside down was a good idea IF you were sure they won’t leak. Don’t put them near your packed clothes if you do that in other words.

                                                    I will next try the containers in their jackets; along with a thermos to see what happens. I went out an bought a freezer thermometer to check out the temps. 40Below told me that the average freezer was 5 degrees.

                                                  • #92133
                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                    Moderator

                                                      Since having a hot meal can’t be underestimated when living in the field particularly in cold weather.

                                                      I recommend the following Thread Thermos Cooking as a excellent option.

                                                      This can be a real lifesaver in the event of unexpected water entry or general hypothermia treatment.

                                                    • #92134
                                                      First Sergeant
                                                      Moderator

                                                        @skywalker, two interesting pieces of gear. I’ll check those out.

                                                        Let’s talk about clothing. One of the best systems available is the GEN3 ECWCS. This came about after we went into Afghanistan. The Army realized that we needed better cold weather gear. The system was developed based on input from experienced hikers, climbers and mountain climbers. The system works using layers. No one piece tries to do everything, which was part of the problem with previous cold weather gear.

                                                        I stopped using the silk weight base layer and went to Smartwool base layers. I am a huge fan of their stuff because it works. I know there are other companies making merino wool clothing now, but I will stick with Smartwool.

                                                        ECWCS stuff is available online at numerous places at decent prices.

                                                        A newer system is the PCU(Protective Clothing Uniform). Based off of the ECWCS, but it has more layers. You can find this stuff online also, but it is going to cost a lot more.

                                                        I mentioned Smartwool above. I can’t say enough good things about their socks. It is all I have worn for years. And I do wear them year round, to include while I was in Afghanistan. Get the appropriate weight for your AO and temps. I usually wear the mid weight hikers year round.

                                                        One of the biggest things you need to do is evaluate your AO. What are the temp swings that you can encounter. What is going to work for me is going to be different than what works for Joe. That again is going to be different for what @Socks is going to need.

                                                        The next thing you are going to have to do is get your gear out in the weather and test it out. Not just go out for the day, but go out for 2, 3 or more days and actually live in it, but be careful. If you are new to this you need to take precautions. 50 degrees and rain doesn’t sound to bad. Until you have to live out in it. It can be deadly.


                                                        @JohnnyMac

                                                        @Socks

                                                        FILO
                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                      • #92135
                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                        Moderator

                                                          Not just go out for the day, but go out for 2, 3 or more days and actually live in it, but be careful.

                                                          This can’t be stressed enough!

                                                          If you are new to this you need to take precautions.

                                                          When training/proofing your skills/gear in extreme environments always have an escape option.

                                                          You must know the difference between discomfort and damage, suffering through discomfort can build character and endurance while testing limits, while suffering damage while training is ignorance with no benefit.

                                                        • #92136
                                                          JohnnyMac
                                                          Participant

                                                            Thanks @firstsergeant

                                                            I also like smartwool socks. I hear lots of good things about darn tough socks as well, but never tried them. For base layers, I find it to be a case by case basis, where every different piece of clothing will perform differently. I’ll pick up varying base layers at discount places like TJ Maxx, Ross, etc and after spending some time in each article of clothing, I can assess where it fits in. It allows me to be comfortable throughout the late fall-winter-spring fluctuations. Having the confidence and know-how with layering is key, and only comes with, as you say, time outdoors.

                                                          • #92137
                                                            wheelsee
                                                            Participant

                                                              You must know the difference between discomfort and damage, suffering through discomfort can build character and endurance while testing limits, while suffering damage while training is ignorance with no benefit.

                                                              I grew up with “no pain, no gain”. Having worked in orthopedics for 14 years, I can tell you ALL of the orthopedic specialists I have had contact with will tell you “utter BS” (they will use the whole word). I’ve had multiple orthopods comment that “bad coaching provides at least 10% of our business” (those who work in sports medicine, can provide up to 50%), though this is changing with the use of athletic trainers.

                                                              Pain is the body’s way of saying STOP!! you’re tearing something.
                                                              Discomfort, on the other hand, is the body’s way of saying Hmm, haven’t done that in awhile…..

                                                              LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!!

                                                              Max has said it multiple times re heavy rucking – you don’t really want to do it. The VAST majority of soldiers that I see in ortho clinic are the result of carrying loads in excess of 75#. Granted they did it, and for awhile. But EVERYONE I see who did, have torn meniscus (no repair/cure, only trimming out the torn part, which speeds the arthritis process – most will need knee replacements in 5-10 years). Train smart, treatment options down the road may not be what you think they are…….

                                                            • #92138
                                                              First Sergeant
                                                              Moderator

                                                                You must know the difference between discomfort and damage, suffering through discomfort can build character and endurance while testing limits, while suffering damage while training is ignorance with no benefit.

                                                                I grew up with “no pain, no gain”. Having worked in orthopedics for 14 years, I can tell you ALL of the orthopedic specialists I have had contact with will tell you “utter BS” (they will use the whole word). I’ve had multiple orthopods comment that “bad coaching provides at least 10% of our business” (those who work in sports medicine, can provide up to 50%), though this is changing with the use of athletic trainers.

                                                                Pain is the body’s way of saying STOP!! you’re tearing something.
                                                                Discomfort, on the other hand, is the body’s way of saying Hmm, haven’t done that in awhile…..

                                                                LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!!

                                                                Max has said it multiple times re heavy rucking – you don’t really want to do it. The VAST majority of soldiers that I see in ortho clinic are the result of carrying loads in excess of 75#. Granted they did it, and for awhile. But EVERYONE I see who did, have torn meniscus (no repair/cure, only trimming out the torn part, which speeds the arthritis process – most will need knee replacements in 5-10 years). Train smart, treatment options down the road may not be what you think they are…….

                                                                I am now paying for years of carrying 75#-100# plus rucks.

                                                                Sometimes though, you don’t have choice.

                                                                Is anybody getting anything out of these post?

                                                                Want me to continue with the winter stuff?

                                                                FILO
                                                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                Je ne regrette rien
                                                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                              • #92139
                                                                Corvette
                                                                Participant

                                                                  yes please.

                                                                  Most of us have experienced enough fair weather training to have a good idea of what is needed. Few have gone through tough winter training.

                                                                  The German “Made in Norway” overboots came in today. Excellent quality, new condition. I wore them over tennis shoes tonight and will try regular boots tomorrow. They are not made for warmth, your boots will provide that. These just keep the snow out of your boots and provide a bit of insulation, along with a big gaiter and water proofing.

                                                                • #92140
                                                                  Socks
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    @First Sergeant. Definitively! :good:
                                                                    As much information as you can think of as this is a solid case (for me) of YDKWYDK.

                                                                  • #92141
                                                                    farmer
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      @ FirstSergeant. I also want you to continue your posting of advice & experiences with the gear you have tried. It is much appreciated.

                                                                    • #92142
                                                                      wheelsee
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Bastardizing Voltaire here – a smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from others.

                                                                        Yes!! @FirstSergeant – yes, please. Learning takes many forms, sometimes learning how NOT to do winter (i.e. mistakes made) may help……..

                                                                      • #92143
                                                                        farmer
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Do the gloves you use allow you to manipulate you weapon? Will your gloves fit into the trigger guard? Can you do a combat reload or a malfunction drill with your gloves on? Everything changes when you are wearing thicker gloves.

                                                                          How are you running you mags? Still using a chest rig? Does it fit over top of you cold weather gear? Can you grab your mags and do a reload with gloves on? We are talking about cold weather gloves. What about body armor? Under or over you cold weather gear?

                                                                          Do you have a recommendation for winter warfare gloves?

                                                                          And what are other members using & what results have you experienced?

                                                                        • #92144
                                                                          JohnnyMac
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            Want me to continue with the winter stuff?

                                                                            Yes 1SGT!

                                                                            I’m really interested more in actual mission planning considerations or changes needed from an operations perspective with cold weather.

                                                                          • #92145
                                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                            Moderator

                                                                              …mission planning considerations…

                                                                              Here are some commonly overlooked considerations.

                                                                              Significant increase in calories needed.

                                                                              Movement depending on AO conditions, snowshoes, cross-country skis, snowmobiles.

                                                                              Increased equipment needed depending on mission duration.

                                                                              Weather forecast if available, if not ability to read winds, clouds, and barometric tendency to self forecast, including solar/lunar lighting conditions.

                                                                            • #92146
                                                                              Corvette
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Snowshoes.

                                                                                I didn’t appreciate the need for snowshoes until I crashed a snowmobile into a hidden creek and then could not walk out due to sinking into the snow. I had to roll out to the trail and await the tow snowmobile to arrive.

                                                                              • #92147
                                                                                lovemygear
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  I just re-read the cold weather gear threads listed above. The last couple of seasons I tried a few new layering pieces. I have always had a problem with moisture management while hiking and snowshoeing. I have tried a lot of synthetic and wool options and I always felt “soggy”. I get that some of that is inevitable while moving but in an attempt to improve upon my system I have been using the following:

                                                                                  Baselayer:
                                                                                  Brynje Super Thermo Shirt
                                                                                  https://www.brynje-shop.com/en/sportswear~c12/brynje-super-thermo-shirt-10200300-p6949
                                                                                  To be honest I think I am now sold on the idea of a mesh base layer.

                                                                                  Mid Layer:
                                                                                  Woolpower 200 Zip-T

                                                                                  Zip Turtleneck 200

                                                                                  For a “soft” shell layer I have been wearing a smock (arktis 705–unlined but with pit zips, sord smock, or NFM baja smock–I now only go for smocks with pit zips) a First Spear Windcheater, or the Outdoor Research Ferrosi Hoody (Coyote Brown).

                                                                                  I am always out with a pack and a Kifaru Koala on my chest. Not totally tactical but replicates moving with tactical gear fairly well. Having a chest pack or chest rig on really builds up the heat and limits the ability for the main zipper to vent. Hence I think pit zips are key to any layering system.

                                                                                • #92148
                                                                                  Roadkill
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    Love my SORD smock.

                                                                                  • #92149
                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      If the goal is to sweat as little as possible; how much are you sweating with a chest rig versus the battle belt concept? It would seem like the battle belt concept would be better with the on/off, off/on reality of winter warfare.

                                                                                    • #92150
                                                                                      Corvette
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        Do you know where they are made? SORD

                                                                                      • #92151
                                                                                        Roadkill
                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                          I believe Australia.

                                                                                        • #92152
                                                                                          lovemygear
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            I hike with the chest pack because the Kifaru Koala is the means to conceal carry. (Similar to the Hill People Gear kit bag). Admittedly I have not tried the battle belt concept in the situation(s) I was referring to.

                                                                                          • #92153
                                                                                            lovemygear
                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                              I went on a 5-mile PT hike today (non-tactical, approx 40lb pack, kifaru koala chest pack, snow, temps in mid 20’s). While hiking to my turn around point (mostly uphill) I was good with a lightweight merino base layer and soft shell. Added a mid weight base layer for return trip (mostly downhill) and was good to go. In a non-tactical environment it is relatively easy to thermoregulate by changing layers but takes time, creates a lot of movement and possibly a fair amount of noise that may not be practical in a tactical environment. For example to add a layer I had to drop my pack, remove my chest pack, remove layer from my pack, remove my shell, don layer, put shell back on, put chest pack back on and don pack.

                                                                                              Looking for advice from members who have actually done this in a tactical environment for real.

                                                                                              What about a situation where an individual or small unit is patrolling in winter conditions and is dressed/layered appropriately for movement. However, the number and/or duration of listening or security halts present the risk of hypothermia due to rapid cooling. Adjusting layers on every stop is probably not practical. How have you mitigated/managed this?

                                                                                            • #92154
                                                                                              First Sergeant
                                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                                Christmas got in the way.

                                                                                                I have a lot more to come.

                                                                                                Joe, great points, especially the calorie intake.

                                                                                                FILO
                                                                                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                              • #92155
                                                                                                wheelsee
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  Another point will be non-movement, i.e sentry duty. Doing barricaded subjects (read we don’t know how long we’ll be out here monitoring the situation), we were taught to dress as if the temp was 10 degrees colder than actual. Standing around or staying in a static position doesn’t burn the calories (and therefore create heat) like activity does.

                                                                                                  So the question remains, “what’s the mission?”

                                                                                                • #92156
                                                                                                  wheelsee
                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                    Monitor for dehydration also. In the summer, we tend to monitor our sweating to determine how much to drink. However, in the winter, there is still fluid loss, just not as much through sweating. There is still fluid loss through breathing (see the “smoke”?) and urinating more often, the body still has to excrete water.

                                                                                                    If alcohol is involved, while may feel warm, even more fluid loss through urination (alcohol inhibits ADH – antidiuretic hormone).

                                                                                                    The standard rule for hydration remains the same – monitor the urine color (being cognizant of meds, RX or OTC, which can cause color changes, the most frequent are vitamins – bright yellow urine). Cler to light-light-yellow is OK. Anything darker is a signal to increase water intake (electrolytes may need to be added).

                                                                                                  • #92157
                                                                                                    Jamison
                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                      I went on a 5-mile PT hike today (non-tactical, approx 40lb pack, kifaru koala chest pack, snow, temps in mid 20’s). While hiking to my turn around point (mostly uphill) I was good with a lightweight merino base layer and soft shell. Added a mid weight base layer for return trip (mostly downhill) and was good to go. In a non-tactical environment it is relatively easy to thermoregulate by changing layers but takes time, creates a lot of movement and possibly a fair amount of noise that may not be practical in a tactical environment. For example to add a layer I had to drop my pack, remove my chest pack, remove layer from my pack, remove my shell, don layer, put shell back on, put chest pack back on and don pack.

                                                                                                      Looking for advice from members who have actually done this in a tactical environment for real.

                                                                                                      What about a situation where an individual or small unit is patrolling in winter conditions and is dressed/layered appropriately for movement. However, the number and/or duration of listening or security halts present the risk of hypothermia due to rapid cooling. Adjusting layers on every stop is probably not practical. How have you mitigated/managed this?

                                                                                                      First thing on changing layers. Add in extra time for security halts. What I would do on a patrol with cold weather is to have an insulated jacket on top of pack and easy to get to. I would never use a hard shell gortex unless I’m static, or it’s pouring down rain. Bear in mind, I was using the ecws gen 3 gear as well. Since then, I don’t use the silk base layer tops and have added a soft shell to the mix.

                                                                                                      I’ve done this stuff with both battle belt and chest rig. The belt option is much easier to deal with, although, I will normally wear in the
                                                                                                      to patrol around snow , and how I layer: silk layer bottom, both fleece layer, uniform pants and shirt, fleece jacket (temp dependent), fighting gear (chest rig, belt), soft shell (as needed), puffy jacket (as needed, mostly to keep warm and throw on during halts), hard shell gortex (as needed, pretty much only of there’s rain involved).

                                                                                                      Basically, I have things layered under my fighting gear that doesn’t really change that much, and is mostly designed to wick away moisture. The shells and the heavy insulated gear goes over my fighting gear, unless very specific circumstances (rain, super wet snow) mostly having to do with precipitation.

                                                                                                      I very rarely use any sort of gortex shell over pants unless we’re getting into snow shoeing or skiing. I will have and wear Gators to cover that bottom half of my legs though.

                                                                                                      I’ve never used and soft shell over legs, is it worth it?

                                                                                                    • #92158
                                                                                                      Max
                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                        Late to the party. Cold weather requires planning and adaption of missions. It comes down to correct gear and use of. Cold weather can mean snow or no snow. A snow environment can actually be very helpful whereas a cold wet environment can be harder.

                                                                                                        You will have to carry heavier loads in order to carry the gear to survive. This will go to mission planning, as mentioned in the gear concept articles. Cold weather becomes a game of survival while attempting to be operational enough to complete the mission.

                                                                                                        You need more calories and you need to monitor for dehydration. Consider stoves for hot deinks and hot food. Warming fires may be unavoidable and will be a tactical consideration.

                                                                                                        In a more pure snow arctic style envoronement, it changes everything as per winter warfare. You may be skiing and this requires training and adaption of tactics. Use of snowholes forovernight can be very comforable. Done all this as part of winter warfare / artic training.

                                                                                                        For most of us we may be mote concerned about simply ‘the winter’ with some snow. It is hard to keep people awake and alert in extreme conditions and you have to monitor for cold injury, hence gear, training and planning considerations.

                                                                                                        Moving and then going static is a consideration re: sweat and this makes it a very different game versus truck hunters who simply sit in a hide in the cold.

                                                                                                        Fitness goes without saying and you need to start cold at the bottom of the hill and layer as appropriate with gear to keep you alive for static halts. Consider shelter i.e. pup tents etc.

                                                                                                        Address your gear. Some layers will go under a PC and some will go over it. How to get to mags? This is also a possible use of a PC separate from a chest rig, with the plates under and rig over.

                                                                                                        Wet cold weather is a killer and you need to stay dry with all over goretex. Consider rain running down over trousers into boots and consider gaiters underneath the waterproof pants. UK is very cold and wet and we dealt with this all the time on exercise.

                                                                                                        Either way, if it is cold and or wind chill, and you are not dressed and fed correctly, you can die quick. This is a general survival and not just tactical question. As I get older, or perhaps after surgery, I find it hard to stay warm up in Romney sometimes. Particularly when tired after a training or work day. I swear the Food Lion parking lot is the coldest place on the planet, and I have nearly died of exposure on the way into El Puente many times! :yahoo:

                                                                                                      • #92159
                                                                                                        wheelsee
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          As I get older, or perhaps after surgery, I find it hard to stay warm up in Romney sometimes. Particularly when tired after a training or work day. I swear the Food Lion parking lot is the coldest place on the planet, and I have nearly died of exposure on the way into El Puente many times! :yahoo:

                                                                                                          Good point. I remember hearing interviews from the soldiers at the Battle of the Bulge (which was one of the coldest in recent history, at that time). Many suffered cold injuries and commented on how their ability to handle cold was forever changed.

                                                                                                          The link is from Medscape (designed for health care professionals – HCP). Scroll through to “Peripheral Cold Injuries” – https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1278523-overview

                                                                                                        • #92160
                                                                                                          Max
                                                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                                                            What should be stressed is that winter warfare is a leadership function. Weather considerations are part of the factors in the combat estimate and when doing any mission planning you need to take account of the weather.

                                                                                                            For hot weather you would be thinking water, right? Actually it is a common mistake to not consider hydration in cold weather, and due to the cold people do not drink enough. Big time if they have partially frozen canteens. Consider hot brews on a regular basis.

                                                                                                            On ops in cold wet weather it is not unknown to spend time in a state of partial hypothermia, just because of the way the military is! Laying in ambush, etc. There was a time in BritMil when you were not allowed to wear waterproof clothing on patrol – this was before goretex when the stuff was plastic and known as ‘crisp packets’ – not only would you sweat, but you would make a lot of noise.

                                                                                                            Now we have the technology and gear so there is no excuse. As a leader you have to plan the mission around the constraints of your team, their gear and their training. Morale will play an important factor in dealing with, and operating in, the cold.

                                                                                                            So when you come across a constraint, ask yourself “so what?” and the effect this will have, and what can you do to mitigate it? How for example to plan a movement to a static location but then still stay warm enough to avoid hypothermia and cold injury? You may be hovering on the edge depending on the situation.

                                                                                                            Funnily enough, I was up skiing for 3 days over Christmas with the kids. Really cold, like 11 degrees. You have to watch it and take them in for regular hot chocolate in the warmth. You can keep monitoring and they will say they are fine then suddenly you are halfway down the hill and the cold hits the extremities, and then it is crying and emergency. You have to get them to a lift and into the warmth asap. Kids go until they don’t. And that is with full warm kit on. Really cold is really cold and if you stop you will die. On the way back in the car my 9 year old complained of pain in his little toe, and lo and behold, it was slightly red in a small area – beginning of a cold injury. That was with constant monitoring, and he had not complained of cold feet.

                                                                                                            Once at Sandhurst we were out on a defensive exercise in the winter, in snow. It was snowing as we were digging stage 3 battle trenches overnight, then living in them, filling with snow. I thought nothing of it, but on return to the lines, I had hard little white bits on the ends of my toes. Frostnip. This is also why in the cold you have to buddy check each others extremities – noses, fingers, and when changing socks, toes. There is another extremity but let’s leave that alone LOL.

                                                                                                          • #92161
                                                                                                            Max
                                                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                                                              Also, never get into a sleeping bag with all your gear on, in particular your goretex. You may die of hypothermia in your bag! I had that experience one, wearing crisp packet waterproofs in my sleeping bag as enlisted. Nearly fucking died. Cold as shot until I was gripped going on sentry. Also, you will not feel the benefit of the warm gear if you keep it on, Dress in your bag with enough gear to fight if you are bumped, but save the warm gear fro when you get up for sentry. Things like stand-to are balance of being cold and not having too much kit on, in case you have to move in a hurry.

                                                                                                            • #92162
                                                                                                              Max
                                                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                                                As a kid, I used to do a lot of hiking. backpacking. I was introduced to it by my Dad and continued to go either with buddies or often on my own. It’s probably what led me along the path that I took. As a teenager I went by train to the peak district (I think) and the plan was to hike from railhead to railhead over several days. I still don’t know what exactly went wrong, but due to not having money or technology, I had a very heavy pack, and my food was tins, and somehow I must not have had a enough calories for the exertion or the weather. On the last night of this several day hike I was camped by a creek in the middle of nowhere on my own, and I could not get warm. It was just bad, and I did not understand it. Snow on the ground, freezing cold.

                                                                                                                In the morning, I motivated myself to move. I packed up and started hiking to head over the hill and down to the train station. As I was hiking uphill, I started to warm up, and then I realized that I had torn my Achilles tendon. My ankles and feet were simply too cold to feel it. After that, it was emotional. I had no comms, the mist was in, and I had to get to the railway station. It was a wilderness area, not a place where other hiked. There was no one else there. This is where the component of morale comes in, or motivation. It is easy to lay down and die. Suffice to say, I am writing this, so I made it, and had to recover from an Achilles injury.

                                                                                                                I was extremely fit, but this is where cold weather, poor equipment, massive exertion and not enough decent rations play in. Think about the collapse where we are talking about having to conduct these types of operations, and what you may or may not have to eat?

                                                                                                              • #92163
                                                                                                                wheelsee
                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                  ^^^^ GOLD!! :mail:

                                                                                                                • #92164
                                                                                                                  First Sergeant
                                                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                                                    As others have talked about above, calorie intake and hydration. You will burn more calories and thus have to take in more calories. There is no way around this. You have to plan on carrying more food.

                                                                                                                    You will need a way to heat it up. I am a big fan of MSR’s Windburner stove. It will boil water it about a minute. You also need to take fuel consumption into consideration. That’s another reason I like these stoves. One canister will last a long time.

                                                                                                                    One of the things that I always carry in cold weather is bullion cubes. You can heat up a canteen cup of water pretty quick, add in a cube and it is warmth and calories. Goes a long ways when you are cold as shit and it doesn’t look like there is any end in sight.

                                                                                                                    When it’s hot, you don’t have to remind yourself to drink water. When it’s cold, you don’t think about it. It is just as important to drink water when it’s cold. Staying hydrated is a must. The color of your piss should be the some as when you are hydrated in the summer.

                                                                                                                    Something that goes along with that is bowel movements. Fuck yes it sucks to have to dig a cat hole and expose your ass to sub freezing temps. The longer you hold it, the colder you will become. The body has to use warmth to keep that crap in you. The faster you get rid of it, the better off you will be.

                                                                                                                    FILO
                                                                                                                    Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                    Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                    In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                  • #92165
                                                                                                                    wheelsee
                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                      Something that goes along with that is bowel movements. Fuck yes it sucks to have to dig a cat hole and expose your ass to sub freezing temps. The longer you hold it, the colder you will become. The body has to use warmth to keep that crap in you. The faster you get rid of it, the better off you will be.

                                                                                                                      Ain’t nobody gonna like this one………

                                                                                                                      The large intestine’s primary job is to reabsorb water. If you’re not drinking enough as you should, you are predisposing yourself to constipation. When you feel the urge to evacuate the bowels and you ignore it, the feces stays and continues to have water extracted. In about 20-30 minutes, you’ll feel the urge to evacuate again, only less so this time. Ignore it and the urge goes away again. Repeat every 20-30 minutes for 2-4 times, then just no urge. All the while that crap is locked up inside having the water removed. Are you starting to get a picture??

                                                                                                                      While modern medicine can do wonders when its working, what about in primitive conditions?? One of my interests is in genealogy, so I enjoy reading death certificates. I am utterly amazed at the number of things killing people of all ages just 50 years ago. Those things we take for granted today were killers once and can be again.

                                                                                                                    • #92166
                                                                                                                      farmer
                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                        @wheelsee, what were some of the things killing 50 years ago vs. today?

                                                                                                                      • #92167
                                                                                                                        Max
                                                                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                                                                          A long time ago I wrote a post on the old blog about using poor weather. The flip side of weather considerations is how you stack up against the enemy. If you can rise above weather considerations through a combination of planning, training, gear and morale, then you may be able to gain an advantage over an enemy.

                                                                                                                          Poor weather makes enemy seek shelter, huddle and have fires. Be inside under shelter. Reduce morale and alertness of sentries. Rain and wind can be used to mask movement. Snow may be a reverse considertion if you are doing recon, due to tracks, but it depends if the enemy are out there patrolling or not, and what tracks are already there: it will affect recon planning for CTR. If you moved into an OP during snowfall, you could get under cover and tracks and your OP would be covered in new snowfall.

                                                                                                                          All these things are considerations for your tactical planning, but none of it can be executed without a team, training and leadership.

                                                                                                                        • #92168
                                                                                                                          wheelsee
                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                            @wheelsee, what were some of the things killing 50 years ago vs. today?

                                                                                                                            I should have listed the dates 1930s-1950s.
                                                                                                                            Tuberculosis
                                                                                                                            Ruptured appendix
                                                                                                                            Gastroenteritis (vomiting and diarrhea)
                                                                                                                            UTI (urinary tract”bladder” infection)
                                                                                                                            blocked intestine (small bowel obstruction or constipation of large intestine, it doesn’t specify)
                                                                                                                            Scarlet fever (a worsening of strep throat, which is the real reason we treat with antibiotics. In the 1800’s, 30% mortality).
                                                                                                                            Influenza

                                                                                                                            Keep in mind most of these are either surgical problems or treated successfully today with antibiotics or IV fluids.

                                                                                                                            One interesting note re:appendicitis (since we have US and Brits here). In the US, the preferred treatment is surgery (removal of) whereas in Britain, they are seeing good results with the use of antibiotics (uncomplicated, meaning not ruptured, study done in BJM – British Journal of Medicine http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e2156 )

                                                                                                                          • #92169
                                                                                                                            wheelsee
                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                              Max has already written about using poor weather as your friend. Look at our history for positive references. Probably one of the most famous (for us colonists, at this time of year) is General Washington and crossing of the Delaware to get his troops into Trenton NJ against the Hessians on the Christmas night (used not only the weather but also the holiday).

                                                                                                                              A quick reference would be watching “Jeremiah Johnson” with Robert Redford. Some of the fur trappers (new ones) would pull their fur hoods snug over their heads to keep warm, at the expense of hearing and seeing potential threats which the Indians (Blackfeet and Crow) took advantage of.

                                                                                                                            • #92170
                                                                                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                                                                A long time ago I wrote a post on the old blog about using poor weather. The flip side of weather considerations is how you stack up against the enemy. If you can rise above weather considerations through a combination of planning, training, gear and morale, then you may be able to gain an advantage over an enemy.

                                                                                                                                Some additional thoughts:

                                                                                                                                Additional thoughts on Weather and Terrain:

                                                                                                                                Avalanche areas make great defenses, with some appropriate study avalanche areas can be groomed to increase effect.

                                                                                                                                Areas prone to mudslides when supersaturated can be manipulated, water doesn’t compress.

                                                                                                                                Flash flood zones can be historically predicted.

                                                                                                                                Wind and rain mask sound, hooded OPFOR reduce sight and hearing even more.

                                                                                                                                Weather considerations UAS (FMI 3-04.155):

                                                                                                                                Weather conditions must be at or above those minimums prescribed for specific AOR‘s. The appropriate authority can waive these requirements.

                                                                                                                                Weather/ UAS/ UAS Sensors
                                                                                                                                Icing/ No deicing/anti-icing capability/ N/A
                                                                                                                                Crosswinds greater than 15 kts/ Exceeds operational capabilities/ N/A
                                                                                                                                High winds at altitude greater than 50 kts/ Creates dangerous flying conditions/ N/A
                                                                                                                                Light rain/ UAS can operate/ N/A
                                                                                                                                Heavy rain 2 inches or more per hour/ UAS cannot operate/ Poor, unusable imagery
                                                                                                                                Fog and low clouds/ UAS can operate, but increases the risk to the UA during takeoffs/landings/ Cannot Penetrate heavy fog/clouds

                                                                                                                              • #92171
                                                                                                                                Max
                                                                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                                                                  Hoods are a big thing. People just don’t know. I see people in hoods all the time. Even First Spear is advertising a windcheater with cool guy photos with the hood up.

                                                                                                                                  Yes, windproof smocks have hoods but you are not allowed to use them!

                                                                                                                                  Hoods will cut down your hearing and peripherals and should not be used at any time you are on patrol or sentry or other similar task that requires being alert.

                                                                                                                                • #92172
                                                                                                                                  Max
                                                                                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                                                                                    Training and Morale.

                                                                                                                                    If it is raining, a helmet will keep your head dry :good:

                                                                                                                                  • #92173
                                                                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                      Ain’t nobody gonna like this one………

                                                                                                                                      The large intestine’s primary job is to reabsorb water. If you’re not drinking enough as you should, you are predisposing yourself to constipation. When you feel the urge to evacuate the bowels and you ignore it, the feces stays and continues to have water extracted. In about 20-30 minutes, you’ll feel the urge to evacuate again, only less so this time. Ignore it and the urge goes away again. Repeat every 20-30 minutes for 2-4 times, then just no urge. All the while that crap is locked up inside having the water removed. Are you starting to get a picture??

                                                                                                                                      That is probably why it took me a half hour to crap when I returned from SERE school and had a ham sandwich. Despite having to go really bad. I was literally plugged up.

                                                                                                                                    • #92174
                                                                                                                                      JohnnyMac
                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                        Great stuff!

                                                                                                                                        Research has led me to reading up on the Winter War, where the Finns used winter weather and terrain to huge effect against the ill prepared Soviets.

                                                                                                                                        A good read for anyone interested http://www.winterwar.com/Tactics/mottis.htm

                                                                                                                                      • #92175
                                                                                                                                        wheelsee
                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                          That is probably why it took me a half hour to crap when I returned from SERE school and had a ham sandwich. Despite having to go really bad. I was literally plugged up.

                                                                                                                                          To keep this thread on track and for everyone to keep their lunch down, PM and I’ll tell you how to get “unplugged”……

                                                                                                                                        • #92176
                                                                                                                                          Corvette
                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                            LOL

                                                                                                                                          • #92177
                                                                                                                                            Dark Knight
                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                              Even in daily life, the cold weather cuts down on most peoples situational awareness. A little cold and wind and the people walk with their faces to the ground and their head wrapped in hats, scarves, ear muffs, etc.
                                                                                                                                              I see it everyday on the streets in DC, people practically walking into each other. This makes each person and all of us as a whole more of a soft target. You cant see the threat if you aren’t looking.
                                                                                                                                              It only get multiplied if you add in some form of precipitation, then the monotony of stand watch or guard duty in a tactical environment.

                                                                                                                                              On a side note, I wonder how many cases of frostbite will occur on NYE in NYC. The temps are supposed to be in the teens and folks will be stuck standing in those pens for hours and I am sure many will not dress properly, especially regarding footwear.

                                                                                                                                              Happy New Year to all!!!

                                                                                                                                            • #92178
                                                                                                                                              RobRoy
                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                George Washington used the weather and the holiday to put a whoopin on you know who when he crossed the Delaware river. That Fischer guy wrote a great book about a great real American hero dealing with that.

                                                                                                                                              • #92179
                                                                                                                                                wheelsee
                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                  On a side note, I wonder how many cases of frostbite will occur on NYE in NYC. The temps are supposed to be in the teens and folks will be stuck standing in those pens for hours and I am sure many will not dress properly, especially regarding footwear.

                                                                                                                                                  Happy New Year to all!!!

                                                                                                                                                  Don’t make the mistake of looking at temperatures (above freezing, below freezing). ANY time the temperature is below body temperature, there can be problems (see link at bottom), but generally 60 F (air temp) is considered a reasonable cutoff (see here for more info https://www.webmd.com/first-aid/exposure-to-cold-do-to-body#1 )

                                                                                                                                                  The most common environmental temperature I see problems with is in the 40s. Colder and people know to bundle up. The elderly already have a problem with thermoregulation, through various diseases (diabetes, Peripheral vascular disease, dementia, etc), and medications (https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/hypothermia-cold-weather-risk-older-people ). Street people are also at risk, I strongly encourage to have a dedicated person in charge of feet checks (see Max’s post above), this is one of the things we check for in the ED – the body looks good, but the feet have trenchfoot (cold and wet) or frostbite which are treated as burns (cold burn).

                                                                                                                                                  Bottom line – ANYTIME the air temp is below 60F, bad juju can happen (cold injuries) if you’re not looking for it. Also remember that 70F water temp is like standing butt-naked in 40F air (water absorbs, conducts, heat 25x faster than air).

                                                                                                                                                  More info https://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/hypocold.shtml

                                                                                                                                                • #92180
                                                                                                                                                  The Prof
                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                    Something I and some friends discovered while practicing advance and retreat sprints (“I’m up, he sees me, I’m down”) in about 15 degree weather in a stiff wind, was that we were OK standing around, and even kneeling in snow firing at targets. But once we started the sudden bursts of activity, apparently our blood went in to our cores, and our fingers almost instantly turned so cold and stiff and numb that it was dangerous to continue.

                                                                                                                                                    I was quite startled by this–which affected most or all of us–and consulted some PT/sports medicine people I know, who agreed that this was what had happened, and said it was not unreasonable to expect.

                                                                                                                                                    Something to think about. It pretty much rendered us unable to function, at least safely.

                                                                                                                                                    (And yes, we had fairly decent clothing and gloves on, so that wasn’t the issue. Despite that, our hands and fingers turned into useless clubs once we started the sudden violent activity.)

                                                                                                                                                  • #92181
                                                                                                                                                    First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                                                                      Do you have a recommendation for winter warfare gloves?

                                                                                                                                                      And what are other members using & what results have you experienced?


                                                                                                                                                      @farmer
                                                                                                                                                      – For dry cold temps I use the Intermediate Cold Flyers Glove. They were designed for chopper pilots, so you have some dexterity. I have used them down into the teens and had no issues. The biggest issue is they are not waterproof, so you have to take that into consideration. One way to avoid that issue is to have two pair of them. Wear one and put the wet pair inside of what you are wearing so your body heat dries them. You can do the same thing with wet socks.
                                                                                                                                                      fortbraggsurplus.us/Intermediate-Cold-Flyers-Glove-HAU-15P-p/flyers-glove.htm

                                                                                                                                                      I have also used a thin pair of poly pro glove liners under the cold weather gloves. Gives a little more warmth and if you have to take your gloves off, you don’t have to touch anything with your bear hands.
                                                                                                                                                      amazon.com/Black-GI-Polypropylene-Glove-Liners/dp/B000HKPFS0

                                                                                                                                                      For colder temps, you still can’t beat mittens. They are the best for keeping your hands warm. I still use the GI trigger finger mittens, cause they work. If you get a set, make sure you get two pair of liners. For the same reason I talked about above, one can be drying while you wear the other pair.

                                                                                                                                                      Outdoor Research has the new version of the trigger finger mittens. They developed them for the military.

                                                                                                                                                      One thing that is very important when it comes to gloves, get the right size. If they don’t fit right, they wont work like they are supposed to.

                                                                                                                                                      Using gloves while manipulating your rifle is something you have to practice with. Be it regular gloves or trigger finger mittens. You also need to look at your trigger guard. The standard one one on AR’s is hinged for cold weather work. I use the Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard. Gives you more room with gloves.

                                                                                                                                                      FILO
                                                                                                                                                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                      Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                    • #92182
                                                                                                                                                      Roadkill
                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                        A little adrenaline dump while doing these winter maneuvers could cause some vasoconstriction that even good gloves won’t cure. Keep wearing or get good equipment and continue periodic training as you can and are doing; can’t function go warm up, start over.Hopefully as you become stress inoculated you will have less of a stress reaction and be able to function better. Continue good pt program, as that helps too. Also spending more time in the cold will help you become more cold tolerant, or acclimated as some might say.

                                                                                                                                                      • #92183
                                                                                                                                                        Corvette
                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                          Somebody mentioned that stainless steel barrels have issues in very cold weather (versus mil spec chrome lined I assume)

                                                                                                                                                          Any further info on that?

                                                                                                                                                        • #92184
                                                                                                                                                          Max
                                                                                                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                            New Year’s Eve. Advance to Contact and Assault Through drills on the new target pit array we dug on Tac Range 1. We did another array on Tac Range 2, so for the assault through drills it will be against an enemy position wiyh 6 x pop up target pits, and mannikins. The stick in squad attach targets are going away, and will be replaced by pop up target pits.

                                                                                                                                                            This was 10 degree weather. SLIP 2000 works really well. Not sure what people are referencing in this thread, but we were fire and maneuvering up the valley fine.

                                                                                                                                                          • #92185
                                                                                                                                                            Max
                                                                                                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                              New target pit array on tax range 1. This is where we do day 1 on the tactical ranges, where we fight up the valley. We used the existing first 2 target pits as the basis for this simulated enemy position.

                                                                                                                                                            • #92186
                                                                                                                                                              Max
                                                                                                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                Work never stops at the VTC. I could not get the backhoe in action, so we dug 8 x target pits for these new arrays on tac range 1 & 2. The stick-in squad attack area up on the hill on tac range 2 is going away and will be replaced by target pits yet to be dug. We will also dig target pits up on the raid site, to replace many of the stick in’s up at the raid base.

                                                                                                                                                                The squad attack and raid sites are used on HEAT 2, as part of attack day (formerly combat patrol).

                                                                                                                                                                If you have not recently trained at the VTC, both TTPs and the facility are evolving and improving. If you did one CRCD back in the day, you are a dinosaur and need to come back to train. Your CRCD will no longer suffice for HEAT 2.

                                                                                                                                                                Texas classes incorporate all these new TTP advances for HEAT 1, and we do have spaces on the first 6 day package. We use a different mobile target set up, but it works very well.

                                                                                                                                                              • #92187
                                                                                                                                                                Lloyd
                                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                                  I have not read this entire thread, so forgive me if I am restating some of what had already been said.

                                                                                                                                                                  First, my perspective is from 4 years guiding elk hunts in a Wilderness Area in Idaho, not military…

                                                                                                                                                                  Water – We used to carry canteens in saddlebags which were heated by the bodies of horses/mules, so they wouldn’t freeze. If we parked the critters and hunted on foot, we’d stuff a canteen down the front of our jacket to keep it from freezing, or at least make sure it was packed in the daypack so that it was close to our body. Hydration packs were not yet invented, but I would think the tube would freeze up, even if the water in the bladder was liquid.

                                                                                                                                                                  Weapon lube – YES, some liquid lube will turn into near-solid grease in cold temps – almost like wax. Plan for it. Test it! All of my hunters used bolt-action rifles, but I carried a revolver, and either one could be locked up if the wrong lube, or condensation got in there…

                                                                                                                                                                  Speaking of condensation – Your breath, your body heat, moving weapon from warm to cold (inside/outside) will cause condensation that will freeze solid and wreak havoc in all sorts of ways a warm weather person wouldn’t expect. I have seen ice form inside of my tent, inside of my boots, inside of shitty “rain gear”, on optics, in firearms, on my nosehairs, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                  Layers on, layers off – The best layering system I found was long johns, fleece or a couple of layers thereof, then a “shell” and/or “poofy jacket”. You are humping up a ridge, you have your shell and poofy jacket stuffed into or tied onto your pack. You get to the top and want to stop and glass for critters, you put on the poofy jacket. the “shell” is just used for stopping water/snow or breaking the wind. No matter what the sales-pitch says, if it stops water from the outside, it will also stop water/condensation from leaving the inside, so use the “shell” with caution.

                                                                                                                                                                  Fingers and toes – I am a victim of frostbit toes, so I am a big believer in insulated footwear! Post-frostbite-screwup, I wore boots that had both built-in insulation and a removable liner, AND heavy wool socks. If anything, buy the boots a half or full size too big so there’s wiggle room for your toes and plenty of circulation and dead air space for warmth! For my hands, I wore thin wool or fleece gloves with oversized heavy insulated mittens over the gloves. That way I could wiggle my fingers and had some dead air space in there, and then could take off the mittens for tasks that required dexterity… Not sure how to translate that into “ready trigger finger on patrol”, other than the drop-down trigger guard “winter trigger” adaptation that AR/M16 system has.

                                                                                                                                                                  Head/face – When it’s REALLY cold, your breath will condense and freeze almost immediately – ice balls on your nosehairs. We would wear wool or fleece stocking-type hats pulled down over our ears, and a loose wool scarf around our face to pre-warm air going in and out. You suck a big lungful of air at 20 below, and you’re likely to freeze tissues/membranes inside your throat, sinuses, and maybe your lungs!

                                                                                                                                                                  MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                                                                                                  Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                                                                                                                                                                • #92188
                                                                                                                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                    Shooter’s post was listed as spam, happens sometimes. Fixed it.

                                                                                                                                                                  • #92189
                                                                                                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                                                      I spoke with one winter instructor who said that he liked ponchos because any trapped air that turned to ice would just slide down to the ground. So he got wind and moisture protection when needed but didn’t suffer the gore-tex ice freeze that many get when it is too cold for the air to exit the gore-tex membrane.

                                                                                                                                                                      Another one told me that he sometimes wears light weight gore-tex pants UNDER his regular pants. That would protect the rain paints from tears, and would also warm up the membrane in the cold to keep acting as it was designed.

                                                                                                                                                                      I have not tried either. Just reporting something I was told from a winter guy.

                                                                                                                                                                      PS: I am doing a water bottle in the freezer test right now with several types of water bottles, canteens, insulated and insulated. Will post the results.

                                                                                                                                                                    • #92190
                                                                                                                                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                        You just have to know/learn the extremes of your AO and get out there in it.

                                                                                                                                                                        For training have a escape plan if something goes wrong, but nothing is better than real experience.

                                                                                                                                                                        As stated before, I’ve done honest -65°F (actual not wind chill) above the Arctic Circle. Once you get to -20°F every decrease by 20°F is an huge difference that has to be experienced to truly appreciate.

                                                                                                                                                                        Done properly after the third day you get used to it.

                                                                                                                                                                        Each environment has challenges, but once you learn it just becomes the new norm.

                                                                                                                                                                        Don’t take it serious and you’ll die at worst, at best you’ll be maimed.

                                                                                                                                                                        Remember too it isn’t a gear thing, it’s knowledge. Sure there is some convenience with the right gear, but people have been operating in extreme cold long before the “Gucci” gear existed.

                                                                                                                                                                      • #92191
                                                                                                                                                                        Lloyd
                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                          Damn, 65 below… ouch! Coldest I ever worked in was about 20 below, and that was more than plenty!

                                                                                                                                                                          Remember too it isn’t a gear thing, it’s knowledge. Sure there is some convenience with the right gear, but people have been operating in extreme cold long before the “Gucci” gear existed.

                                                                                                                                                                          Interesting video – everything here fits what I learned.

                                                                                                                                                                          MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                                                                                                          Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                                                                                                                                                                        • #92192
                                                                                                                                                                          Roadkill
                                                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                                                            I’ve worked in minus degree weather, never overnight, but my day work. Very cold. What’s weird is when it warms up to the mid teens it feels like a heat wave. Literally able to work in a sweatshirt.

                                                                                                                                                                          • #92193
                                                                                                                                                                            Mike Q
                                                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                                                              So a few of us were up at the VTC over the weekend. Temperature on Saturday was 18 degrees. Temperature on Sunday was 18 degrees. Overnight low was at 6 degrees when we woke up on Sunday morning. Also it snowed about 3/4″ while were we driving in. Nice dry powder.

                                                                                                                                                                              Saturday we were kept warm by the physical exertion we were doing. Also drinking hot drinks and heating hot food for each meal was a must.

                                                                                                                                                                              Saturday night we stayed in the team room. No electricity, no insulation, but a propane radiant heater going all night. The temperature in the team room when we woke up was around 8 to 10 degrees. We even hung tarps to make the room smaller to try and retain some heat. We will have HVAC and insulation in the team room in the next few months.

                                                                                                                                                                              I slept on a cot with a 3″ memory foam pad, summer bag, winter bag, bivy sack, and a comforter over all of that. I slept in thick smartwool socks with alpaca socks overtop, sleep pants, level 2 shirt, and a skullcap. I was warm except for my toes. Getting up three times to piss – not so much fun…

                                                                                                                                                                              Two of the other guys could not stay warm – lack of proper padding. They lost their heat through the bottom of their therm-a-rests.

                                                                                                                                                                              We weren’t trying to be tactical for sleeping overnight – clearly. I.e. cots, 3″ memory foam pad, full sized pillows, propane heaters…

                                                                                                                                                                              You MUST go out and try moving and sleeping in this weather so you know what you personally must do in order to stay warm. I’m always cold and therefore need more insulation then other people. I knew that and therefore brought all of the extra sleeping gear listed above. The heated drinks and heated food was also a must for me.

                                                                                                                                                                              The nice dry powder overtop of several years of leaves turns the mountain side into a giant slip & slide. I totally ate it on one of the iterations against the evil Ivan! Luckily my finger was out of the trigger guard and the weapon was on safe – per VTC safety rules.

                                                                                                                                                                              Also I’ve been running steel cased ammunition my whole time at the VTC without ever an issue – until this weekend. I had multiple failure to feeds and double feeds. Max was thrilled in his justification of his hate for steel cased ammo. So be aware steel cased ammo will NOT feed reliably in single digit temperatures. Now all of my steel cased ammo will be for Spring, Summer, and Autumn use only.

                                                                                                                                                                              So a few lessons learned from this little exercise. Take what you can from this post.

                                                                                                                                                                            • #92194
                                                                                                                                                                              SeanT
                                                                                                                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                This was 10 degree weather. SLIP 2000 works really well.

                                                                                                                                                                                I had EWL, no issues and it was 6 when we woke up and rifles were in the cold all night, not that it was very warm inside!

                                                                                                                                                                              • #92195
                                                                                                                                                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                  You MUST go out and try moving and sleeping in this weather so you know what you personally must do in order to stay warm. I’m always cold and therefore need more insulation then other people. I knew that and therefore brought all of the extra sleeping gear listed above. The heated drinks and heated food was also a must for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Quoted for emphasis!

                                                                                                                                                                                  Also I’ve been running steel cased ammunition my whole time at the VTC without ever an issue – until this weekend.

                                                                                                                                                                                  This is an important discovery that can only be found through realistic training.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you want to discover this when it’s the real deal?

                                                                                                                                                                                • #92196
                                                                                                                                                                                  SeanT
                                                                                                                                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                    To add to Mikes post a little. Closed cell foam pads are better in the really cold vs the open cell. I forgot either one so I improvised by putting extra clothing under me outside the bag. I didn’t really get cold until after the second whiz excursion about 0500 and by 0600 I was shivering so into the truck I went to get warm. After eating a hot breakfast and some hot coffee, all was good. I burn my calories pretty fast and I think I just ran out of fuel. I also don’t have a lot of fat as insulation or reserve fuel. I did stay hydrated and that is just a normal habit for me no matter what the weather. Feet were mostly fine with wool socks X2 and nothing fancy leather boots. It was so cold the snow did not melt on my boots and make them wet but that could have been an issue.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Boot soles were so frozen hard that any traction on the ‘slip and slide’ was pretty difficult. I was 4 man in the patrol so up to the right I went…..my down hill knee took a lot of extra strain I noticed, more than usual. I didn’t get injured but I feel the extra strain.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Butane stoves don’t like that cold so remember to keep your fuel can close so you can body heat warm it so you can have fire when you want it or NEED it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    As 1st Sergeant advised, the drink tube on my hydration bladder did freeze, the blowing back trick seemed to work after I thawed it. I was NOT relying on that bladder for my water so it was no big deal but it could have been.

                                                                                                                                                                                    For the record, mechanix gloves are fine if you are digging holes, not so fine standing in the wind trying to survey the windy top of a mountain.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92197
                                                                                                                                                                                    Max
                                                                                                                                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                      Leaves: the control burn program for the VTC is not complete, and will be completed once weather allows. With no classes till March, leaves should not be an issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steel case: oh, how I laughed, and laughed, and was overjoyed! :yahoo:

                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92198
                                                                                                                                                                                      batsoff
                                                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                        Two of the other guys could not stay warm – lack of proper padding. They lost their heat through the bottom of their therm-a-rests.

                                                                                                                                                                                        … and I’m one of those guys.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Being warm inside the sleeping bags (patrol, winter, bivy) was not an issue. I was wearing silks, thermals, hat, gloves, and wool socks. But as the night progressed, I could feel the warmth being pulled out of my body from underneath my cot.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I slept on a cot with a Thermarest Trail Pro mattress inside bivy (under the sleeping bags), but the Thermarest was just not thick enough for me to prevent heat loss. I even added an extra thermal layer at one point in the night, but that only worked for about 20mins before I could feel the heat loss again. It just felt like I was laying on cold concrete all night.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Note to self… need a better mattress option when sleeping out in very cold weather. Might have to look at the memory foam that MikeQ uses.

                                                                                                                                                                                        -batsoff

                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92199
                                                                                                                                                                                        JohnnyMac
                                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                          need a better mattress option when sleeping out in very cold weather.

                                                                                                                                                                                          This might help with choosing another one, it lists R-values and weight for almost all sleeping pads:
                                                                                                                                                                                          https://sectionhiker.com/sleeping-pad-r-values/

                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92200
                                                                                                                                                                                          Pinky
                                                                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have one for you experts since we are talking winter warfare. I don’t want to turn this into a tech-talk thread and de-rail it, so please kill it if you believe that to be the case. There is a lesson that is common to above in it – TEST YOUR GEAR IN THE COLD.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I was out training over the holiday with a relatively new Daniel Defense upper (16″ CHF mid-length chrome govt. profile, DD BCG – all factory stuff) on a Colt M4 factory lower – no franken-gun stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                            When I first received the upper, I wiped it down with CLP to get off any factory germs, ran a bore snake through the barrel a few times, then lubed up as per normal with Slip2000 EWL. I have had maybe 3-4 prior range sessions with it over the last month and it has been 100% with brass case ammo, 100% with a limited sample of steel case, both suppressed and unsuppressed – NO ISSUES. This was to be my go-to rifle.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Fast forward to a couple days ago; it was ~12F one day, maybe ~15F the next (cold snap here in VA). I thought it would be a good time to go do some training/shooting. One important note – I have been using the new poo brown G3 PMAGS, 10-12 in rotation, all have been used with multiple rifles and known good (i.e. I think I have ruled out mags being the cause of my issues).

                                                                                                                                                                                            Day 1 – In addition to the DD, I ran three rifles with the same PMAGS to check 100Y groups/zeroing (suppressed 10.5″ LMT chrome-lined, suppressed 12.5″ FN CHF chrome-lined, and a 16″ Green Mountain barrel, melonite, franken-gun). All are lubed with Slip EWL out of the same bottle. I ran the DD last in line (i.e it had time to soak in the cold the most) and immediately had failure to feed (bolt stuck about 1/3 into the round, never got out of magazine into chamber). Cleared, repeated, same result, multiple times. Finally got a round to load (it was like watching slow motion video), than click, NO BANG. Tap, rack, click, NO BANG. Repeated about 5 times with the same result. Did this with multiple mags, same issue (including a USGI with magpul follower). These are the same mags that worked just fine with the other rifles in the same shooting session.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Cleaned up, went inside to investigate. I got the same result in the heated garage when I first got in (new mag with locked back bolt, would not feed). Let it sit for a while to warm, then loaded mag on open bolt and it cycled like a champ, all the way through a mag (rack, eject, rack, eject – no firing). It seemed that warming it up solved the issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I took it apart, wiped it down to reduce the amount of lube thinking that might be the culprit, put it away.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Day 2 – took another rifle out to zero a new scope. Let the troubled DD sit out in the cold for about 30 mins while I did that. SAME RESULT as Day 1 (failure to feed, FTF when I did get rounds in). Took back to garage, let it warm, cycled like a champ in garage (open bolt, load mag, bolt release, into battery, over and over, just as it should). Wiped all innards totally down with CLP and then with a dry cloth til no carbon then lubed it with 0W-20 Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. Put it back outside to cold soak for another 30 minutes or so. Then I went back out to range and tested maybe 10 cycles of loading mags from locked bolt, fire, eject, lock bolt to rear, feed mag, fire, etc, etc). It seemed to work just fine with Mobil 1; no failure to feed rounds and all went bang.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Could this temperature cause Slip2000 EWL to become gelatinous and therefore slow my BCG so much it could not pick up a round? And when I did get a round in the chamber cause the firing pin to be stuck in gelatinous goo and not fire? Seems not that cold based on the specs they advertise. I thought I had too much lube the first day and went to what I’d consider “dry” for day 2 and still had issues. Mobil 1 worked 100% and seemed (subjectively) “thinner” to the touch out in the cold.

                                                                                                                                                                                            And, why would this behavior show on one rifle and not the others? B/c it is almost brand new maybe? Tighter tolerances? I have no suggestions at this point as to why this is. I do know that I don’t trust this new, pretty expensive rifle in the very cold though.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks!

                                                                                                                                                                                          • #92201
                                                                                                                                                                                            Max
                                                                                                                                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                              I’m not sitting here with the specs on SLIP. However, we were out in the same weather. My Colt 6920 OEM 2 came out of the case cold on the range and I had not cleaned it since last use, when it was generously lubed with SLIP. When I went to charge the weapon first time the bolt hung up to the rear. We grabbed a bottle of SLIP that Mike had in his gear and threw it on the bolt, generously. Without racking it, it just sat there until the live fire began. We did notice that the SLIP was thicker than normal, gelatinous.

                                                                                                                                                                                              When I started firing, no stoppages. I did notice that on my first combat reload the mag would not fall free. Sticky with cold? After that, they all fell free.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I suspect SLIP thickens with cold. Makes sense? Either that or DD are shit lol. I also notice you mentioned CLP a lot – if that is still on the gun, could that be the underlying issue?

                                                                                                                                                                                            • #92202
                                                                                                                                                                                              Pinky
                                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks Max, good to know. the CLP was used only to clean, not to lube. the kind in the spray can (forgot the brand, but a common one). Spray, wipe/polish with old t-shirt until no black crap came off any more, then I would re-lube. I was heavy on EWL on Day 1 then wiped some off to what I’d say was dry. The Mobil 1 remained thin even in the cold. I use that on my nitrided franken-gun i am testing with nothing but Wolf and not cleaning, not any of my “good” ones. I have read mixed results and opinions on Mobil 1 on AR’s though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                EWL is rated down to something crazy like Alaska temps though. Watching the bolt after I released it was like a slow motion film. Not so with Mobil 1 though. I wonder if the other rifles that all have probably 2K rounds through them are not such an issue due to some wear on the parts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                              • #92203
                                                                                                                                                                                                Max
                                                                                                                                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                  *waiting for Scott to jump in with the right answer* :scratch:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But meanwhile….also perhaps are you overcleaning?

                                                                                                                                                                                                • #92204
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have had maybe 3-4 prior range sessions with it over the last month…

                                                                                                                                                                                                    How many rounds (ballpark)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92205
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Pinky
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                      It is possible that I’ve overthought it, but I did not become OCD about cleaning it until I had the issues (I have never been accused of overcleaning…will take that as a compliment!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joe – It probably has 400 rounds through it total. 3-4 mags in each sesssion

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I sent DD a note about it also just for fun. It is the roughest finish I’ve felt on many BCG’s. If you run a tissue over it dry, it shreds pieces of the tissue off. I did some reading and that seems to be a common observation on DD BCG’s (“rough” finish). Even lubed it is rough to the touch on the exterior (the chrome lining looks just fine via flashlight and the bolt moves freely, so I don’t think there are any issues there). It is just the outside that is rough.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      The weird thing is there were zero issues in warmer temps and zero issues if I cycle it in the warm garage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92206
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                        It probably has 400 rounds through it total. 3-4 mags in each sesssion

                                                                                                                                                                                                        In theory that should be a ok break in, I normally like a minimum of 250 rounds from me trouble free to depend on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        DD BCG’s (“rough” finish)

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Could be a factor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        As everyone here probably knows heat and cold makes metal expand and contract. In a AR we’re dealing with different metals between BCG and the upper with different expansion/contraction rates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        The weird thing is there were zero issues in warmer temps and zero issues if I cycle it in the warm garage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Extremes in temperature can show varying friction in metals and lubes used.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        We’ll see what First Sergeant thoughts are, but it may need more break in and/or light polishing of the BCG.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Worse case use what it likes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Note: I haven’t had problems beyond lube and moisture in extreme cold. Condensation is not just a weapon problem, magazines can get iced up too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Remember for extreme cold we’re talking issue M16’s that I have experience. My Colt AR has faired well in normal CONUS winter weather. I’ve heard good reports using brake fluid as a lube, but this was in colder than -40°F as a field expedient. Remember brake fluid at these temps can cause major injury to exposed skin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92207
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Roadkill
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I believe there is a thicker Slip 2000, which one are you using.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92208
                                                                                                                                                                                                          batsoff
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Participant
                                                                                                                                                                                                          • #92209
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Pinky
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Participant
                                                                                                                                                                                                            • #92210
                                                                                                                                                                                                              BrigandActual
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stumbled across this today… relevant:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                United States Army Northern Warfare Training Center – Cold Weather Student Handout

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good link, thanks!

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • #92211
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was warm except for my toes. Getting up three times to piss – not so much fun…

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bottle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • #92212
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I did notice that on my first combat reload the mag would not fall free. Sticky with cold? After that, they all fell free.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have read that the mag wells of AR15’s and AR10s shrink a bit in the cold and that magpuls don’t. Therefore, you have a tight fit; especially if the mag has been painted all the way to the top. Makes sense to me because Bravo Company asks one to use a heat gun (glue gun) to warm up a new front rail to expand the metal before fitting it on the barrel nut.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    edit; I just noticed that Joe mentioned shrinking metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92213
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @Pinky – SLIP should have given you no issues. As you said, it is rated down to stupid temps. I use the SLIP 2000 EWL. It was initially designed for belt feds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      See as this is a new gun, that may be an issue. Some of the stuff you were seeing may still be remnants of what they coat it with before it is shipped. That combined with the CLP and then SLIP and the cold weather may have caused an issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sometimes combination of different lubes and cleaners can cause issues. Couple of examples, Rem Oil becomes tacky and attracts shit after awhile. Frog Lube, there is a reason that we call it Frog Glue. There have been some students that have used that in the past at classes and had all kinds of issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My suggestion is to completely clean it. Get some SLIP 2000 725 Gun Cleaner and SLIP Carbon Killer. Those two will strip everything off it. Relube it and try it again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Gun Cleaner and Carbon killer strips everything, so lube needs to be put back on all of the parts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      DO you have the correct buffer in the rifle? You said you were using a Colt lower, is it a carbine lower? If so, the buffer may be the wrong one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The finish on the bolt shouldn’t be that rough. It shouldn’t be smooth either. If DD get’s back to you, let us know what they said.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What kind of ammo were you using? This is one that most people have no clue about. The cold weather plays havoc with ammo. It causes the velocity to drop. All of you that like to buy the cheapest ammo you can get need to look into that. I am very particular about even my training ammo because of this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @Max – mags not dropping free is due to the cold weather. As cold as it’s been, it causes the metal to contract. That’s the reason for mags not dropping free.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now is the time to get your rifles out and run them and find out what kind of issues you may have. Ammo issues, mags not dropping free etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92214
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Water Bottle Freezing Test

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Goal: find out which of the selected water bottles would remain unfrozen the longest. Both standard and covered with a water bottle jacket.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Test: Placed in freezer at 8-10 degrees. Checked several times and at each check the bottle was shaken before putting back in freezer. All water put in the bottles was warm bath temperature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bottles:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hunderdorf 1 ltr bottle, Nalgene 1 ltr bottle, Italian Aluminum canteen, Standard REI stainless single wall 1 ltr bottle, USGI platic canteen, USGI 2 qt canteen, USGI Arctic Canteen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Water Jackets:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        40Below Company jacket
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nalgene jacket with relective material on the inside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Outdoor Research SG Water Bottle parka (military issue)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I placed a Hunersdorf bottle in each of the water jackets

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Results:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5 hours:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Unjacketed bottles were all slushy but able to drink. USGI canteen and 2qt were very difficult to get the top off.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        9 hours:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All bottles were frozen for the most part but you could stick a knife down to break the ice and still get some water. The following bottles I was unable to get the cap off: nalgene, USGI 1 qt, USGI 2 qt. So they would have to be warmed up to even open the cap.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        20 hours: (next morning)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All unjacketed bottles frozen solid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jacketed bottles had about half water and you could stick a knife inside to break up the ice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Arctic canteen was half frozen but the small hole was useless to get anything other than a skinny stick inside to break up the ice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lessons learned:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Italian wide mouth aluminum canteen was great. Opened easily, even overnight. The mouth was wide so you could use your knife; and because it is metal you can place it near the fire to melt. VERY COLD to the touch. Keep the cheap cover it comes with.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was disappointed in the Arctic canteen. Cold to the touch and froze up equal to the jacked plastic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The OR SG jacket rocked! I could drink half the bottle before resorting to a knife to break up the ice. Second place the Nalgene cover and then the 40below cover.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wide Mouth is a must in my opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92215
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pinky
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks 1SG. Will do. I looked at the CLP and it is Break Free CLP for whatever that is worth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It is a Colt H2 buffer. It did run like a sewing machine in warm weather, with can and without.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ammo is Wolf Gold (I use that almost exclusively for training ammo).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Will let you know if DD responds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks All!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92216
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Water Bladder Test

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Source 3 ltr bag
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            HydraPak 3 ltr bag

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Same test as the bottles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Filled with bath warm water. I drank some from the tubes; then blew air back into the bladder. Raised the tube to ensure no water in tube. Made sure tube was above bladder while in the freezer. Closed bite grip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            4 hours later.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Both bladders half frozen. Tubes not working. Bite grips would not work. Both bladders could be unlocked however, and water drunk from the top. The Source had a large cap that could be unscrewed rather than having to open the top. In any case you would have to take the bag out of your pack and then drink the water from the top as the tubes were useless. Not sure which end the tubes were frozen, if not both ends.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Interesting note. Our cleaning lady is from Holland and for years I have been doing tests with water bladders and then hanging them in my basement shower. Last year I happened to be downstairs when she was there and told her that I would move the water bladders. She said “is that what they are? For all these years I thought they were enema bags; but didn’t want to say anything.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • #92217
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            RobRoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I work in the cold weather, not by choice but it is part of the gig, I use goggles, dirtbike style googles. They work for shit with glasses but without glasses and with a face mask they are the deal for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also I use a primitive 1980s cold weather parka with that hood with spiffy fake fur but with wire on the edge so the hood forms as I need it to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              West Coast Chris years ago recommended the Hydro Flask I fill it with hot water and drink it as more than I think I need.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • #92218
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I tested a 16oz thermos brand (same test as the bottles and bags) and it went 48 hours before starting to ice over. But it was easy to break the ice and drink. So, I imagine it would go another 8 hrs before being totally iced over.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The benefit of thermos is that you can go longer before freezing. The disadvante is that you cannot heat them up next to a fire.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My guess is that I will carry 2 stainless steel or aluminum canteen/bottles in a SG Outdoor Research jacket as my primary water supply in freezing weather. And a smaller thermos of some type for warm water and/or bullion cubes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • #92219
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Skywalker, the Italian aluminium canteen is very similar to the Austrian stainless ones I have. I got them after watching Bergmann’s Alaska evasion videos. Being able to warm them by the fire, and to melt snow in them is a big advantage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  BTW, if you have the canteens upside down, then the ice will form at the bottom part of the container.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • #92220
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Skywalker, the Italian aluminium canteen is very similar to the Austrian stainless ones I have. I got them after watching Bergmann’s Alaska evasion videos. Being able to warm them by the fire, and to melt snow in them is a big advantage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    BTW, if you have the canteens upside down, then the ice will form at the bottom part of the container.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    LOL I just bought 4 of them yesterday.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I searched all over for Bergmanns video on canteens but couldn’t find it. Do you happen to have the link?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92221
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you have a recommendation for winter warfare gloves?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And what are other members using & what results have you experienced?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @farmer – For dry cold temps I use the Intermediate Cold Flyers Glove. They were designed for chopper pilots, so you have some dexterity. I have used them down into the teens and had no issues. The biggest issue is they are not waterproof, so you have to take that into consideration. One way to avoid that issue is to have two pair of them. Wear one and put the wet pair inside of what you are wearing so your body heat dries them. You can do the same thing with wet socks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fortbraggsurplus.us/Intermediate-Cold-Flyers-Glove-HAU-15P-p/flyers-glove.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have also used a thin pair of poly pro glove liners under the cold weather gloves. Gives a little more warmth and if you have to take your gloves off, you don’t have to touch anything with your bear hands.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amazon.com/Black-GI-Polypropylene-Glove-Liners/dp/B000HKPFS0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For colder temps, you still can’t beat mittens. They are the best for keeping your hands warm. I still use the GI trigger finger mittens, cause they work. If you get a set, make sure you get two pair of liners. For the same reason I talked about above, one can be drying while you wear the other pair.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Outdoor Research has the new version of the trigger finger mittens. They developed them for the military.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One thing that is very important when it comes to gloves, get the right size. If they don’t fit right, they wont work like they are supposed to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Using gloves while manipulating your rifle is something you have to practice with. Be it regular gloves or trigger finger mittens. You also need to look at your trigger guard. The standard one one on AR’s is hinged for cold weather work. I use the Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard. Gives you more room with gloves.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @Robert

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is the recommendation for gloves. Saw your post in the other thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92222
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bivy bags-in cold weather, bivy bags make all the difference in the world.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know a lot of you are trying to go light weight with gear. In the winter and cold temps, that can kill you. Get one of the military issue bivy bags. Not only will it keep you dry, but it will cut the wind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know some of you like and use the Snugpack sleeping bags. Good bags but I will always use the Army issue sleep system. Here’s why. The system is configurable to the weather conditions. It comes with a bivy bag, intermediate bag and a patrol bag.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrol bag for cool temps with bivy, intermediate for colder temps with bivy, and then for even colder temps, combine the patrol bag with the intermediate bag and the bivy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have spent the night in the rain using the bivy cover and was dry in the morning. We weren’t able to build hootches.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        One last story about bivy bags. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I happened to find myself in the German Alps, in December, in a blizzard. We cleared out snow, laid down a ponchos as ground sheets, pus pad on top of that and then got in our bags. These were the first generation gortex bags that the Army issued. We survived the night. No snow got in the bag and I was warm and dry the next morning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I also recommend Thermarest sleeping mats. They flat out work. Get a full length, not a 3/4 length. I will let @Mike Q explain why.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I always carry a poncho liner with me also. Year round. I put it in the bag, cover up with it and then zip the bag up. It adds extra insulation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chapstick. Always have some with you. And an extra tube. Your lips are going to dry out fast from the cold and wind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you are in a lot of snow, always wear sunglasses. The glare from the sun off of the snow can cause snow blindness.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92223
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Bivy bags-in cold weather, bivy bags make all the difference in the world.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :good:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Chapstick. Always have some with you. And an extra tube. Your lips are going to dry out fast from the cold and wind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you are in a lot of snow, always wear sunglasses. The glare from the sun off of the snow can cause snow blindness.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dito!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92224
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Intermediate Cold Flyers Glove

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I haven’t used these, but just ordered a pair to try at a decent price.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The one size larger Flight gloves with correct size GI wool liners I’ve used because of the quick drying when separated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Look forward to comparing them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • #92225
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              LOL I just bought 4 of them yesterday.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I searched all over for Bergmanns video on canteens but couldn’t find it. Do you happen to have the link?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here is his YouTube channel. Should be in there somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyGlyapnbKc3jnHAWSO7pbw

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • #92226
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mike Q
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3/4 therm-a-rests allow from your knees down to lay directly on the ground. Perfectly fine for the summer. Horrible for the winter. November patrol class at the VTC – got down into the 20’s that night. Bad night. I was next to useless the next day. I learned what may work for someone like 1st Sergeant in the winter will not work for me. I will have to carry more gear then a bigger framed individual simply because I’m cold all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The main point to what everyone is saying is this. Test all of your gear in every weather condition now. What doesn’t work can easily be fixed with the push of a button and some money.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • #92227
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Max
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The major point is really being missed here, in this discussion of gear for extreme cold weather. It goes back to my posts on the MVT Lite Fight Concept. All mission planning is a function of leadership. Carrying a large amount of gear on patrol is probably not practical, for all the reasons laid out in that other post. So plan accordingly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don’t go out. Go out for shorter periods. Use vehicles or ATVs. You get the idea.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Those of you using Bergmann as a model for your gear /mission planning are barking up the wrong tree. Use him for gear tips only. Why? A whole post of its own. Think about it in terms of my other posts. He is an outlier, an exception that proves the rule.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You have all heard of Bravo Two Zero? You probably have not heard of the identical patrol (lead by a young officer) that set down in a chopper on the same mission in a different place. Got out, got back in, mission aborted. Common sense mission planning. No book deal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • #92228
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Carrying a large amount of gear on patrol is probably not practical, for all the reasons laid out in that other post. So plan accordingly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are you paying attention here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Operating in ECW takes more gear, but are you capable of that type of mission?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No really?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Let’s have a logistical sidenote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The canteen discussion within this thread, how many hours does canteen water need to stay liquid?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Assuming your not carrying water for the sake of carrying it, do you know just how much you need to be drinking to stay hydrated?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It’s a lot and without sufficient hydration you can’t burn those high calories you need to stay effective. It all goes together.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Why are you going out? I assume it’s a real mission, so for our considerations a patrol/recon or possibly a assault.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Melting snow or a frozen canteen takes a lot of time and fuel? A one day operation could take a extra 4 to 6 hours just to support this water method which means more food needed and a extra day and a maybe a overnight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now if your just out in the cold surviving its good busy work/hobby. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How many people? How many stoves and how much fuel do you need to support this in a timely manner?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Of course all of this depends on your AO’s resources.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The fastest way is fill canteen in lake/pond/river, quickly add purification tablet, and place canteen in between jacket and your body. Remember to wait sufficient time for tablet to work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Again AO dependent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Remember many of these survival methods individually don’t seem like such a big deal, but combined they take time and resources.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Then of course in our context it’s to support a mission, not just surviving.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You better get out there and run a training exercise to learn these realities and verify if you can actually do it!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    All mission planning is a function of leadership.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can’t learn this just by reading these posts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92229
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We are using Bergmann for gear tips, not for mission planning, with the exception of wilderness camping. We are well aware that his situation is different. I pay attention to his cold weather gear choices because they have proven themselves to be rugged and durable, which is what I am looking for in a post-collapse situation. Rugged gear will last longer. That’s why I prefer US/Brit surplus gear.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92230
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Max
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We are using Bergmann for gear tips, not for mission planning, with the exception of wilderness camping. We are well aware that his situation is different. I pay attention to his cold weather gear choices because they have proven themselves to be rugged and durable, which is what I am looking for in a post-collapse situation. Rugged gear will last longer. That’s why I prefer US/Brit surplus gear.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually makes less sense than you think although defensive. There is more nuance here. Bergmann’s choice of load-out is intimately tied in with his philosophy of survival i.e. his intended mission planning. In fact he is planning to do everything I have advised you not to do with the MVT gear / mission planning philosophy. Hence the comment about him being an outlier / exception that proves the rule. This is of course not intended to be derogatory against him, it just is what it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have no intent to EVER pack up my PLCE Bergan and head out into the wilderness. You should give deep thought to the context of any mission planning and tatical operations you might conduct. After all, most of us are not even single / without kids and that puts out a Bergmann strategy from the start. You are going to have some sort of home base and I have talked about the reality of ‘bugging out’ in the relevant post.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you find yourself heading out with a large fully packed ruck, you may need to go back to your mission planning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Canteen recommendations aside LOL.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92231
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Indeed, I agree Max. My loadout is: Light Battle Belt/Chest Rig or Plate Carrier (mission dependent) and Assault Pack with mission essential gear. I won’t be “bugging out” as I have a rural retreat and a group.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do like the stainless canteens. Much more rugged and don’t weigh that much more than plastic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92232
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          JohnnyMac
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I went out on a hike this weekend, up a small mountain (hill/ridge, 1000ft). Conditions were 5F with 15mph gusting to 20mph, and 4-12″ of snow, elevation dependent. I traveled roughly 4 miles in about 90 minutes, pack dry weight of 33lbs- roughly 50% slower than it would take me in dry conditions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Some take aways:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Feet were warm enough with two pairs of wool socks and Lowa Zephyr boots

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -The OR Highcamp mittens are the shit, hands were warm and I could still use my hands. Thanks for the recommendation @FirstSergeant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I wore a thin nylon balaclava with ballistic goggles. This combo sucke, a lot. The balaclava was way too thin and the goggles fogged. With some technique, I could minimize fogging, by exhaling down. I ended up choosing to pull the balaclava down and exposing my nose/upper lip for a clear view.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -As a test, I took a Source 3L hydration bladder to see how long it would take to freeze. It has an uninsulated nylon jacket on the tube. I meant to blow the water out of the tube but forgot. It was frozen solid in roughly 15 minutes. Water in the bladder never froze.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I didn’t fall, although there were a few near misses and some penguin walking across some frozen streams.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Even though I was layered pretty well (base layer, mid layer, light parka) and moving, I could still feel my body having to make an effort to maintain core temperature. If I weren’t moving I would’ve needed a heavier fleece under the parka.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -There were parts that snowshoes or skis would have been awesome, but other parts were very rocky. I’ve never used either pieces of equipment. Any advice here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -It was fun! (not when the wind wasn’t gusting)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -This is a high traffic trail, and for half the time, the only footprints were those of deer and rabbit. I might have seen some fox tracks, but didn’t want to stop moving to look closer. There’s something about walking through snow untouched by others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • #92233
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              @JohnnyMac

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • #92234
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                @johnnymac

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have heard, that there are two basic types of snowshoes….those for powder and those for harder pack. Here in Utah you can sink real fast in deep, fluffy powder. But if you are being tactical around trees you can’t wear 5 foot long snowshoes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am not a snowshoe expert and have wanted to buy a good set of “all around” tactical snowshoes; so I am seeking input from those that have been there done that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • #92235
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                JohnnyMac
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry I wasn’t clear, specifically:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -When is it appropriate to use snowshoes from the perspective of terrain?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • #92236
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mark9mmp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Not sure if this fits in here but what rucks are folks using for winter loads as well as sleep systems? I ask because my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space. Thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Ah, so you're that dick"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92237
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find yourself heading out with a large fully packed ruck, you may need to go back to your mission planning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I would consider Max’s observation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag…

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Try it out on a typical Winter night, just make sure you have a escape plan to avoid injury if it doesn’t work out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Actual use is the only way to know!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92238
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      SeanT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Not sure if this fits in here but what rucks are folks using for winter loads as well as sleep systems? I ask because my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space. Thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Going to depend on the temps but I think all 4 of us were in USGI gear 12/31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with additional fresh, dry, appropriate clothes on inside all 3 bags I got shiver cold by the end of the night.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92239
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          …inside all 3 bags I got shiver cold by the end of the night.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is why you need to try it yourself, no one size fits all answers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You have to learn your own limitations!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Remember it’s beyond just surviving.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In training I have survived cold with uncontrolled shivering all night, but it certainly didn’t provide the needed rest to perform the following day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Extreme fatigue can kill you through distraction as quick as the enemy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92240
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          JohnnyMac
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Now I preface this with I’m a thin guy and I’m typically the first to start shivering. I think civilian sleeping bag options far exceed the performance of surplus sleep systems. They are lighter and more compressible for comparable performance. The North face cat’s meow with the usgi bivy is my current winter setup.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • #92241
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sorry I wasn’t clear, specifically:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -When is it appropriate to use snowshoes from the perspective of terrain?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That is going to vary by location. I have used them mostly in Europe and some in Afghanistan and the states.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It’s not really the terrain but the amount of snow. Packed snow is easier to move in than deep powder. Snowshoes make breaking trail a hell of a lot easier than just trying to walk in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just walking will wear your ass out quick. Then add wearing kit and carrying a rifle while actively patrolling, it gets worse.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There may be times when you need the snowshoes. Then you get to a certain point and the snow has changed or the terrain has, then you have take them off, strap them to your ruck and walk. The you need them again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As to sleep systems, I made my recommendation earlier in the thread. You figure out what works for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I agree with what Max is saying about making the decision if you really need to be about there or not. What you have to understand is that Murphy gets vote, you may just plan on being out for a couple of hours and then shit goes sideways. I have had that happen to me before and it fucking sucks. If you are out in the temps we had last week, it will kill you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • #92242
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              JohnnyMac
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but the amount of snow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                then you have take them off, strap them to your ruck and walk. The you need them again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks @FirstSergeant!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • #92243
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not sure if this fits in here but what rucks are folks using for winter loads as well as sleep systems? I ask because my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space. Thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can compress it a lot more than you’d think. Cinch down the straps on the circumference of the compression sack first, as tight as they will go. Then, tighten down the vertical straps. You can lean on the top or sit on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • #92244
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anonymous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Inactive

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Kinda random but a friend gave me one of these thick winter kefis while I was in Kurdistan and they’re super nice for wrapping up around your head nice and tight or throwing over yourself for an extra layer of fabric when laying down. They also help keep the flies off your face in the spring until it gets too hot. I’m basically like Linus and his blankie with this thing whenever I go out now. I used to bash the hipsters but now the Kurds got me hooked on these damn things.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    https://www.zozan.com/clothing/scarfs/492/gerila/peshmerga-scarf-green-premium?c=89

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    For some reason the green ones seem to be thicker from the other colors from my experience, still planning to pick up a brown/tan one eventually.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Honestly it usually doesn’t get arctic cold here (very sporadically) so I haven’t invested much in cold weather gear yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92245
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hellokitty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As Joe recommends sleep out in backyard with just the patrol pack at different temps. And you’ll have your answer. Personally temps below 40 and the patrol pack will get cold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As far as the sleep system goes, I don’t put in a sack. The Bivy is the sack and it get crammed into the bottom of my pack.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As Max has said, your not going to be humping a PC with a combat load, weapon, assault pack and a ruck. You can’t do it and be combat effective. I look at my ruck as being a home away from home that I will most likely transport via vehicle. I really only plan to patrol with just a small light assault pack. No ruck.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FOF X3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OPFOR X2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      CLC X2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      RIFLEMAN

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92246
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tango
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Circling to Johnny’s original question, and how all these gear considerations will affect your leadership and tactical planning: movement, supply, and logistics.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your unit will not be as quick and swift as in summertime. Some maneuvers may not be possible anymore thanks to weather, altered terrain, or the fact that you’re just too cold and weighed down with gear. Attend any class at MVT in the cold and see how easy it is for everyone to get bogged down by their cold weather gear. Don’t plan a 5 stage attack with 3 flank maneuvers. The link from @Johnnymac of Finnish Motti tactics shows them attacking perpendicular to an enemy line, breaking it, and holding it. That’s a single troop movement – simple enough to execute and really limits the amount of risk. In this case, if anything goes wrong with your attack you can’t just wait it out. The enemy can use the weather against you to just freeze you out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Finns smartly attacked key Russian supply points in their line making it difficult for the Russians to maintain life. All of the Russians were underclothed and underfed. The Finns were able to secure their supply lines against the Russians for a number of reasons, but the point stands that they were able to keep themselves warm, fed, and effective. Their ability to maneuver, especially in their rear, was rarely compromised.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Leading to Logistics – the Finns were able to maintain freedom of movement while the Russians were limited to a single column. It’s pretty hard to maintain supply when it has only one path to travel – up and down your column. As stated repeatedly here you are going to need lots of supplies to maintain your unit’s effectiveness in winter. Don’t plan movements where you, or your supply chain, risk being cut off by the weather. This is an obvious consideration for any battle plan but extra emphasis in the cold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Finns were a very low budget operation with very good training and extreme familiarity to the AO. They used skis, sleds, snowshoes, etc. to execute their movements. The Russians had vehicles and were unable to navigate the tough terrain.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Keep context in mind the Russo-Finnish war was fought primarily in the woods. Urban winter fighting, probably seek tactical examples elsewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92247
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Corvette
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a 1942 SAKO Mosi Nagant. If guns could talk.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92248
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Talking about moving in snow. How many of you are using gaiters?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They keep your lower legs dry and keep snow from getting inside of your boots.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • #92249
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tango
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Talking about moving in snow. How many of you are using gaiters?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They keep your lower legs dry and keep snow from getting inside of your boots.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              @firstsergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              any particular brand/model?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • #92250
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lovemygear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have tried many gaiter models over the years and the best I have found are the OR Crocodiles. I recommend the Expedition model in Coyote. They have a replaceable instep strap. However they are getting hard to find. I have a pair of the Crocodiles (black) that I have had since 1994 and they are still going strong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • #92251
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Max
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  For most of this thread I have been pushing back on people from a family survival perspective, and urging people to be realistic in terms of operations they may be considering, and weight of gear. That is probably still appropiate, and this has become a long and useful gear thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tango broadened the scope with talk of Finns in WW2. I suspect that this should be opened into a separate thread. Although I have been urging people to be realisitc from a gear / mission planning perspecrive, this is the MVT forum and there is no aspect of tactics or warfare that is not welcome for discussion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So how about a specific winter warfare tactics thread? @tango

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • #92252
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tango
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So how about a specific winter warfare tactics thread?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #92253
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Talking about moving in snow. How many of you are using gaiters?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They keep your lower legs dry and keep snow from getting inside of your boots.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @firstsergeant any particular brand/model?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As was posted before, Outdoor Research Expedition Crocodile’s. I to have used several different ones and these are the best I have ever used.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #92254
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mark9mmp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So not to beat a dead horse, i do appreciate the answers regarding sleep systems, but with the fight light concept am i correct in assuming that in a winter environment either a vehicle will be used to carry heavy gear vs a ruck or one will simply not stay out overnight? Its comes back to the mission planning aspect i realize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Ah, so you're that dick"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #92255
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        JohnnyMac
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Its comes back to the mission planning aspect i realize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This. It’s so situational dependent there isn’t a one-size-fits-all answer. I think the point Max was making (he can correct me if I’m wrong) with not staying out overnight, is that for the average person, the conclusion falling out of the mission planning process will be “the risk of staying out overnight tonight is too great (for whatever reasons)”. On another night, or a different mission, or a different AO, or a different team, etc- the conclusion might be different. It could be something as simple as, ‘the situation has changed’. Example: running a nearly identical mission, when we patrolled this AO before, we weren’t friends with those guys, but now we can crash at their place.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • #92256
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          First Sergeant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So not to beat a dead horse, i do appreciate the answers regarding sleep systems, but with the fight light concept am i correct in assuming that in a winter environment either a vehicle will be used to carry heavy gear vs a ruck or one will simply not stay out overnight? Its comes back to the mission planning aspect i realize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes. You have to decide if you really need to be out in it. You may not have a choice or you may be able to delay based on the weather.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is also where intel comes in. What are the bad guys capabilities? Take the Taliban for example, the did not like to fight at night nor did they like fight in the winter time. A lot of them left the country during the winter and went to Pakistan.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FILO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Viewing 146 reply threads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.