Vietnam: Contact Front, Point Man Down

View Latest Activity

Home Forums Tactics & Leadership Combat Media Vietnam: Contact Front, Point Man Down

Viewing 19 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #109992
      Max
      Keymaster

        Let’s switch eras for a minute. This is an interesting video. Different times. A few quick observations:

        1) Point man ‘Hero’ has a meeting engagement with an NVA soldier on a side trail. They both engage each other, the NVA was down (but disappears), Hero was hit twice in the legs. This is exactly what we are training you for at CRS / CTT when we do the reaction drills and RTR drills. When we teach you nonstandard engagements. This is why you must patrol alert with your weapon held correctly in two hands, in the patrol or low ready positon so that you can immediately bring it into the fight.

        2) Note how the medic waits for the sound of the cover fire before he moves. I think actually someone else brings Hero back, which is a good idea, because if you can bring the casualty back, rather than send your one medic up, that is preferable.

        3) Note differences in TC3. Nowadays, Hero would have a TQ on high and tight for 2 x GSW to the legs. Vietnam was where much of the data on preventable death from extremity bleeding was gathered.

        4) You gotta have a plan for man down. In this case it was a platoon size US element with unknown enemy. No side maneuvered on the other. So it was pretty straughforward to get fire superiority and get the casualty back. Big danger of friendly fire in close jungle with dudes hosing it down with M60 fire! Gotta have fire discipline.

        5) Man down with a smaller force, and difficulty suppressing the enemy, you are now in a world of pain. Point man takes it in the leg in the first salvo, your break contact drill just got a lot more complicated. If possible, the downed man is doing self aid to return fire/crawl out as others suppress. With little support, the hardest thng you will do is to move a wounded man under fire. You may not be able to get him far, and may end up trying to strongpoint, which will not get you far if you have no QRF on the way and a large enemy force. In a Vietnam context, of say a LRRP patrol on the run, you are being pursued and will have to resort to hasty ambush / keep running. So although the video was pretty relaxed, in different circumstnces with less men on the ground, and an aggressive enemy, it’s not cool.

        6) What happened to the downed NVA dude? No actual break contact was conducted, so once point man got back, there was no eyes on the enemy. He either crawled out (‘because they are always alive when you get there’) or was carried out. A whole US platoon there, no eyes on the enemy. That could have been Intel. Prisoner.

      • #109993
        wheelsee
        Participant

          Re: 2

          When I went through EMT-Tactical in the early 90s (put on by joint USPP and DOD), Col Lewellyn (?) with 5th SFG, drove home the point of never sending your medic into the fire. He related an incident in Vietnam where 7 soldiers ended up dying to get to a wounded man who crawled away in the bush and showed up at the patrol base several days later with only “flesh wounds”.

          His teaching was to lay down cover fire while the injured self-extricates. Keep in mind this was a SF doc talking to civilians (SWAT teams with medics)…….YMMV

        • #109994
          tango
          Participant

            Interesting. CASEVAC drills have popped up in the Mobility Class videos.

            This video helps get the gears turning about operation planning. *coughCombatLeaderscough*

          • #109995
            First Sergeant
            Moderator

              “Hero” is Kregg P.J. Jorgenson. He served with the 1st Calvary Divisions LRRP company and then with A Troop 1/9 Cav. He served as point man for 54 patrols with A Troop. Once his wounds healed from this engagement, he returned to his unit to finish his tour.

              He has written several books. Check out his Amazon page.

              FILO
              Signal Out, Can You Identify
              Je ne regrette rien
              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

            • #109996
              Max
              Keymaster
              • #109997
                hellokitty
                Participant

                  Maybe stretching it here, but the way I see it we are training to be LRRPs for our AO. Only we have no support from indirect fire assets. And most likely no QRF to come save us. We carry what we have. And as Max mentioned, if we take even one casualty, we are in deep doodoo, if the enemy is aggressive. Of course without PT we would be more SRRPs. Short Range Recon Patrol. :whistle:

                  HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                  HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                  FOF X3
                  OPFOR X2
                  CLC X2
                  RIFLEMAN

                • #109998
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    Special Forces LRRPs Vietnam – Military Files Documentary Films is an excellent video, thanks for posting Max. :good:

                    This is a very pertinent part of Intelligence gathering.

                  • #109999
                    Sam Brady
                    Participant

                      Max,
                      Brought back a lot of memories…meeting engagements in the jungle were short, sharp exchanges unless one side or the other was prepared to maneuver to advantage. The thick brush and vegetation makes it almost impossible to control troops during movement. I was in the Central Highlands. We were never without rucksacks, helmets and hills…..the Vietnam war was a sergeant and lieutenant’s war.
                      Thanks!

                    • #110000
                      Andrew
                      Participant

                        At 3:11 “Hero” says he looked at a side trail that had more use on it than when we first came down it.

                        I’m wondering if they went back the same way they came in. Not good if that’s what happened.

                      • #110001
                        GreenTip
                        Participant

                          I read one of Jorgensons books 20 years ago.

                        • #110002
                          First Sergeant
                          Moderator

                            Lots of familiar faces in the LRRP video.

                            FILO
                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                            Je ne regrette rien
                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                          • #110003
                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                            Moderator

                              First Sergeant weren’t you LRS?

                            • #110004
                              First Sergeant
                              Moderator

                                First Sergeant weren’t you LRS?

                                Yes. Two different tours. 7th Corps and 5th Corps.

                                There are at least two others on this board also. I’ll let them speak up if they want to.

                                FILO
                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                Je ne regrette rien
                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                              • #110005
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  There was talk of deactivating them, heard anything?

                                • #110006
                                  First Sergeant
                                  Moderator

                                    There was talk of deactivating them, heard anything?

                                    LRS as we know it are all gone. LRSLC has been renamed RSLC.

                                    There was some action taken on reactivating 18th ABN Corps LRS late last year or early this year. I don’t know how far it went.

                                    FILO
                                    Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                    Je ne regrette rien
                                    In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                  • #110007
                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                    Moderator

                                      LRS as we know it are all gone.

                                      Never learn do they!

                                    • #110008
                                      RTOhio
                                      Participant

                                        This also reminds me of what SOG ran into while in Cambodia, Laos, north and south Vietnam. Any SOG book written by a SOG members who naturally were there is worth its weight in gold when it came to the tactics they used. They had a meeting a decade or so ago whereby old SOG Members were called to Fort Bragg in order to teach the newer SF guys on how they survived and what tactics worked and which ones usually didn’t work in contact with the enemy. Man, I would of loved to have been a fly on that wall with a tape recorder!

                                      • #110009
                                        BradyBunch
                                        Participant

                                          Re: 2

                                          When I went through EMT-Tactical in the early 90s (put on by joint USPP and DOD), Col Lewellyn (?) with 5th SFG, drove home the point of never sending your medic into the fire. He related an incident in Vietnam where 7 soldiers ended up dying to get to a wounded man who crawled away in the bush and showed up at the patrol base several days later with only “flesh wounds”.

                                          His teaching was to lay down cover fire while the injured self-extricates. Keep in mind this was a SF doc talking to civilians (SWAT teams with medics)…….YMMV

                                          Anacostia ? I remember you guys, brought up the rear on raid routes with those uber cool black Suburbans.

                                        • #110010
                                          wheelsee
                                          Participant

                                            Anacostia ? I remember you guys, brought up the rear on raid routes with those uber cool black Suburbans.

                                            Not me……class was in Tampa FL…..I was with a large Sheriff’s Dept in the great state of LA…..

                                          • #110011
                                            BradyBunch
                                            Participant

                                              Anacostia ? I remember you guys, brought up the rear on raid routes with those uber cool black Suburbans.

                                              Not me……class was in Tampa FL…..I was with a large Sheriff’s Dept in the great state of LA…..

                                              Was with USPP when the EMTT was being piloted…full fledged docs from Walter Reed were the SMEs. Thanks though

                                          Viewing 19 reply threads
                                          • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.