US mil camouflage

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    • #107271
      Virgil Kane
      Participant

        I picked this up from WRSA.
        Camo

        This is pretty interesting. A lot of time and money goes into choosing a good pattern (except in the case of UCP). Then in pictures I see soldiers wearing solid color or other pattern chest rigs, web gear, backpacks, etc… which covers up the effective camo uniform.

        There will be no universal pattern until the invisibility cloak is issued.

      • #107272
        wheelsee
        Participant

          Curious – I see people camied up but can’t sit/stay still. From a hunting perspective (and SWAT sniper), I was always taught movement catches the eye first. So barring the obvious of outrageous colors, how much does camouflage actually play (as opposed to just staying still)?

        • #107273
          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
          Moderator

            We’ve discussed HyperStealth’s information before and it has lot of good material.

            Camouflage can aid in your concealment, but proper movement and fieldcraft is far more important than camouflage.

          • #107274
            Max
            Keymaster

              Yes, camo is a bit it’s rabbit hole. For most of our applications, I am more concerned with what I am wearing from a perception standpoint. Interactions etc.

              So yes, the ‘fashion’ of it is important for how you are perceived when not ‘hidden.’

              Mostly, movement​, poor tactical sense and lack of field craft give people away. Mostly birdlike head movements.

              You can work in blue jeans if you know what you are doing. Earth tone solids, whatever-cam, is all good.

            • #107275
              RRS
              Participant

                I spend many hours hunting, we hunters can spot on shape.

                Never hunted men, but my offhand guess is that the weapon would be the give away. I can imagine the head bobbing being a tell tale as well.

              • #107276
                Virgil Kane
                Participant

                  I have deer hunted in blue jeans. Most of the designer hunting patterns look great up close, but blend to a single, dark color at distance. From 100yd game may be seeing what I see at 10yds, IDK.

                • #107277
                  Andrew
                  Participant

                    I have sat in a 6 foot tripod, with the wind blowing in my face (that’s important), wearing cheap “leafy” camo netting style smock and pants and had an old 8 pt. buck come to the base of the tripod and stare at me for about 2 minutes before he walked off. The key to that whole deal was that I did not move a muscle once he saw me on the tripod.

                    I have been “made” by does at various distances beyond 50 yards or so. They knew something was up, snorted, stomped their feet, etc., and when I didn’t move, they went back to their normal routine of feeding.

                    IIRC, the blue in jeans appears as a yellow to deer eyes because their rods and cones aren’t configured like ours.

                  • #107278
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      Most of the designer hunting patterns look great up close, but blend to a single, dark color at distance.

                      All current camouflage is perceived as a solid average color at distance.

                      The question is does the average blend with the average color of your terrain? That is one of the reasons behind wearing a different color or pattern blouse and pants comes from.

                      With animals there are relatively recent studies suggesting many animals can see into parts of the UV spectrum, the potential good thing from our perspective is the dyes used to eliminate UV glow also work in the NIR.

                      This means some of the better hunting patterns can work well when observed by electro optical equipment such as night vision devices.

                      This is something to verify with even aftermarket military patterns as some of them have issues with NIR, even without washing with detergent containing brighteners. Make sure you understand about the possible negative effects of brighteners.

                      Again as previously stated color; or in this case colors of the pattern, is a small part of target detection.

                    • #107279
                      Chris
                      Participant

                        My military skills/service is ancient history but my hunting skills are not… as RRS said, Hunters spot shape but we also spot parts/pieces/and lines that ‘just don’t look right’. Movement is the biggest indicator. Notice that animals are not painted in the latest camo pattern and many, many people fail to spot animals when they are out and about. Subdued colors work just fine IMHO.
                        Fieldcraft will trump Camo every time…

                      • #107280
                        wheelsee
                        Participant

                          Notice that animals are not painted in the latest camo pattern and many, many people fail to spot animals when they are out and about. Subdued colors work just fine IMHO.
                          Fieldcraft will trump Camo every time…

                          I can’t count the number of times when eye-sweeping the feeder, nothing is there. Sweep it again and 1-3 doe are there eating corn. AO is central TX.

                        • #107281
                          Andrew
                          Participant

                            Hunters spotting shape. I can’t tell you how many does I’ve seen that were prickly pear cactus. Looked like “she” was looking right at me.

                          • #107282
                            Chris
                            Participant

                              Andrew, you’re not alone! I’ve seen those cactus deer too!!!! It is my belief that they are possessed by Indian Spirits, and when you look at them again they turn themselves into cactus ?. I don’t shoot them though…I usually just sneak up on them slowly and methodically, then dispatch them with my knife. The magical transformation must do something to the meat though because when I cook em up on the BBQ they taste a lot like cactus and nothing like venison ?.
                              Seriously though, Movement is this thing that usually catches a person’s eye and I do believe ‘Fieldcraft trumps Camo’… ?

                            • #107283
                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                              Moderator

                                Let’s review detection methods:

                                Movement: Moving in a static environment or not moving in a dynamic environment. Always the number one indicator.

                                Shine/reflection: Reflective surfaces such as metal, glass, plastic, wet skin, etc.

                                Shape: Shapes draw attention, regardless of what we are looking for our mind will try to acquire and make identification of objects that fit our perception. The
                                “Cactus Deer” from above as one example. Additionally in non-urban terrain there are few straight lines such as gun barrels or symmetrical curves such as helmets.

                                Silhouette: Contrasts against a dissimilar background such as skylines, bodies of water, etc…

                                Color: Blaze orange vs green forest, a extreme example. We can also add texture in this category since dissimilar textures reflect spectrums differently.

                                Shadow: We all have developed at least some ability to correlate shape from shadows as well as movement.

                                Spacing: With the exception of man planned agriculture, regular spaced objects form a pattern, and this pattern will draw attention.

                                Remember while we lose some of the above with Night Vision, the remaining indicators still apply, additionally advanced Thermal Optics replace color with temperature, yet texture still applies.

                              • #107284
                                RRS
                                Participant

                                  The one issue that comes to mind with civvy camo is that the clothing choices suck, I prefer BDU material and cut. I’m in the market for a shirt/jacket and I’ve narrowed it down to MTP, multicam or ATACS FG.

                                • #107285
                                  wheelsee
                                  Participant

                                    @Joe,

                                    NICE review!! :good:

                                  • #107286
                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                    Moderator

                                      I’m in the market for a shirt/jacket and I’ve narrowed it down to MTP, multicam or ATACS FG.

                                      The above mentioned HyperStealth site has a lot of technical information in the U.S. Army Phase IV Camouflage Improvement Program section if interested.

                                      Otherwise what works for you, works.

                                      For most of our applications, I am more concerned with what I am wearing from a perception standpoint. Interactions etc.

                                      So yes, the ‘fashion’ of it is important for how you are perceived when not ‘hidden.’

                                      As Max touched on, hunting camo is ubiquitous in my AO, yet all current military patterns stand out as unique.

                                      Note: Unique in a negative way. Military pattern camo is accepted for Military Active/Reserve and children. For adults it’s considered weird and cause for caution. These negative stereotypes exist in many areas.

                                      It’s worth noting that Max and myself have mentioned concern about how peoples perceptions of us affect things. Though we both have a somewhat different take on it.

                                      YMMV

                                    • #107287
                                      RRS
                                      Participant

                                        Thanks Joe. It’s a deep rabbit hole

                                      • #107288
                                        Roadkill
                                        Participant

                                          In my area if you’re wearing a multi cam shirt with an MVT patch people will thank you for your service. ?

                                        • #107289
                                          Corvette
                                          Participant

                                            I’ve worn Multicam, woodland and coyote in the grocery store at different times and no one gave me a second look.

                                          • #107290
                                            Andrew
                                            Participant

                                              Here, in most of Texas, camo is not unusual. Deer season starts, for bow hunters in October, in November rifle season opens up and lasts, in most places until the middle of January. If you have a Managed Lands Permit (MLD) your season can last longer.

                                              Also, for varmints, hogs, and exotics, you can hunt year around, including at night, for most of them. Just gotta have a license.

                                              Add to that that people go out and check their leases during the off season to fill feeders, whatever, and you see folks in camo year round.

                                              Military camo, though doesn’t show up as often, but it is still not that out of place.

                                              Depends on where you live. All black might get the cops called in to check it out. Same way with being cammo’ed up and open carrying.

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