U.S. Merchant Marines article (larger discussion on China)

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  • This topic has 38 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 8 months, 2 weeks ago by Max. This post has been viewed 91 times
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    • #96492
      LittleBigBill
      Participant

        Here’s an article I came across that I haven’t even thought about if we were to get into a serious conflict with another super power (China, Russia).

        Merchant Marines

        I know warriors are only able to fight because of the logistics tail that supports them, but frankly I just hadn’t thought through the problems of the Navy’s logistics being dependent on the Merchant Marine.

        Add this issue to the list of improvements our nation’s armed forces need before engaging in the next large scale military action.

      • #96493
        ffhounddog
        Participant

          China has cargo shipping capacity out the wazoo. We, apparently, are lacking. Our military resources are being stretched to the limits running around the globe putting out fires that may or may not have been set by the Chinese. However, you can bet your ass they gave the son-of-a-bitch that did a box of matches, some gas, and an Uber ride fare coupon to the target.

          We are at war, cold for now, with China. They are the root source cause for much of the synthetic drugs and I suspect the heroin trafficked into the US. They are heavily involved in supplying raw materials to shithead nations like Iran and Venezuela who in turn supply it to supranational shithead groups of terrorist assholes that have a marked propensity to attack Americans and American interests.

          The Chinese have or are working with all deliberate speed to systematically co-opt literally the entire globe against US. Like Gulliver we are being tied down and deliberately distracted by Iranian, Venezuelan, Syrian, and every other shithead flavor of Lilliputian puppet. All the while China is sharpening it’s axe and practicing its swing for the day it gets to put the West down forever.

        • #96494
          Max
          Keymaster

            The China threat is the clear and present danger. More than I can give tapping away here on my phone. China will likely destroy the US without firing a shot. They have a complex strategy involving economics. For example that are / have been buying up the national debt. They own a lot of property in the US. They have fake tech firms that you think are US but are Chinese owned. They put backdoors in all conputers they sell.

            This is too much to tap. Joe, do you fancy a project? Listing the multi-threat Chinese attack on the US?

            To add: the US military is a huge problem. Not only training standards and doctrine, but just the huge hubris of assuming ‘Merica is the best cuz ‘Merica.

          • #96495
            Max
            Keymaster

              I should add that ‘without firing a shot’ is a moot point given some sort of economic strategy that pulls the rug out from under America. Whether the Chinese invade or not, or even just the west coast, is a moot point for us who would be left living on the continent in a collapse / grid down situation.

              Of course it could even go nuclear.

              Someone wrote a book with some of these premises, including a likely SCADA-aimed cyber attack, in 2013. It is called Patriot Dawn.

            • #96496
              gatlinggun
              Participant

                I just read today that the Pentagon has been tasked to begin planning for large troop movements to the Persian Gulf. Has anyone else seen anything on this?

                Would they be airlifted or sent via surface? My guess is airlift.

                With Iran threatening to go full retard, it makes me wonder if China is putting them up to it. Get the Americans to send a large portion of their troops to the middle east and get them distracted…..

                Interesting times.

              • #96497
                JohnnyMac
                Participant

                  economic strategy

                  This is by far one of the least costly routes for them, and probably would be the best outcome for them. Any sort of actual invasion would be too costly for them (at least in my opinion). I’m not sure on their force projection capability to even make it happen, on a broad scale.

                  There’s obviously nuisance, from a hybrid warfare perspective. Also, if they take some pages out of Russia’s playbook, “little green red men” could do some serious damage, especially if done concurrently with widespread cyber attacks. Nevermind the (admittedly wild speculation) of the possibility of a China-Russia Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact ala 1939

                • #96498
                  veritas556
                  Participant

                    @Max

                    or example that are / have been buying up the national debt. They own a lot of property in the US.

                    These are actually reasons China is fucked. They can’t fuck with our currency or debt because they will lose big $$ if they dump our debt. They can’t generally fuck with our economy or real estate because we are joined at the hip in such matters. And they need to sell shit to us to feed their people. They also need our food exports for the same.

                    That said, they’re a threat because they’ve backed themselves into an economic corner because of their trade surplus with us. These new tariffs we put on them are the real shot over their bow. Don’t be surprised if they pull a Japan – it was economic insecurity that predicated Pearl Harbor.

                  • #96499
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      These are actually reasons China is fucked.

                      So when China and the US go to war what happens to the the global economy?

                      It collapses!

                      A global reset is not really a collapse when everyone is hit, beyond the actual physical combat.

                      Why do you think the BRIC nations are stocking up their gold reserves?

                    • #96500
                      veritas556
                      Participant

                        @Joe The USA has far more wealth, a battle tested military and the reserve currency. I like our chances ;)

                      • #96501
                        First Sergeant
                        Moderator

                          As was said above, China is a paper tiger. Their economic situation is fucked, which is one of the reasons why Trump has them over a barrel right now. They have put themselves into a position that without the U.S. market they will collapse.

                          They also have demographic and agricultural issues.

                          China does not have the sealift capability to invade. They might make it across to Taiwan, maybe. Their aircraft carrier is a joke. Their anti ship missile capability is not a joke.

                          @gatlinggun, One of the reasons is Iran has started moving missiles by boat in the Gulf. Part of what we are doing is a show of force. Iran has been hit hard by the sanctions imposed after we pulled out of that dumbass agreement we had with them, which was basically just paying them bribe money. They also have demographic issues that are coming to a head. They are having internal security issues that they are not publicizing, their troops keep getting deaded.

                          FILO
                          Signal Out, Can You Identify
                          Je ne regrette rien
                          In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                        • #96502
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            @Joe The USA has far more wealth, a battle tested military and the reserve currency. I like our chances ;)

                            While I am not pessimistic about our chances, we are not ready and we are not battle tested against a close to peer adversary.

                          • #96503
                            First Sergeant
                            Moderator

                              @Joe The USA has far more wealth, a battle tested military and the reserve currency. I like our chances ;)

                              While I am not pessimistic about our chances, we are not ready and we are not battle tested against a close to peer adversary.

                              That is the truth.

                              The one problem I see is that the Chinese capabilities are blown out of proportion. Same as was done with the Soviets.

                              FILO
                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                              Je ne regrette rien
                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                            • #96504
                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                              Moderator

                                The one problem I see is that the Chinese capabilities are blown out of proportion. Same as was done with the Soviets.

                                No doubt, but depending on where we fight their numbers are staggering.

                                In many assessments we have as much as a 50 to 1 kill ratio, but when facing 75 to 1 odds, you can still lose.

                                When are our military is trained to standard and gear properly maintained we are truly one of the most capable forces in existence.

                                However that doesn’t describe our current state of readiness.

                              • #96505
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  Wow, lots of Koolaid drinking here. Lot’s of thinking inside the box.

                                  China and Russia are buying up gold. China does not care about it’s people. We are not even talking ground fighting ability at this point. China has a huge cyber capability. We cannot afford to honor the debt if China calls it in.

                                  If China makes a move, they can collapse the US. Outside of the box, that is a reset for them. Our ‘reserve currency’ is meaningless once we are collapsed, and the world econonmy resets to whatever, another currency or gold, whatever.

                                  China and Russia made a deal to bypass the petrodollar, to further weaken US currency. The dollar is paper. Paper tiger. It depends on belief in the current system, which is not relevant once that system is smashed.

                                  China are creating seed companies, mainly technology, scalping all our best talent in the belief they are US companies. This makes our technolog talent China owned. Helps steal intellectual property. This also helps with the Trojan horse of cyber / tech attacks on the SCADA system. That is your collapse.

                                  The military, in particular military intelligence and cyber, is filled with Chinese, even straight off the boat Chinese. They won’t get into some agencies such as NSA, but they get into the military. The military is largely too politically correct to do anything about it. Chinese also culturally stay loyal to China, with close family members back over there. They are also very ethnocentric.

                                  Russia amd China are furiously buying gold. Russia is the 5th and China the 6th biggest gold holders in the world.

                                  This is a very big topoc to be tapped out on a cell phone. It is bigger than thr responses I have seen so far. Getting Patriotic about military comparative capabilities, or beliefs in, is not helping. We are all living in a thought box of how the system currently is. In order to reach ascendency over the US, the system needs to be collapsed.

                                  There is an argument that China owning our debt and being a trade partner weakens the Chinese position.

                                  I’m not saying this happens tomorrow. Conditions are likely not evolved. Make no mistake that even most of the microchips and mother boards in military systems have chinese components. Stuff can be turned on in your compiter, on the mother board, including two-way microphones, without knowledge or trace. I’m not talking your microphone, I mean on the motherboard.

                                  Edit: I’m laughing at the idea that the Chinese military is a paper tiger. By what standards? The US military is largely a piece of crap and thus a paper tiger, made up of untrained low quality ‘concripts’ (college money). Hamstrung by political correctness and poor training. Only some units are worth anything, and the military as a whole is noot trained or conditioned for a peer to peer fight if it ever came to it. But ‘Merica! On top of that, it is true that China has more people than the land resources they have. That gives them two things 1) they don’t care if some peasants die 2) ever hear of ‘Lebensraum’ from Nazi Germany? Maybe part of the west coast would be nice for resettlement when all the fat Amercanski have died after the cyber attack?

                                • #96506
                                  RobRoy
                                  Participant

                                    My guess is that the Chinese mil is all over this country, one instance is that a buddy’s son had a local delivery route in the Chicago area and one of his stops was a warehouse of some sorts that had all Chinese men all with military bearing, extrapolate that thruout the country.

                                    While I don’t buy the superman shtick that is peddled about the Chinese mil it is obvious that America’s weaknesses are obvious, and 90% of our political class in DC would bend over for the Chinese oligarchs like truck stop whores.

                                    Basically what Max says.

                                  • #96507
                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                    Moderator

                                      This issue is more complicated than this discussion has revealed to this point.

                                      Additionally we aren’t talking just China, but the BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa). Of course China is on top of this group.

                                      A global reset is not really a collapse when everyone is hit, beyond the actual physical combat.

                                      This is unappreciated fact that most don’t seem to grasp!

                                      …their numbers are staggering.

                                      This is not just an issue of military strength or their capability to take a hit on their cheaply valued civilian lives.

                                      Consider the combined populations of the BRICS nations. Do the math then get back to me. ;-)

                                      All of that said China is not in any rush, they truly think long term politically. We can only hope they get impatient.

                                      I don’t think this will happen before our own issues come to the forefront. The question of outcome depends on the actual particulars and whether they can take advantage of that specific situation.

                                    • #96508
                                      RobRoy
                                      Participant

                                        Is the US Navy ready for war? My guesstimation it would prevail in keeping open the sea lanes to America’s allies, barely.

                                      • #96509
                                        Max
                                        Keymaster

                                          Not to say Patriot Dawn was a prediction, because I am not that arrogant and also I was really just setting a possible scene for the scenario. However, to follow up on Joe, in that scenario the Chinese jumped on top of a current domestic crisis in the US. Thus it was a decision of an opportune time to break the US fully, given that the current economic balance we have now was broken. Reset time.

                                        • #96510
                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                          Moderator

                                            However, to follow up on Joe, in that scenario the Chinese jumped on top of a current domestic crisis in the US.

                                            This is a realistic scenario.

                                            If anyone here hasn’t read these, you should!

                                            Additionally reading them again after having conducted training at VTC will bring out much more value.

                                            In my opinion they aren’t a one time use series.

                                          • #96511
                                            Spoon
                                            Participant

                                              Deep subject matter. Where do I begin.

                                              I have my opinions about China. I work in the MilIndCom and I see things I don’t like. Like Chinese born citizens in positions of software control. And I see it over and over again. I have second hand knowledge of people born in China, getting their citizenship, going to college and work at the highest levels with the NSA. Compartmentalized stuff. Not saying there is espionage there but i am saying it happens and it makes me suspicious. That being said my opinion of China is they have created nothing of any substance whatsoever. Nearly everything they have was stolen from the west or given to them by Russia in more recent years. They are a culture of thieves.

                                              I like gold (I recommend Valcambi Suisse CombiBar), but in the global scheme of things I don’t think it will make much difference. Its all going to come down to resources, basically oil. We have Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar. If our intelligence services have their way we will have Venezuela as well. Being that Venezuela provides all of Cuba’s oil guess what…. they will fall too. If that happens the Western Hemisphere is basically secure with the exception of Bolivia, Uruguay, El Salvador and I believe Nicaragua (maybe Guatemala… I forget) I’ll take that situation. They can call in their debt if they want. We will just default and invade whatever countries we have to in order to control there oil…. like Iran… the largest oil provider to China. We will control it and choke it off. Then we will cut off their food because they don’t have the arable land like we do to produce food. Guess what happens when you have 1.3 trillion poor and starving Chinamen. We don’t have to take over China anymore. The Chinese will do it for us. They can control all of the currency they want to include gold. Gold and silver are the same as paper currency. It has no intrinsic value other then the faith that man puts into it. I can’t eat it, I can’t drink it, I can’t roll it up and smoke it and I can’t pour it into my gas tank. As it stands right now the US controls the worlds real tangible resources.

                                              I will end this post with this but I suspect I will be back…

                                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

                                              This an academic paper published in Russia (conveniently 2-3 years before Putin taking office). It is said that it is taken very seriously inside of political, party and military circles in Russia. I believe it to be the ideological source for all of the mayhem over the past 20 years. Sorry post wikipedia… as far as I know the book has not been translated to English.

                                            • #96512
                                              Max
                                              Keymaster

                                                @spoon – facing which, China launches the cyber attack of which they are capable, and takes down our SCADA systems and plunges us into a grid down situation.

                                                Still inside the box thinking.

                                                China may be thieves of intellectual property, but they are intelligent and they now own it. 90% of all computer components come from China. Complete with backdoors.

                                                China is inside our everything.

                                              • #96513
                                                Spoon
                                                Participant

                                                  China is inside our everything.

                                                  You will get no argument from me. It is our fault for allowing it.

                                                  China launches the cyber attack of which they are capable, and takes down our SCADA systems and plunges us into a grid down situation.

                                                  That will be unbelievably detrimental to you and me but to the bureaucracy and corporatocracy that that perpetrates war to effect global policy…. not so much I think. I don’t think that would be near enough to stall the west from fulfilling it mission, might actually make it worse for the Chinese… more resolve. I have no academic arguments for such things but it is just what my gut tells me. I find it hard to believe that the mechanisms of policy and war are grid dependent. The economy would certain suffer…. badly. But war perpetrators always get theirs… and they hedge their bets. Makes thankful that I am a slave to the American bureaucracy vs a Chinese one.

                                                • #96514
                                                  Max
                                                  Keymaster

                                                    @spoon – this comes from the thinking that the US Gov / mil is better than we think they are. Super secret bunkers and such. In my example of a SCADA attack, it all goes down. Combat effectiveness is zero. That is my final comment.

                                                  • #96516
                                                    Robert
                                                    Participant

                                                      There was a shitty post apoc film a while back called “Dragon Day” and it was predicated on chips in everything going down as Max mentioned. 5th columnists in the US helped the Chinese after that.

                                                    • #96517
                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                      Moderator

                                                        SCADA attacks are truly misunderstood by most people.

                                                        I find it hard to believe that the mechanisms of policy and war are grid dependent.

                                                        This about much more than the grid!

                                                        In fact the grid going down is a relatively minor problem that could still cause millions of deaths.

                                                        Pipe lines, nuclear power plants, refineries can all be destroyed, to name a few. Commercial Transportation has some scary vulnerabilities.

                                                        Consider Communications infrastructure…

                                                        Communications failures are not always as simple as lost communications, consider intermittent failures by design, or messages actually changing content. Partial communications can cause bigger issues than no communications.

                                                        Vulnerabilities due to computer chip failure by remote signal.

                                                        Also consider those that have these capabilities are not stupid, use of cutouts, terrorist cells, insurgents, fifth column could prevent identification of true perpetrators.

                                                        It is impossible to fully cover military vulnerabilities in this format.

                                                        Israel Responds To Cyber Attack With Air Strike On Cyber Attackers In World First

                                                        Excerpt:

                                                        An Israeli air strike has reportedly destroyed the HQ of Hamas’ cyber capability in a world first. Never before has military force been used against a real-time cyber threat in this way.

                                                        Consider the possibility of a cyber ruse to get another country attacked under false pretense.

                                                        Finally consider the fact that there are people within our country who are not spies, not under foreign control or influence that would be happy to conduct such operations for their own agendas.

                                                        Things are not as clearcut and simple as we wish.

                                                      • #96518
                                                        Spoon
                                                        Participant

                                                          @g-w-n-s – If all this is true I must profess my ignorance of SCADA infrastructure. I am perplex how something can be physically damaged by hacking it but then again I am no hacker (wish I was). I supposed you could damage a processing device that is responsible for cooling systems for a fission reactor. But why in gods name would somebody want that in the net. I am confused. I guess I don’t understand and I will take any resources you have to offer

                                                        • #96519
                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                          Moderator

                                                            Before SCADA you had people throwing switches and turning valves as an example.

                                                            If your throw the wrong switch or turn the wrong valve infrastructure can be put in a condition to cause catastrophic failure.

                                                            There are methods to cause physical damage to some computers systems, but that is different than what we are talking about.

                                                            Here’s a basic overview…

                                                            Why SCADA?

                                                            SCADA is an acronym that denotes Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition. SCADA is a control system with applications in managing large-scale, automated industrial operations. Factories and plants, water supply systems, nuclear and conventional power generator systems etc are a few examples.

                                                            The SCADA system consists of one Central Terminal (which could be several miles away from the site of operations) and one or several remote sensor terminals close to the site of operations. The sensor units send data to the central terminal which monitors and manages this data. Communication devices, a user interface and the software to make it all work together complete the picture of what makes a SCADA system.

                                                            Where SCADA Scores

                                                            There are several systems that have been in use for decades now, used for similar purposes. These are collectively called Distributed Control Systems (DCS). Such systems are highly effective in a closed area like a factory complex. But these systems cannot be used for large territories which come into the picture in the case of gas/oil pipelines, water supply systems and so on. There are also instances like nuclear fusion facilities where the operations are remote controlled due to safety considerations. SCADA is a system tailor-made for such requirements.

                                                            Benefits of SCADA

                                                            A SCADA system when applied properly can help industries to save time and money. One reason is that with SCADA, you can eliminate the need for site visits by your personnel for inspection, adjustments and data collection. SCADA software enables you to monitor the operations in real time. It can also make modifications to the system, auto-generate reports and trouble-shoot.

                                                            Thus once the system is installed, it reduces operational costs and improves the efficiency of the set-up. SCADA systems are equipped to make immediate corrections in the operational system, so they can increase the life-period of your equipment and save on the need for costly repairs. It also translates into man-hours saved and personnel enabled to focus on tasks that require human involvement. Further, the auto-generated reporting system ensures compliance with regulatory principles.

                                                            The Future of SCADA

                                                            The large territories and huge volumes of data SCADA can handle form a formidable combination. Today’s SCADA systems can manage anything from a few thousands to one million of input/output channels.

                                                            The technology is still evolving in terms of sophistication as well. SCADA systems as they are now can perform a large variety of tasks and some systems have artificial intelligence built into them. They are also more network-enabled, thus paving the way for voice-data-control data convergence. With proper planning and a custom-made installation, a SCADA system becomes a valuable asset.

                                                          • #96520
                                                            Spoon
                                                            Participant

                                                              @g-w-n-s – I am going to have to chew on this for awhile

                                                            • #96521
                                                              JohnnyMac
                                                              Participant

                                                                @zeerf might have a unique perspective

                                                              • #96522
                                                                Spoon
                                                                Participant

                                                                  I created a new thread because I felt it was worthy of discussion but wanted to move it away from this thread.

                                                                  https://forum.maxvelocitytactical.com/forums/topic/all-things-scada/

                                                                • #96523
                                                                  First Sergeant
                                                                  Moderator

                                                                    The reason for the “paper tiger” comment is that China does not have the ability to move large numbers of troops in a short amount of time. They have no way of protecting them with air power if it is away from land based airfields.

                                                                    They have one working carrier and are working on a second. The problem with the carrier is they have no institutional knowledge on how to conduct carrier operations. They are still trying to learn how to do that. That’s why I said that they could probably make it across to Taiwan. They would still be in range of land based air cover from the mainland.

                                                                    China right now, like North Korea, is trying to figure out how to deal with their new reality. Since Truman was in office they have been used to getting what they want with basically no push back.

                                                                    North Korea would have fallen under it’s own weight years ago except we kept sending them grain. Nobody had the balls to say no. Clinton, Bush, Obama are all guilty of that. China is incapable of helping NK with food because they can’t even feed themselves. They are importing rice from us.

                                                                    Is our military ready for anything like a peer to peer or near peer fight? Fuck no. I don’t think it ever will be. The people in charge don’t know how to get ready for that because they refuse to believe that we could ever loose. That’s the problem, hubris.

                                                                    If MacArthur would have been listened to, we wouldn’t have this problem.

                                                                    The cyber stuff is not in doubt. That started with the Clinton’s giving them all kinds of info and backdoors. It hasn’t slowed down since. That is a whole nother ball of wax that is going to take years to try and rectify.

                                                                    FILO
                                                                    Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                    Je ne regrette rien
                                                                    In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                  • #96524
                                                                    Anonymous
                                                                    Inactive

                                                                      In the case of an open conflict, I’m not sure how much less fucked the Chinese markets would be by holding back economically, so they could go for scorched earth tactics, though I can’t claim to be an expert on US and Chinese trade and financial deficits. China is becoming more and more influential in trade worldwide, though, their new Silk Road program is intentionally a means to diversify and expand their markets, because they’d be stupid to do otherwise. Would a war hurt them now? Sure. Fifteen years from now? Who knows.

                                                                      If you want to know how China is playing, look at Africa. They’re not directly confronting the US, they’re just filling in the vacuums in US interest, building support and dependence on China while the Americans are distracted. It’s not a plan to wage war against America next year, it’s a plan to outmaneuver and render us irrelevant in thirty years. I see a long game in their thinking.

                                                                      If we fight China in the South China Sea, I don’t see how we win. They’re developing all the necessary technology and infrastructure to resist US incursions and our regional allies (if you can call countries like Vietnam “allies”) lack the physical power and motivation to hold back a Chinese assault and deny them a quick victory before US reinforcements arrive. China is making long-term preparations for an invasion of Taiwan and guess what? Most Taiwanese are already accepting defeat against the mere suggestion of an invasion.

                                                                      Chinese interference stateside would very much include attacks on the grid, they’ve already claimed they would do as much. I can imagine very successful sabotage and espionage but I can’t see them successfully backing insurgent groups in the same manner as the Russians because they lack the same experience in hybrid warfare. The last attempt of any kind of outright backing of militants of any sort I’m aware of was Norinco offering tanks and rocket launchers to LA gang members that happened to be undercover FBI agents, which is why we can’t get any nice Norinco guns. I can see them spreading chaos through infrastructure attacks but being incapable of directing the chaos that follows to their advantage.

                                                                      I don’t see Red Dawn happening with Chinese paratroopers, because they don’t have the blue water capability to project that much power across the ocean. What they do have is leverage, including forcing an American film studio to do a shitty job post-production to make Chinese antagonists into North Koreans, which made the remake even more unbelievable. ;-)

                                                                      Just my two cents.

                                                                    • #96525
                                                                      Hessian
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        The US empire is in decline. The west in general has lost its sanity, with out healthy men of sound mind the west is headed for some dark days.

                                                                        @rampantraptor is correct. The Chinese with their new silk road and the colonizing of Africa is giving them a new means of food production. The Chinese have no qualms with pushing out the natives to run the farms. Typically China always runs into famine issues which in the past has ended every dynasty the have had in the past.

                                                                        The Chinese are also using birthright citizenship as a means of infiltrating the country. Being on a plane headed to the US and giving birth can give that child US citizenship. Interestingly enough United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) and the interpretation of that ruling (along with the 14th) leads us the current birth right citizenship of today.

                                                                        China does not have the capability for an invasion beyond its regional neighbors. With possible attacks on the grid and other systems making life uncomfortable for a majority of the US populace. This could result in handing over territories to the Chinese to have them turn the ‘lights back on’ so that people can continue their soft “happy” lives.

                                                                      • #96526
                                                                        Max
                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                          We are still not understanding the threat created by technology in this new age. Thinking about land warfare is really a red herring. It’s not gonna be about how much ammo you need for your belt-fed at the Choisin Reservoir, against human wave Chinese attacks.

                                                                          People are ignorant because this stuff is not covered in the news. They have an unfailing belief in the current way of things, and cannot see a threat to the US that is credible. I’ll not say this is going to happen tomorrow, but when the stars align for the Chinese / Russians. I can’t really tell you enough how THEY ARE INSIDE THE TECHNOLOGY. They supply most of it, even if they stole it from the west.

                                                                          In terms of land warfare threats, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that they would employ behind the lines special forces units similar to Spetznaz in order to create that 5th column and the physical infrastructure attacks to the cyber warfare. Also, given that we physically had to introduce the Stuxnet virus into Iranian systems by USB, if that additional level was needed, there are enough Chinese in high places to get that done. Thus possible covert and overt action.

                                                                          It is imperative to understand that SCADA and similar systems are all networked. Cyber attacks can be weaponized.

                                                                          Once the systems are down in the US, domestic elements will do the rest of the killing and chaos.

                                                                          If traced to China, I would not be surprised if the US Government goes nuclear. The simple fact that they would be hoodwinked like that would create rage on top of hubris like never seen.

                                                                          The US Military is living a hubristic dream that it is the best in the world at everything. Cuz ‘Merica. It’s actually mostly a bag of balls. Yes, great weapons technology. Some great units. All that CQB focus of the SF type units and cool gear and stuff isn’t going to get shit done when MLRS is raining down on your position. It’s all for the GWOT. But that mostly doesn’t matter anyway. And either way, the US military is a huge horrific bureaucracy run with incompetence at all levels, both military and civilian bureaucracy. You think they even have the institutional wit to plan and prepare for this shit? Where does this sudden trust in a government department come from on a Liberty-orientated forum?

                                                                          Let’s have a bit of humor, as there is often more truth in humor than you would expect. These cynical comedy articles would never be written if there was not a grain of truth:

                                                                          Soldier submits award packet to Chinese hackers after S1 delays

                                                                          China Announces ‘US Intelligence Officer’ Job Openings

                                                                          Chinese Hackers Access Performance Reviews Of 3 Million Shitty Federal Workers

                                                                          Contractor Designs Air Force Jet, Chinese Missile To Shoot It Down

                                                                        • #96527
                                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                          Moderator

                                                                            Though much of this makes for interesting conversation and it’s certainly important to understand the threat.

                                                                            This understanding is important for preparations and spreading the word to the ignorant.

                                                                            What is of little use is the idea that we can come up with a plan for the Government to implement to prevent this or even mitigate this threat.

                                                                            I personally lean towards one of the many possible black swan events compromising an existing vulnerability long before one of our many enemies can implement their long term plan to destroy us.

                                                                            This could provide an opening for one or more of these enemies to exploit that vulnerability we find ourselves in at that point. Consider Max’s books for one of many scenarios.

                                                                            I encourage everyone to read up on these technologies to understand these threats. If after educating yourself you have specific questions I’ll answer them.

                                                                            The majority have much homework to do in order to have a legitimate discussion regarding this.

                                                                            A quick note back to the original post, we didn’t have enough sealift capability during the cold war and its worse now. We don’t have the money or political desire to to build that capability. Finally we do not have the infrastructure to build this capability on short notice such as during WWII.

                                                                            So ultimately we don’t have the ability to project large-scale heavy ground forces worldwide in short notice, particularly in contested waterways.

                                                                          • #96528
                                                                            RobRoy
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              I would not doubt that Russia or China is using the Iranian bait to help bring about the Black Swan or Middle Eastern tar pit for the USA and its empire.

                                                                            • #96529
                                                                              Sitting Duck
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                The Box: How the Shipping Container Made the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger
                                                                                Book by Marc Levinson.

                                                                                It’s a good book and puts a little light on the history of shipping. We move more with less faster than ever. The ships are quickly obsolete. Significant amount of history on Vietnam logistics.

                                                                                It’s definitely different from the days of Liberty ships.

                                                                                I spent a little time in China as they were beginning to prepare for the Olympics. Something that experience impressed upon me was the cultural change caused by the one birth policy. For every “potential cannon fodder” there are 2 parents and 4 grandparents who have everything invested in THAT kid.

                                                                                China has very long game view.

                                                                                I agree that China can control almost everything with a microchip and many things without due to human capital. Although they could easily shut down our electricity and internet on election day and spark a civil war it’s not in their own interests. We’re selling them the whole lot.

                                                                                Probably some lessons to be learned from the handover of Hong Kong.

                                                                              • #96530
                                                                                Max
                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                  None of us knows what the future will bring and what any potential collapse will look like. I wrote about that in my blog post on the collapse.

                                                                                  What we can know is capability. I hope I have made it plain that China has the capability to take the US down via cyber attack.

                                                                                  What we need to assess is intent. Intent tied in with any current plan or future intent that would provide advantage to China in taking the US down.

                                                                                  That is what needs to be assessed.

                                                                                  The frantic efforts by China and Russia to subvert the petrodollar are one indication. Note how the US goes to war with countries who subvert the petrodollar. Like the unlawful invasion of Syria to overthrow Assad, who is the lawful president of a sovereign country, and in my opinion has not used chemical weapons against his population.

                                                                                  Worrying about sea lift on either side is not really the point. It is not needed to bring about the demise of the US. Such a situation could result in use of nuclear weapons by the US on China. Would they really give a shit? Just to conjecture for a minute, what is interesting about that is that if China did desire to invade at any point, perhaps after the US has eaten itself once the grid goes down, that is a vulnerable point. For example, what if lacking sea lift they came across the Bering Strait in slow time? All it needs is a surviving nuclear launch site with sensor and command capability to take that out with a tactical nuclear strike.

                                                                                  Same deal if they decided to round up a bunch of container ships and make a landing on the west coast unopposed, long time post collapse. Is or is not there still a nuke capability that can react to that and hit Los Angeles or Portland with a tactical nuclear strike?

                                                                                  So anyway, we can surmise all we want. What we do know is capability. We need to assess intent both now and in the future. That includes opportunistic attacks if circumstances reach a point where the trade relationship is no longer beneficial.

                                                                                  We can talk current economic systems and debt and all that. Yes, the US can default. China can default. Reset the world economy. New world order. If the US is kicked off the petrodollar, we would fall like a house of cards.

                                                                                  Who wants to do the Intel assessment? :yahoo:

                                                                                • #96531
                                                                                  Max
                                                                                  Keymaster
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