Training through competition
December 4, 2016 at 11:03 pm #95324
So this past Saturday I attended a shooting competition in Bunnlevel, NC, along with @cfless and @wparkinson. Besides being a lot of fun, I think it was really solid training: this competition is specifically set up to be used as a practically oriented, and tactically based (I mean that without any of the usual overuse of the word). All the rules, stages, etc are set up with this in mind.
The match consisted of a single six minute long stage, the first part being a simulated casualty that needed to be treated according to the TCCC MARCH algorithm. For the rest of the match you gad to drag a 175 lb skedco simulating that injured casualty.
Overall, I think it was excellent training and a good time. I’ll be going back, and I think Chris and Wynn will enjoyed it too. Hopefully they’ll chime in themselves. I also tried to attached some pictures of me running the match, but it didn’t work. I’ll try to figure it out and add them in a second post … (I was wearing a GoPro, but forgot to hit start before I went through like a dolt). Anyway, comments and suggestions are welcome.
December 4, 2016 at 11:25 pm #95325zeerfParticipant
sounds fun, looking forward to checking out the video or pics when you can get them uploaded.
December 5, 2016 at 6:48 am #95326wparkinson4Participant
While it was a fun event…. I will respectfully disagree that this was a “Training” event. The most I got out of it was an excellent all be it quick medical class by ST4T3S (Thanks DOC).
While I enjoy anytime behind the gun I think that this could be used as a evaluation of your skills. I may be a little bitter since I was 28 out of 30…. …. Just kidding… I too WAAAAY to long on the medical and shot the shit out of their 9 hole board… oops… I will link video.. I think that is where all my time went was in penalties not sure since there was no critique or explanation of your score. I think they were short handed after one of the ROs walked off after someone questioned the application of the thermal blanket in the med part…
I also think there were some safety issues on that range.. people were all over the place and as Chris pointed out to me their lane angles were a bit close especially with all the people milling around.
I did enjoy it but I don’t count it as training… Sorry DOC… I have shot in different competitions over the years and I never take them too seriously. The problem is the “Game” atmosphere and not the actual technique. There were some serious game guys there….
It did smoke the shit out of me though…. I am damn glad I started doing PT or I would have been really sucking. That skidco was a bitch…
What say you Chris?
Please don’t beat me up too bad…..
December 5, 2016 at 8:50 am #95327RobertParticipant
I used to do these sorts of things back in the day.
What I found is that a lot of people went to them that did not have the base of actual good training under them. In doing so, they thought these sorts of things could substitute for training- they do not.
What happens is that the “cool kids” have figured out how to “game” everything like you all stated already. Then Joe NewGuy comes in- the one that thinks this sort of thing will take the place of actual training- and he sees the “cool kids” placing well, so he figures “hell I’ll copy the cool kids and I’ll get this down also.” Meanwhile the “cool kids” are doing all kinds of crazy non tactical stuff- sticking their weapons through the little window cutouts or around doorways -very easy takeaway- and misc. stupid crap. So Joe NewGuy doesn’t realize this is wrong, I mean crap the “cool kids” are doing it so it must be right…..
Don’t get me wrong, these things have their place, but they do NOT substitute for training, and most especially should be avoided by newer folks that might lack the fundamentals. NOT saying anyone in that applies to anyone in this thread, just saying it for the general audience.
December 5, 2016 at 9:51 am #95328SeanTKeymaster
edit and shrink the photos, they are too large to post.
I would have to agree that based on what I could see in that video, there was some safety issues.
December 5, 2016 at 10:19 am #95329
Good job to Wesley, he placed 4th out of 31. And thanks for the MARCH quick class, that really helped.
Range rules were muzzled up, always. I don’t like this and it took a conscious effort to do this. Potential training scar? I really try to keep an open mind on trying new techniques, but I am not a fan of muzzle up unless the situation calls for it, like stairwells, going up a ladder, or being on a boat for example. One person tried to explain why muzzle up is superior because the seals do it. Oh my.
Competition or training? I think that Wp and I had the only painted working rifles there. I saw things like an sti 9mm race gun, lots of mag well funnels, a suppressed shotgun, and a 60rd pmag. Gamers and gamer gear. I have no interest in tactical gear, but know cool guy gear when I see it.
Training vs competition.
If the staff would have done a debrief after, it would have been good feedback. Instead we reviewed our own video, spotted mistakes, and now can learn from them. There is a lot of merit to learning to perform under some stress, and I saw a few guys there really having a hard time on their MARCH, the electric shock collar didn’t work on me but was still distracting. Overall I made some mistakes and was able to complete this test without embarrassing myself, so I consider it a good day for a $35 range fee.
I did feel that the safety was past my comfort level. I had to drag the sled with my loaded rifle thru a crowd of people milling about. The last rifle stage was shooting diagonally across a 50′ pistol range, and there were people standing basically downrange about 60′ from the target. The video shows this well. Where does big boy rules and range safety cross? This course of fire was set up by “professional operators”, their range, their rules. Possibly this was by design, and I am just not operator enough to play with the cool kids, idk.
One shooter fell off the crappy ladder, with a loaded rifle, and about 20 people standing very close. He fell well, controlled his muzzle, but was almost a bad day. Not cool.
December 5, 2016 at 2:04 pm #95330AndrewParticipant
What happens is that the “cool kids” have figured out how to “game” everything like you all stated already.
The gaming angle is my pet peeve about IDPA. There are folks out there who will sacrifice good hits to gain time. Oh, they get great times, but they’re hit percentage sucks.
The matches I have gone to also have some very unrealistic scenarios that I would retreat from rather than engaging in the real world.
December 5, 2016 at 4:48 pm #95331RoadkillParticipant
Getting a trophy in a points only karate tournament does not a street fighter make. Same deal here. Hey,it’s still fun, but…
December 5, 2016 at 7:02 pm #95332LloydParticipant
Good points guys! Years ago I shot IDPA and 3-gun two or three times per month, but the more legit training I have gotten, the more I have shied away from it. It can help you be a better shooter, but it can also “teach” you a lot of bad/dangerous habits, running against the clock all the time. Doing stuff fast is not bad, but doing stuff right is better.
I think if you compete in the right frame of mind, you can get some benefit out of it. Performing quickly under stress. Balancing speed with precision… Don’t use it as a substitute for legit training, though.
MVT Texas 2015-2020
Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr
December 12, 2016 at 11:25 am #95333
Sorry for the delay, work has been a bitch. Anywhoo, I still think that these events are useful for training, provided that one has a baseline of real training already and goes into it with the mindset of not winning, but training. Other people running the same match with gamer gear isn’t relevant to what I do, if my mindset is right … for example, I ran the entire match in the EXACT same kit that I took to MVT. Was it the fastest? Probably not, but I don’t care about that.
For example, it is good to shoot under some stress, and running a course of fire with witnesses and while timed is a good way to induce some stress. It also tests basic fitness and mobility, etc.
As far as the range safety, I personally don’t have any problem with the high ready; I think it’s generally as safe as the patrol ready or low ready. As Chris mentioned, one person fell, but they maintained muzzle discipline (kept the muzzle pointed up) and trigger control, so I don’t count that as a bad thing. And as far as the rationale behind going muzzle up vs muzzle down, taking a participant’s word of why the range does it is like taking a student’s word about why Max does something: if it’s not from the horse’s mouth I’m skeptical, at best.
December 14, 2016 at 10:27 am #95334AndrewParticipant
Training is what you make of it, imo. The key is that unless it instills bad/dangerous habits in you (my reference to unrealistic scenarios) it is probably worthwhile in helping one get more comfortable with their gear and adapting to some form of external stress, even if it is minor.
I wasn’t trying to be negative towards the OP’s event.
December 14, 2016 at 8:50 pm #95335
Sweet monkey balls! Holy smoke! I waytched the video once on my phone. A couple of obvious points.
1) who the fuck are the jokers setting up an running this shit? Operators you say?
2) TC3 protocols all messed up. I see you engaging targets, thus we are in the care under fire phase, and thus the only intervention is TQ high and tight for exremity bleeding. Not a full MARCH.
3) Running through the parking lot with muzzle up loaded weapons, fucking with slings?
4) Muzzle down IS safer than muzzle up because if you fall you do not muzzle people. Muzzle into the deck. Muzzle up is permitted on some situations, usually based around CQB. Ready up/ engagement speeds are also faster from a muzzle down position.
5) Muzzle up muzzles the dude on to of the container with the camera. Also, if you are going to climb with both hands, weapon goes muzzle down on the sling.
6) Barricade shooting: sweet monkey nuts, height over fucking bore! See all the rounds going through the wood?
7) safety angles, particularly on steel, are fucking iffy from the rooftop and then the next range before the shotgun. Shooting at an angle across to to the lefrlt, when there are ranhes and spectators to the left and through those dividing buildings. But didn’t give that amy more analysis than a once over on my phone.
Come on guys, here at MVT we offer professional training. Thia was far from that. Total BS run by monkeys. Oh, but it was cheap at $35? Just like tactical gear, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
We are better than that here. You would have been better off setting up some simple shooting lanes based on drills taught at MVT. Make sure you have the safety angles.
December 14, 2016 at 10:16 pm #95336wheelseeParticipant
Just like tactical gear, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Caution on different learning and potential bad habits. Motor learning actually happens in the brain versus in the individual muscle. If you learn a bad habit, it is difficult to retrain as the brain still stores the “erroneous ” information.
Learn it right the first time……
December 14, 2016 at 10:26 pm #95337
I’m going to answer your points in an attempt to explain the event and draw out any further benefit (from a perspective of “what could be done better”). I’m not affiliated with the range or competition, I’m just a participant. I am also not the one in the video, I’m just speaking from my experience and impressions at the two of these competitions I’ve been to.
1) Raidon Tactics runs these events, here’s a link. In case you don’t care to check the link, the straight scoop is that the range, the monthly competitions, and the training company are all owned & run by the same guy, Frankie McRae, a former 18D.
2) The medical scenario started with you running to a casualty “in cover” (even though they weren’t fully behind the barrels) and the bad guys downrange not in play. The bad guys “come alive” at some point in your assessment, you’re then supposed to engage them and then go back to treating your patient.
If I were setting up the course, I would have set it up to TQ on the X (possibly with a RTR/CUF phase first), displace with patient to cover, go into TFC, then potentially re-engage and move off that spot into cover somewhere else. I would also have required a brief reassessment of interventions after every patient movement throughout the event, with appropriate fixes if something is wrong. I brought this up to one of the RSO’s (Frankie wasn’t at this particular event, so I couldn’t ask him directly), and he said that the reason it was set up this way was because they were assuming minimal medical training. I was told this was done in an effort to make the event more accessible, i.e. to encourage more people to participate.
As far as the specific medical interventions, Wynn had no medical background except a 10 minute long brief from me before running the course, so considering that, he did pretty well, I think. Medical isn’t an easy skill set. By doing this, he identified a set of skills he needs to improve, which is worth the price of admission alone, in my opinion. He also posted it here, for public review, which is pretty bold. Kudos Wynn.
3) I’m not sure what exactly you’re referencing here.
4) I understand where you’re coming from Max, the exact way you advocate to carry while at MVT is probably the safest way to move with a rifle in a ready position. However, for people who haven’t been to MVT, when most people carry at muzzle down the rifle is held more or less across their body, vice your method of punching the muzzle forward a bit and carrying the rifle basically along the sagittal plane. If you fall forward with the rifle muzzle down and carried across the body the rifle will likely turn horizontal in the fall and you will sweep your left (or right, if the muzzle is on the right). If you fall forward with the rifle muzzle up (in the high port, to be precise) and keep the rifle in the same orientation relative to your body as you fall, you should only sweep downrange, which should be a safe direction. With the MVT muzzle down carry, the muzzle should end up basically in the dirt, or possibly oriented downrange, in a forward fall.
That is, I’m guessing, the rationale behind carrying the way they do. Again, the MVT method is probably the absolute safest, and it would probably be better if Frankie ran it that way; I’ll even suggest it to him. But, is high port a method of carry with a reasonable degree of safety? I think so, but I’m open to hearing what other people think. No dogma, right?
5) That it does. He wasn’t up there when I went, and I wouldn’t have felt comfortable with him up there before me. I don’t think he should have been allowed up there, but if he was willing to get shot, then I guess it’s his call. (That’s my personal responsibility/libertarian tendency talking, but I totally get if you disagree. If I were that photographer, I would not have done what he did.)
6) Wynn got penalized for every one of those shots. That’s a personal skill issue though, not a range issue (the RSOs did mention height over bore considerations during the general safety brief and on again when discussing that part of the event). But him doing that in training, learning the error, and then working to fix it is the entire goal of training, isn’t it?
7) FYI, There weren’t any rifle targets that were steel, only pistol and shotgun. I do think the safety angles could have/should have been improved, especially on the last two parts (the post-pistol rifle and shotgun), but again, my libertarian side says that if people are willing to expose themselves, then it’s on them. I 100% understand Chris’s and Max’s comments that they were a little close for comfort, but I, personally, felt comfortable in my ability to control the rifle and not muzzle anyone during the event. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have participated.
December 15, 2016 at 4:39 am #95338wparkinson4Participant
Yea.. I will say my last medical training was a looooong time ago. I did take CLS ( Combat Life Saver) via correspondence course!!! It’s a weak spot I gotta work on.
Hight over bore…. yea I fucked that up. I have never shot a 9 hole board it was something new to me. It did make some pretty little holes though. It’s remarkable how well the supressor contains the blast.. again something I gotta work on.
If we learn from our mistakes we get better… right?
December 15, 2016 at 6:20 am #95339
I’m not going to argue this shit with you on the forum. None of my points references the specific medical training or actions of the filmed competitor.
I woke up with nightmares about how that range was run, and came here to check the thread, and see you here trying to defend it. Bullshit. It is ludicrous to me that people are worried about coming to MVT where there is movement ‘forward of the line’ but this is how other ranges are run. Totally incompetent and I assume that this 18D does not have live fire range setup and safety as part of his skillset. Not his qualification or skillset – not a professional. There are all sorts in SF, from the awesome to the shite, it is big organization. Stop being blinded to anyone with an SF designator.
Arguing this muzzle up/down thing is complete BS. I don’t give a fuck what incompetencies exist out there. Training is required, with a full safety brief, before people run around with others with live weapons. THERE IS NO EXCUSE OR JUSTIFICATION.
Muzzle down must be done correctly, specifically without swinging the muzzle to the side. It is not only the safest method, but it is the only method that works for real when conducting patrolling/tactical movement. In this way, it is also the best way to bring your rifle into the fight in a contact situation. Muzzle up is used in specific situations, such as CQB. Are you really arguing this operational / safety point with me?
Also, if you fall with weapon muzzle up, it will swing full arc across people on the way down. Muzzle down just goes into the dirt.
I don’t really give a fuck about ‘the libertarian in you.’ That is totally irrelevant to range safety, competence and operational efficiency. There is no room for libertarians in a rifle squad. MVT is an absolute tyranny, and the more I see and the older I get the more of an absolutist I become. Why? Because people are weak, untrained and incompetent.
So I’m not going to tolerate the arguing of standards, common sense, and safety on this, the private MVT forum. There has already been too much free exposure for this bullshit range/competition. Next step I’ll delete the whole thread.
IMO 3 Gun is an aberration, a fucking stain on training, a massive training scar teaching people all the wrong things. I don’t care about it ‘getting people involved’ because I don’t give a fuck about the vast majority of bullshit gun hobbyists out there. I only care about those with the right attitude and motivation for real tactical training. Don’t come here and try and justify the wrong.
December 15, 2016 at 6:35 am #95340
And your BS point about ‘saggital plane’ and muzzle up falling only downrange is total crap. You assume that they are facing downrange when it happens, and that they have some control over it. Mostly people fall like a sack of shit. Ask anyone here who has fallen on the MVT ranges. This is a case of intellectual over-analyzing and the search for absolutes at the expense of experience and common sense. Something I warn about at class.
Ask me how I know? Maybe 25 years of running around with guns, muzzle up, horizontal, down, whatever. Muzzle dowm isn’t even just about safety, it’s about getting the gun in the fight fastest after an 8 hour patrol.
But the SEALs do it right? Actually they do it foe specific reasons, which I have also alluded to with some CQB situations. I have never seen a SEAL patrolling with muzzle up.
December 15, 2016 at 6:38 am #95341
Haha. He left. Ego. Such bullshit. Don’t come here and tell me what is right and wrong about safety on some BS 3 gun range and expect to not get told the truth about your bullshit.
Let this thread stand as an example of ego and bullshit at play. It is not gonna fly at MVT. Standards are immovable. We will not accept justifications for the poor standards of other organizations and individuals.
LOL: MVT makes another disgruntled customer to add to the list, out there bumping his gums about what an asshole Max is. *sigh*
December 15, 2016 at 7:04 am #95342
Go on, someone post a yeager thread or similar, and justify the bullshit, and we can go done this road again, and see how many snowflakes delete their membership…
December 15, 2016 at 9:28 am #95343DuaneHParticipant
I see you are not drinking decaf anymore Max.
All I can say “Holy Dumbassery Batman.”
I thought some of the stuff I did early on was bad.
The problem is this stuff IS popular and increasing. It’s popular because it’s fun, relatively easy and time limited. Unlike a 3 day CTT or something where you are dog tired at the end.
Realistic, not so much.
The problem I have is convincing people who do this, that they need to move past this and on to more realistic classes. Apparently this type of stuff is addictive or something.
December 15, 2016 at 9:42 am #9534471SierraParticipant
In my opinion is the whole discussion is good. Arguing both sides brings up perspective and ability to discuss the merits or fallacies. The fact is, its pretty hard to find the truth as it is normally obscured by idiocy, ignorance and/or arrogance. At least here the discussion can be on the table. I’d ask do not delete except for the other school references. It is an insight I would not have, if it were not posted.
December 15, 2016 at 9:53 am #95345
Well, I understand your point and will not delete, because I think it needed to be said and was said. It does, however, make my head hurt when people come here and trot out their bullshit, as if they expect a different answer in terms of safety and professionalism. And then get butthurt and delete themselves when I am not drinking their Koolaid.
There is so much BS out there, it hurts. And what is worse, is when this is done under the auspices of someone who is apparently an ’18D’ and thus gets a pass due to groupie-ism. I know a few of these SF Guys. I’m a fucking fan of what they do – I think if there is any US Mil organization that I have an affinity to more than others, it would be SF – because I am at heart a trainer, and that is what their job is supposed to be. I can tell you that the stories I hear from the inside point to a large organization with a lot of incompetence embedded within the excellence.
What was written above, however, should not be viewed as a back and forth ‘he said, she said’ but as absolutes in terms of range safety and professionalism.
December 15, 2016 at 10:33 am #95346hellokittyParticipant
I have been going to training schools for over a decade. I have shot IPSC and IPDA long time ago. But I quit participating in competitions a long time ago, because they cause training scars specifically in tactics. Every competition group out there is tactically unsound. And it will get you killed. Example: Tyler, TX courthouse shooting 2005. I lived there. I am friends with one of the LEOs that shot the shooter. I also know who the concealed carry guy who was killed, although not a friend. I know the back story. The CC fellow was a HUGE IPSC/IDPA competitor. He took on a guy with an AK47 and body armor. He reverted to his competition scarred training. He shot the bad guy just like he did it in IPSC/IDPA. He did not use cover effectively and he never once tried to shoot bad guy below or above body armor. He got schwacked. He was VERY BRAVE, RIP. But his training did not keep him alive. I am sure he thought he was trained to handle that situation.
So no, 3 gun competition is not training. It’s just plinking with rules. And IMO it can be detrimental.
HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
HEAT 2 (CP) X1
December 15, 2016 at 11:55 am #95347
Thank you for sharing that story, I found it very moving.
December 15, 2016 at 12:02 pm #95348wheelseeParticipant
There is so much BS out there, it hurts.
Caution – not everyone who teaches, including organizations, knows what they’re talking about. Find the hidden story.
1990s..large sheriff’s dept, NW LA. As a deputy, we were taught Defensive Tactics (DT). On SWAT, we learned it was crap – didn’t hurt the offender but put us at risk. Each of us had to figure out what worked, most did some form of martial art, I did Aikido. We learned much later that it was cheaper for the Dept to pay out survivor benefits than to defend against a lawsuit.
Lesson – understand the WHY of what’s being taught and it’s effectiveness.
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