The Effects of Military Culture on the Boogaloo

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    • #115607

        I, like many others around here, think that there is a high likelihood of some level of military conflict in the United States in the next few years. I have been giving some thought to the specifics of how such a conflict might be fought, and I wanted to see if I could open a discussion here about it. I may well be wrong about some of the details of the things I want to discuss, and would be happy to be corrected.

        My premise is that the military culture , ie the weapons and tactics, of a country is going to determine how a civil war in that country is fought. By examining the military culture of the US, we may get a picture of how our civil wars will be fought.

        Many of the civil wars fought in the last thirty years have been either in the Warsaw Pact countries (Yugoslav Wars, Chechnya, Ukraine) or in former Soviet client states (Syria, Libya, Africa in general). The Warsaw Pact was a land power, with an emphasis on tanks and artillery, and universal conscription. So, for instance, when the Yugoslav Wars kicked off, it was relatively easy for militia groups to grab hold of some tanks and tube artillery, find somebody who knew how to drive a tank or fire a cannon, and go to work. If you watch video of the Ukraine or Syria, it mostly seems to be artillery bombardments, followed by an armored assault with infantry support, as you would expect from countries dominated by Soviet military doctrine.

        The US, by contrast, is more of an air and sea power, with a relatively low level of useful military training in the general population.

        We don’t have vast parking lots full of tanks, APCs, and tube artillery sitting outside every city. Even if the Federal government faded away and left an airbase full of fighters sitting there, what exactly is the Bugtussle County Constitutional Freedom Militia going to do with an F16? Lacking trained personnel and a nationwide supply chain, probably not much. The same thing times a million for an aircraft carrier. A civilian might be able to figure out how to drive a tank, but how many tanks even are there in the US? There are heavy concentrations of them at certain military bases, but I believe there are relatively few nationwide.

        What military technology does the US have in abundance?

        -Trucks, and a good road network. I would expect the African style technical truck to be used a lot.

        -Long range capable rifles, and wide open spaces in the cities and much of the country. I would expect sniping to be more of a factor than in other countries.

        -A relatively high technology and manufacturing base. Armed drones seem to be increasingly important in Ukraine and Syria, and I would expect them to be used here as well. Furthermore, homemade mortars and artillery seem to be much used in Syria, and I imagine we can make them here too.

        -Relatively wide availability of night vision technology.

        -A hell of a lot of semiautomatic mag fed rifles.

        Tactically speaking, it seems like US military thinking is dominated by firepower and CQB. The dominant infantry tactic seems to be “wander around til somebody shoots at us, call in an airstrike, and then do a SWAT style building clear.” Thus, with airpower mostly out of the equation, even the relatively few trained infantrymen in the US general population are going to have lost their favorite tactic.

        There is also the 3-gun/video game influence, as seen in the recent unpleasantness on Instagram. The US is essentially a nation of gunfighters and snipers, rather than a nation of soldiers.

        So what kind of boogaloo does this all add up to? I am tempted to say it will be a bunch of methed up Fortnite players driving around in raised pickups ethnically cleansing rival neighborhoods and getting fratricided by their own snipers, while the whole thing is live-streamed from helmet cams and the drone overhead. A gigantic shitshow, in other words. But there are probably more useful and thoughtful answers to be had.

        A more sober answer might be that it will be an infantryman’s war, dominated by mobility and reconnaissance rather than firepower. If that is the case, superior infantry tactics are going to be of high importance.

        What do y’all think? Once again, this is just my analysis based on very sketchy and imperfect knowledge of the facts.

      • #115615

          I think it will depend upon the environment.

          Inner-city will be based off gang warfare. In this environment, colors/culture will be dominant. For example, while one could say blacks, whites, and Hispanics, there will be subdivisions. Examples are listed here (Ft Worth telegram – ). Those who are not familiar with gangs might say there are only a dozen or less, though the article states over 4600 gangs identified in Texas. There will be enclaves (gated communities) that will hire their own private police (already happening within the Houston city limits since 2010). The middle class will suffer the most (the poor already do, and the super-rich have their paid minions) and more-so since they’ve been removed from the life-death on the farm.

          Then the ferocity will have to be dealt with. Think of the stories of MS-13 (even the fact I’m using them as an example). Think of the teenagers in MD, here and here. The time to figure out how you’re going to handle when confronted or having to deal with is now, not when there’s a young El Salvadoran teen-aged girl with a small kid with her in front of you. These are the decisions you’ll be faced with. Better to have thought them out ahead of time (I’m NOT telling you which way to go, that is for you and yours to discuss).

        • #115619

            Sorry, forgot to tie it in to Dave’s post. Whose military?? Many of the ones in TX have been in the military, not necessarily the US. Also remember that the shooter who killed 5 police officers in 7/2016 had been in the US military.

          • #115629

              Great post! Very thought provoking. One of the things I constantly hear is the right talking about how leftists dont like guns so they will be pushovers. I think if the current political paradigm goes kinetic the left will have a solid core of competent fighters and saboteurs as well sufficient logistics. They have been pretty well organized so far. Kurt Schlicter wrote a series of fictional books describing what a left vs right civil war might look like and it is a pretty interesting and entertaining read.

            • #115670

                dave37 I usually run like hell from CWII guessing game threads but yours I believe is exceptional. My WAG is that conflicts going forward are going to be decided with the rifle.

                Note even if this upsets some people we are going to have to stow the Boomercon tropes, Democratic voters love guns, people in the Blue cities are not being killed by hugs.

              • #115679

                  Dave, you win the forum. This is an excellent post.

                  I am about to post up an IG thing that has been going on. About the whole flat range theatrics thing.

                  But second thoughts, why don’t we just keep the SUT we teach at MVT to the excellent types who actually come to class? Instead of encouraging everyone to do SUT rather than focus on flat range theatrical gunfighting?

                  Nobody knows SUT any more. Other than some exceptions in the US military, and civilians who have trained properly in it.

                • #115680
                  Robert Henry

                    So what kind of boogaloo does this all add up to? I am tempted to say it will be a bunch of methed up Fortnite players driving around in raised pickups ethnically cleansing rival neighborhoods and getting fratricided by their own snipers, while the whole thing is live-streamed from helmet cams and the drone overhead. A gigantic shitshow, in other words. But there are probably more useful and thoughtful answers to be had.

                    Nailed it!! +1

                    Individual vendettas. That will be step 1 for most people when it starts up. People settling scores. Some will be real issues, others will be retarded stuff. Never underestimate people’s need for revenge for even the slightest “wrong” felt.

                    If these vendettas fit in with a specific “group” or forming group’s general ideas, then people will gravitate towards that group. For example, their will be a lot of whites killed by blacks here in the deep south.

                    The country will be eventually partitioned into several new “nations” just as Yugoslavia was.


                    Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                    Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                  • #115686

                      @dave37 I think you hit it! A lot to take in and think on…..

                    • #115700

                        And for those who think our military won’t fire on citizens or prior military, I leave this link


                      • #115732
                        Jim Tom

                          Damn! That was a good read.

                          I wonder what the challenge coin looks like for winning the forum.

                          • #115774

                              I wonder what the challenge coin looks like for winning the forum.

                              When you win the forum, you get the first MVT rebel flag patch…

                          • #115733

                              My WAG on the American mil machine, the day the PX stops stocking the Twinkies for the Dependapotomuses it will probably begin its breakup.

                            • #115699

                                This is what I mean by inner-city

                                Bernie Sanders: Parts of Baltimore Like a Third World Country; So Bad That North Koreans Live Longer


                                Austin, Texas Joins California Cities In Accelerated 3rd World Economic Collapse, Homelessness & Mass Poverty

                                So what does this have to do with armed conflict???

                                1. What do you do with 60K homeless (LA, as noted above)?
                                2. What do you do with 1 million illegals (LA, as noted above)??
                                3. What do you do when the DA publicly states he wont charge anyone who steals < $750 (Dallas, as noted in 4th link)??

                                The above questions are why the coming Troubles (not to take anything away from Max’s experiences) will be troubling………and why (SMHO), our next CW will look more like the French Revolution (1789-1799) and the Bolshevik Revolution (1917) in many areas (inner-city and urban, and lesser degree suburban) with a smattering of Bosnia thrown in (suburban and much lesser, rural) – again, strictly my opinion.

                                Your area will dictate what, why, who, and how things play out.

                              • #115764
                                Robert Henry

                                  “One day, tomorrow, five years, 15 years or 30 years from now, we are going to take ten to fifteen million Mexicans and they are going to have one idea- cross the border. Go into Dallas, go into El Paso, go into Houston. And each one of them will have the idea in their head of killing ten Americans.”

                                  Tomas Borge, Nicaraguan Interior Minister, 1985


                                  Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                  Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                • #116087

                                    I’ve been trying to type a response for three days now but every time I get somewhere the MVT drops down on me, I accidentally click it, and all my progress is gone when I click “Back”.

                                    I’ve probably lost at least three hours of time because of this.

                                  • #116095

                                      (I have to type this in LibreOffice because every time I accidentally click on the MVT scroll it wipes everything even after I click back. This is attempt five. Or six, I’ve lost count.)

                                      Just my thoughts based on my own experience in Big Igloo Warfare, take it or leave it. I’m considered the “left” of this forum so someone will probably take offense at something.

                                      With all this talk about red flags and TAPS I’m feeling a bit more cautious about what I say online. Everything I’m saying here is meant to be reactive, not proactive, in response to a collapse of state authority.

                                      The only recent conflict I can think of where insurgents successfully captured and fielded aircraft is Libya, most of the time the aircraft and airfields are an obvious target to bomb when the regime loses control on the ground, beyond the obvious logistical difficulties they pose. Insurgents can gain some parity in surveillance and close air support through the use of drones, I would consider it mandatory for a rebel group in the 21st century to utilize them.

                                      Likewise tanks and artillery are also hard to conceal from aircraft and expensive to maintain. Trucks are both cheaper, easier to procure, and well-suited to the flying column tactics employed by insurgent armies, One small change I’d expect is quads and ATVs supplanting full-size pickups in densely forested and rough environments. The tanks and artillery become useful once the guerrillas are powerful enough to form a more conventional force and push towards the cities.

                                      Without a way to counter regime aircraft it’s incredibly difficult for guerrillas to advance outside the safety of existing redoubts or prevent airstrikes from destroying heavy equipment, what’s why it’s such a big deal when sponsor states give their proxies MANPADs. US Stingers turned the tide of the Soviet-Afghan War, the boogihideen of the future will likely need MANPADs eventually.

                                      The US has a strong gunsmithing subculture that doesn’t exist overseas, alongside CNC and 3D printers that I could only dream about overseas. There are already easily-downloadable files for AR recievers, 1911 frames, magazines, and accessories, and I’d expect to see a lot of homemade guns and accessories in the The Great American Big Luau. ISIS lacked that advanced tooling but still utilized injection-molded plastics and assembly-line produced circuit boards to make IEDs and drone grenades, their rocket launchers were effective enough that Haasd al-Shaabi have begun manufacturing them themselves. Our forces used crudely-made bolt-action guns from DshK barrels, meanwhile there’s a whole cottage industry for homemade .50 rifles in the US. I would expect more improvised and homemade weapons in an American conflict than others.

                                      Even our existing selection of firearms, scopes, sights, stocks, mounts, whatever are taken for granted here, I had to take it easy on gun jargon for my Brit mil team mates because the only experience they had with guns was the standard issue British Army kit.

                                      One good thing about so many civvie guns is that communities don’t immediately have to fall to extremists or the regime, communities have the opportunity to form community defense councils to protect their homes. Any actual FREEFOR that pops up has the opportunity to fight long enough to gain legitimacy as a fighting force and develop a proper political and ideological platform. In other circumstances, being forced to immediately appeal to outside powers to sponsor them would reinforce the appearance of being little more than foreign puppets, which is always an accusation leveled against insurgents.

                                      Even if the US military doesn’t train non-infantry much in SUT, they still get some kind of foundation, whereas most guys in places like Iraq or Syria get none at all if they aren’t explicitly infantry, and even then it’s usually jumping through fiery hoops and duckwalking and dumb shit. Libya, Syria, and Ukraine are all countries that hadn’t seen a real war in decades so there was a lack of experienced cadres on the regime or opposition side; Islamists did so well because they had large numbers of fighters with real combat experience from Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, etc. There is a large number of US combat veterans from our decades of wars that have the real-world experience to guide non-priors over that scary hilltop from non-combatant to battle-hardened fighter.

                                      Where I can see prior-service US guerrillas struggling is establishing networks for logistics and medical treatment, since treating and feeding guerrillas in a non-permissive environment is drastically different than simply flying everything around.

                                      Just my guess, I would expect any initial fighting to see a high casualty rate for insurgents because of poor tactics, TC3, and security practice (Take out your damn SIM card!), followed by a more discreet campaign by those who already knew how to fight properly or learned the hard way.

                                      Either concurrent with a conflict or separately I expect a “culture shift” from the openness of groups like Threepers and Oathkeepers to clandestine activity like the IRA, Atomwaffen, or Malhama Tactical, especially as currently acceptable gun ownership becomes more and more stigmatized and illegalized through AWBs, magazine bans, etc. and existing gun owners become more radicalized as a result.

                                      A particularly cold and calculated insurgent group might avoid conducting too many operations upon the outbreak to conserve strength and assert power and authority when competing groups are depleted in strength, there is often a civil war inside the civil war as different parties jockey for power. Many FSA units resented the YPG for not directly confronting the regime at the outbreak of the civil war in Syria, but only focusing on securing Kurdish areas and fighting the regime where they resisted.

                                      I wouldn’t expect the conflict to be centered around race, I’d expect political affiliation to be front and center with race as a secondary factor. There would be parties among the right and the left that would seek to push a racial dimension to the conflict, from the left to pressure minorities into loyal racial blocs, from the right to advance white nationalist aims, any FREEFOR would have to quickly defeat any WN groups in a position to discredit FREEFOR through religious or ethnic attacks.

                                      As far as urban gangs go, they make too much money from well-off white drug users to embrace racial extermination as policy, even gangs that are racially-oriented seek to support affiliated gangs of differing races. Here in Baltimore, Dead Man Inc. was pushed by the Black Guerrilla Family to gain traction in working-class white communities, the main reason it failed is because DMI guys were usually failed drug dealers and dope fiends and were easy pickings for RICO charges. Business comes first. Generally gangs only embrace ethnic cleansing when encouraged to do so by the state (see Serbia, Rwanda), “deplorables” aren’t an ethnicity and the folks giving orders on both ends will still mostly be white.

                                      Honestly I’m more concerned about the possibility of right-wing militiamen targeting Latinos, Muslims, or trans folks than, the thought of Crips coming to exterminate my neighborhood, even during the Freddie Gray riots the rioters were staying inside their own neighborhoods, though of course I had my rifle ready at home just in case.

                                      All that being said, this all assumes there are no wholesale defections from the US military and that all units remain loyal to the regime. Entire units defecting to the opposition with their equipment intact could drastically alter the calculus beyond my ability to guesstimate second- and third-order effects, as would any political push from individual US states to seek more autonomy from the federal government or neutrality in the conflict.

                                    • #116117

                                        Blacks or african-American or any other dopey term is used already use violence for political means, in short they meaning blacks will rule over a pile of shit but they will rule.

                                        Case in point Chicago all the phony handwringing white lefties and conservative autistic arm flappers never even come close to being right, hell they never even do the smart decent thing and ask the average black man or woman in those areas what the real deal is.

                                        Today this means a lot, if you are pulled in for a firearm law violation in Cook county you will get a felony charge if a good “Democratic” voter is charged by the cops the charges will most likely be dropped. Yeah some ideological bullshit gum flapping aside this comes down to who, whom as usual.

                                      • #116123
                                        Robert Henry

                                          Honestly I’m more concerned about the possibility of right-wing militiamen targeting Latinos, Muslims, or trans folks than, the thought of Crips coming to exterminate my neighborhood, even during the Freddie Gray riots the rioters were staying inside their own neighborhoods, though of course I had my rifle ready at home just in case.

                                          ROTFLMAO!! Dude you really need to get out more! My hermanos from Ecuador (who have been called “Nazis” before because of their political beliefs (conservatism) by people that didn’t know they were from South America) who have been “right-wing” their whole lives will have a good laugh at that one!

                                          It’s interesting, after the American Revolution, you never really heard of any large scale “purges.” No American gulags were set up where previous freedom fighters were held, tortured or killed. It’s just the case with socialist/communist types that do that. Meanwhile just like the spoiled kid that causes trouble, they like to be the first one to say someone else causes trouble in order to get the spotlight off of them.

                                          They eat their young, that’s important for you to remember RR. The left looks at guys like you as cannon fodder and after the fact they will be done with trouble makers and clean them out, in the same manner the Boleshiviks did, in the same manner the other famous socialists (Nazis) did with the SA. Their is no future in fighting for the left. All those whiny losers in that redneck commie video, if they make it till the end, they will be cast aside also. They eat their young and it will NOT be any different this time.


                                          Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                          Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                        • #116131

                                            Just my thoughts

                                            I think you make some good points, and some I disagree with. I’m not going to bash you though. The short list:

                                            1)Air: most modern insurgencies resistances/rebellions have been from populations with virtually no experience with piloting/aircraft. While I would agree that air support (short of conventional involvement) is not likely to be a decisive factor, using air for rapid movement or insertion/exfil of high skilled combatants could definitely be a thing.

                                            2) Tanks break down, but towable artillery really isn’t bad. Keeping them feed though could be problematic. using them effectively? Maybe. From what I understand, all the ballistic are done with pretty sophisticated software, that irregulars likely wouldn’t have. They could probably figure it out with eough breathing room though. Artillery can be devastating (Srebrinca anyone?) (shake and bake?)

                                            3) You’re absolutely correct that MANPADS have a decisive effect against airpower. BUUUT the examples you reference are all conventional vs guerillas. Who knows what actually might unfold. I think “persistent civil unrest”, where there are conventional government “peacekeeping” forces, and multiple groups fighting each other (like Iraq) is pretty conceivable, if anything happens at all (read: most Americans are fucking weak).

                                            3) As far as service and support, it will take time (with an awful lot of backstabbing/informing) to develop a functioning underground. This is the real threat. Imagine a 10x increase to some of the 3 letter agencies in response to persistent civil unrest (sheep screaming “do something!”) to get them more in line with Chinese MSS or Russian FSB manpower. Combine that with current SIGINT/HUMINT/cyber and red flag BS, and it could lead to some real ruthlessness. Historically, the only hope there is for the irregular forces to win “the narrative”

                                            4) Clandestine vs Overt: there are almost always “peaceful” wings, operating politically, along with “operational” wings, within the same organization/cause. There are fundamentally different people in each group. Most people are boisterous for a cause but have no intention of going “operational”, they will be used either in public protests or the underground/auxiliary.

                                            5) I have to agree with you that alliances would be forged primarily through political affiliations than racial. Are there some racist POS’s out there? For sure, but I think that’s a sideshow. I disagree with you that blacks or latinos will be targeted by whites anymore than whites would be targeted by others, statistically speaking.

                                            6) Foreign aid/intervention: historically, almost all successful rebellions/resistances had foreign aid, but by no means does it guarantee success.

                                            I think my main point here is this: no one has any clue what may/will happen, there are far too many factors, and those factors can change rapidly.

                                          • #116179

                                              “African-American” comes off as formal, “black folks” and “white folks” is usually more polite than “the whites” and “the blacks”, just in my experience growing up in a minority-majority city. :good:

                                              Without any Fred Hamptons rising up I don’t see a drastic political change from the already-existing lawlessness in the most blighted urban areas, and black neighborhoods that aren’t that bad would probably be regime areas.

                                              Here it’s more sketch to drive around with a firearm to go to the range than to drive around with drugs in your car, I don’t openly tell people I own an AR because it’s liable to get me ostracized. Even as a libertarian I’m pretty right-wing compared to the rest of the city because I’m anti-statist and pro-gun and my gentrified area is a sea of college-educated liberals. I don’t really have the means to travel much, I haven’t been on a proper vacation in like five years, so I may be working off of limited social experience. </End rant>

                                              I am well-acquainted with the history of authoritarian socialist regimes turning on anarchist, social democrat, etc. supporters. If you want to out a tankie and rustle some anarchist jimmies, just mention Kronstadt.


                                              I didn’t really take into account rotary aircraft (I think I did during my first attempt at hacking out my points), they’d be much easier to conceal and deploy than fixed-wing aircraft. I know there are even a few real-world militia stateside that have trained in airmobile tactics. It also depends on which groups the regime is prioritizing operations against, that could make the airspace more permissive for those they’re not targeting, I should have taken that into account.

                                              I am kind of leaning towards a right-wing insurgency vs. left-wing authoritarian state scenario because I see the right losing any political leverage over the next two to three decades and radicalizing as the left uses their unchecked power to push more and more extreme proposals onto the population. If I saw any pressure valves from our current political climate I might drift towards other scenarios.

                                              Probably the best candidates for a complete collapse of state power leading to insecurity would be an economic collapse or targeted grid attacks from a hostile power (US vs. China in the South China Sea?) but our government has been resilient in past episodes.

                                              My guess would be that an overt wing of any resistance movement would have trouble succeeding due to the nature of our two-party system, most other democracies run a parliamentary system where it’s not inconceivable for a disenfranchized minority to create a legal party and gain a few seats (Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland, HDP in Turkey, etc.), but there’s no opportunity for that here (see the “success” of the Libertarian and Green parties here). With the GOP losing influence and no other chance for legal representation that’s another driver towards right-wing radicalization.

                                              JohnnyMac might think I’m a bit paranoid over right-wing attacks against minorities but all it takes is a few attacks in quick succession by WNs at the outbreak of hostilities for the regime to frame the narrative as the regime you know vs. the Nazis who want to kill you. Assad focused his attention on moderate rebels and let ISIS and al-Nusra be so that he could frame the war as a choice between him and jihadism, of course the jihadis were happy to go along with it as they established their emirates and caliphates. At the beginning of the 2011 revolution there were Christian, Druze, and Alawites defecting to the opposition, by the end Sunni Islamists conquered or absorbed all the remaining FSA so that the remainder are all jihadists. Maybe I’m being a bit paranoid because of my own background (here and abroad) but I see that as the biggest political threat to any conservative/libertarian FREEFOR.

                                              The reason I mention foreign support so frequently is because even if most insurgencies fail, those that do succeed almost always do so with foreign assistance. Remember the Continental Army was a proxy of France by the end of our revolution.

                                            • #116182

                                                I should have kept it simple my bad. I didn’t want to come off as anti-Black but in Chicago if you are being honest the black political machine wants its kind and they know how to get it and they got it. Other than that I agree with you about the divisions in society.

                                              • #116314

                                                  I should have kept it simple my bad. I didn’t want to come off as anti-Black but in Chicago if you are being honest the black political machine wants its kind and they know how to get it and they got it. Other than that I agree with you about the divisions in society.

                                                  I understand the frustration, I live dead-center in Baltimore City, but it’s not simply the “black political machine” but the broader Democratic machine, here in MD Dems outnumber Republicans two to one, they love to throw their weight around and deny responsibility when something goes wrong. Most black folks I know are rather open-minded, after the election results came in many were willing to give Trump a chance before they passed judgement unlike white liberals who immediately took to the streets. They just don’t see any politicians interested in their problems outside the Democratic Party and even support for Democrats is usually somewhat apathetic. (Our last three mayors here resigned in disgrace.) Conservatives gave up on black voters decades ago and there hasn’t been much of a push to spread the liberty movement to urban areas outside of localized efforts by guys like Maj Toure.

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