Tacticool "Weapons Manipulations" will get you killed

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    • #72402
      Buddy
      Participant

        When was the last time you practiced your weapons manipulation skills? I will immediately say that as weapons manipulations are important, it seems like today, most classes focus heavily on it. They usually leave out all that other important stuff which will keep you alive. I understand that you need to have a good skillset on handling a weapon, just like useing a power tool. However, knowing how to cut a straight line with a saw doesn’t mean that you can build a cabinet.

        Let’s talk about the “speed reload and tactical reload” I see all these instructors teaching students a ‘proper technique’ for reloading your rifle. Each instructor will have a slightly different way of doing it, however, they all look robotic and rigid in nature. What I find hilarious is that they are all teaching this from the STANDING POSITION.

        Last time I checked, if you are not behind cover or minimizing your signature, you WILL catch a chunk of lead. What I suggest is that the next time you are out at the range brushing up on some weapons manipulation skills, you train these skills in a realistic setting. When was the last time you performed a reload drill in the prone, or when was the last time you cleared a double feed prone?

        As person who has a background in Biomechanics, I can tell you that the majority of the skills taught at these classes do not transfer when you change your body’s position to gravity and the starting position of the joints. If these skills are designed to train muscle memory, why in the world are they only focusing on the one position which will inherently get you killed?

      • #72403
        D Close
        Moderator

          This also touches on gear setup. You mention firing position. One thing I harp on with my future team mates is practicing dry, using dummy rounds for malfunction clearing, mag changes prone and fitness. A friend of mine suggested I use a mag pouch inverted on the rear of my PC to facilitate doing a mag change while prone. It works great, unless you forget it’s there. I found myself charging a target with my sidearm, while full mag for my main weapon stayed nicely in said pouch. Dumbass. More practice. Every day we need to be better than yesterday.

        • #72404
          Corvette
          Participant

            Buddy,

            Great point!
            And thats a big part of the beef I have with the EAG , Magpul “Tactical” ect classes being taught by the “tier 1” celebrities.

            Totally misguided training.
            Places like MVT ( or Mason Dixon Tactical etc) are much different and IMO doing it right.

            That’s why after months of searching and increasing anger at the misdirected training when watching youtube vids etc I came to train with Max and immdetaly felt I finally found home.

            Chers,
            F

            PS: I couldnt even finish my free Magpul “Art of the carbine” CD’s
            They were too unwatchable since I constantly had to struggle to stifle my anger at trainers misleading the shooting public like that.
            PS: Thi dysfunctional training effects everything. Even results in bad gear configurations fielded as the “right stuff”

          • #72405
            Former Sapper
            Participant

              What I don’t get especially from Chris Costa is this “drive your gun” thing where you have your forearm fully extended towards the end of the weapon. It just doesn’t make any sense to me like in this video:

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LsVWYS0mp4

            • #72406
              Buddy
              Participant

                Here is a great video making fun of exactly what we are talking about.

              • #72407
                Corvette
                Participant
                    Sapper,

                    I tried that grip the other day at the square rnage with a practioner of it, who operates at thecarbine instrcutor level.
                    (we were just haning out though and he is surpisingly to me anti-tacticool and cant udnerstand the garbage that is being taught by thiose form his comminity. so not all teals or SF guys want to make money off the public with tacticool training.

                    The below are my thoughts not his (we didnt discuss this grip)
                    It seems to be only useful for specific range engagements where you push the gun around like a hose.

                    The range i think it might work ok is one that just too far to hip shoot like clearing a small room, so you need (and have) more control than that… but it wont work at what I wonsider nornal infantry distances like 80 or 100m, because you lack finer motor control for proper aiming at those distances.

                    It looks very cool so it makes sense the tactool guys are propagating it, but it onyl makes sense to me for a specific engagement distance.

                    So again its an exmaple that will not help the average consumer of carbine training.

                    He barely is competent at the basic grip why burden him with esoteric stuff he may never use?

                    I think playing around with different grips for very specific situations makes sense only for thoser who have the training time/ammo to train everyday.
                    Tier 1 guys in others words. (sigh)

                    When this gets trained to civlian 1st defenders they will try to use it at incorrect ranges, and promptly ingrain a bad habit.

                • #72408
                  John Langdon
                  Participant

                    I saw a video of Travis Haley the other day with Rob Pincus talking about handgun grips. He seems to be distancing himself from his previous teachings about grip angles and such.

                  • #72409
                    Corvette
                    Participant

                      Buddy,

                      haha awesome vid!

                      Looks like something max velocity could have made.

                    • #72410
                      Eric
                      Participant

                        I look at some of this shit…

                        and have to shake my head. “Driving” your rifle has got to be one of the stupidest things ever. I am sure it is fine on a square range or in 3 gun contests when no one is shooting back at you, but can you Imagine shooting around cover with your elbow sticking out like that? I guess if you don’t mind having your arm shot off, it is a fine technique.

                      • #72411
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          I like and use the far extended hand guard grip. I have my NSR adjustable polymer inserts set so only three fingers will fit “UNDER” the hand guard. This compels the index finger to point straight and aligned down the barrel. This is a standard skeet and upland bird shooting method. I causes the forward index finger to point at the target. It reduces “OVER” swing when moving from one target to the next. Like in skeet shooting you often have birds coming from hard left and hard right houses at the same time.

                          My targets are empty expired (Not refillable) five gallon propane bottles. It does not take long before one can remove all sights and optics, then just use the left index finger to point at the target.

                          The further out the hand/finger is the more it is like someone saying I don’t see what your looking at. In response you just naturally fully extend your index finger and point at it.

                          The main part of a five gallon propane bottle is 12″ by 12″ with very little practice you can hit the bottle out to 70 yards nearly 100%.

                          I generally carry my AR’s with no sights or optics on my daily hikes. I keep a scope in my E&E pack should I see a wolf at longer ranges. Remember I have zero military training. It works for me but YMMV.

                        • #72412
                          Thomas
                          Participant

                            The grip demonstrated is the “C” grip. It can be useful when a shooter needs to brace against a wall, etc to gain stability for an aimed shot at longer ranges. Like most applications, it can have a valid use. It is generally not a grip that can be sustained without causing muscle fatigue and reducing shooting efficacy.

                            I was troubled by the Costa video because of his continued use of concealment for cover. Card board boxes and overturned metal desks are not good cover. He just trained inexperienced shooters to move and shoot while mostly upright.

                            Sad, really.

                          • #72413
                            DiznNC
                            Participant

                              Hoo boy, we’re going after all the sacred cows now. First off this “C” grip probably has it’s place, just not with me. I have talked to folks that do this shit for a living and they say it controls the gun much better, for follow up shots or to track multiple targets. But the caveat here is this is straight up urban assault shit, that is optimized for high speed, stand up fighting. Also popular with the competition crowd, where it works great on the square range. So depending on your T,T,&P’s, if you don’t plan on standing up in plain sight and engaging multiple targets, as a general rule, then it’s not a viable technique. However, once you have fire superiority, and are ready to launch the final assault through the objective, then maybe this technique might work. But as a general rule, when doing fire and maneuver to close with the enemy (or break contact as the case may be), I would emphasize kneeling and prone positions, which are more conducive to a traditional support hand beneath the rifle hold. For those of you that didn’t get BRM in the service, see Paul Howe’s rifle DVD for excellent illustrations of the prone and kneeling positions. The support hand holds the rifle beneath the handguard or rail, so the elbow aligns with the body for a more stable shooting platform. This becomes a standard shooting stance, whether off-hand, kneeling, or prone. It just makes sense to me, to shoot with the same grip regardless of position.

                              Other stuff. Well, the speed vs admin reloads. As others have said, when kneeling or prone, it’s a totally new ball game. The speed reload, or let’s say when you’re under fire, is about getting the gun back up fast, but the difference from the square range is that you’re probably down behind cover, proned out if possible, but at least kneeling, and you’re probably covering your buddy’s movement. The question is, do you reload with retention, or just dump the mag. If at all possible, I would try and stuff it behind my chest rig, or in your jacket. If not, drop it and reload. Retrieve if you can later. There is no perfect solution here. If you dump a mag on the deck, you might be one short later when you need it. Or, there may be all sorts of mags laying around a battlefield.

                              Admin reload, definitely with retention. I am not big fan of these dual-mag manipulation drills either. High n low, “L” shape, whatever. If they work for you, fine, but for me, trying to manipulate two mags at once, under stress, is just a non-starter. I like to remove and stow old, then grab new mag and insert. Just don’t see the big difference in time savings or whatever.

                              Malfunction drills. I like to keep this non-diagnostic if at all possible. What works on the range in daylight may not necessarily work in the bush. Tap, rack, bang, or if that don’t fix it, you’re hard down. So onto the strip the mag out and clear out the chamber/upper, if you have the time and cover. Or switch to pistol if warranted. Although shit can happen, and it’s good to cover all the bases, I think this is one area that has been over-emphasized, along with pistol transitions.

                              Speaking of pistol transition drills. Besides being over-emphasized, it leads you to rig your rifle sling to optimize transitioning to pistol, rather than the best way to carry your rifle the other 99% of the time. I have started to go back “old school” and rig my sling over my dominate shoulder again. For the majority of your time spent patrolling in the bush, having it rigged dominate or strong side just makes more sense. And it’s a lot easier to change mags.

                              I think this is good, questioning the dogma of these guys teaching stylized fighting techniques, and finding what actually works for us. That is the key, training in the terrain, and for the situation you may find yourself in, not in a vacuum on a pretty range.

                              You know, the one thing that usually goes unsaid in all these classes is what exactly are the guys doing there in the first place. What exactly is your mission? They call these classes “Defensive Rifle”, or “Tactical Rifle”, or best yet “Fighting Rifle”. What exactly is the context in which you see yourself fighting with a rifle? Who is this instructor, and what exactly is he trying to teach you? Classic example, Magpul’s classes with Haley and Costa. They never address what exactly you would be doing with this here rifle, but it sure is flashy and a lot of fun to do. It seems we just gloss over this fact and pretend everyone is there to get up to speed before going overseas as a contractor or some such fantasy.

                              Because these techniques have no real frame of reference, you have no way of telling what is legitimate, or relevant. At the end of the day, what they are teaching is more relevant to the competition crowd than it is for reality based self-defense.

                              To sum up, everything we do needs to be run through the filter of how this will work for me, in my likely self-defense scenario. If standing 5m from a target and doing mag dumps into paper doesn’t seem to be relevant to anything, then shit-can it.

                            • #72414
                              Max
                              Keymaster

                                Because these techniques have no real frame of reference, you have no way of telling what is legitimate, or relevant. At the end of the day, what they are teaching is more relevant to the competition crowd than it is for reality based self-defense.

                                The whole post is solid gold, but this really nails it. I’m not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater, some of the stuff they teach is actually really useful in the proper context. But use your bullshit filter when you watch these videos or read the posts on the interwebz and think about how or if it would be useful in your context, not just because it looks cool and Operator As Fuck.

                              • #72415
                                Thomas
                                Participant

                                  The “c” grip really does nothing for me, either. I prefer the support hand under the rifle. This position is much more stable for me. It is also ingrained in me from years of shooting.

                                  Concur that Diz’s post is gold.

                                • #72416
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster

                                    Agree with DiznNC. Especially with respect to mag retention, which is rarely taught.

                                    You may find your mag in an urban environment after the engagement, but you’ll never find it when shooting and moving in the woods.

                                  • #72417
                                    JustARandomGuy
                                    Participant

                                      Awesome gun video= priceless!

                                      Now my 2 cents;

                                      On C-clamping- It’s a valid technique, as stated in the right circumstance, such as bracing against the side of something, but in all fairness that’s not really a “C-clamp”, imo- more like a “forearm brace”. The problem is, people just plain overdo it- there’s no need to run your hand completely over the top of the rifle. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t feel I can control my rifle any better with a full c-clamp than with my normal grip (I use a hybrid handstop/thumb-over grip).
                                      What I do find valid is simply that getting your arm out further does aid in controlling the rifle- I find it to be much more solid than some half-assed magwell grip, or even a traditional under-hand supporting grip when standing. Like Haley mentioned in the Pistol video- straight lines are strong, angles are weak.
                                      And against close-in targets, it’s just a further bonus in speed and smoothness of switching from target to target- no more wobbling or excess movement in the gun- just straight across to the next target.
                                      I hear the argument about it not being good a longer ranges, but I’m likely going to take a knee or prone out for that anyway, so of course I’m going to use a different grip….
                                      It’s just one of those things where one needs to experiment with it and find a happy medium, and simply ignore all the tacicoolers who have no peripheral vision to their left…. :P

                                      Speaking of pistol grip technique- the posted video is spot on.A thumb-forward/down, 2-hand high-backstrap grip (if you’re capable of getting two hands on the gun in a situation) such as demo’d at 00:57 and 4:00 or so is where it’s at.

                                      Reloads- there *is* a right and wrong way to do this, if you actually want it done quick and effectively, and it just so happens to be the “tacticool” way of doing it. Namely “beercanning” or “indexing” the magazines when drawing them from pouches that accommodate this, not 2-finger pinching the bottom while trying to fish them out of a pouch that’s to deep…
                                      Personally, I’m also a fan of the “hold the gun in front of your face and cant it to the side while reloading” method. As tacticool as it may seem, it does have merit- for one, it provides a very natural way to insert the magazine into the magwell firmly so you can be sure it seats, and since it’s right in front of your face, not only can you keep your head up with at least some awareness of what’s going on around you but, you can actually see what you’re doing with the gun. And yes, this does work in the prone position. :yes:
                                      Lowering the gun while holding it upright doesn’t provide as much leverage for seating the magazine, and forces you to look down.
                                      FWIW, I know of a fellow on another forum who is now in a wheelchair because he went head-down while trying to reload his rifle in a combat situation.

                                      Malfunction clearance- I think that in most cases throwing a “tap rack bang” drill at everything willy nilly is self defeating. Example- I have a double feed. I “TRB”, but now I’ve just made it worse by jamming another round in on top of it all…
                                      The way I see it, any malfunction drill should begin with “Look”- cant the rifle to the side, or tip your handgun slide up in front of you and see what’s going on- this way you can spend a whole 2 seconds actually knowing what malfunction you have, and then it can be cleared correctly *once*, and get back to shooting. Versus using a TRB on a double feed, now you’ve wasted more time than it took to see what was going on in the first place, and you get to run the clearance all over again.
                                      So, you can see this sort of thing gets super stylized to the point of ridiculousness with people flipping their rifles this way and that, but really it’s as simple as what I just described.


                                      “…They never address what exactly you would be doing with this here rifle, but it sure is flashy and a lot of fun to do….”

                                      Because they have to keep it PC for everybody….
                                      Just like the overuse of some of the phrases like “service the target” or “neutralize the threat” or whatever the we can say OTHER than “kill the bad guys before they kill you”.
                                      I would propose that in a roundabout way, a lot of the BS tacticool shooting techniques come from the normalcy bias (if you will) of the mainstream shooting world- where people train to defend themselves with their guns but don’t want to admit it.

                                    • #72418
                                      DiznNC
                                      Participant

                                        Good comments. My put on that is PC and normalcy bias muddy the water to the point of “WTF”? For me personally I want training that specifies exactly what the fuck we’re up to here: killing people that are trying to kill me, no dicking around about it. Dancing around this dilutes the message. By not clearly specifying what the mission is, you open the door for all sorts of T,T,&P’s that may not be applicable to your mission. I understand why they do it, but it’s still a problem.

                                        Here is the context I based a lot of my comments and views on. We are either out on night patrol, or set up in night ambush position. If you make contact, and then (insert here) happens, what to do. The reason I think trying to do a non-diagnostic malfunction clearance makes the most sense, is that in this context, the LOOK phase may/or may not give you anything. You either have to clear by the braille method (if you can), or chance a light (IR or red lens) to clear it. Or switch to an alternate weapon and clear it later.

                                        BTW this is a good argument for having a helmet-mounted IR or red lens light (if you’re running a helmet, not to mention NV). Not only for malfunction clears, but for getting that TQ on your buddy.

                                        So within the context of fighting in a small team, in the woods, at night, how do our T,T,&P’s stack up? To me, that’s the 64 dollar question. Whether you’re talking about weapon’s grip/shooting positions, mag changes, or malf drills. What technique is the most optimized for my terrain and situation, not stylized training, or sporting competitions. Or even actual combat situations not applicable to my sit.

                                        That is why I am training and plan on attending Max’s classes later this year to see what actually works the best out in the bush. I don’t want to base things on what this guy says, or that guy does, I want to base things on what actually WORKS. If what I, or anyone else is doing doesn’t work, then I/we need to admit it, change it, and move on. Easy say, hard do!

                                      • #72419
                                        Lloyd
                                        Participant

                                          Lots of good input here. I will throw in a couple of random thoughts:

                                          Grip, hand positioning on the forend, stance, etc is pretty situationally dependent. What works for a short-duration engagement (a la SWAT), or a few drills on a square range, or a 3-gun stage, is not going to work as well for carrying your rifle all day and engaging targets out to 300 yards, on rocky ground, in brush, forest, or whatever. Same could be said for reload techniques (speed loads, reloads with retention, etc), malfunction clearance drills, use of weapon mounted lights, etc… All of this stuff may have it’s place, but a good technique for quickly clearing one house with one bad guy in it is not necessarily going to carry over for rural ops against an “enemy force”.

                                          Which brings me to my next thought – Most of the training available to civvies is built off of SWAT type tactics, and/or is stuff that is specifically designed to work on a square range, because that is what trainers and students have access to, and that is their frame of reference. It eats up a lot less real estate to have a 50×50 yard square range, or even a small shoot house than it does to do fire team drills in a realistic rural setting.

                                        • #72420
                                          JustARandomGuy
                                          Participant

                                            ….Here is the context I based a lot of my comments and views on. We are either out on night patrol, or set up in night ambush position. If you make contact, and then (insert here) happens, what to do. The reason I think trying to do a non-diagnostic malfunction clearance makes the most sense, is that in this context, the LOOK phase may/or may not give you anything. You either have to clear by the braille method (if you can), or chance a light (IR or red lens) to clear it. Or switch to an alternate weapon and clear it later….

                                            I agree- what I should have said is, “if you are able to see your weapon” then look and apply the proper malfunction clearance drill.

                                          • #72421
                                            Thomas
                                            Participant

                                              Straight lines are strong…

                                              This is true in pistol shooting. Military pistol shooting evolved from fencing when men had true upper body strength. That form of shooting was not quick. Modern stances and grips have given us strong and quick shooting positions for the pistol. I have benefitted from this greatly. Pistol shooting in the discussed environment, however, is ho-hum.

                                              Rifle shooting relies on angles formed from short, straight lines. Forming these angles allows the shooter to brace against a solid object – the body – and use short straight lines that are significantly stronger than longer mostly straight lines like that used in the “C” grip. This is where short straight lines excel and allow the shooter to use the strength of bone rather than flexed muscle. Flexed muscle fatigues quickly and reduces the shooter’s control of the platform.

                                              The mag well grip is an abomination to the shooting gods and should be purged with blue flame in order to inflicted enough pain on the offender to ensure that the affront never occurs again. If Nuns taught rifle shooting class, they would break the hands of the offenders with steel rulers. The mag well grip decreases stability and control of the platform and slows target acquisition by causing the muzzle to move by the target and forcing a corresponding correction.

                                              I am a fan of the traditional forearm support method. This hold steadies the rifle and allows the muzzle to be moved onto the target in multiple target engagements. Other holds have their place. However, the shooter must understand the limitations of their technique and adapt as necessary.

                                            • #72422
                                              Thomas
                                              Participant

                                                I shifted my workspace up and into my immediate field of view. This was a change that was difficult to make for me. However, the benefits were immediate. I practice this with more regularity than most things that I do.

                                              • #72423
                                                DiznNC
                                                Participant

                                                  Excellent comments here. The focus is on discovering what works, for us, regardless of where/when it came from. This is such a refreshing change. And I appreciate all you guys contributing knowledge here. There is valid technique from the square range tacti-cool crowd, there is valid techniques from BRM, and there is valid technique from previous warriors in our AO. The trick is to get out and train and see what’s what. The AAR’s here can be invaluable as guys share with us what actually worked for them.

                                                • #72424
                                                  Corvette
                                                  Participant

                                                    Diz comments hit it out of the park!
                                                    I am putting them in my copy/paste toolbox for suture use ;-)

                                                  • #72425
                                                    Corvette
                                                    Participant

                                                      For a former military officer with no real military training (us doctors never got to have much fun!), I have watched a few videos on the web to pick up some “tips”. I even tried some of the tacticool crap at the range, but it made no sense and didn’t feel right. I DO understand physical forces and biomechanics, so I thought ‘to heck with that stuff.’ Then I went to Maxland.

                                                      First observation: shooting prone in the snow is NOT suited for that silly crap I have seen online!

                                                      Second observation: snow is COLD, but it is soft. Not so bad to dive into while going prone.

                                                      Third observation: I shoot best with my left hand close in. IN FACT, more often than not I found myself grabbing the front of the magwell when prone in WV. Guess what? I discovered I had good control! Granted, this was in RTR drills where speed has to be part of the equation. But I have done this at my local range (with no witnesses to talk about the crazy old guy who keeps going prone, firing, hitting the safety, MOVING, etc) and it works well. There is no doubt that I can shoot a tighter group prone with my support hand underneath and forward with a more “correct” technique, but when engaged in Fire & Movement I find myself frequently grabbing the magwell with good effect.

                                                      Shooting off-hand I am most stable with my left (support) elbow tucked in against my body, which precludes my grabbing the rifle way out the barrel. That creates far more movement as you are now forced to stabilize the elbow joint as well.

                                                      Good thing I never made it to the mall ninja classes. Fewer bad habits to get rid of!

                                                    • #72426
                                                      Thomas
                                                      Participant

                                                        ApoloDoc, the mag well grip is convenient but it is also unstable. That instability becomes more telling when range-to-target increases. Whether the elbow rests on the ground or against the body, the arm serves as a braced platform and the palm as a rest for the rifle forearm. Flexing the muscles of the arm and hand while grasping the mag well cause that tension to transfer to the rifle so that muscle twitch causes the rifle, and sight, to shake. Fatigue and the stress of combat compounds the problem.

                                                        May I suggest that you try moving your hand just in front of the mag well? I think you will find this to be a comfortable and successful shooting position that works in F&M.

                                                        Now that I have done good on the interwebz, I will go back to my mall ninja videos! People actually have to move in those classes…. ;-)

                                                      • #72427
                                                        Corvette
                                                        Participant

                                                          I see a huge problem with this discussion in that weapons manipulation is being confused with tactics. On the MVT the two are under completely separate tabs in the training section. This was not an accident.

                                                          The steps that cover speed reloads, malfunction clearance etc are the same standing or prone. Your body mechanics change with relation to your position relative to cover. Cover being the ground, a wall, your armor etc and your position being kneeling, standing, prone, urban prone etc.

                                                          For any combination there of the order of movement is the same as is the location of your gear. You just need to figure out how to get from point A to point B.

                                                          What happens is a lot is people don’t train. They watch a youtube video and think they’re good. Go to a class and default to their level of training which is zero. Then blame the technique they tried to use that wasn’t properly ingrained. Remember practice doesn’t make perfect. Practice makes permanent. If you cant do it on a flat range when the only danger is you might get your feelings hurt you’re not gonna be able to do it when lead is actively looking for a warm place inside you to live.

                                                          The square range teaches protocols for manipulating your weapon efficiently and effectively. Then it’s your place to practice those protocols under stress, in adverse conditions and make them second nature. I’ll give you all the bricks you could want but if you don’t build a house with them then the wolf is gonna eat your ass for lunch.

                                                          Max has brought me on to teach these techniques. I will go over tried and true methods of using your weapon and talk about the theory of cover, combat mindset and how humans react when someone is actively trying to kill them. I encourage everyone to attend the weapons manipulation classes that will be available soon. And I mean VERY VERY VERY soon.

                                                          Aaron

                                                        • #72428
                                                          Corvette
                                                          Participant

                                                            The steps that cover speed reloads, malfunction clearance etc are the same standing or prone. Your body mechanics change with relation to your position relative to cover. Cover being the ground, a wall, your armor etc and your position being kneeling, standing, prone, urban prone etc.

                                                            This is what everybody is talking about.

                                                            Teaching at Magpul, EAG etc seem to take place while standing.

                                                            but Mag changes, weapons grip etc etc need to be honed in the positions you are most likely to use and that must include the kneeling and the prone.

                                                            I also liked D Close point about gear setups.

                                                            Certain type of gear really only works well when standing.. those who train primarily standing will never properly shake out their gear.

                                                            For example there are a lot of rigs popular today that are open on top and the mag is help only by a flexible band..
                                                            Works fantastic for speedy reloads when standing on a square range but when crawling in muddy terrain plays havoc on the cleanliness of your mags and in so doing endangers your rifles reliability.

                                                            F.. :)

                                                            PS: For example I have never ever had a single malfunction with my LWRC M6 no matter what ammo I shoot (and most of the 6000-7000 rds thru it where cheap steelcase much of it Tula) until that Sunday last trng weekend when I had to “Make ready” in the prone from the support position….and being in the prone with the rifle poking thru a bush and so I am on my side in the prone exerting different forces and ergonomic angles than I am used to when charging, …instead of releasing freely I rode the CH just a tad.

                                                            And it was just enough to have an operator induced misfeed and delay my (and therefore the support elements) fire by approx 1.5 seconds.

                                                            That’s a training moment I will not get at magpul/Chris Costa etc but will get at MVT..:)

                                                          • #72429
                                                            Seth
                                                            Participant

                                                              Here’s my experience, so that way you can call b.s.:
                                                              3 seasons IPSC and IDPA
                                                              2012 USAMU Junior clinic
                                                              and MGM Three gun camp
                                                              I dryfire every day ( with kit, all positions I know, mostly prone)
                                                              I maintain regular practice sessions (fridays-sundays)

                                                              I think there is a noticable difference between tactics and manipulations. The manipulations fit into tactics, and tactics wouldn’t be that useful without them.

                                                              I see a little bashing of the C clamp. The c clamp is my grip for moving and shooting because it has stability but not too much. If you have too much stabilty in your grip you’ll notice the “bouncieness” much more. When I’m in a unsupported position (half-assed kneeling) I use a more traditional grip, palm under the gun (think Larry Vickers). When I dive into a supported and braced position, I get as MANY points-of-contacts between body parts and stable things. WHen in the prone I get fully squared, a magazine-monopod and my hands go out fairly far, roughly 4-7 inch mark. I noted somone said they grbbed their magwell when in the prone. I hate to rain on your parade, man, but you’re wrong. You lose a lot of stability. Greg Jordan and Joel Turner taught me this.

                                                              I can speed-relod my rifle in just over two seconds. My reloads-with-retention and tactical-reloads are under 3 1/2 sec.; from standing, sprinting, ricepatty prone, to the good ol’ prone. Here’s the deal: If I can reload faster, get hits faster, and protect my buddy better, I win. So instead of bashing things that are FUNDAMENTAL to ANY combat enviroment, practice them. Practice them within your “practical” SUT emviroments. I do.

                                                              And to address the gentlem e/a n that hate on a sqaured and extended arm grip, exsplain to me why everytime I see special operations soldiers (SF, CAG, SEALS, whoever) in pictures, they are using this grip.

                                                              I’ll include several pictures and videos, if you’d like. I think I have one of Mr. Jordan teaching me the prone position.

                                                            • #72430
                                                              Seth
                                                              Participant

                                                                My more traditional grip is still extended, just more traditional, as in the way my hand holds it.

                                                              • #72431
                                                                Corvette
                                                                Participant

                                                                  1) 3 seasons IPSC and IDPA
                                                                  2012 USAMU Junior clinic
                                                                  and MGM Three gun camp
                                                                  I dryfire every day ( with kit, all positions I know, mostly prone)
                                                                  I maintain regular practice sessions (fridays-sundays)

                                                                  2) I think there is a noticable difference between tactics and manipulations. The manipulations fit into tactics, and tactics wouldn’t be that useful without them.

                                                                  3) I see a little bashing of the C clamp. The c clamp is my grip for moving and shooting because it has stability but not too much. If you have too much stabilty in your grip you’ll notice the “bouncieness” much more.
                                                                  4) palm under the gun (think Larry Vickers). When I dive into a supported and braced position,

                                                                  5)I noted somone said they grbbed their magwell when in the prone. I hate to rain on your parade, man, but you’re wrong. You lose a lot of stability.

                                                                  6) If I can reload faster, get hits faster, and protect my buddy better, I win. So instead of bashing things that are FUNDAMENTAL to ANY combat enviroment, practice them. Practice them within your “practical” SUT emviroments. I do.

                                                                  7)And to address the gentlem e/a n that hate on a sqaured and extended arm grip, exsplain to me why everytime I see special operations soldiers (SF, CAG, SEALS, whoever) in pictures, they are using this grip.

                                                                  I’ll include several pictures and videos, if you’d like. I think I have one of Mr. Jordan teaching me the prone position.

                                                                  Seth ,

                                                                  1) thats awesome!! I shoot a more than most (800-1000 rds/mo lately not counting handgun) but not nearly as much as you.. I still want to have a dialogue though because that’s how I learn… ;-)

                                                                  2) Yes… I dont think anyone here implied otherwise. When folks say “tacticool weapons manipulatons” they dont mean anything w/ regards to “tactics” they mean what many of us perceive as “trendy newer style weapons manipulations that seem to work best when standing on flat easy ground” and perhaps not as well as in the prone in the mud.

                                                                  3) I tried it before. I admit I was always skeptical of it . It moderately worked for me when I used it the other day. But not sure how much of an edge in control it (for someone who doesnt practice it often) adds compared to coming from the steady state walking down the woods in the patrol ready hand the VFG and then staying on the VFG for your fast pair. Changing to C grip is an extra step that needs to be practiced, why fix whats not broken?
                                                                  Will it make me faster to train C Grip? And what will I have to train less by spending time on a new method?
                                                                  If the C grip was such a panacea would it not have been developed decades ago as magazine fed modern rifles have been around for a long time.

                                                                  4) yep use that a lot but only in the prone.

                                                                  5) Yep I am one of those guys who said they do that tho by no means the only one in this thread.. (note how many lowers now come out with a grip surface there).. I agree about the lack of stability. But when I am behind a log and my freefloat rests on a log or my VFG is a Monopod in the mud this works just fine… especially if I extended my stock in preparation of the prone (ambush or fire support shooting)..
                                                                  If my stock lenght is still the same because I just took cover real quick then I often stay on the VFG but sometimes I dont..it depends on the geometry of the ground, bushes etc. On a flat range that will never be a modifying factor.

                                                                  6) I dont understand this paragraph. I dont think anyone wants to practice less. I think the points folks made here is they want to train the correct stuff in the limited time they have and that gives them the most training value for the most common situations in their expected tactical environment. And not stuff that looks hot in a youtube vid.

                                                                  7) Here is where I definelty respectfully disagree and I can explain why:

                                                                  And this is not really just about grip…

                                                                  Just because the Delta Force, SEAL etc etc dudes do X and Y does in no way mean that this is relevant to us.

                                                                  Why? because those guys get to shoot more rounds in a month than I shoot in a year.

                                                                  An recent example to illustrate this point,..I went shooting with an SF guy from a team I work with sometimes.
                                                                  He was obviously better than me.. in some areas the difference was not as big as I had anticipated but in others the difference was extreme .. like on-the-fly move from right to left shoulder to slice the pie on a left indoor corner.

                                                                  This is not something I can execute with any kind of alacrity and accuracy, but he is smooth as butter. :unsure:

                                                                  I spoke to him about it and as I suspected its something that takes many many thousands of rounds to get good at and learning to apply it properly you need to run thru a number of shoothouses.

                                                                  So what does this mean for our discussion? …..I will NEVER have those opportunities. And neither will 90% of the rest of us.
                                                                  And that’s ok.

                                                                  So instead of training to get half ass at it and still not be able to do it properly a better use of my training time is to get faster on my strong side, because that’s where you do 99.99% of your shooting.

                                                                  Even I as a a frequent shooter I feel I need to keep my training simple down to a few select grips and drills that work fine in 95% of situations.
                                                                  Because thats as far as a non-full time infantry man (and even most 11B’s) can realistically go.

                                                                  Similar to a good amateur Chessplayer, you learn maybe 4-5 openings for when you play white and you own them. And those are the ones you will use. A master player will memorize dozens of openings down to many moves down the line so he doesnt even have to think in his response and can quickly move and then set switch the clock back to you..

                                                                  The amateur player even if he is gifted will NEVER be able to prepare ot that level and if he attempts he will misdirect his training..

                                                                  What do I do instead? On the lanes I can experiment around with a few basic grips and holds and I attempt to track how fast my response and how accurate my fire is.

                                                                  However I may be all out to lunch with the analysis I made and I hold no claim to owning the truth but I am curious what you think of the points raised now that this poster made an attempt to clarify what a number of us seem to think.

                                                                • #72432
                                                                  Seth
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    My counter-points;

                                                                    1)Thank you, and good job on the practicing. Between three guns I only shoot like 1800 rounds, mostly pistol.

                                                                    2 and 6) I was putting it out there for everyones benefit.

                                                                    3) I personally know a man who was in the LRRP teams during Vietnam. He holds his rifles like me. He uses different holds and grips for different things.

                                                                    7) Yes, and no. Those dudes use what works best. My experience says that my “tacticool” grip works the best for half sprinting. My experience also says when I’m kneeling or crouched or whatever I should use a Larry Vickers or more traditional hold.

                                                                    Here are some techniques for EVERYONES’ benefit;

                                                                    1) When holding you rifle, pull back (about 85%) with your firing hand’s arm and push forward (about 15%). The pulling back will make the rifle more like an extension of your arm. Thus, meaning the rifle will recoil straight back, so calling your shots is MUCH easier. The rifle will also be more stable.
                                                                    2) Maintain a positive and aggressive grip whenever possible.
                                                                    3) VFGs lower your grip. and also force a camming effect, this will make your recoil more obnoxious than necessary. Refer to numbers one and two.
                                                                    4) Don’t drive your damned gun, guide it.
                                                                    5) If you are a righty, when trasitioning targets, pull (right to left) and vice versa for lefties. Always go from bottom to top. This should be an unspoken rule, but whatever: do these when you can. I understand the situations where it might not be possible or feasible.
                                                                    6) Pull mags out of your magwell for shit’s sake.
                                                                    7) AS MANY contact points AS POSSIBLE on body parts or other STABLE things,
                                                                    8) Always take everything with a grain of salt and TRY IT OUT! Even this should be taken with a grain of salt.

                                                                    Those cover my opinoins good enough. I will keep a close eye on this for more counter points and such. Later.

                                                                  • #72433
                                                                    Seth
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      I thought about this for a little while more, here is my end statement on this. I am still open for dialogue on specific things.

                                                                      Let’s look at a basketball team. That basketball team is composed of individuals. The individuals join up and now are a team. When they join up they are practicing different plays. When those individuals go home, they practice on their personal skills. When they play together they are relying on their teammates. It is hard rely on a team mate who doesn’t practice. If that one teammate can know every play in and out and upside down, but can’t pass a ball, then he is next to worthless. Remember that you’re as strong as your weakest link.

                                                                      If you don’t know how to reload fast, shoot on the move, get in and out of position quick, or fix your gun if it goes down; you need to fix that. How can practice breaking contact or peeling if we can’t even reload to keep the rounds in our guns to protect our buddies and save our own lives, why are we practicing that.

                                                                      Basic marksmanship and fundamentals like Appleseed is the basis for all of this. This is our “crawl” stage. Our “walk” stage is being to shoot faster, reload fast, or fix our guns quickly. Our “run” stage is our team drills, SUT. My parents never told me to go crawl around with the other kids, they always said run. Why? ‘Cause Ya’ can’t run before ya’ crawl.

                                                                      Your crawl stage should be focused on being able to do what you’re going to do in your run stage. That means everything I said, and more, in all of your positions. Once you get the idea and are ready, go ahead and train with your team.

                                                                    • #72434
                                                                      Buddy
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        It’s amazing to see how far this thread has moved in topic from its original post, and now it seems like the topic of weapons manipulation training in proportion to team tactics deserves a tread of its own.
                                                                        I like Seth’s analogy of using a basketball team to practice team skills during team training and individual skills at home when you are unable to train with a partner. There is some good validity to that. However, it does seem that in todays “tactical shooting community”(I hate that word tactical because it is terribly away from its origin) they put 99% emphasis on the individual skills and none on the team skills, and then they go home and believe they can operate. Here comes the fallacy of this mindset. To conduct operations, the pulling the trigger part and feeding a gun is the EASY part. Many other things need to be learned and practiced over and over again until people stand a fighting chance. In no particular order, these are some other things people need to practicing regularly with a team. I literally just got home from 5hrs of training in the woods with 3 other teammates. Without further ado again in no particular order, 1) Weapons manipulation 2) Team Reactions to contact in various formations 3) Team communication 4) Hand signals 5) Navigation Day 6) Navigation Night 7) Team Formations 8) Setting ambushes 9) Tracking – Anti tracking, counter tracking 10) How to not be a dumbass on patrol (topic in its own) 11) Setting LPOP 12) Assaulting a target 13) Breaking Contact… and the list is endless…
                                                                        I will end with one important thing. Seth is focusing heavily on the weapons manip as a priority in this discussion (crawl, walk, run) as this IS a tried and proven method. As a majority WW1 and WW2 was one on tactics rather than having a bunch of Chris Costas running around on the battle field. The majority of servicemen during these wars had extremely basic training, but good team tactics and command tacticians lead the allies to victory. My .02c

                                                                      • #72435
                                                                        Seth
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          I understand that team tactics are definitely more important. With that said, you should be able to run your gun to a decent standard. When you not practicing with your teammates, do you practice your weapons handling skills? Most likely yes. Individuals compose teams, good individuals are good teams.

                                                                          As far as your sentiment that poorly trained guys having good team tactics, and winning is true and valid. But keep in mind, they had A LOT of casualty’s. Probably because they were poorly trained on an individual basis.

                                                                          Again, you are right that TEAM is more important. And yes, a bunch Chris Costa’s running a round is wrong.

                                                                          At the end of the day, running your gun is important. Team tactics more so.

                                                                          I hope you get where I’m coming from…

                                                                        • #72436
                                                                          Buddy
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            I absolutely get your point and agree with your last post. Happy Easter.

                                                                          • #72437
                                                                            Seth
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              I hope all is well with you also. Happy Easter….

                                                                            • #72438
                                                                              Thomas
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Seth said:
                                                                                “As far as your sentiment that poorly trained guys having good team tactics, and winning is true and valid. But keep in mind, they had A LOT of casualty’s. Probably because they were poorly trained on an individual basis.”

                                                                                Actually, the casualties in WWI had a lot to do with the fact that soldiers were poorly led by officers who did not understand that advances in artillery and the widespread employment of machine guns had drastically changed warfare. Training and SUT had not caught up to modern weaponry.

                                                                              • #72439
                                                                                Seth
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  I was thinking like Okinowa. Sorry for lack of clarification.

                                                                                • #72440
                                                                                  DiznNC
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    There’s a real easy solution to all this discussion. Show up to one of Max’s classes and see what’s actually important, and what’s not.

                                                                                    No technique, no matter how good, in your mind, is relevant to us, if it doesn’t work in our terrain and situation. No one is saying weapons manipulation, per se, is not important. What we’re saying is there are many techniques that are not applicable to our terrain and situation.

                                                                                    It has been my experience that a lot of these weapons manipulation skills that are practiced for lightening speed on the square range are not that important when doing fire and maneuver in the bush. Yes, you have to be competent in what you’re doing, but there is no need to cut nano-seconds off your time in most cases.

                                                                                    The current frame of reference is urban assault in the GWOT. This is an entirely different situation from what we’re talking about preparing for, namely light infantry tactics in deeply wooded terrain. For that, you need to re-orient your thinking here. Looking at what the vast majority of folks are doing now is not going to help you figure out what YOU need to do in this fight.

                                                                                    Instead of arguing endlessly about this stuff, take a class and see what you think. Of course you need both weapons manipulation and team tactics skills. Arguing about which is more important is silly. You need them both. The OP is about separating those skills that are relevant to us, from those that aren’t. The way you do that is get out in the bush.

                                                                                  • #72441
                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      DiznNC is right about one thing. Take a MVT class. I recommend CRM first. You’re not gonna learn how to fire and maneuver if you don’t know how to operate your weapon system. The basics don’t change.

                                                                                    • #72442
                                                                                      Seth
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        As far as me… I’m taking the combined and one day 1day TCCC/Rifle in the fall. Until then, I’ll practice what I am now, if it don’t work…whatever, I’ll fix it. Later. B-)

                                                                                      • #72443
                                                                                        Thomas
                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                          Diz, you have a knack for setting par on these discussions. Thank you. Seconds count when identifying and acquiring targets but the seconds that count most are the ones used in the OODA loop. Those are best learned in the bush.

                                                                                          Thank you for your participation on the forum. You have a lot of knowledge to share and you share it in a very patient manner.

                                                                                        • #72444
                                                                                          Corvette
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            Word! Diz knocks ’em out of the park with 2 paragraphs.. I typed 90 minutes on my novel of a reply and I think it still didnt bring the point across as well as he did. :good:

                                                                                          • #72445
                                                                                            DiznNC
                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                              Guys I have been doing this stuff since 1976. I have had several decades to train and ponder these things. Since most of my experience was in deep jungles or woodlands, I have felt out of touch since the GWOT and all the changes taking place in T,T,&P’s. But I now think that my experience is once again relevant, considering our present circumstances.

                                                                                              The problem is in convincing guys to take a wider perspective of things, past what the current doctrine may be, and look at old school woodland T,T,&P’s. Perhaps because this is only what they’ve ever known, or the cult of military personality is so strong, or they have so much invested in what the already “know”, that it’s hard to change. Pick any two I suppose.

                                                                                              Another point to consider. In this day and age, some folks have a hard time with the concept of an absolute truth. They have been told so often that everything is all relative, you POV is equally valid to everyone else’s, etc. etc. In combat, there ARE absolute truths, Either you do the right thing, and live, or you do the wrong thing, and die. What you, or I think about it doesn’t matter. What matters is to discover what WORKS out there. And train accordingly.

                                                                                              It matters not to me what the T,T,&P may be. Old, new, in any combination thereof. I’m not saying everything I did back in the day is still valid, or everything they are doing today is bullshit. I’m saying consider it all in developing your own T,T,&P’s.

                                                                                              You know, when I was active duty, I can honestly say I never thought about how I was doing a mag change. I was concerned about the fight taking place. When I ran out of ammo, I changed the mag. Where did I put it? Fuck if I know, probably in a side cargo pocket. Malfunctions? Just clear it. Grip on the weapon? Really? Just point and shoot it for fuck’s sake.

                                                                                              What I was concerned about was getting my guys up on line and assaulting through the objective. All this weapons manipulation just took care of itself. We didn’t stand around and practice it endlessly. We did it enough on our own to be competent, and concentrated on TEAM skills. The individual skills also got better concurrently with the team training. Today it seems wpns manipulation has become an end unto itself. It’s only the beginning.

                                                                                            • #72446
                                                                                              Thomas
                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                Diz, I agree. I went to basic training in January 1978. In the bad old days my soldiers carried sticks and said “bang” because we couldn’t get weapons out of the arms room or blanks from the ASP.

                                                                                              • #72447
                                                                                                Corvette
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  Diz which theaters did you deploy to? You seem pretty confidant. Thoughts on what MVT should be training rather than what not to?

                                                                                                • #72448
                                                                                                  JustARandomGuy
                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                    You know, when I was active duty, I can honestly say I never thought about how I was doing a mag change. I was concerned about the fight taking place. When I ran out of ammo, I changed the mag. Where did I put it? Fuck if I know, probably in a side cargo pocket. Malfunctions? Just clear it. Grip on the weapon? Really? Just point and shoot it for fuck’s sake….

                                                                                                    You know, I think this is what it ALL comes down to-
                                                                                                    There’s obviously things that work and things that don’t. There are some new techniques that are better, and some old ones that beat the new ones and even some gear that helps people perform certain techniques better. In the end it doesn’t matter which one or combination-of anyone picks to use- as long as you can execute it well, and it gets the job done, and isn’t some weird convoluted ridiculous shit. Because that’s, IMO, where ALL these complaints about “tacticool” weapons manips. come from is because there’s to many new techniques designed to fix problems that don’t really exist, or are so minor, they don’t need to be worried about.
                                                                                                    This kind of goes back top what I’ve mentioned about distilling it all down to it’s original useful form- we get so wrapped up in minutia and turning it all into some sort of art to be done “just so” that the original intent is lost.
                                                                                                    Yes, there IS a right way to change mags or clear a malfunction.
                                                                                                    Watch the old and new techniques. Experiment, pick the one that’s effective for you, learn it and do it. Beyond that, who cares?

                                                                                                  • #72449
                                                                                                    DiznNC
                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                      This isn’t about me and what I did or didn’t do. This is about a guy who has studied military history for 38 years and has tried to gleen the concepts and techniques as they might apply to our current situation.

                                                                                                      My background is USMC. I have led infantry, mortar, anti-tank, scout, sniper, and reconnaissance platoons, and one company in the ArNG. I have deployed overseas to the jungles in Okinawa, and the Philippines, to the hills and mountains of Korea. In CONUS, I have trained in the desert and mountains of the southwest, to the mid-west, northern, and eastern forests. And currently the southeast forests and swamplands.

                                                                                                      And that plus 99 cents will get you a cup of coffee. There are many more veterans out there, including on this site, with similar or better experiences. That’s not the point. The point is to discover what actually works out there.

                                                                                                      To do that, you need to go to one (or several) of Max’s classes. What he is teaching is classic light infantry tactics, which despite what anyone else says, is the heart of the matter. Weapons manipulation is your basic blocking and tackling. Fire and maneuver is your actual “play book”.

                                                                                                    • #72450
                                                                                                      Corvette
                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                        As Max’s new AI I was brought on specifically to teach weapons manipulation to students. What we found was people attending classes spent more time trying to figure out how to clear malfunctions and load their weapons than firing and maneuvering. They would go away having learned basic skills they should have had all along and without grabbing the bigger fruits the classes were designed to introduce or reinforce.

                                                                                                        The types of techniques I teach are applicable in all situations and will not get you killed but rather will increase your chances of survival. We measure life in seconds and inches in a gunfight and those things add up. When you spend more time than your enemy you die. It’s that easy.

                                                                                                        Diz I specifically addressed you and your experience because what you are advocating is slow at best and flat out wrong in many cases. The reason WM is such a huge part of combat is that individual skill is at a premium for the private individual. Even in small groups it’s evident. As private citizens we can’t afford to field large units and not worry about the little details. It’s the same argument of quantity vs quality.

                                                                                                        I would like to encourage everyone to come to the new WM classes. I will address all of the concerns presented in this thread and prove that certain techniques are better, I will explain why we do things, and if you like I can give you lots of context from my own experiences (Iraq, Afghanistan, an instructor etc) and how that translates to what you’d like to do in fight. I’ve spent plenty of time In the woods too. I promise you might just learn something that will save your life.

                                                                                                        These skills exist for a reason and they are applicable to everyone that carries a gun. Rather than mock them for lack of understanding come and see for yourself. It’ll only make you better.

                                                                                                        Aaron

                                                                                                      • #72451
                                                                                                        Corvette
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          I think we are seeing a bit of the “fog of the internet” at work here in this thread.

                                                                                                          The thread originally started to lament (and rightfully so IMO) the state of modern “tactical” training which is what we as a group consider “tacticool” ..
                                                                                                          And by now everyone knows whats meant by that and i wont define it yet again.

                                                                                                          However as I understand it (and I was there when it was discussed to start) that is not what Aaron is going to cover, no fancy youtube friendly drills just for their own sake etc.

                                                                                                          He is going to help people who need it get better at running their guns.

                                                                                                          this is so folks who may otherwise show up not being able to smoothly operate an AR and as a result get less out of their training than they could, will be empowerd to focus on the “fight” rather than their gun during training.

                                                                                                          And this is a good thing. :yes:

                                                                                                          I observed his teaching an ad-hoc class and even off-the-cuff he was quite good.
                                                                                                          And I look forward to taking one of his classes and I am certain I will learn a lot of useful things myself.

                                                                                                          I closed the thread for now since i want to make sure everyone who has followed it sees this last clarification here.
                                                                                                          I will reopen it at a later date. :bye:

                                                                                                        • #72452
                                                                                                          DiznNC
                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                            This is actually a very good thread to explore some more. Aaron brings up some good points about the value of a solid base of WM. And Max brings up some good points about separating GOOD WM from tacti-cool nonsense, and how a good progression goes from WM to SUT.

                                                                                                            I’d like to throw a few things out there for discussion and see what other folks are doing, especially with input from Aaron since he is our SME here on the forum.

                                                                                                            Mag changes. I use a chest rig for ready mags with additional mags on the belt line to plus up with. I use a reload with retention, if at all possible. I will cant rifle slightly (especially when proned out, rocking to my right), hit the release, and grasp the old mag, and stuff it behind my chest rig. I then grab new mag, insert into magwell, push/pull, hit paddle with thumb. Aim in and fire.

                                                                                                            I like this method because it works for me in the woods, when kneeling and proned out. This combines good WM with good SUT, IMHO. I use the reload with retention, when at all possible, because I’m not getting issued new mags back at the base camp. As long as I am behind cover I think manipulating one mag at a time makes sense, especially at night/ low viz, and with fine motor skills trying to go to shit. I keep my waist strap cinched up to capture mags until I can plus up from beltline and stuff empties in the belt line pouch (USGI style 3-mag pouches).

                                                                                                            With the caveat being that if you need to do a speed reload, you hit release, let mag drop, and get new mag in ASAP. Police up mags later on consolidation, if at all possible, or just go home alive one mag short.

                                                                                                          • #72453
                                                                                                            Corvette
                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                              This technique is not new (it actually exists in the current field manual) the only issue that can occur is the length of time you are out of ammo.

                                                                                                              Once you run dry you’re taking that empty magazine and stowing it then moving to access a fresh mag and then reloading.

                                                                                                              I recommend immediately bringing a fresh magazine to the weapon and performing a reload. That magazine you just ejected is empty so it’s not useful now BUT I like to teach you to survive two things. The first being the gunfight you’re currently in and the second being the gunfight that’s coming up next. So saving the empty mag is fine. But not at the cost of your life.

                                                                                                              Here’s the Y (why )factor. If I just shot a noun long enough to run my magazine dry to I really want to have an empty weapon in my hand longer than necessary?

                                                                                                              So the question is this. Is the possible future value of an empty magazine worth the time you spend saving it during a current gunfight?

                                                                                                              We have to remember that practice doesn’t make perfect. Practice makes permanent. At some point you may not have the time to save that mag but your muscle memory is forcing you to. Food for thought.

                                                                                                              There was a study done on police officers killed during shoot outs with spent brass in their pockets. The cops where ejecting their brass into their hand and putting it into their pocket before reloading. This was done so that on the range they didn’t have to pick up brass after. Don’t think that you’ll magically execute something different in a fight that you’ve never practiced before. You don’t rise to the occasion you default to your highest level of training mastered. In the case of these cops their training killed them. They had enough time to reload but spent it doing something else.

                                                                                                              For everyone reading if you have specific questions about a technique post it here so we can all talk about it and provide constructive criticism.

                                                                                                              Aaron

                                                                                                            • #72454
                                                                                                              Max
                                                                                                              Keymaster

                                                                                                                Here’s the Y (why )factor. If I just shot a noun long enough to run my magazine dry to I really want to have an empty weapon in my hand longer than necessary?

                                                                                                                We’re talking about a second or two at most to retain a mag. We’re obviously not talking about standing still out in the open alone for our purposes here. The rest of your team will be providing fire and that combined with being behind cover (at least you should be) give you a bit of extra time so to speak.

                                                                                                                So the question is this. Is the possible future value of an empty magazine worth the time you spend saving it during a current gunfight?

                                                                                                                For me personally, 100% unequivocally yes. I will have a finite number of magazines. Without magazines, I’ll have a really complicated, slow to load, single shot rifle.

                                                                                                                There was a study done on police officers killed during shoot outs with spent brass in their pockets. The cops where ejecting their brass into their hand and putting it into their pocket before reloading. This was done so that on the range they didn’t have to pick up brass after. Don’t think that you’ll magically execute something different in a fight that you’ve never practiced before. You don’t rise to the occasion you default to your highest level of training mastered. In the case of these cops their training killed them. They had enough time to reload but spent it doing something else.

                                                                                                                Having worked in and around law enforcement back in the mid 90’s, I’m personally well familiar with this. However, I think its completely unrelated to and not applicable to what we’re discussing here. A police officer in a gunfight is most likely going to be a solo event, out in the open. He can pick up his spare mags or whatever after the fight, or, simply go to his supply section and get more if they are lost. Completely different situation all the way around vs. patrolling my area/property with my group post-shtf or in say a situation such as what Max write’s about in Patriot Dawn.

                                                                                                                Just my wooden nickel. :-)

                                                                                                              • #72455
                                                                                                                Max
                                                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                                                  Forgot to add above… of course, if I am face to face with an adversary, then my priority is to get the weapon loaded and back running. An empty or otherwise non functional mag will obviously be dropped if the situation calls for it.

                                                                                                                  Again, context is key. We’re not talking about CQB, LE work, etc… here though are we? We’re talking about SUT in a rural/wooded context.

                                                                                                                • #72456
                                                                                                                  Greg Owens
                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                    I’m with Diz on prone technique although I’m experimenting with
                                                                                                                    shouldering my weapon before hitting the bolt release to avoid
                                                                                                                    “limp wristing” the bolt closure. Also this is why I load 27 rds.
                                                                                                                    in the mag to avoid disaster. I’m with Aaron on dropping the
                                                                                                                    empty (and sometimes partially filled ) mags. I plan on fighting
                                                                                                                    with such speed and fury I don’t want anything slowing me down.

                                                                                                                  • #72457
                                                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                      Old thread opened back up. Threads merged.

                                                                                                                    • #72458
                                                                                                                      Lloyd
                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                        I feel like I’m the “baby” in this discussion, since I have no combat experience beyond pointing a gun at dirtbags a couple of times… However, based on all my “tacticool” training: I took a couple of classes taught by Larry Vickers. Not all of his stuff makes perfect sense outside his area of specialization, but one thing he did was GREAT, and meshes pretty well with what you guys are talking about.

                                                                                                                        He taught us a bunch of shooting, reloading, malfunction clearance drills on days 1 and 2, and then threw in some “mind-fuck drills” on day 3 which overwhelmed our ability to think to the point that our “weapon manipulation” was being done (or not done) at an unconscious level.

                                                                                                                        For example: He’d have us standing in front of 3 targets with 2 barrels between us and the targets… Then he’d say “two rounds each, body-body-head, left-right-center” and have us shoot that combo while moving in a figure-8 around/between the barrels, sometimes starting the drill with less than a full mag, or with a dummy round loaded in the mag to force a malfunction clearance in the middle of the drill.

                                                                                                                        The point is that the basic weapon manipulation stuff IS plenty important. If you have to clear a malfunction during a high stress situation, or even just shoot accurately, you need to be able to do it without a lot of conscious thought.

                                                                                                                        However, it is NOT the be-all-end-all.

                                                                                                                      • #72459
                                                                                                                        Corvette
                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                          I’m not seeing any advantage. It works but is not optimal. I think striving for perfection makes us better even if we never attain in.

                                                                                                                        • #72460
                                                                                                                          Max
                                                                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                                                                            The point is that the basic weapon manipulation stuff IS plenty important.

                                                                                                                            Make no mistake, it is very important.

                                                                                                                            Larry is one of many instructors that I’ve trained under as well.

                                                                                                                          • #72461
                                                                                                                            Seth
                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                              I will take a few pictures to illustrate how I do it, later, in the morning.

                                                                                                                              First, grip:
                                                                                                                              -Moving and Shooting: When I move while shoot, I push and pull, and use a C-ish grip.
                                                                                                                              -Stationary: I use, again, a traditional grip. Exactly like Larry Vickers. I don’t keep my arm parallel with the barrel, it drops, the weight of my arm camming back keeps it in my shoulder.

                                                                                                                              Second, Reloads:
                                                                                                                              -Speed variant; I pull my rifle slightly back, bottom of of th stock touching the middle of my (small) bicep, and then pull my magazine out, after that I just reach down, and grab my mag from my pouch, guiding just the top of the mag in, and then shoving it as hard as possible (LOL, Thats what she said…), as the mag gos in I hit the paddle, re-grip, rock-and-roll.
                                                                                                                              -With-Retention; Moving the rifle back, I place the bottom of the stock at my elbow, muzzle almost vertical, rip mag out, place in dump pouch, and then repeat the above process. Everything is the as the speed reload, except my stock placement and putting it in the dumper.

                                                                                                                              Third, Malfunctions:
                                                                                                                              Doctrine

                                                                                                                              These are the FASTEST and MOST SIMPLE AND EFFCIENT ways for ME… :-)

                                                                                                                            • #72462
                                                                                                                              RRS
                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                IMO the new class will fill a training progression spot that most people cannot train for coming from square ranges, that is the important part. Mag retention a detail dependent on situation.

                                                                                                                              • #72463
                                                                                                                                aveighter
                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                  This should settle things once and for all. B-)

                                                                                                                                • #72464
                                                                                                                                  DiznNC
                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                    That is the best fucking rap I have ever seen. That is truly some funny shit. This guy should be rolling on the Tonight show.

                                                                                                                                    Got my Glock out and cocked…

                                                                                                                                  • #72465
                                                                                                                                    DiznNC
                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                      On another note, and this should have been first, the SAFETY. When done shooting safety goes ON. When down in position ready to fire, safety comes OFF. It may take a 1/2 second more but will save you from shooting people and things you didn’t really mean to.

                                                                                                                                      Especially in fire and maneuver, where your buddies are all around you, along with some evil mothers you need to shoot.

                                                                                                                                      You train 8 months and got no badge…

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