Tactical Driving Training

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    • #98013
      mdbjjc
      Participant

        There are a lot of videos where you see IG shooters jumping out of cars to shoot at targets. There are many trainers teaching folks to employ tactics that are specific to vehicles including Max.

        However, anyone do any training on tactical driving? From what I understand there techniques and skills that are helpful to know as a driver to escape bad situations or to help neutralize threats with one’s vehicle. Akin to Vehicular Jiu-Jitsu, VJJ.

        Anyone see the utility in such training in addition to the correct tactical training with guns in and around vehicles?

      • #98014
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          Yes there is value to such training, cost starts around $800 for one day and the sky’s the limit at the high-end.

          I would weigh the value depending on your individual threat level vs other skills you already have vs budget.

          I wouldn’t recommend putting off MVT to attend such training, if budget can handle it then would be value added or after achieving confidence in standard training.

          I don’t spend enough time behind the wheel to make it worth my resources. Though I have had some of this as OJT by UK Officer in Afghanistan. Definitely a lot more to it than most realize.

        • #98015
          JohnnyMac
          Participant

            Team O’Niel is the standard go-to for specific driving training, it’s very pricey. I haven’t attended, but I hear really good things.

            Many techniques/vehicle dynamics can’t be experienced on public roads…at least not legally/safely :whistle:

            As far a gun handling goes, I think what you see is mostly for the flashiness. Mike Pannone has a thoughtful article on it: http://soldiersystems.net/2016/03/12/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-36/

            @seant is a driving wizard

          • #98016
            mdbjjc
            Participant

              Thanks Joe and JohnnyMac

            • #98017
              mdbjjc
              Participant

                Yes there is value to such training, cost starts around $800 for one day and the sky’s the limit at the high-end.

                I would weigh the value depending on your individual threat level vs other skills you already have vs budget.

                I wouldn’t recommend putting off MVT to attend such training, if budget can handle it then would be value added or after achieving confidence in standard training.

                I don’t spend enough time behind the wheel to make it worth my resources. Though I have had some of this as OJT by UK Officer in Afghanistan. Definitely a lot more to it than most realize.

                Certainly not trying to detract from Max’s training, but I appreciate the input. Basic training via Max. Then add what you don’t have, look at ones potential threats, look at ones deficiencies, budget time and money accordingly.

              • #98018
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                Moderator

                  Here is a basic example of my thoughts on training progression.

                  If you carry a handgun for defense then attending First Sergeant’s Defensive Concealed Handgun course would be my first priority.

                  Now if you can’t carry due to State restrictions (I would move) or due to specific work issues then a quality combative program would be a priority. Obviously the combative program is beneficial regardless.

                  The rest of VTC’s courses should be taken as suggested. The HEMS course maybe of use before taking HEAT1 if your weak on carbine skills even though HEAT1 incorporates HEMS into it. The added carbine training is beneficial to many who think they’re already good enough.

                  Remembering that much of VTC’s courses are applicable to your handgun training though carbine focused.

                  As you are progressing beyond HEAT2 this is where HEAT FOF allows you to reinforce what you have learned in a realistic enviroment.

                  After HEAT1 you can start adding various medical, navigation, etc…

                  As stated nothing is written in stone, this is just a example.

                  Anyone wanting guidance on training progression could get a variety of thoughts here on the Forum, though I would weigh thoughts from Max and First Sergeant with more validity than the rest of us. ;-)

                • #98019
                  SeanT
                  Keymaster

                    @seant is a driving wizard

                    Driving Training
                    BSR has some good offerings. As Joe mentioned, this training can be pretty expensive and specific. I have a lot of on track time, not nearly as much off road stuff. Performance driving is similar in some ways to the shooting sports. Lots of people think they can do it… then they find out that they can’t as well as they think. Driving training scars are very hard to train out…. Sitting in the right seat with a student driving is not for the faint hearted….I competed more than I instructed but when I did, it was always interesting. If you live near a commercial road racing track, check out their web site and calendar to see what organizations rent the track and offer open enrollment for high performance driving education.Beware though, we used to call it the ‘go fast crack pipe’.

                  • #98020
                    A_A_Ron2guns
                    Participant

                      I drive a lot. A LOT. In a bunch of different countries and a bunch of different jobs. I’ve had some high performance training and vehicle centric combat. It’s not beginners stuff. It’s a ton of fun but if you’re not gettting quality training it’s hard to do on your own. There’s a lot of little nuances too. VCC is different from convoy ops, is your convoy hard target or low profile? What’s the mission? How many vehicles? Etc. Just the different ways you can use the same vehicle in different roles requires training and experience. It’s a BIG skill set.

                    • #98021
                      RobRoy
                      Participant

                        For at least a bit there was youtube video of Delta doing their training, it was two rock songs long video of their cool dude stuff. Part of it showed them using old cars for driving training, interesting but I don’t have permission to attempt any of that with my wife’s Hyundai.

                      • #98022
                        A_A_Ron2guns
                        Participant

                          I’m not sure what the overhead would be for a class like that. Ramming techniques are pretty straightforward and so are the basics of emergency driving. You’d need a class room, cars you can destroy and a track. Hummmmmm

                        • #98023
                          RobRoy
                          Participant

                            I just assumed that Delta took advantage of the Cash for Clunkers government boondoggle, all the rolling wrecks they could further wreck.

                          • #98024
                            Max
                            Keymaster

                              MVT has run mobility training focussed on convoy movement. We did this on suitable ground in Texas and Idaho. We always used student vehicles and thus we had to be careful not to damage them. Of course, no one booked Texas mobility this year so we are looking at the death of it, and Texas classes in general. A great shame.

                              This of course was not focussed on mobility or driving skills, off-road techniques etc. Although theory was touched on.

                              I have noticed a rise in cool guy vehicle tactics courses on flat ranges. I am generally interested in the logistics of this, in terms of affording vehicles, shooting them up, replacing windshields, expense, recovery etc. Altbough many of these classes are LE focussed for patrol car drills, they do run civilian classes. How do they work the affordability?

                            • #98025
                              Max
                              Keymaster

                                A little off topic, but I did meet and forge freindship with the Rifles Only team who have a facility near Corpus Christie in Texas, at SHOT. I was offered to use the facility for classes. This is not to say there is anything wrong with the Brady Ranch, because there is not, but an advantage would be access to the publicity machine and huge email list if Rifles Only publicised an MVT class at their facility.

                                I do need to say that partly due to recent issues with mobile classes (Texas) tied in with further development of the VTC, I will be focussing more on home classes at the VTC. This will be general strategy going forward. Students need to be prepared to travel to the VTC, just like you may go somehere else like Rifles Only, or Thunder Ranch, or whatever.

                                Why? Becuase the facility has been develooed to enhance the already excellent MVT training classes. Thus we have cadre, curriculum and facility all working together for the best training experience.

                                Those who rely on mobile classes, or when I get emails about ‘when you come to X state” etc will largely have to adjust thinking to planning on travel to VTC, for the optimal training experience.

                              • #98026
                                A_A_Ron2guns
                                Participant

                                  I’ve seen somewhere that rental companies have been used for vehicles. Pay for the no questions asked policy and shoot/smash a car up then return it. I don’t know if that’s a legit technique but I’ve heard of it.

                                  I’m always a bit put off by civilian only classes. Sure a regular citizen has less chance of being in a vehicle centric encounter but it does happen and it’s not any less terrifying or dangerous. The undesirable criminal element that might take that class to learn counter TTPs would be few and far between. If any, and should be sniffed out and expelled from class by any reputable instructor.

                                  It’s why we wear our guns while teaching. It’s not just for demonstrations.

                                • #98027
                                  SeanT
                                  Keymaster

                                    I’ve seen somewhere that rental companies have been used for vehicles. Pay for the no questions asked policy and shoot/smash a car up then return it. I don’t know if that’s a legit technique but I’ve heard of it.

                                    I may or may not have used a rental for a pace car and Time Trials…
                                    No smashing.

                                    BSR has a huge pile of beater cars that get used in the training. They have a State Dept. facility adjacent and do a lot of the diplomatic deployment training.

                                    OGARA

                                    Ogara is based at the Virginia International Raceway ( awesome track!!) and have some classes if you are closer to that area.

                                  • #98028
                                    mdbjjc
                                    Participant

                                      SeanT

                                      OGARA is closer. Reputable trainers? It’s hard to tell from their website their credentials. May be I’m looking at the wrong spot. Thanks for the lead

                                    • #98029
                                      mdbjjc
                                      Participant

                                        I drive a lot. A LOT. In a bunch of different countries and a bunch of different jobs. I’ve had some high performance training and vehicle centric combat. It’s not beginners stuff. It’s a ton of fun but if you’re not gettting quality training it’s hard to do on your own. There’s a lot of little nuances too. VCC is different from convoy ops, is your convoy hard target or low profile? What’s the mission? How many vehicles? Etc. Just the different ways you can use the same vehicle in different roles requires training and experience. It’s a BIG skill set.

                                        Who would be your top suggestions for training?

                                      • #98030
                                        A_A_Ron2guns
                                        Participant

                                          Gryphon Group used to be the standard. It was a good all round course. Now a days I’m not too sure honestly. Almost all of my training was institutional so it would be closed to anyone else. Part of the reason I’m not a fan of mil/LEO only classes.

                                          Also it depends what you want to do with the car.

                                        • #98031
                                          mdbjjc
                                          Participant

                                            Gryphon Group used to be the standard. It was a good all round course. Now a days I’m not too sure honestly. Almost all of my training was institutional so it would be closed to anyone else. Part of the reason I’m not a fan of mil/LEO only classes.

                                            Also it depends what you want to do with the car.

                                            I can see that there are parallels with driving and shooting when it comes to training. There are all types of gun training for all different reasons. Same with driving training, I’m assuming.

                                            I’m not LEO or mil. Just a civilian, but I have seen personal defensive driving courses here or there with the civilian in mind. That’s probably a good place to start. I don’t need an armored vehicle course with off roading or whatever…just like I don’t need to know how to rappel out of a helicopter and breech doors with an assault team (or may be I do :wacko: …ha).

                                          • #98032
                                            mdbjjc
                                            Participant

                                              Anybody hear of Bobby Ore?

                                            • #98033
                                              farmer
                                              Participant

                                                I may be way off, but wasn’t Bobby Ore a hockey player? Or is this same name -different person?

                                                Edit : Hockey player is spelled- Orr.

                                                Bobby Ore has Stunt & Tactical driving school in Sebring, FL. bobbyoresports.com

                                              • #98034
                                                mdbjjc
                                                Participant

                                                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LlnZrWymWp0

                                                  Podcast on the subject of tactical driving

                                                • #98035
                                                  mdbjjc
                                                  Participant

                                                    I took the security/evasive Driving course at BSR. Located at Summit Point, WV.

                                                    Phenomenal experience with great instruction. It’s as eye opening of an experience as going to HEAT 1 (aka CTT). Highly recommend this type of training for any and all. You’ll never look at a vehicle quite the same way. J turns, Y turns, PIT, pushing vehicles to its limits, ramming through barricades, scenario training. It’s drinking througha firehouse of information.

                                                    BSR has a phenomenal facility with decades of experience training SOF, and every three letter agency in America.

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