Some cold weather training thoughts.

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    • #90715
      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
      Moderator

        The Merino Wool Base Layers Thread brought this to my memory.

        Seemed worth sharing.

        Even though I now live in Florida I have an extensive background in extreme cold weather environments.

        If you have spent much time here you know I’ve trained and overnighted in temperatures down to -65°F real temp, not wind chill corrected. Much of this was way North of the Arctic Circle.

        The quality and variety of gear has improved dramatically since my days.

        Just don’t over heat.

        It’s real easy to do, probably easier to do than in hot weather (know the signs of heat injury), and dehydration is a real problem in extreme cold. Drink plenty of water at timed intervals regardless if thirsty. Got untrained family or people with you? You will need to monitor their water consumption and probably make them drink. Check the color of the snow after they urinate, if too yellow they are not hydrating enough. Think this is too extreme? Want to carry them and their gear? Or have to consider leaving them behind if in a E&E? Sometimes you even have to babysit adults.

        One thing to remember; particularly when dealing with cold weather gear, there is no one size fits all solution.

        Getting advice to establish a baseline starting point is great and will help speed up your learning curve, but you have to actually get out there and train in these extremes of your AO.

        What works for one, won’t be right for another.

        Have a escape planned when conducting cold weather training to avoid damaging injury. Frost bite effects you for the rest of your life and doesn’t make you tough.

        Live in a cold weather area? Test your cold weather gear overnight in your backyard.

        Train safe and effective.

        Prove your skills and gear now!

        Your life depends on it.

      • #90716
        Roadkill
        Participant

          Joe is completely correct. Another thing to consider is the length of the cold season. I work outdoors and in the early part of the winter I’m freezing my butt off in 20 degree weather because my body has not acclimated from the summer/fall season. Towards the end of the winter season on last ice that same 20 degrees can be handled in a sweatshirt and windbreaker. This being said your gear is going to change based on how much time you spend out there. The guys on the Shackleton adventure to the South Pole were comfortable wearing lite clothing in the teens.

        • #90717
          Robert
          Participant

            Great thread, thanks!

            Folks down South would be wise to head this info also. Back in 91 or 92 we were out in Central Florida doing some training. A handful of us did a solo night land nav class, with most not returning till about 1 or 2am. I was 19, young, dumb and full… Anyways, a young dipstick. I didn’t have good cold weather gear and I didn’t pack it. The guys on my team one of them had a small tent, they knew I didn’t have a bag- “you want to set up the tent?” I did the wanna be tough but very damn answer- “if YOU want to put up the tent” (in other words, I don’t need it but your pansy arse might… LOL). The guy just smiled and climbed in his extreme cold bag.

            It got to 19 that night. With normal BDU’s, a poncho and a space blanket I lay next to and probably sometimes IN the small fire. Woke up every time the first went out and shivering uncontrollably stumbled around to find more wood. Worse night in the woods I’ve ever had.

            A few years later I was buying an ECW sleeping bag system rated to negative 20 complete with fleece booties and hood. “Why you buying that, it doesn’t get that cold in Florida!” I said “I learned my lesson.”

            I got a mild case of hypothermia a few years before training in Feb in the rain. I’ve heard that you are more susceptible to hypothermia if you have had it before? Is that true?

            Don’t mess around with the cold folks!

          • #90718
            wheelsee
            Participant

              Many don’t realize that hypothermia is more of an issue in the South versus North or Mountain. A temp of 45 with 90% humidity will quickly chill one “to the bone.” Hypothermia is an insidious injury, you probably won’t realize its happening until too late.

            • #90719
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                I’ve heard that you are more susceptible to hypothermia if you have had it before? Is that true?

                I had never heard this and can’t find any information to support this so I would say that is false.

                Hyperthermia (heat stroke) can damage the bodies ability to regulate body temperature in the future so this is what your are probably thinking of.

                I have mentioned this case before…
                4 Army Ranger Candidates Die in Chilly Florida Swamp

                Col. Galen Jackman, commander of the Ranger Training Brigade at Eglin, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying yesterday that the water temperature was 52 degrees, just above the 50-degree threshold set in 1977 after two soldiers died from hypothermia during Ranger training. The air temperature was in the 60’s after several days of chilly weather.

                Cold water (less than 70°F) can lower your body temperature, causing hypothermia. The human body cools 25 times faster in cold water than it does in air.

                Though rare in can occur in 80°F water if body is in a starving condition.

                Some Thread drift…
                If interested the data is out there, but there was a girl with a core temp near 50°F under water for more than an hour that survived without brain injury. Though it took something like 6 hours of CPR with full ACLS meds/techniques to achieve this with external/internal warming.

                I mention this only to provide hope to not give up; even in a “Post-Event” situation, if physically able.

                The rule that someone isn’t dead until they are warm and dead applies.

              • #90720
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                Moderator

                  About the charts, the core temp chart is needed for medical trained, the water temp chart needs to be briefed when conducting water ops whether by boat or swamp conditions, or if aviation over water.

                  Yea, aviation maybe a stretch for us, but there are pilots here and you never know what may come available “Post-Event” so I don’t completely rule it out.

                • #90721
                  wheelsee
                  Participant

                    Plenty of anecdotal evidence but here is information on disability guidelines that mentions long-term cold sensitivity

                    http://www.mdguidelines.com/frostbite

                  • #90722
                    First Sergeant
                    Moderator

                      Once someone was a cold weather injury or a hot weather injury, we kept a record of it. They were monitored more closely than others.

                      As Joe and others said above, the only way to learn this stuff is to actually get out in it and learn what works. Just because something is advertised as cold weather gear doesn’t necessarily mean that it is.

                      Several guys learned some hard lessons in reference to gear at the November 2015 CP.

                      FILO
                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                      Je ne regrette rien
                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                    • #90723
                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                      Moderator

                        Plenty of anecdotal evidence but here is information on disability guidelines that mentions long-term cold sensitivity

                        Just in case we are crossing wires here, hypothermia doesn’t have lasting affects with the exception of extreme cases, primarily we are talking where an individual was resuscitated.

                        Frostbite is another matter all together, even mild frostbite has lasting consequences. Cold sensitivity, nerve damage, etc…

                        Have a escape planned when conducting cold weather training to avoid damaging injury. Frost bite effects you for the rest of your life and doesn’t make you tough.

                        With Winter here, I hope to help those dealing with it to avoid these problems.

                        As well as pointing out that it doesn’t have to be Arctic conditions to experience cold weather injuries.

                        Remember those Rangers in the above article, trained physically fit servicemen with professional instructors providing supervision and still 4 died.

                        Lack of respect to these dangers is very costly!

                        Several guys learned some hard lessons in reference to gear at the November 2015 CP.

                        Don’t let VTC be the place to learn such lessons, you have plenty to occupy your mind those classes.

                      • #90724
                        Mike Q
                        Participant

                          As one of those guys in the November 2015 class. Let me just reiterate; each person is different. What is comfortable for one person is freezing for another. I did everything Max and 1st Sergeant suggested online, during the patrol base overnight. I learned a massive difference of 3/4 sleeping pad vs. full length that night! I don’t think I slept at all that night and was physically worthless the next day. 1st Sergeant had to keep a close eye on my that next day. That’s when he pulled me aside and started suggesting some of the below actions and letting my know my build type is the hardest to keep warm in winter months.

                          I’m a relatively slight build, 5′-11″, 165 lbs. Therefore I’m always cold, and when I sleep I get even colder. I will have to carry more cold weather gear and sleeping accommodations then larger warmer body guys. It’s a fact.

                          I’ve spent some nights in the cold since trying to adjust my gear to make appropriate changes.

                          As Joe stated, learn these lessons on your own. Losing one third of your training time is double shitty.

                        • #90725
                          Corvette
                          Participant

                            I’m a relatively slight build, 5′-11″, 165 lbs. Therefore I’m always cold, and when I sleep I get even colder. I will have to carry more cold weather gear and sleeping accommodations then larger warmer body guys. It’s a fact.

                            I’ve spent some nights in the cold since trying to adjust my gear to make appropriate changes.

                            I feel your struggle. I’m 6′ 183-ish, and I freeze every winter. Very little body fat. I have yet to find a pair of gloves that will keep my hands warm. Wool seems to be the only thing that works well.

                          • #90726
                            Robert
                            Participant

                              Growing up fat I always heard the “fat is an insulator” thing and thought it was BS. Then I lost about 50 lbs. and winter’s started seriously sucking for me. I believe the saying now.

                            • #90727
                              wheelsee
                              Participant

                                Just in case we are crossing wires here, hypothermia doesn’t have lasting affects with the exception of extreme cases, primarily we are talking where an individual was resuscitated.

                                Frostbite is another matter all together, even mild frostbite has lasting consequences. Cold sensitivity, nerve damage, etc…

                                Joe, the crossed wires are my fault….I had responded earlier with a hypothermia comment. I should have clarified the frostbite (local injury) versus hypothermia (system injury).

                                Thank-you for the clarification, and yes, frostbite has long-term consequences/damage :good:

                              • #90728
                                DiznNC
                                Participant

                                  Yep that time of year. I have been out training in it on a regular basis, which I find works well for me. Like a little bit every day so that you slowly build up a resistance to it.

                                  Overnight when you are static, the worst time. Obviously enemy sit drives the deal; when you can, you warm up with fires and such. When you can’t you suffer. I have found that 3 days without warming up is about my limit. After that I need to warm back up. So the thing is to try and limit your missions in close contact with the enemy to 3 days or less, then fall back “behind the lines” and warm up.

                                  Even the GI sleep systems get cold in extreme temps. You just need an enclosed shelter to warm up; bashas, lean-tos get cold, especially if the wind shifts.

                                  The other problem is movement and overheating during the day. Almost funny but the exact opposite. I am constantly hiking in all weather so I have my layers dialed in. It’s all about the level of exertion, and what corresponding clothing layers you need. And having a system that’s relatively easy to switch in and out of. So stay away from heavy, all-in-one clothing; keep base, insulation and shell layers separate to mix n match.

                                  Water bladders freeze up in colder temps. I use wide mouth Nalgene bottles instead. Fill them up with warm water to start with. Put them in upside down so the bottom freezes first and you will still have water at the top. I also use the 18 oz Yetis with hot ranger coffee and chicken noodle soup. They are usually good for 6-8 hours.

                                  Cannister stoves can be a little anemic in colder temps, especially at altitude. Keep your Nesbit stove handy or even your liquid fuel stove for extended ops. Hot liquids are essential.

                                  Feet are the big problem. When it’s really cold you need a good vapor barrier or over boot. Mickey Mouse, Sorrel, etc. The Norwegians have a nice issue over boot, similar to our Muk-Luks.

                                  For slightly warmer stuff, I still prefer a non-gtx boot. I’ve had really good luck with REI liner socks and Sealskins waterproof socks, along with OR gaitors, although I’m testing out some Bergan Yetis this year.

                                  For lube the synthetic stuff is good to around zero, then consider a good dry film lube. The old timers swore by Marvel Mystery Oil. Don’t know if that’s even around any more.

                                  Keep your weapons and equipment outside in the cold. Do not thaw then out with you. Doing so will cause condensation and possible malfunctions.

                                  Consider the jarhead happy suit as an alternative to a sleeping bag. Wear all your kit underneath it. Throw off when ready to move or fight. Great for sentry duty.

                                • #90729
                                  wheelsee
                                  Participant

                                    Consider the jarhead happy suit as an alternative to a sleeping bag. Wear all your kit underneath it. Throw off when ready to move or fight. Great for sentry duty.

                                    Diz,

                                    I was totally ignorant of this, so i went looking.

                                    Here is a link from eBay
                                    http://www.ebay.com/bhp/usmc-happy-suit

                                    GREAT information :good:

                                  • #90730
                                    wesmc
                                    Participant

                                      I have found that while moving briskly, under a load of around 50 lbs, down to zero, I can only wear a thin base and a regular BDU shirt. Ceramic plates are great for staying warm, in my experience. Just need to pull on an outer layer like that happy suit, or something, as soon as you stop, right? I’m considering this piece of gear by Hill People Gear.

                                      https://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Products/tabid/762/CategoryID/4/ProductID/19/Default.aspx

                                    • #90731
                                      DiznNC
                                      Participant

                                        Yeah the HP Mt Serape is a pretty good piece of kit. This takes the happy suit to a new level. Designed from the bottom up as a insulating layer for use when stationary. Simply thrown over all your existing kit. The idea being you’re not wearing any insul when moving, so it is worn external just when needed. So you don’t have to jocky around multiple layers to add insulation.

                                      • #90732
                                        SeanT
                                        Keymaster

                                          Frostbite sucks, ask my toes… I have a very hard time keeping my toes from freezing when it is deep cold.

                                          I have also given myself hypothermia in Virginia in the springtime so you can certainly get caught and suffer if you are underprepared.

                                          I’m built like Mike and don’t have much insulating fat. I try to stoke the furnace so to speak with high calories from fats and protein. Stay hydrated but empty bladder frequently so the energy is not trying to warm that liquid. Drinking warm fluids helps to not chill your core. Wind is the devil when you are cold so wind shelter is very important.

                                        • #90733
                                          HiDesertRat
                                          Participant

                                            My brother sustained severe cold injury to his foot when age 19. Inebriated, crossed a frozen lake in sneakers with no socks. The next day, 4 of 5 toes on one foot were black. Mom had the family doc make a house call. He spread them out, gingerly with cotton, loosely covered, nothing touching. Said if it got worse or didn’t improve in 2 days, off to the hospital for surgery, i.e. they are coming off. He did ok.
                                            But to this day, 30 years later, cannot endure cold on that foot. Has forced him to purchase the best boots, socks for winter. Big price to pay for teenage stupidity.

                                          • #90734
                                            diomedes
                                            Participant

                                              So just as clarification:
                                              If you have hypothermia or heat stroke, you are not more more vulnerable to having it happen again.

                                              If you get frost bite, you can get nerve damage, which makes you more sensitive to heat and cold stimuli, thus the story above…..

                                              Dr. G

                                            • #90735
                                              wheelsee
                                              Participant

                                                If you have hypothermia or heat stroke, you are not more more vulnerable to having it happen again.

                                                Re: heat stroke, a couple or articles suggests otherwise, albeit temporary (in one article).

                                                This article from Current Sports Medicine Reports (2012) suggests that, in the case of heat stroke, you are more vulnerable, IF the events that led up to the heat stroke (at least in athletes) are not learned from. As well, the thermoregulatory functions may have been damaged. The article does point out that “the heat intolerance experienced after a case of exertional heatstroke often goes away within a few months.” https://www.outsideonline.com/1784146/am-i-more-likely-get-heatstroke-if-i’ve-already-had-it

                                                This article from Mayo Clinic also lists previous heat stroke as a risk factor for heat stroke (though doesn’t go into detail, which the above article may explain – one didn’t change or learn from the first one). http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heat-stroke/basics/risk-factors/con-20032814

                                              • #90736
                                                diomedes
                                                Participant

                                                  I think we are confusing a few things here.
                                                  So I’m not going to get into study design of strength of evidence or the biostats that lie behind it.

                                                  It is true if you are not healed from the first insult, you are susceptible to the same insult again. That is different. Don’t confuse that with being more susceptible next time.

                                                  The reason the lay mayo arrival reads that way is that if you are dumb enough to let it happen the first time…that stupidity is a risk factor.

                                                  No evidence exists (varified by uptodate) that increased risk exists.

                                                  And by the way. All medical journals are not created equal. The report that you quote, is in fact not rigorously peer reviewed and thus crap….

                                                • #90737
                                                  diomedes
                                                  Participant

                                                    This whole conversation reminds me of why I hate the way media and the web portrays medical science. If it’s on the interwebz it’s got to be true.

                                                    People don’t know what they don’t know. But google and internet experts make them think they do….

                                                    Wheelse this is not directed at you just a general vent

                                                  • #90738
                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                    Moderator

                                                      It is true if you are not healed from the first insult, you are susceptible to the same insult again. That is different. Don’t confuse that with being more susceptible next time.

                                                      I think for the layman; vice medical professional, this is splitting hairs.

                                                      It is true that the blanket statement “hyperthermia causes susceptibility to hyperthermia” is incorrect, however hyperthermia can cause permanent damage to the brain (hypothalamus) which has a number of possible problems to include hyperthermia risk.

                                                      Traumatic Brain Injury from other sources than heat has also demonstrated this.

                                                      Hyperthermia (heat stroke) can damage the bodies ability to regulate body temperature in the future…

                                                      The reason the various US military survival schools have been teaching this; for at least the last 50 years, is to emphasize prevention and caution the layman treating this under survival conditions with little expectation of advanced medical treatment within 72 hours.

                                                      Now if you have new evidence that all damage received from hyperthermia is fully recoverable I would like to see it.

                                                    • #90739
                                                      diomedes
                                                      Participant

                                                        Joe.
                                                        Happy to continue this conversation if you find it useful. But I’m not sure it is.
                                                        Still some concept confusion going on. And and biological plausiblity issues.
                                                        Not Interested in arguing to argue.

                                                      • #90740
                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                        Moderator

                                                          Not Interested in arguing to argue.

                                                          Agreed, I’ll send you a private message so we can discover the source of the confusion. :yes:

                                                        • #90741
                                                          diomedes
                                                          Participant

                                                            Lol good
                                                            We are all the same tribe.
                                                            No flame war needed or wanted.
                                                            :rose:

                                                          • #90742
                                                            DiznNC
                                                            Participant

                                                              Yeah I mean you can argue the general theory all day but what really counts is what works for you. Lots of old wives tales, and I guess new wives tales and pseudo science to boot.

                                                              I’ve heard all the old saws, and a few new ones, and really it comes down to personal experience. For instance, I’ve had lots of folks tell me that colds are not caused by cold weather exposure, but it’s some germ or whatever. OK, that’s nice but just about every time I over-do it in cold weather I get sick. Now you can tell me all day long that’s not what causes it, it was already there, blah, blah, blah, but at the end of the day, every time I stay out too long in cold weather, I get fucked.

                                                              Now to me, I really don’t care what the science is, I just know what happens to me with cold weather exposure. Especially at the beginning of the season. Now I suspect it has something to do with my sinuses, but again, doesn’t really matter, it just is what it is.

                                                              I layer up, limit exposure, and avoid cooling off too rapidly after rucking.

                                                              So there’s my 2C from 61 winter seasons. Sometimes you just gotta get out there and figure out what works for you.

                                                            • #90743
                                                              Corvette
                                                              Participant

                                                                deleted by skywalker

                                                              • #90744
                                                                hellokitty
                                                                Participant

                                                                  After reading this thread (thanks Joe), I decided to try out a new patrol bag in my bivy in 27 degree weather. I wanted to make sure it was enough for that temp. I did this in my backyard so if it wasn’t working I could just come inside. Patrol bag was OK temp wise, although I bit cool but doable. the problem is that the bag was too short. My shoulders were frozen. Also I felt like I was in a straight jacket. I think I will stick with my Intermediate bag. Its warm and roomy, even if heavier. :good:

                                                                  HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                                                  HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                                                  FOF X3
                                                                  OPFOR X2
                                                                  CLC X2
                                                                  RIFLEMAN

                                                                • #90745
                                                                  wheelsee
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    I did this in my backyard so if it wasn’t working I could just come inside. Patrol bag was OK temp wise, although I bit cool but doable. the problem is that the bag was too short. My shoulders were frozen. Also I felt like I was in a straight jacket. I think I will stick with my Intermediate bag. Its warm and roomy, even if heavier.

                                                                    Proof that you don’t have to pack everything up and do something for 3 days……..how many people have done the “basic checks”?

                                                                    Using the flashlight at night to see the beam, how far/wide?? What do you actually see?? Does it cast any shadows??

                                                                    Using your sleeping pad, even on the back porch?? Can you set it up at night, in total darkness??

                                                                    Using a water filter, can you use it in low light?? Do you even know what the various parts are for (different models)?? How much dirt is too much?? Does it require pre-filtering??

                                                                    Operating your rifle, can you change mags, operate the “controls” with your eyes closed??

                                                                    If you use a stove, can you assemble and light in the dark (disclaimer- outside…..)???

                                                                    Can you pack and retrieve items from your pack, in the dark, without the use of a light??

                                                                    You get the drift……BTW, all the above can be done on the back deck/patio without ever having to travel to “find a location”…… Train where you are, with what you have, now. What are you waiting for?? For those with kids, make a competition out of it, have fun!

                                                                  • #90746
                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                    Moderator

                                                                      Sizing a bag for yourself is really important, to avoid the claustrophobic feeling, and allow room for a fleece liner (a fleece blanket that can zip up like a sleeping bag).

                                                                      The fleece liner can add 10°F to 15°F to the comfort rating.

                                                                      Hellokitty glad you had a chance to test it out!

                                                                      Imagine being stuck with something not right for days at a time.

                                                                      Speaking of liners a easily washed sheet liner goes a long way in extending your bags life and keeping up with hygiene.

                                                                      Additionally if you avoid too tight a fit you can pack leaves, pine bough, etc…in between bag an liner to increase protection due to being caught in unusual cold snaps outside your AO’s norm.

                                                                    • #90747
                                                                      SeanT
                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                        Fleece bag liners are awesome. I have 2 and they roll up to a little larger than a 48 oz Nalgene bottle. They are inexpensive enough and they make a good car blanket.

                                                                      • #90748
                                                                        First Sergeant
                                                                        Moderator

                                                                          I use a poncho liner instead of a fleece liner. For me it has more utility that a fleece liner.

                                                                          FILO
                                                                          Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                          Je ne regrette rien
                                                                          In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                        • #90749
                                                                          trailman
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            I’m a cold sleeper. On the patrol class I froze, hell on the Fof we did this fall I froze. The best thing I’ve done and its not always practical in a tactical sense is cover with a wool blanket. Scouts and re-enacting I found that :wacko: even a -40 mummy bag breathes whenever you move and kill that warm air pocket. And I move a lot when i sleep. By covering you help trap that air. I guess that’s where the bivey comes in in the MSS, it works ok for me but I find it still breathes.
                                                                            I use a klymit static V now for a pad and its worked very well. Less bulk that the thermarest.

                                                                          • #90750
                                                                            Thomas
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              I, too, prefer a poncho liner. Unless the temperature is 20 degrees or less, the poncho liner and gortex bevy bag work well for me.

                                                                              When I sleep in a sleeping bag, I get too comfortable and have difficulty getting out of the bag. For that reason alone, I have always slept cold.

                                                                            • #90751
                                                                              Groundwork
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Is the ECWCS level 5 issued in Coyote Tan? Seeing Gen 3 in Multi Cam only. Also, the sizing info only said layering had been taken into consideration. So, order your regular size?

                                                                                Also, any surplus store recommendations other than eBay?

                                                                              • #90752
                                                                                Mike Q
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  @Groundwork;
                                                                                  fortbraggsurplus.com – this is where I get most of my stuff. I order the same size I normally wear without layers and has worked fine for me so far.

                                                                                • #90753
                                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                    Here are a few I’ve used over the years.

                                                                                    https://colemans.com/
                                                                                    https://www.majorsurplus.com/
                                                                                    http://www.sportsmansguide.com/
                                                                                    http://www.keepshooting.com/
                                                                                    http://www.fortbraggsurplus.us/default.asp
                                                                                    http://www.maingun.biz/
                                                                                    http://store.oldgrouch.biz/

                                                                                    Don’t forget Flea Markets, thrift stores, and yard sales. This is particularly true if near a military base.

                                                                                  • #90754
                                                                                    trailman
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      I’ll third Ft Bragg if they have it in your size. Tough finding stuff for us little guys.

                                                                                      Joe
                                                                                      All those are good sites for surplus. I got a new MSS from Coleman at a good price.

                                                                                    • #90755
                                                                                      First Sergeant
                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                        Is the ECWCS level 5 issued in Coyote Tan? Seeing Gen 3 in Multi Cam only. Also, the sizing info only said layering had been taken into consideration. So, order your regular size?

                                                                                        Also, any surplus store recommendations other than eBay?

                                                                                        I am not going to say it doesn’t exist, but you may have a very tough time finding and affording it if you can find it.

                                                                                        All of the Army ECWCS is going to be in in either ACU or Multicam.

                                                                                        McGuire Army Navy is another one.
                                                                                        http://www.mcguirearmynavy.com

                                                                                        FILO
                                                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                      • #90756
                                                                                        trailman
                                                                                        Participant
                                                                                        • #90757
                                                                                          Corvette
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            Here is another thought. Fleece melts. Wool is king….but it is heavy.

                                                                                            The new fleece USGI is made with a nomex clone called Aramid which is supposed to be flame resistant.

                                                                                            One of my clients has a son who was burned 40% of his body by wearing fleece pants too close to a camp fire. She told me that there were lots of kids with similar issues at the burn center that she frequented with her son.

                                                                                            I am replacing my fleece with Aramid fleece.

                                                                                            http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/us-military-surplus-ecwcs-gen-4-level-3-fleece-liner-jacket-new?a=2081166

                                                                                          • #90758
                                                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                            Moderator

                                                                                              A little late for the yearly bump, but I suspect this coming HEAT 1 class may have some lessons learned.

                                                                                            • #90759
                                                                                              RotorHead
                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                Not a clothing issue, but a gear issue. We did some training in January, temperature at start was 7 degrees, but warmed up to a tropical 15 degrees. Everyone wore layers and core body temp’s were acceptable. The wrong socks and or boot combination caused one individual to have issues. Everyone had issues with gloves; either too bulky or hands became numb after 20-30 minutes. Head and face issues were no problem with most using a fleece beenie and scarf.

                                                                                                What did surprise us is that those with Lancer magazines had terrible problems with double feeds. There were 6 AR’s all would be considered top tier. The guns worked fine with any other magazine (USGI and Pmags). One AR with a magnesium lower ran the Lancers fine. We never could figure out the issue, other than the metal lip segments on the Lancers and the lowers had some sort of a different contraction factor in the cold.

                                                                                              • #90760
                                                                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                                  What did surprise us is that those with Lancer magazines had terrible problems with double feeds.

                                                                                                  Excellent example and there is no way to predict such problems without getting out there and proven your gear in all conditions for your AO.

                                                                                                  The exact causes of such problems are not really important; though nice to know, but imagine having such unknowns occur when it’s life and death.

                                                                                                • #90761
                                                                                                  Max
                                                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                                                    No probs running the live ranges with my lancer mags in that cold storm over New Year. Your lancer-fu must be weak. Or maybe because I run a Colt? Hmmm.

                                                                                                  • #90762
                                                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                      No probs running the live ranges with my lancer mags in that cold storm over New Year. Your lancer-fu must be weak. Or maybe because I run a Colt? Hmmm.

                                                                                                      Here’s another interesting and valid point.

                                                                                                      There are many variables at play in this example, the particular lot of Lancer magazines, number of rounds through those magazines, the ammunition used, to name just a few of these varibles.

                                                                                                      We certainly don’t have enough information to make a definitive answer and I really don’t want to get too involved in this Thread trying to figure it out.

                                                                                                      Suffice to say what works for one, may not for others, which is equally important when discussing gear or methods.

                                                                                                      I guarantee that some of my favorite gear and techniques will not work well for some people here.

                                                                                                      It’s just the way real world works. ;-)

                                                                                                    • #90763
                                                                                                      RotorHead
                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                        The four AR’s that had problems were a Colt, BCM, S&W and Bushmaster. We used 7 or 8 different Lancers and all demonstrated the same issue. The double feeds had to be cleared with tools, almost like a bolt override. We focused on ammo first, since several were running Russian steel, but we had the same problem with Winchester white box and PMC 223. All the magazines and all the various ammo ran in the magnesium lower AR without an issue.

                                                                                                        We finished the range time with Pmags with all the various different ammo and had no further issues. We never figured it out, but just made a head note. 3 of the 6 shooters regularly run Lancers and never had an issue before. The only variable was the 7 degree temp and the overnight cold soak of the gear in car trunks.

                                                                                                      • #90764
                                                                                                        Mike Q
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          RotorHead,
                                                                                                          I had the exact same problem on the exact same weekend. I was running Lancer mags but with steel cased ammo. I never tried running with just brass ammo though. I figured it was the steel cased ammo. It was the first time I’ve ever had problems with either the lancers or the steel cased ammo. I also run a BCM rifle. Now I have to wait for it to be 4 degrees again…

                                                                                                        • #90765
                                                                                                          Max
                                                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                                                            Wow. On the range with Scott. Read him this. I know exactly what characters we are referring to running this steel. The steel is the issue. How many fucking times does this need to be reiterated. I have heard all the BS excuses. Sme of you guys (I know mainly who) are so personally invested in trying to prove steel, you will blame anything else. Double feeds needing tools? Not a magazine issue, a steel case issue. Probably frozen in there or some such bullshit.

                                                                                                          • #90766
                                                                                                            Mike Q
                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                              Max,
                                                                                                              I already know the conversation you and Scott just had about this. I don’t even have to be there to know what was said… I can hear the words and see the head shaking in my head from 100 miles away.

                                                                                                            • #90767
                                                                                                              RotorHead
                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                I don’t run steel and so agree with Max on its usage, but this was occurring with brass as well. Winchester 55gr FMJ and PMC 223 in 55gr FMJ. It was almost as if a round came out of the magazine as the bolt extracted the fired case and then stripped a second round out. Getting the steel out was an adventure, but even the brass had to be worked at.

                                                                                                                None of the guns fired more than a few rounds without a jam, very frustrating and remains unresolved.

                                                                                                              • #90768
                                                                                                                First Sergeant
                                                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                                                  Did you happen to take pictures of this?

                                                                                                                  FILO
                                                                                                                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                                  Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                                • #90769
                                                                                                                  RotorHead
                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                    Unfortunately no, we got so caught up in this very unusual event that we went brain dead. I guess the cold weather effected more than our fingers. Several of the Lancer magazines were new (first time out), but several were field experienced. We could see no physical damage on them and we made sure we were getting good lock ups in the mag well. We slowed the pace of fire to see if that made a difference, it didn’t. All the shooters have multiple trips to MVT. It was serious enough for several to reconsider the Lancer as a go to mag, particularly since the PMags and GI ones ran just fine.

                                                                                                                    The toughest failures to clear were on the S&W and Bushmaster, but the BCM and Colt had a few that took a tool to clear. Once again it looked more like a bolt over-ride than a typical double feed. With the Lancers none of these guns could run a full magazine without several of these failures.

                                                                                                                  • #90770
                                                                                                                    Max
                                                                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                                                                      1) It’s not the Lancers. I have nothing personally invested in them, but I did use them that same storm weekend over new year without a hitch. I also used them for range demos in the snow this last weekend.

                                                                                                                      2) It is something else, probably a lot to do with steel ammo, maybe lube, something else we will not identify via this thread.

                                                                                                                      3) although you claim protection from shooters being ‘multiple trips to MVT’ without knowing exactly who you refer to, my assumption is that there has been a long delay since, and also they probably did not attend since HEAT / CTT included the depth of weapon manipulation training it does now. That, or not enough times and practised correctly in enough depth. Gotta be at minimum an annual event. Sitting on your laurels results in….well, the training situation we are discussing.

                                                                                                                      And of course, you persist in that one wild card who has steered you wrong on steel the whole time.

                                                                                                                    • #90771
                                                                                                                      RotorHead
                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                        Not offering any excuses and yes, we should be a MVT more often, but my 71 year old body can only take so much abuse (shot down twice; once in Nam and again in Lebanon plus an Arab AK-47 round. Hard to duck strapped in a seat.) Your lube statement maybe more on point than we thought at the time, but we did not consider that during the moment. Yes, rookie mistake and does show a lack of practical field work.

                                                                                                                        Not sure I understand the steel comment. I don’t use steel nor support its use. Only mentioned it as several of the shooters were using steel initially and we thought it might be the culprit.

                                                                                                                      • #125048
                                                                                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                        Moderator

                                                                                                                          Even though it’s still warm here in Florida, this is a good reminder for you further North!

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