SAW

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    • #102180
      Max
      Keymaster

        No doubt most of us fall into a category that does not include a budget to afford, as in one case I am aware of, $11,000.00 for an auto sear to convert an HI91 to full auto. Oh and the $200 fee as well.

        So, what kind of alternatives might be available to fill in for such a role? Will a semi-auto with a heavy barrel and drum mag be made to work effectively in such a role? Or are there any alternatives

      • #102181
        Yankee Terrier
        Participant

          title 2 firearms are difficult to find, a true gpmg or squad automatic weapon especially so. There are beltfed support weapons that are semi auto with crankfire adaptors and you can get a view of them at Belfed shooters.com

        • #102182
          Corvette
          Participant

            I’ve been thinking about this for a while.

            And my idea has always been this:

            – take a AR 15 rifle with a CHF barrel and a quality bolt and BCG.
            – Add bumpfire possibly one of those new internal bumbfire called taccon (or some such)
            -(this link has some hype but its the general idea) http://robarguns.com/blog/2013/11/20/taccon-3mr-trigger-system/
            – Add a Bipod
            – get some 100 rd Drum Mags

            = Field expedient SAW :yahoo:

            PS: maybe a pre SHTF heavy weapons section in a FREEFOR platoon can consist of a couple of these plus a 50 Cal weapon to turn cover into concealment (for urban ops) plussed up with a couple of riflemen as spotters/protectors/ammo carriers.

          • #102183
            John Langdon
            Participant

              The Taccon trigger is simply a response trigger that paintballers used to use all the time. I wondered when it would be applied to real firearms:

            • #102184
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                You can bumpfire relatively accurate with practice without accessories, that said the various gimmicks springs and stocks are not worth the money for anything other than plinking.

                Now there is room for Geissele’s various Triggers, I would stick with the ones made for combat use vice three gun types.

                Videos demonstrate rates of fire, you don’t need any faster.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvr0rSaFgZE

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhwRXgreESs

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhwRXgreESs

                They are two stage triggers with faster resets.

              • #102185
                Max
                Keymaster

                  Hey G.W.N.S.

                  Thanks for the heads up on the Geissele triggers. They are do to release a trigger for the Tavor. The stock trigger on the Tavor, well,… it does work. But it’s not fun, heavy, long, gritty takeup. The stock trigger reset is pretty good.

                  Joe

                • #102186
                  Max
                  Keymaster

                    Ares Defense makes a belt-fed AR upper.

                    http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/ares-defense/ares-defense-5-56mm-belt-fed-upper-16-25-nickel-boron-feed-mcr-035.html

                    It’s pricey at $3499.99 and no word on availability and price of spare barrels.

                    However, it seems to me, that as with regular old mag fed ARs, the biggest hurdle is the cost of feeding it. If you think you can burn through ammo quickly doing mag dumps, just wait until you start working with 200 rd. belts.

                    I believe there are other similar products out there.

                  • #102187
                    Max
                    Keymaster

                      We run a SAW at our shoots sometimes. Usually load/sell 25 and/or 50 rd belts. They do go pretty fast if the shooter just wants to dump a belt. OR you can get three or four short bursts(TRIGGER CONTROL) from a 25rd’r or six or eight bursts from a 50rd’r.

                    • #102188
                      Max
                      Keymaster

                        I should have added that it seems to me that full auto fire has a pretty specific time and place for its use. But what the heck do I know, I still prefer 20 round magazines in my semis and 25 in the squirt guns, heh, heh.

                      • #102189
                        Lloyd
                        Participant

                          I ask this question from the perspective of a long time shooter with NO mil experience, and very limited trigger time with full auto…

                          Is a squad machinegun as much psychological as anything else? I mean, most shots are going to miss the target, so isn’t the MG’s job primarily to suppress by putting many rounds (quickly) close to the bad guys? And if so, can equal suppression be achieved with accurate semi-auto fire?

                          An example of what I mean would be using “sharpshooters” in support, deployed similarly to a MG team.

                          MVT Texas 2015-2020
                          Team Coyote / Team Rekkr / Team Cowbell

                        • #102190
                          Corvette
                          Participant

                            I don’t believe “equal” suppression is possible when comparing the SAW to a semi auto rifle, but the question you might want to ask is, “Can I support (logistically and physically)a SAW (or a civilian equivalent) in the field?”, and “Is the amount of suppression I can provide with my semi auto acceptable from a ‘cover my buddy’s ass’ perspective?”. I believe that even though it’s not equal in rounds down range, enough rounds can be delivered by a semi auto to make the bad guys second guess any attempts they might want to make to gain target acquisition by sticking their heads out of cover. Tell me again how much weight your used to carrying in you Load bearing gear, and how much does the weapon weight that you normally carry? A SAW weighs 18 lbs empty, and the basic load I carried was 4-200 round drums (one in the gun, 3 on the LBE)Food for thought

                          • #102191
                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                            Moderator

                              I believe two men trained properly, working in concert as a team with AR’s and decent triggers can match a SAW’s performance.

                              Question is do you really need it?

                            • #102192
                              Corvette
                              Participant

                                Here is what I have built to suit that role:

                                That is a 150rnd ARMATAC SAW-MAG.
                                Advantages of a mag-fed over a belt fed(semi-auto):
                                If something goes wrong with the drum I can use mags.
                                If my gun goes down for some reason I can hand off the drum to the “new” SAW gunner.
                                Pretty much any AR with a bipod and drum or not can fill that position if you think you need it.
                                I think that fast and accurate fire is about as good as you can do without spending 25K.
                                FWIW

                              • #102193
                                Corvette
                                Participant

                                  Awesome!

                                  What kind of barrel is on it?
                                  What kind of trigger?

                                • #102194
                                  Corvette
                                  Participant

                                    It is a BCM standard 16″ mid-length. The trigger right now is an older(good one) RRA 2-stage tuned by John Holliger at WOA. Nothing special.

                                  • #102195
                                    Corvette
                                    Participant

                                      If you plan on putting out an extended, high rate of fire, you might want to get one of these. http://www.teludynetech.com/products/

                                    • #102196
                                      Max
                                      Keymaster
                                      • #102197
                                        Corvette
                                        Participant

                                          I have Geissele S3G triggers in all my ARs. It’s important to note that while not recommended they do fill the role I anticipate better than any other trigger.

                                        • #102198
                                          Max
                                          Keymaster

                                            I have Geissele S3G triggers in all my ARs.

                                            Depending on how many ARs you own, your trigger budget is bigger than my rifle budget!

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