S.L.A. Marshall: Men Against Fire (1): Combat Firing Percentages

View Latest Activity

Home Forums Tactics & Leadership Small Unit Tactics (HEAT 1) S.L.A. Marshall: Men Against Fire (1): Combat Firing Percentages

Viewing 29 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #95671
      Max
      Keymaster

        I have just begun SLA Marshall’s (SLAM) ‘Men Against Fire’ (MAF) I just completed John Keegan’s ‘Mask of Command’ (recommended to read) and no doubt MAF will be my next recommendation.

        I was struck by some points in the introduction. Many of you have heard about SLAM’s declarations on firing rates in combat, quotes as low as 15%, and the controversy over his research and the truthfulness of what he reported. I have some thoughts on that. First, from the introduction:

        “Marshall championed the fighting man, emphasized the fundamental importance of teamwork to combat success, and suggested that training be designed to reflect the realities of war. This last objective dominated all others in the work. Marshall accurately identified disparities between combat as portrayed during preparatory training and the actual experience of combat. Training depicted a battlefield full of comrades advancing together against easily identified adversaries. The actuality was quite different. An infantryman attacking with his unit was suddenly alone when he dropped to the ground in the face of incoming fire. The enemy, no more willing to be shot than was his opponent, was rarely see, only fleetingly if spotted at all. Marshall recognized that the soldier was not less a social animal in war than he had been in civilian life. He emphasized that effective leaders must understand their men’s needs for comradeship and cohesion. This Marshall translated into a call for aggressive and persistent communication under fire by all involved. Above all, Marshall perceived that men were willing to fight if properly led……which is solved by leaders who understand the substance of their fighters and train them accordingly.”

        Does any of this seem familiar to those of you who have trained at MVT? Granted, training methods all around have come on a long way (more on firing ratios in a bit):

        1) At MVT we harp on observation, communication, and situational awareness. ‘Get your head out of your weapon.”

        2) We focus on taking cover and realistic use of terrain in combat.

        3) We use pop-up / realistic targets which look realistic and ensure that students have to observe, communicate, aim, shoot and hit.

        3) We focus on the team and communication on top of individual skills.

        4) We run force on force where you have to work as a team and actually have to aim your personal weapon at others and pull the trigger.

        5) None of this is trained at all with cool-guy tacticool stuff on the square range. The ‘industry standard’ of cool-guy tactical training is sadly lacking.

        SLAMs Ratio of Fire:

        The introduction goes on to explain that the poor ratios of fire that SLAM claimed were simply made up (not fully based on research), and that many have used this to question everything he wrote. There is no doubt an internet industry discussing this, but the introduction makes the point that SLAM put out the 15% ration of fires to non firers in combat simply to make the point. I agree that this does not diminish the point he was making, and that the subsequent changes to infantry training since 1947 have been beneficial to ratios of firing versus non-firing in combat. Thus, we do what MVT does with pop-up realistic targets and force on force training.

        Because there is an issue of non-firing in combat, and increasingly more realistic infantry training methods have reduced that. There is definitely a freeze response; there are in fact two freezes, which we talk about when training break contact drills; the initial freeze when you come under fire, which the RTR drill is designed to get you to cover by operant conditioning. The second freeze happens when you are ‘safe’ in cover and do not want to move – the drills we teach you are designed to get you rolling – the idea being that you begin to do it on auto-pilot, despite the fear, and before you know it you are hopefully out of contact, terrified, but hopefully alive. That is why we do what we do.

        This point was raised, and this post began in my mind, when I read later in the introduction, to do with the ratios for fire:

        “In Korea, these leaders watched their man to ensure they engaged the adversary; in Vietnam they listened for the steady roar that assured them their men unhesitatingly were firing their weapons.”

        In my own observation, other than people who are in a freeze, nowadays the majority do use their weapons. But here is the problem. It has almost gone the other way. The video game generation young soldier has no problem blasting away at the hillside, but marksmanship standards are so low and so little effort is actually made to aim at the enemy, that what is happening in a lot of cases is simply blasting away ineffectively at the enemy. It is often hard to observe the enemy and direct fire at their actual positions. You have to locate and identify the enemy and then make an actual real effort to aim, apply fire, and hit. Or walk the gun on, or whatever. Perhaps the issue is also one of current support available, when infantry can fire ineffectively at the hillside for a bit, make no attempt to maneuver, and then CAS slams a bomb into it – who needs effective rifle fire in that situation? Try doing that when you don’t have that support or it is not available (dismounted British Army!) or as a paramilitary contractor when you have to rely on organic small arms firepower to get yourself out of the shit. This relates across to us as armed citizens.

        I wrote about the reality of suppression, that most misunderstood thing, in this post:

        The Maneuver Support Group (Designated Marksman Role).

      • #95672
        Max
        Keymaster

          Wow. Wow. Wow.

          I am reading this book and I have never read it before. I have decided that I will not copy passages to create posts, but simply urge you to read it. Why?

          The book was written in 1947 and clearly much has moved on in training since then. However, I find every part of this book reinforced exactly everything that we do on MVT Training classes. in fact, much of what he raises, and what we encourage as a solution, occur on Force on Force Team tactics Classes, and also on the live fire classes.

          I don’t care if his exact methodology on his ratios of fire was not exact.

          I wasn’t going to post anything until I had completed his book. However, reading his points on verbal communication during combat I was working up to say something about my opinion on this ‘false calm’ that I see promoted all the time. I consider this absolute bullshit and anathema to what is needed in combat, which is a sense of urgency and clear yelling of communication to affect action. But the thought out there is that everyone wants to be a ‘cool guy’ and ‘chill.’ It fucking pisses me off. Often, the ‘strong silent type’ is just an empty vessel, and not an effective leader in combat.

          And then, I am precipitated to write here, after reading the words:

          “At any stage of the battle, whether troops are attacking or defending, warmth in the giving of an order is more to be desired than studied self-containment. Too much has been said in praise of the calm demeanor as an asset in a fighting commander. That may have its place at the higher level. At the lower levels men do not fight calmly and they are not reassured by commander’s affecting the manner of an undertaker or the dead pan of a poker player.”

          Well fuck you SLAM, you are a genius. Well done. And I get criticized by non-combat veterans for yelling the shit out of people on the live objective in training. Because it is needed. I fucking know that.

          Be cool. Be chill. You will not communicate in combat, you will not create fire and movement, you will not seize the initiative, you will not act with an aggressive sense of urgency. If you want to be effective in small team combat, you have to break to bonds that culture has placed on you. You need to be thinking, nasty, aggressive maniac. Go to it.

          Read the book.

          BFYTW.

        • #95673
          JohnnyMac
          Participant

            Would it be fair to say, a leader “affecting the manner of an undertaker or the dead pan of a poker player” creates a sort of vacuum? That either leaves the team members to their own emotions/inner monologues, or it gets filled by a team member with a stronger personality. In either case, it’s not good for the team.

            One of the biggest unexpected lessons from CLC was how little I actually understood how much goes into good communication. Communication goes much more beyond just content; to include timing, tone, conciseness, “force”, accuracy, etc.

            It sounds easy on paper, but it’s not. You won’t actually see real gaps in your communication skills until you’re in contact (UTM or live). It’s easy to go home and practice weapon manipulation, marksmanship, RTR drills, etc. It’s a bit harder to practice communication under pressure.

            Some of you from the recent CQBC will remember my error, yelling “put your hands up if you’re alive! I mean, dead!” so that I didn’t continue to shoot them. We had a good laugh afterwards.

          • #95674
            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
            Moderator

              Read the book.

              When someone with experience recommends a course of action, you would be wise to actually take it literally.

              Besides local sources, including used book stores, here are some options to act on Max’s advice to “Read the book.”

              The quickest option would be Men Against Fire: The Problem of Battle Command in Future War Kindle Edition $2.99, this is the 1961 updated edition. I have never compared this with the original so I do not know how much was changed.

              I agree with Max’s summary of the controversy regarding S. L. A. “Slam” Marshall’S work.

            • #95675
              JohnnyMac
              Participant

                Mask of Command is on its way and Men Against Fire is in my kindle.

                I read a lot so it might be a little while before I get to them through my queue.

              • #95676
                wheelsee
                Participant

                  I’m amazed at the number of people who perceive shouting/yelling as “uncontrolled.” It tells me of the things they’ve NOT done.

                  I’ve never been on a car-wreck scene requiring the Jaws that was quiet.

                  I’ve never been on a house fire where it was quiet.

                  I’ve never been on an LPG fire where it was quiet.

                  I’ve never been on a rescue scene requiring heavy equipment to be quiet.

                  And I dang sure haven’t done a hot load or unload on a helo, with 2 turbines screaming 4′ away from me that was quiet.

                  In all the above, screaming took place…..not because of uncontrolled fear but because communication had to take place to get a job done.

                  NONE of the above were “up for discussion.” Captain says move the nozzle/hose, I moved the nozzle/hose. We didn’t discuss. I grab you at the rear of the helo, you resist at your own peril of a tail rotor. It’s the field we chose and screaming directions and being screamed at was the norm……violate it at your own peril….(yes, radios have made a difference, but mainly for long-distance comms)

                • #95677
                  Max
                  Keymaster

                    But, but, yelling isn’t cool! Chill out man!

                    There is another thing you see – soldiers trying to yell but they do it in a manly low voice that sounds manly, when yelling to be effective needs to be pitched higher.

                  • #95678
                    Thomas
                    Participant

                      Max wrote: You need to be thinking, nasty, aggressive maniac. Go to it.

                      The thinking, nasty, aggressive maniac is calm. Calm does not mean lay back, eat some cheese, drink some wine, catch some rays. It means lead and try to maintain a level head. Be that maniac that is driving your soldiers to fight, to engage the enemy and stay in the fight.

                      Leaders must stay level headed. The situation requires the leader to shout, to move around, and to encourage his soldiers as much as possible in the fight. Level headedness and a demeanor of personal control give soldiers confidence.

                      Panic inspires fear. Too many leaders panic and lose control of themselves and the situation. Their soldiers know the guy is crapping himself. Shouting direction, showing energy, and showing courage is required of the leader.

                      As an example, the SGT that got cut off when his LT ran after the Viet Cong in A Soldier Once and Young, remained under control. His situation was dire but he was not panicked. His head was in the fight. Was he calm? I don’t know. But he was not chill.

                      Warfare requires ruthless aggression and violent execution. SLAM wrote extensively about that. So, in control of one’s self and of the situation, yes. Calm from the standpoint of level headed and leading, yes. Calm as in cool guy, no.

                      I am struggling with the terminology a bit.

                    • #95679
                      wheelsee
                      Participant

                        @Max

                        Good point, with the low frequencies of heavy equipment (I wonder what the frequency of gunfire is??) verbal will have to be higher freqs to be heard.

                      • #95680
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          I saw it in my email. Might be in spam. Joe knows how to fix that, but not matter you posted it anyway.

                          Here is the thing. A leader, in combat, has to *spark*. He has to make an estimate and develop a clear plan of action on imperfect information. He has to act with a clear sense of urgency.

                          Now yes, we are getting a little wrapped around our definitions. Thus this is cool headed, but not ‘cool’ or ‘chill’ in the modern sense. Not laid back at all. He has to drive events forward to the execution.

                          If he is having a face to face, he does not need to yell, just be clear. Yelling is to communicate desired action in the heat of combat.

                          So yes, not out of control, but aggressive and driving.

                          SLAM talks about this, and the need for clear voice even to get people to fire weapons and break the freeze.

                          There ia something I want to cover on running bit will do so not on my phone tomorrow.

                          :good:

                        • #95681
                          Thomas
                          Participant

                            Yes, don’t know what happened with the post.

                            We are on the same path. The terminology is in the way.

                            People miss the point about the sound of combat. Just talking over the sound of a 7.62MM machine gun is hard. Trying to get people moving, whether in trail or or on line, is its own challenge. The challenge is compounded when shooters get their heads into the gun.

                            This is a good discussion. I hope that we can carry it on a bit.

                          • #95682
                            Max
                            Keymaster

                              Agreed. We can simulate aspects in live fire and UTM training. We can prepare people as best we can. But only if they train. Train like they mean it. Like a hobby. TacGun?

                            • #95683
                              Sam Brady
                              Participant

                                Huge difference between yelling, screaming and a loud command voice. A leaders battle voice has to be heard, like a coach, a police,an or a firefighter. As Max knows, keeping a level head is not easy. I was as lost as a third string quarterback in the NFL for a period of time as a platoon leader in Vietnam. After a bit it came into focus. 2 months or so I began to feel self confident. Solid training like Max provides is the key.

                              • #95684
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  This is a good discussion, Thomas and Sam are most welcome. Sam as a Ranger platoon leader in Vietnam. Excellent.
                                  We are wrapping up a little in terminology. Yelling, loud command voice, screaming etc.

                                  I think what we are getting at is that there is a time and a place for volime of clearly communicated command / direction. Different from hysterical screaming.

                                  What SLAM is saying and I agree with is that the Hollywood cool of fiction is either not real, or if so, not effective. I hope I am making sense?

                                  We used the term ‘sense of urgency.’ You have to act under fire, right or wrong, and push it along with a clear sense of direction. You have to verbally communicate, everyone does. Volume will be a function of noise and distance. SLAM puts it perfectly describing when everyone goes to ground and is suddenly alone, and not communicating. Anyone recognize this from class? Force on Force?

                                • #95685
                                  Thomas
                                  Participant

                                    Yes, command voice. It takes time to develop that voice and to learn to use it. I scare the crap out of my seven year old when I let go with that voice.

                                  • #95686
                                    Thomas
                                    Participant

                                      Max, what you describe about going to ground and suddenly being alone is the situation that led to (then) CPT Carpenter calling a napalm strike on his own position in Vietnam.

                                      The sense of urgency that you cite is required in all soldiers. It begins with the phrase “move with a purpose” and the sense of urgency explained as soldiers start to understand the business of the infantry. Lethargy is deadly.

                                    • #95687
                                      First Sergeant
                                      Moderator

                                        Command voice and command presence is absolutely vital. Without it a unit, no matter the size, runs the risk of being completely ineffective.

                                        This is tied to the post I just made in the CASEVAC thread. The platoon that the squad came from was rendered almost ineffective until my platoon showed up. Why? The PL was with the squad that got hit. Their PSG basically shut down and did nothing. When my platoon showed up, My PL and I took over running the rest of that platoon until the contact was over. Once they had leadership, they did what they were supposed to. Until then, they just hunkered down and returned fire.

                                        That PSG was the typical loudmouth SOB that talked about how much of a baddass he was. When it came down to it, he was a fucking coward. His platoon payed for it.

                                        And before anyone ask, no, nothing was done to him. The BC and the CSM swept it under the rug.

                                        FILO
                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                      • #95688
                                        Max
                                        Keymaster

                                          The other thing I wnated to add was also covered by SLAM, and that was the effect of running to the rear when those around do not know why you are doing it. Can cause a rout / panic.

                                          I learned this lesson in training on the Infantry Platoon Commanders Battle Course. I had some sort of command appointment, probably platoon commander, in an urban battle exercise. I was running back from a forward building to a a more rear building. I have no memory as to why, but no doubt it was due to liaison / communication.

                                          I was stopped by the Chief Instructor. he was quietly tucked away in a doorway. He was an SAS guy. He warned me of this, brought up the subject. I never forgot the lesson. I think all of use have lessons in training from guys like that. John talks about the Delta CO who pulled him up short in a trench clearing exercise for using the T, and told him to use the use the Power-I. John always talks about that on CQBC, he never forgot the lesson from a mentor.

                                          So any movement by a leader needs to be, if possible considered. And no headlong sprints to the rear unless everyone knows what is going on! Also, for your own safety, if you are moving to a point of observation, do so in short rushes and try to to make it obvious that you are the leader. There is some statistic from WWII about the majority pf platoon leaders killed by bullets to the head, or some such. From observing and trying to assess the battle.

                                          Now I recall, there is a video that shows just that thing, from Helmand, which I will try and search for, with a young marine officer. No promises that I can find it.

                                        • #95689
                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                          Moderator

                                            …the effect of running to the rear when those around do not know why you are doing it. Can cause a rout / panic.

                                            Outstanding point!

                                            How a leaders actions can be interpreted by those under high stress is very important and not always apparent to a new leader without proper training.

                                            Everyone needs to burn this lesson into their memory. :good:

                                          • #95690
                                            Max
                                            Keymaster

                                              This video. Lots in it:

                                            • #95691
                                              JohnnyMac
                                              Participant

                                                But, but, yelling isn’t cool! Chill out man!

                                                A video just came out from BCM, spotlighting a sponsored training company w/ instructors and students doing CQB, where it’s literally f-ing silent, even after shots have been fired. There are other shenanigans. I had to stop watching after a minute or two, despite the trainers actually having BTDT. Oh yeah, THEY ONLY TEACH FoF TO MIL/LE (lame! but good for MVT)

                                                One, this emphatically illustrates your point.

                                                Two, social media comments on the video have been like: :heart: :rose: Reflecting on that for a minute, by getting in league with BCM, they’ve gained incredible marketing outreach. Combine that with professional video/editing/fancy training buildings/gucci gear and you have a perfect recipe for attracting tactikoolaid drinkers. Maybe MVT can partner with Colt?

                                              • #95692
                                                Roadkill
                                                Participant

                                                  During high stress of anything, during an adrenaline dump many things happen regarding our physiology. The point being made here is auditory exclusion. I remember one of my first fires, my officer gave me an order that I never heard. He an old crusty vet, me probationary firefighter. Him super calm, me running like my pants are on fire. After action he called me on it, and I said I never heard you.
                                                  You have to be loud to break through auditory exclusion, the higher the threat level, or the perceived level of interpersonal conflict, the louder you need to be.
                                                  Think of deer hunting. When you shoot a deer with your firearm there’s enough adrenaline dump to shut your ears off to protect them from loud noise. At the range with no adrenaline your ears would be ringing firing same firearm. This is no where near as bad auditory exclusion as you would get during a life and death situation.
                                                  And then we have tunnel vision….

                                                • #95693
                                                  wheelsee
                                                  Participant

                                                    During high stress of anything, during an adrenaline dump many things happen regarding our physiology. The point being made here is auditory exclusion. I remember one of my first fires, my officer gave me an order that I never heard. He an old crusty vet, me probationary firefighter. Him super calm, me running like my pants are on fire. After action he called me on it, and I said I never heard you.
                                                    You have to be loud to break through auditory exclusion, the higher the threat level, or the perceived level of interpersonal conflict, the louder you need to be.

                                                    And then we have tunnel vision….

                                                    From a seminar in the late 1990s

                                                    Perceptual Distortions (Artwohl & Christensen, Deadly Force Encounters)

                                                    Sounds
                                                    85% diminished
                                                    16% intensified

                                                    Vision
                                                    80% tunnel
                                                    72% heightened visual clarity

                                                    Time
                                                    65% slow motion
                                                    16% fast motion
                                                    7% temporary paralysis

                                                    Memory
                                                    51% loss for parts of the event
                                                    47% loss for some of your actions

                                                  • #95694
                                                    Roadkill
                                                    Participant

                                                      True wheelsee. You can over come that somewhat through stress inoculation training, similar to what is run at MVT. I remember toward the end of my career I had become that old grizzly veteran to whom not much got me rattled, but I knew what my young guys were going through and led them appropriately.

                                                    • #95695
                                                      BrigandActual
                                                      Participant

                                                        But, but, yelling isn’t cool! Chill out man!

                                                        A video just came out from BCM, spotlighting a sponsored training company w/ instructors and students doing CQB, where it’s literally f-ing silent, even after shots have been fired. There are other shenanigans. I had to stop watching after a minute or two, despite the trainers actually having BTDT. Oh yeah, THEY ONLY TEACH FoF TO MIL/LE (lame! but good for MVT)

                                                        One, this emphatically illustrates your point.

                                                        Two, social media comments on the video have been like: :heart: :rose: Reflecting on that for a minute, by getting in league with BCM, they’ve gained incredible marketing outreach. Combine that with professional video/editing/fancy training buildings/gucci gear and you have a perfect recipe for attracting tactikoolaid drinkers. Maybe MVT can partner with Colt?

                                                        They know their audience. I’ll admit that I use a lot of BCM equipment because of its quality and value. I’ll also admit that I first learned about BCM from reading discussions from guys who do a lot classes with well known trainers.

                                                        Since, as you pointed out, the celebrity trainers don’t do FoF or SUT in their courses, the average training junkie bouts gear just based on the stud they see in class. They respond to it, and eat it up. That’s why marketing videos like this end up coming around.

                                                        It doesn’t mean I’ll stop using BCM. They make good gear, but I also shrug at their ad campaigns.

                                                      • #95696
                                                        Roadkill
                                                        Participant

                                                          Just to be clear, grizzled old veteran firefighter not combat veteran.

                                                        • #95697
                                                          BrothersKeeper
                                                          Participant

                                                            I second everything Johnny Mac said. Of course I agree with everything our God King Harbinger of death Max teaches us. That video Max shared is gold. So many things I noticed in the video which are part of the MVT curriculum. The mission brief really hit home. Max rightly slammed me for my lackluster demeanor, inspiration and specificity during my mission brief at CLC. I did my best to correct some of those mistakes during the mission practice run. The actual mission turned out a little different. I am navigationaly challenged and that affected my picture of the battlefield. I could have worked through that but I spread my squad out too far. I was moving back and fourth between teams screaming my head off. I was loosing squad cohesion. Just the physical effort of projecting my voice to get my teams to comprehend what I was saying was very draining, let alone all the running I was doing to maintain a picture of the battle. I’m sure I would have been killed earlier if it was real rounds being used. I was moving too much. Everything said about appropriate yelling, choosing a course of action and executing that plan with purpose and momentum, maintaining situational awareness and so much more . . . MVT is spot on. I’m not sure if I will survive if real bullets start flying, but at least I will have a chance now. This thread is really good. It encapsulates many of the core fundamentals that MVT is all about.

                                                            Land Nav - 08/15
                                                            Combat Team Tactics -
                                                            Combat Patrol - 10/15
                                                            Combat Leadership - 09/17
                                                            Alumni Weekend - 07/18

                                                          • #95698
                                                            JohnnyMac
                                                            Participant

                                                              In Chapter 4 he talks about isolation of the individual and the clash between the soldier’s expectations of combat vs reality.

                                                              I think there’s something to be said for the training at MVT being small team based. We never experience the huge mass of power that he speaks of- from the beginning we’re operating under the assumption that “no one is coming”. I think this would significantly negate some of the effects he’s talking about

                                                              FoF and CLC give us great exposure to individual isolation. I think there’s really two situations, both stemming from a lack of communication:

                                                              1) Individual isolation when individuals are overwhelmed due to focusing all their attention on basic skills, the enemy, etc

                                                              2) Individual Isolation when key unit members are killed (link men/squad leader) OR beyond the individual to when fire teams are too spread out to effectively communicate.

                                                              In the first situation, this is caused by a lack of individual rifleman skills. When people are focused on their marksmanship, for example, they lose sight of the bigger picture. This is relatively easy to remedy with basic training.

                                                              The second situation, can in part be caused by the first. If the individual is focused on marksmanship for example, they aren’t thinking about cover. If they aren’t thinking about cover, they quickly find themselves dead, precipitating situation 2. Or, taking it a step further, they are so focused on cover (and maybe locating the enemy) that they fail to respond to the calls of their teammate or get their guns in the fight, bringing accurate fire against the enemy. This situation would also precipitate situation 2.

                                                              The second situation is pretty interesting though. Calling out to your leader or teammate and not getting any reply throws an individual, and possibly the unit, into chaos. The feeling you experience when this is happening is hard to describe, and I don’t think I’ve experienced it in regular life before or since. Are they alive and just stuck in their gun or stuck behind cover? Sometimes it can take a bit to figure out what’s happening and for someone to take control, if it’s not planned prior (the power of mission planning anyone?). During that time, chances are your team is getting rolled up…everyone dies.

                                                              Beyond the individual, we commonly see fireteams isolated when they move beyond line of sight of each other. Without a lot of experience/rehearsal or strong use of radios, they essentially become independent of each other, two units with half the combat power. At least from FoF training, their individual survival boils down to whether worse mistakes are made by OPFOR (flank security? ineffective fire?) or somehow reconnecting with the other fireteam (through a runner or when the other fireteam comes into contact, ie “running towards gunfire”).

                                                              There’s more to this, but I just wanted to share some quick thoughts and hopefully generate some discussion.

                                                              Am I off base?

                                                            • #95699
                                                              Max
                                                              Keymaster

                                                                @Johnnymac: not off base at all. Good observations.

                                                                I feel the forum went quiet lately. Maybe we are missing some who had problems signing back up (or would not follow the simple instructions?) I am happy to see you jump in with some observations and feedback.

                                                                But what you have noted is only possible due to the training you have done. I cannot emphasize enough that competence will only come in these things if you get out and train. This is why we do that progression that we do at MVT. Lurking on the forum will not cut it. Ask questions, develop your knowledge, and put it into practice by training. It is a constant feedback loop of knowledge, training, clarification, understanding, experience.

                                                                Once the guys go to ground in FoF, we see all these problems, lack of communication. Some are just out of RAM focusing on the very basics that should be squared way through training. That is why FoF is priceless.

                                                                Tango will remember the problem he had with his team that one time. It was not that they had gone to ground and could not hear – they just would not listen. Listen to commands to execute basic drills learned live fire on CTT, such as peep out to the right. They were frozen, and that was during FoF!

                                                              • #95700
                                                                Mike H
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Just finished this book…I am amazed a book written 70 years ago is very relevant today. Marshall even hits on the tech advances between the two world wars hampering communications between individuals. Today’s world has even less verbal communications between spouses, friends, neighbors, and co_workers due to social media. I see the challenges in a stressful tactical situation with all heck raining down and going to ground. Marshall points to “the tactical values of person to person communications on the battlefield”. Another quote…”speech is as vital a part of combat as is fire”.

                                                                  I wholeheartedly recommend this book. Excellent read..with plenty of battle examples to go along with his dialog.

                                                                  Now back to Mask of Command…I”m bogged down with Alexander….

                                                              Viewing 29 reply threads
                                                              • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.