Practicing Positive Target Identification (PID)

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Home Forums Tactics & Leadership CQB and Urban Operations Practicing Positive Target Identification (PID)

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    • #96124
      JohnnyMac
      Participant

        One of the things that stick out to me after taking the CQB course is the need for practicing rapid PID. During the course we saw completely missed targets, shooting of unarmed targets, etc. As the course went on, we all got better at it, but especially at close range- we should be able to do it right, every time, with lightning speed. At least in my mind, PID is the most important and least trained skills.

        With that said, I’m trying to figure out the best way to work on that and wanted to see if anyone has any good recommendations.

        A few ideas I had:
        -static threat/nonthreat targets set up by the wife around the house
        -projector connected to laptop, run by the wife
        -working with training partner, swapping as opfor and acting different scenarios

      • #96125
        wildbill
        Participant

          @JohnnyMac that got me to thinking about downloading/saving pictures of different threat targets and setting them up on the computer as a random sorting slide show and increasing the speed as PID increases.

        • #96126
          SeanT
          Keymaster

            I will agree for sure. On one of our iterations I came in behind the bad guys and got them and just kept right on going to the good guys because I saw ‘armed’ and space caked on who it was. That was a bad feeling. All the multicam/gear/PPE made it really hard for positive ID. Not an excuse, it clearly was a failure on me to SLOW down enough to make the PID.
            I think John wanted to shoot ME after that FUBAR.

          • #96127
            Brushpopper
            Participant

              I have not taken the CQB course yet and I don’t know that this will be of any help since I have no frame of reference. But I ran across these the other night and was reminded of it when I read this thread. These are positive ID target drills and targets, Links are below.
              http://www.optactical.com/demahashde.html
              http://www.optactical.com/refaiqta.html
              :unsure:

            • #96128
              hellokitty
              Participant

                I was taught by a very respected trainer who served with Delta to practice threat identification. His technique was: Whole person, hands, waist. He views everyone he sees this way. It is a rapid scan that if practiced is extremely fast on target descrimination. He looks at whole body, which means is it a police officer, your wife, young man with tattoos, etc. Next is both hands, this is where weapons are at. But don’t just look at hands because it could be a police officer, go back to first scan. Next is waist. You can usually tell if someone is armed even concealed.

                He does this as a mantra. Whole body, hands, waist. The way you practice this is every time your in public do this with every person you see. You will get lots of practice in a Walmart parking lot.

                If you get real fast doing this it will aid you in CQB and making shoot/no shoot decisions. This also serves as a way to be aware of your environment looking for threats.

                HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                FOF X3
                OPFOR X2
                CLC X2
                RIFLEMAN

              • #96129
                zeerf
                Participant

                  Great input @hellokitty I have done some of this without thinking of it but admit I typically am not scanning waist.

                  @Johnnymac I like some of the thoughts you posted and may give some of these a try as well. I have used TV shows/movies with dry firing as practice but not sure how “good” of an option this is. I obviously would use a show or movie I have not seen and say anyone that draws a weapon or a specific weapon thing/characters in the show.

                • #96130
                  Mike
                  Participant

                    Actiontarget.com sells photo realistic paper targets along with stick on photos for the hands so you can change them out between runs.

                  • #96131
                    Sam Brady
                    Participant

                      There are several ways to increase your ability to discriminate in training and when “down range” in real life.
                      First off in training with targets that have pistols, etc on them. Your brain very quickly identifies the paper face, clothing etc. When you continue to use the same targets the shooter tends to shoot quicker but he or she does not really totally identify the target as hostile. If you simply cut the gun off a shoot target and place it on a no shoot target you can see the difference. I used to do this all the time, sometimes adding a badge on the waist or chest to indicate a police officer. I always cut guns off gun magazines, etc to change the targets up.
                      During the recent CQB training all suspects in the rooms were hostile. One thing that can be done is to have some of the students in the room be unarmed with hands up-this forces target discrimination.
                      When down range on the street, you need to be scanning actively all the time. First clue, does the person of interest look in or out of “place.”
                      If so why? What are they doing? Is it normal or out of place?
                      Is the person closing the distance towards you in a rapid manner? Are they attempting to talk and get into your personal space? Why?
                      Scan the hands, scan the waist and scan the man-repeat. For example, do you normally approach someone with one or both hands in your pockets or close to the waist? Do you normally have a hoodie up when you engage a stranger?
                      A long time ago, as a young 2LT, my platoon sergeant told me that I needed to pay attention to “upcomings….” I asked what the hell an “upcoming” is….he said, “Sir, things that come up!” Meaning things that dont look normal should get your attention.
                      No man is immune to being surprised, but you can certainly work on your ability to detect upcomings!

                    • #96132
                      Max
                      Keymaster

                        This is all good stuff. You have to remember that training is a progression. During live fire classes enemy is Ivan, and we are learning basics, and how not to shoot each other. Once we get up to force on force, both woodland and CQB, we start to get blue on blue. Although you had hostage scenarios in the CQBC, we are still limited in time to train the basics of CQB. For this reason, if we can build a base of CQBC graduates, we will look to a CQBC2, where we can move on to more complex training. This is another incentive for alumni to recruit others. I put up a post about this. We have a very active alumni base, but new students have dropped to a trickle due to the election. Recruit, send, bring and we broaden the base of the triangle and can reach new heights for classes. We are not going to put on a CQBC2 if we can’t even get a decent number for CTT in July, for example. CTT is old hat now, apparently?

                        This clearly shows the progression of MVT training, from being able to run your gun at a basic level, to not shooting your buddies with live fire safety, et al.

                        I have noticed that with UTM, often the basic safety angles go out the window immediately, guys firing past each other etc. I also noticed the unacceptable levels of fratricide. Even guys killing other guys in the same team breaking contact next to them and bounding back. Literally on the other side of a fallen tree/brush and BOOM dead friendly.

                        So in Idaho I put in a new rule. Any shots on cadre (‘bystanders’) and your own team will result in the offender sitting out the whole of the rest of the scenario. Time out! Lo and behold, only one blue on blue, and no casualties from it.

                      • #96133
                        wheelsee
                        Participant

                          So in Idaho I put in a new rule. Any shots on cadre (‘bystanders’) and your own team will result in the offender sitting out the whole of the rest of the scenario. Time out! Lo and behold, only one blue on blue, and no casualties from it.

                          One of the biggest lessons I learned at CRS/CTT was – slow and DELIBERATE. Speed would come but keep things DELIBERATE.

                          Paraphrasing Max (IIRC) was keeping my head in the game…..

                        • #96134
                          Sam Brady
                          Participant

                            Max is correct as usual. Shooters that are new to force on force and CQB tend to move either to fast or slow and indecisively. Experience makes the difference. You can’t put too many variables in basic courses. Learning how and where to move and to trust your team mates is a full plate!
                            CQB is initiative based, strong operators with knowledge of the tactics and the confidence in each other is the key.

                          • #96135
                            JohnnyMac
                            Participant

                              I spent some time on the range with a fellow CLC alum. We did a bunch of drills that required PID while pieing corners.

                              It’s much easier to be cognizant of your speed when bullets are only flying one way.

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