Post Event: Identifying Good guys to avoid Conflict.

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    • #124128
      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
      Moderator

        JC asked in Max’s Thread Tactical Questions

        Of course you have built a IPB for your area. ;-)

        …any suggestions on how to deescalate a chance encounter and minimize the risk of an inadvertent firefight?

        If you are referring to a contact where both sides have seen each other but there is no shooting, then that will be situation dependent and reference your historical knowledge of the situation at that time.

        Consider the following…

        An “Event” has occured that you believe requires a recon patrol of your area.

        You consult your IPB to identify the owners/occupants of the path your patrol will be taken as well as alternative routes.

        Fortunately as soon as Event began you made contact with immediate neighbors to ascertain their status and gather new information for analysis.

        Preferably your initial patrols will be to make further contact with owners/occupants again to gain information and hopefully permission to cross their property. Let’s face it most people are not going to be thrilled at the idea of people “they do not know” crossing their property in armed groups.

        So you have just crossed into the outer perimeter of your personal knowledge, and you bump into another group. Even though you don’t know land owner personally your IPB says the owners name is “John Smith” by calling out that name it may provide the pause to make your case from safety. Even if a shot from them has been fired, hopefully without injury.I

        Ideally the last neighbor you know will provide an introduction to the unknown to you neighbor.

        See why the IPB is so important as well as knowing your neighbors and community. Not to mention being known or having someone in your group that is known to your community.

        Lastly having sufficient fieldcraft to help ensure you see them before they see you, so you can decide when and where to begin communication.

        Thoughts and questions?

      • #124131
        Max
        Keymaster

          :good:

          Never underestimate Intel!

          A friend of mine had his patrol out on the ground when we were in Afghan after 9/11. It was night and they came under sustained fire as they moved near a compound. He won a medal because he told everyone to NOT FIRE. They took cover in a wadi. The compound Afghans had detected them and thought they were a threat. They were just defending their home.

        • #124256
          Anonymous
          Inactive

            One shorthand way to identify friendly forces during an immediate breakdown in authority has historically been armbands – pick a color, you and your buddies know your GTG.

            Some armed groups have even integrated them into their uniforms, particularly in Latin America where guerrillas frequently use the same uniforms as the state armies they fight against.

          • #124335
            JC
            Participant

              Thanks for the input guys.

              I totally concur that intimate knowledge of your AO is essential. In our corner of a very rural county, we are known to the local family’s that have literally been here for centuries. Thru that network we are also able to keep tabs on newer families, as well as some of the more transient residents in the area. (We ourselves are relatively new, and the 1st thing we did (after we bought the land, but before we built) was to introduce ourselves to the old families, to start building a relationship and demonstrate we are trustworthy).

              And yes – one of the 1st actions after an event is to make contact with our neighbors to check on them, assure them we are there to assist, gather information, etc.

              So if a chance encounter involves parties we know of, then it will greatly facilitate a peaceful resolution to the meeting.

              But I’m still trying to develop an SOP for encountering groups we do know. Of course, Intel – if we have any – can greatly inform our actions / decisions on that as well. (The acquisition of a drone is making more and more sense). But then it would probably not be a chance meeting, but one of our choosing.

              So, we are back at that moment where we have made contact with an armed group, but are not sure if they are hostile. This is currently the SOP (IAD?) I have worked up:
              -“bomb bust”, seek cover, get on-line
              -push flank security out as feasible.
              -team members maintain tactical awareness as their 1st priority, and let the team leader deal with contacting opposing group.
              -the Team Leader:
              —maintains cover
              —deploy a white flag as a symbol of non-hostile intent and desire to “parley”
              —attempts to hail the contact. If possible establish who they are what they are doing.
              —explore possibility of contact via radio
              —attempts to negotiate withdrawal of opposing team, etc
              —makes a call about what to do next (perhaps in consultation with team).

              If the parley went well there could be a mutual agreement between groups to ‘stand-down’ and withdraw, establish formal contact with radio, arrange a formal meeting at a later time and place, etc.
              -team maintains position and waits for contract to withdraw
              -or/then team withdraws using bounding overwatch
              -team sets up hastily ambush in case of treachery
              -team withdraws to rally point and regroups

              If the parley did not go well:
              -team maintains position and waits for contract to withdraw
              -or/then team withdraws using bounding overwatch
              -or team executes breaks contact under fire
              -team sets up hastily ambush
              -team withdraws to rally point and regroups

              Of course the larger your team, the more options you will have for deploying a maneuver team, enveloping the contact, etc. I built the SOP for a minimal team of 4 men (2 buddy teams).

              Thoughts? Critiques?

              A separate but related subject was raised by Rampant – the use of arm bands. Given that people will be wearing anything from work coveralls to multicam, something must be used to aid in group identification. Hats might work – maybe khaki (or a unique camo pattern) boonie hats (the shape is distinct)? But other groups or individuals could be be using them as well. Ball caps are probably not a good solution for several reasons. Armbands are arguably much easier. But what color? Blaze orange and red are highly visible – but that is a double edge sword. White would work and it would be easy to find material in household supplies. What about blue? It would be easy to stock multiple rolls of blue painters tape. Or maybe a distinct green (neon?). Construction ribbon/tape comes in many colors and is cheap.

              Thoughts?

            • #124352
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                From a Intel perspective this is a bigger subject than it first appears to the layman.

                Ok let’s touch on your basic premise of chance contact SOP, this should be followed up in more detail in the tactical subforum.

                “bomb bust”, seek cover, get on-line
                -push flank security out as feasible.

                Dealing with a trained group this may be seen as a defensive reaction, but how will this be seen to “bubba fudd?”

                To the untrained this may seen as a aggressive prelude to attack. A better course maybe to freeze and slowly spread out just enough to be ready to RTR.

                Note: Above is an opinion and judgements call based on my experience and isn’t written in stone.

                If you have been patrolling by bounds, with overwatch, or using satellite methods. Then these unseen elements can be more proactive without unsettling the unknown group.

                And yes – one of the 1st actions after an event is to make contact with our neighbors to check on them, assure them we are there to assist, gather information, etc.

                This is a stepping stone action to be followed by their neighbors, then those neighbors neighbors and so on…

                Remember as part of this you will be establishing comma plans with them. Do they have comms? Maybe a dusty CB radio that can be brought into action? The extra radios you have set aside (used CB bought at yard sales etc…) for this use. At geographically advantageous locations you had preselected as part of your IPB? Maybe some bubblepack GRMS radios for their neighbors to relay information to CB, which is then relayed to your TOC?

                This all about early warning and information for analysis into Intelligence. Secondly it gives people a renewed sense of security, the SHTF 911 system.

                It’s this renewed sense of security that will garner cooperation to cross their land when patrolling. Something many overlook is just because an “Event” has happen do you really think your armed patrol can just go anywhere it pleases without consequences? Post Event trespassing will be a bigger deal than most seem to think.

                The acquisition of a drone is making more and more sense.

                Drone is really too vague a term. A typical quadcopter may have some tactical value, but it’s typical less than 30 minute endurance won’t be of much use on a patrol/recon.

                A fixed wing drone with hours of endurance, ability to orbit pertinent areas at covert altitudes would be of great value, but they aren’t off the shelf products which means you build or pay someone to build them.

                Of course, Intel – if we have any…

                If you have no Intel you’ve really screwed up your preparations and ignored MVT’s warnings.

                I’ll leave it there until my follow up post which will describe the basic Intelligence information you should have available for this application.

              • #124361
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                Moderator

                  Some amplifying information…

                  Information & Intelligence is an essential element that may make the difference between life and death for you and your family. You may think that I don’t post much in this forum, but that is simply because I have experts here who are running some excellent analysis and training. If you think I am just interested in being a ‘tactical guy’ then you could not be further from the truth.

                  Ultimately there are two points of consideration that cover deaths in combat.

                  Lives that were spent on the battlefield and lives that were wasted on the battlefield!

                  The spending of lives is a costly but necessary part of armed conflict.

                  The wasting of lives due to incompetence, lack of planning, and arrogance to name a few. This is an unnecessary part of armed conflict that unfortunately happens far too often.

                  Ignoring the role of Intelligence, the concepts behind it, and the products it provides will directly lead to Lives Wasted!

                  Do not learn this lesson the hard way.

                • #124368
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    So in our hypothetical scenorio your patrol has moved onto the “Sam Jones” property. This 40 acre track of mostly forest land has been abandoned since the “Event” and you know this from previous contact his neighbors.

                    You knew who owned it even before that contact because your IPB identified this through the use of County GIS data commonly available online pre-Event. This information was confirmed by his neighbors on previous patrols.

                    Through pre-mission map study and your continuingly updated IPB from previously conducted patrols.

                    You know where the best routes are to travel accross this property. You know likely places for RON/camp spots, areas of likely ambush, potential LP/OP positions, and other features of interest.

                    This property is on the outer limits of your established patrol area and is the most likely place for a chance encounter with unknown people without such a group being seen by your community network or at least signs that someone has been traveling your communities AO.

                    The use of various scanners and direction finding capability also provides potential lines of bearing and potential ellispses of unknown origin communications. Again potential forewarning of areas of interest/contact.

                    With this Intelligence and your familiarity of area combined with well practiced field craft increase the likelihood that you will see another group before they see you.

                    Additionally your use of Satellite Patrolling means it is highly likely that at least one, if not two elements will remain unknown to any chance contact, providing you with great flexibility and options depending how encounter unfolds.

                    Questions/thoughts?

                    Note: None of the above is outside the capability of any group large enough to conduct such patrols. A smaller group could gather the same information for conversion to Intelligence, but would require the use of smaller covert recon patrols.

                  • #124425
                    JC
                    Participant

                      Thanks for the feedback Joe.

                      After an event, as part of our check-up visits we will be exploring comms with our neighbors. We have some cheap FRS and Baofeng’s we can distribute to key persons. Of the two, I prefer the FRS radios for distribution due to their channelized simplicity (for untrained civilians). We also have the capability to communicate via CB as that used to be THE radio Americans used.

                      I agree that intelligence and pre-planning are essential.

                      Also, I strongly endorse satellite patrolling. It does provide additional flexibility, and also reduces the risk of a total wipe if things go south.

                      • #124437
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          JC: what classes have you done with MVT?

                        • #125054
                          Sitting Duck
                          Participant

                            JC, There’s a lot of truth in “Good fences make good neighbors”.

                            As livestock on pasture has decreased, the fence has become Posted signs.

                            It’s much easier to identify bad guys when they break the rules.

                            My sign printer is occupied with her mother’s hospice care but some preliminary layout of an alternative to the traditional Posted sign was started. “Keep out” doesn’t work if you want to sell goods and services. “Stay on the road”, “To make ready is to make war. Keep weapons pointed only at things you are willing to destroy.” “Don’t spoil the water,no bathing in the spring.”” no hunting, trapping, camping, fires, or laying of mines without authorization”

                            A few thousand acres posted with unique signs and empowered by a mutual defense group would show organization and encourage civil behavior.

                        • #124469
                          JC
                          Participant

                            Max,
                            I attended CRCD June 2014, Combat Patrol May 2015, and VA Alumni CTT July 2015. I was scheduled for the Nov 2016 VA Alumni FOF but had to cancel out when our house sold. I’m signed up for the Dec HEAT 1 class.

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