Polish GROM Team Movement Drill

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    • #72678
      Max
      Keymaster

        You can also do this with more than 2 people or adapt it for other team drills.

      • #72679
        Max
        Keymaster

          That’s a great illustration of the concept, thanks for posting. Man, you see those boys huffin’?! PT PT PT right?

        • #72680
          DiznNC
          Participant

            It’s interesting when they do buddy fire and maneuver they physically tap their buddy before moving forward. Hmmmm.

            Any thoughts here?

          • #72681
            Max
            Keymaster

              That tap technique wouldn’t work for a fire team on line assaulting in the open, but the tap is pretty standard for movement inside buildings.

            • #72682
              D Close
              Moderator

                If you can tap, I think it helps with situational awareness. Sometimes we can get tunnel vision when engaging a target. When cover is sparse, I see a utility in bounding one at a time to a piece of ground that offers some protection. In an urban area, this may very likely be the case. I think it is likely they are practicing just that scenario. If your AO involves urban terrain, it looks like a good drill to work on. On the bad side, you are a more tempting target for a grenade or a specialty high velocity sniper round. Also easier for the enemy to suppress a single firing point. I think the important thing in such a drill is the teamwork and trust built using these tactics, not whether they translate exactly to a particular scenario.

              • #72683
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                Moderator

                  It’s interesting when they do buddy fire and maneuver they physically tap their buddy before moving forward. Hmmmm.

                  Any thoughts here?

                  That tap technique wouldn’t work for a fire team on line assaulting in the open, but the tap is pretty standard for movement inside buildings.

                  Many Small Units use forms of hand tactile communication, for instance many use it transfer last man duties during a Australian peel. Generally it is part of 4 man and smaller teams.

                  There have been some Geek tests involving Tactile boxes and sensors for larger units. (see attachment)

                • #72684
                  Max
                  Keymaster

                    I can see how it would work well for a peel but if you’re assaulting you shouldn’t be close enough to tap your buddy.

                  • #72685
                    DiznNC
                    Participant

                      Yeah I was kinda wondering about that. I mean it’s a great idea, for when you’re basically linear like that (or Aussie peel- good example), but it kinda stacks you up vertically, instead of occupying battlespace horizontally. Which to me means one round through two guys if you’re not careful, or lucky. Again, urban assault shit.

                    • #72686
                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                      Moderator

                        I can see how it would work well for a peel but if you’re assaulting you shouldn’t be close enough to tap your buddy.

                        Yeah I was kinda wondering about that. I mean it’s a great idea, for when you’re basically linear like that (or Aussie peel- good example), but it kinda stacks you up vertically, instead of occupying battlespace horizontally. Which to me means one round through two guys if you’re not careful, or lucky. Again, urban assault shit.

                        Hopefully there isn’t a lot of assaulting going on with 4 man and smaller teams. :-)

                        All units have to develop SOP’s, there is room for some Tactile Comms, to enhance stealth or help pull someones head out of the tunnel. With the later being especially true for green guys before confidence missions are completed.

                        Situation dictates what Tactics are used, the newbie mistake of reversing this can be fatal.

                      • #72687
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          Hopefully there isn’t a lot of assaulting going on with 4 man and smaller teams. :-)

                          [devils advocate] True….but sometimes circumstances/Murphy dictate you have to run with what you have. [/devils advocate]

                        • #72688
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            Situation dictates what Tactics are used, the newbie mistake of reversing this can be fatal.

                            Don’t bunch up just to be able to do secret handshake!

                            Hopefully we are all striving to have a toolbox full of options to address many of Murphy’s complications.

                          • #72689
                            Max
                            Keymaster

                              This is just a quick snapshot of one drill from a class or train-up. The viewer is not provided context of the experience level of the operators, the goal of the drill, the learning objective, where in the training sequence the drill falls, or what (possibly very specific reason) they are doing tactile confirmation. It should be viewed with that in mind.

                              It is useful to show people a simple drill where they can observe “a way” partner movement can be done and think of other ways they can modify it to fit their learning objectives.

                              Not so much so that people can point and criticize the operators tactics.

                              It is kind of similar to the video of Max’s class that caused so much controversy on WRSA and how mad everyone got because Sean did not know the context, objectives, etc. etc.

                              Just my opinion

                            • #72690
                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                              Moderator

                                Not so much so that people can point and criticize the operators tactics.

                                I don’t see much criticizing going on, I see a legitimate discussion how one part of a drill may or may not be applicable to our uses as Armed Citizens.

                                I personally believe it or a variation has use for us, or maybe I am just getting “touchy feely” in my old age!

                                Just my opinion :-)

                              • #72691
                                aveighter
                                Participant

                                  I like it. Another version of applying the basic skill set to a specific scenario.

                                  Max actually talks about this. There are not hard and fast rules, per se. The basic and underlying skills are constantly modified to meet the specific circumstances one is presented with.

                                  At the basic school a concept known as “The 70% solution” was taught. Simply put (very simply) you start out with a plan based on a certain quantity of information. As more info is received the plan (tactics etc) are modified consistent with the new info and you keep moving forward constantly evolving as required.

                                  I know this is a bit of a rough analogy but I think it’s useful here.

                                • #72692
                                  Corvette
                                  Participant

                                    Not knowing anything about what the drill is all about , if we assume the OpFor is a bunker , … Doesn’t that make the ” stacked ” trainees into an ” enfilade ” target ?

                                    Assuming I’m a complete noob at SUT , this pretty much isn’t a good idea. Right ? Better to get horizontal across the area ?

                                  • #72693
                                    Lloyd
                                    Participant

                                      No experience, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I can see a use for the shoulder tap thing in a situation with limited visibility (night, dense foliage). Example is this old video of SEALs doing a center peel in jungle:
                                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6zHMZrwDis

                                    • #72694
                                      Max
                                      Keymaster

                                        <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Danie Theron wrote:</div>
                                        Not so much so that people can point and criticize the operators tactics.

                                        I don’t see much criticizing going on, I see a legitimate discussion how one part of a drill may or may not be applicable to our uses as Armed Citizens.

                                        I personally believe it or a variation has use for us, or maybe I am just getting “touchy feely” in my old age!

                                        Just my opinion :-)

                                        G.W.N.S, I was not directing that toward any certain person. Just a reminder to all readers of the thread that the video clip does not give the viewer enough information to critique the appropriateness of the tactics shown. However, it is great to generate discussion for development of skill building drills. It might also get people thinking of how they can make the most of a generic square range – if that is what they are limited to most of the time.

                                      • #72695
                                        DiznNC
                                        Participant

                                          Uh I might be guilty here, calling it square range bullshit. And yeah, that was a snap judgment based on one vid clip, BUT, I think we’re talking about VTAC doing overseas training, which is Kyle Lamb, which is gaming it big time, IMHO. He is all about these intricate square range drills, which to be fair include a lot of movement, but is basically square range bullshit, more suited for the competition crowd, again IMHO.

                                          I guess I am biased, but I think with good reason. The whole purpose of this forum is to explore T,T,&P’s, as they relate to Max’s main thrust, which is deep woodland light infantry tactics. When I see a vid clip of VTAC and tactics that seem suspect for use in woodland F & M, I throw the BS flag.

                                          Maybe that sounds harsh, but this is the guy featured on a magazine cover not long ago, in Kryptek cammies. Doing an article on “tactical fantasy vs reality” no less. So I know this is a guy firmly entrenched in the tacticool crowd to begin with. The vid clip only confirmed what we know about him. Unlike Sean, who we don’t know Jacque shitola about.

                                          Not arguing, just esplaining.

                                        • #72696
                                          Max
                                          Keymaster

                                            DizNC, the Poles might have been just using his barricade design for the training. Then, whoever found the video to put up on Youtube recognized the barricade and named the video “V-TAC in Poland”. Just my guess.

                                            As for Kyle Lamb, I have nothing but respect for him. He is out making a quality contribution in writing, video training, equipment design, and instruction. People don’t have to like every single drill he teaches to see that his overall contributions are a value.

                                          • #72697
                                            Max
                                            Keymaster

                                              The only problem I have with tapping is you’re never quite sure if it was on purpose, he bumped you, or you got hit by a piece of gear as he went by….

                                              As far as fitness goes, it would be interesting to see how quickly their heart rate returns to normal since that’s an anaerobic drill. That’s a better measure of fitness for IMT.

                                            • #72698
                                              DiznNC
                                              Participant

                                                But again a value to what purpose? If you look at the balance of Kyle’s work, it is firmly planted in the urban assault camp. I happen to agree with Max in that our best chance lies in deep woodland terrain. So my focus is towards preparing for ops in that area. VTAC barricade shooting has it’s place if you’re a urban assaulter. That’s what I assume these gents are practicing. But I don’t see what value it has to us. Especially within the context of vertical stacking and buddy taps. That is movement technique for city streets where you are totally channelized in your movement. Out in the woods we have the freedom to deploy horizontally across the battlespace, making us harder to hit with head-on fire (as opposed to defilade).

                                              • #72699
                                                Max
                                                Keymaster

                                                  Diz, don’t totally discount the need for some sort of urban assault TTPs, even in very rural areas. The world is not sterile and devoid of people and buildings like some maneuver training area on a military reservation. You’ll find structures just about everywhere eventually. Often these are full of people. Especially in the eastern half of this country. Do a visual search of your AO via Google Satellite. Granted, I’d rather shoot the hell out of a building from the outside, or burn them out rather than enter and clear, but that’s not always possible, and sometimes you actually want the building(s) intact for various reasons.

                                                • #72700
                                                  DiznNC
                                                  Participant

                                                    Duly noted. Just tired of looking at it.

                                                  • #72701
                                                    aveighter
                                                    Participant

                                                      This is a USMC night squad attack training exercise. In it you will note a lot of hollering amongst the shooting. Familiar things like “move, moving, get on line”. Where have I heard that stuff before?

                                                    • #72702
                                                      DiznNC
                                                      Participant

                                                        Wherever you did your school of infantry training! That would include MVT these days, no doubt.

                                                      • #72703
                                                        Corvette
                                                        Participant

                                                          Guys,

                                                          This is a DRILL. Most drills are designed to provide a foundation of training that you revert to when the wheels start to come off. This drill is a good one in it can be applied to really any setting you can think of including highly wooded areas and open fields. The tap is taught for a good reason. It basically allows your buddy to know a couple things.
                                                          1. I’m still alive. I didn’t get shot and you didn’t notice it during all the shooting.
                                                          2. I left my last place of cover and am moving.
                                                          3. It’s your turn to move once you hear me shooting.
                                                          4. You need to move past me next bound.
                                                          5. Were still going the same direction.

                                                          It’s a form of shorthand that works better in a gunfight. I’m shooting at people and they’re shooting at me. Were all moving trying to out flank each other. There’s smoke from my weapons, smoke grenades and the fire my tracers started. The wounded are screaming and the dead get confused for prone comrades. Remember there’s a lot going on. The 3 sides to the pyramid are shoot, move, communicate. This tap covers two of those three.

                                                          There’s also a lot of reasons to move to you friends position. Microterrain is one. Command and control is another, firing lanes, direction of travel and communication are just a few reasons. Spread out too much and you’ll get picked off, separated, fratricided, lost or captured. Everything is a trade off.

                                                          This is not square range bullshit. It’s a building block we use to hone our skills and eventually we use that block to smash bad guys over the head.

                                                          Aaron

                                                        • #72704
                                                          Thomas
                                                          Participant

                                                            Aaron, yes, this is a valid communications drill. In the video, I suspect the team is in close proximity because of the range configuration. They probably would not be that close in an assault in open terrain. However, proximity to team mates when under fire occurs because soldiers seek support from their buddies. It is the job of the team and squad leader to keep guys within mutually supporting positions of one another and to stop soldiers from bunching up.

                                                            Without context, there is really not much to say about the specific actions in the video.

                                                          • #72705
                                                            Corvette
                                                            Participant

                                                              The great thing about drills is they don’t need context. That’s why they are drills and not scenario based training. This can be applied to really any situation. Look at the old standard battle drills the Army developed. They are not scenario based. They work all the time. The fundamentals and the building blocks don’t change.

                                                            • #72706
                                                              Thomas
                                                              Participant

                                                                Sorry, but drills do require context. Drills are TRAINED and lead to muscle memory reactions. Training takes over and limits the need for thought. Drills are largely reactionary meaning that the individual and/or team react to something – contact, ambush, action front/left/right. Reaction to something is the context.

                                                                Drills form the building blocks for action in SUT. Once action has begun, the leader can can then begin to maneuver. That is the purpose of Lane training. The lane scenario provides an opportunity to implement a reaction drill and then initiate a follow-on action. For example: the drill of react to contact drives the team/individual to RTR. Once cover is found and fire is being returned, the leader makes a decision based on his analysis of the situation to attack or break contact. Both actions introduce new drills into the scenario.

                                                                Reduce a stoppage still requires context. First, the shooter executes SPORTS. If the stoppage is simple, he is back in the fight. Continued failure to fire requires a different drill to reduce the stoppage. That is context.

                                                              • #72707
                                                                Corvette
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Thomas,

                                                                  It’s strange you don’t seem to agree as what you’ve written is entirely lacking “context.”

                                                                  Context gives us details about a situation so it can be fully understood. Check out the definition. You don’t need to fully understand a situation to react to it. That’s how real combat works. The event will unfold based on your and the enemies actions.

                                                                  These drills however work without all the scenario information. Thus context is the pure sense is unnecessary. If you’re using the term context as in “someone is shooting at you” then that is an incorrect use of the word.
                                                                  Malfunctions also do not require context. They are dealt with in all circumstances the same way.

                                                                  An ambush or attack or whatever has some variations so they get different drills. These are also not context. They are enemy actions. Context is your environment, who you’re fighting, why, when etc.

                                                                  Here’s the definition of context.

                                                                  “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.”

                                                                  Forgive me I’m a stickler for precision of speach. I think if everyone understands then we can all be on the same page.

                                                                  Aaron

                                                                • #72708
                                                                  Thomas
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    I am a stickler for speech, too. Based on your definition contact, ambush, stoppage provide the circumstances that form the setting for the event….

                                                                    Thanks for the lesson.

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