Orlando Pulse nightclub shooting: About 20 dead in act of terrorism, police say

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    • #68182
      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
      Moderator

        Orlando Pulse nightclub shooting: About 20 dead in act of terrorism, police say

        Excerpt:

        Officers killed the gunman, who has not been identified, in a shoot out and referred to him as a “lone wolf.” He was carrying an assault rifle, a handgun and was possibly wearing an explosive “device.” The Orange County Sheriff’s Office hazardous device team is now searching the area.

      • #68183
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          Police say ‘around 20’ killed in shooting at Orlando nightclub, more than 40 taken to local hospitals

          Excerpt:

          The gunman, whose identity was not immediately released, “may have leanings” toward radical Islam, FBI Special Agent in Charge Ron Harper said when asked by Fox News whether the suspect had ties to Jihadist terror groups. Harper said the investigation is looking into possible threats made previously by the suspect in connection to radical Islam groups. He said the agency is still investigating and has yet to confirm any role a terror group may have played in the mass shooting.

        • #68184
          trailman
          Participant

            Note that the name had not been released yet. If it were a white Christian southern boy his name and face would be all over the news.

          • #68185
            ragnarok
            Participant

              “Lone wolf” is code for: We are going to use this event to justify enacting stringent gun laws and to severely restrict the 2A.

            • #68186
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                Fox News

                The shooter was identified as Omar Mateen, according to several major news outlets citing law enforcement sources. Mateen, a 29-year-old U.S. citizen from Fort Pierce, Fla., allegedly has parents of Afghani origin.

                Fox News confirmed that the suspected gunman was Muslim.

              • #68187
                Lloyd
                Participant

                  It’s “workplace violence”, or “anti-gay bigotry”, having NOTHING to do with the fact that the shooter was a follower of the “religion of peace”. It’s obviously the easy availability of these weapons of mass destruction, aka assault weapons, that is to blame!

                  :wacko:

                  MVT Texas 2015-2020
                  Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                • #68188
                  DiznNC
                  Participant

                    Yeah shooter is on point with the usual prog bullshit.

                    Would not surprise me to see homosexual community blame cops for all the deaths and violence. I can see the lawsuits and pay-offs lining up already. Can’t blame the muslims of course.

                    So this “Iman” gets up there and blathers on about what a tragedy, blah, blah, blah. Just once I’d like to see one of these fuckers say hey we don’t support this shit, in fact we call on all muslims to stop the violence, or words to that effect.

                    Death toll may have climbed to 50 dead and at least that many more wounded. How the fuck could one guy shoot through at least 4 mags without someone shutting him down? That will be interesting to hear.

                  • #68189
                    wildbill
                    Participant

                      Soft targets will be the choice of “lone wolves” and even teams of terrorist and in places where the average person lives. My fear is that sooner or later there will be attacks on schools i.e. CNN.com – Russia school siege toll tops 350 – Sep 4, 2004. Even if you don’t have children in school you can see what an attack like that would do if you can’t imagine it then you might want to read Day of Wrath by William R. Forstchen.

                      Terrorism will increase and so will the loss of freedoms demanded by everyday citizens wanting to feel secure.

                    • #68190
                      DiznNC
                      Participant

                        Some thoughts. I was in some discos in Fla back in the late 70’s. You would see fundamentalist Christians preaching from their Bibles across the street (probably as close as they were allowed to be at that time). All the military guys would go out and cheer them on. You could see the confusion on their faces. I guess we were suppose to bark or hiss or something. As far as I know, not one of the Christian preachers ever opened up with a rifle on the crowds of sinners in our dens of iniquity.

                        Why is it, the government and news media can’t figure out that we’re under attack by Jahdiis? They have been talking non-stop since this morning and can’t even agree on what to “characterize” this attack as. Let me help ya out on that one. We are under attack by international muslim terrorists. How hard was that. Jeez.

                        Evidently the one armed off-duty cop providing security was engaged and effectively neutralized. So if JUST ONE GUY with a CCW had managed to sneak up on this guy and blow his fucking brains out, how many people could have been saved. Why is this so hard to fucking understand. Or at least acknowledge. Just one fucking guy. With a G-26. In his garter belt, or wherever.

                        I cannot fathom how you can sit there and let some guy shoot at least 100 rounds into a crowd. How the fuck could that happen?

                        There was about 3 hours between the firefight with the security guard and when SWAT assaulted. What was going on? Did he wire up all the exits with fake explosives and tell everybody they’d blow up if they tried to escape? Did he have any accomplices to lock down over 300 people in a night club for 3 hours? When SWAT assaulted, how did he get so many shots off? Was he barricaded in somehow? Did he do 1 1/2 sec mag changes that nobody get at him during the lull?

                        What a fucking shit show. Get ready for the fall-out.

                      • #68191
                        Skittles
                        Participant

                          Apparently the number is 50 now

                        • #68192
                          xsquidgator
                          Participant

                            I work at the hospital that the victims were taken to. Literally 3 blocks north up the street. I guess it’s insensitive, but my first thought was “holy cow, that place is a gay bar? Am I the last person in town to know stuff like this?” (I’m too old and not inclined anyway to the clubbing and bar scene, why would I know). Second thought was along what Diz said, batten down the hatches, here they come for our guns.

                            Regarding some of the comments about why didn’t someone with a CCW stop the guy? In Florida, bars are prohibited places for concealed carry per statute. Once again, gun free zones only disarm the people who follow rules. From what I understand of the place that got hit, it was of the hipster gay kind of place, not a bad-boy place full of thugs. This muslim shooter guy wouldn’t have lasted 5 seconds in some of the bars in the bad neighborhoods in town, state law about carry or felons with guns doesn’t carry the same weight those places.

                            Speaking of insensitive, I’m not even surprised anymore that we could have yet another mass-murder islamic thing happen, 15 years after 9/11, and still the progs think the NRA and white male privilege is to blame. People used to say the 1960s were “the crazy years” as described by Robert Heinlein, surely NOW we’re in “the crazy years”?

                            Lest you all think I’m some terrible person for talking without a filter, I am on standby with the local blood center if they need my type. They apparently don’t need my kind of rare type yet.

                          • #68193
                            Lloyd
                            Participant

                              The gunman who killed at least 50 people at an Orlando nightclub early Sunday was a licensed security officer who claimed more than once that he had connections to Islamic terror groups, Fox News has learned.
                              http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/12/florida-nightclub-shooter-had-made-threats-in-past-reports-claim.html?intcmp=hpbt1

                              MVT Texas 2015-2020
                              Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                            • #68194
                              RRS
                              Participant

                                Plenty of places to post political crap and I fully take advantage of that, but I have to say IMO the plot of “Days of Wrath” is on the event horizon possibility after this morning.

                                Our “elite” is building a pyre of flammable materials, soon not even “moderate” muslims will feel the need to apologize or give their usual ROP line, they are sharks and they smell blood.

                                FWIW a year ago I would have said “Days of Wrath” was stupid but entertaining FOX News clickbait, the kind they sell to rubes only to mock the rubes. We have been overcome by events as they say.

                              • #68195
                                RRS
                                Participant

                                  I’m probably making a holy mess of the intelligence process, but I see for the muslim extremists that schools might not be high up as targets as we might think.

                                  The gay bar massacre in my estimation plays well internally with the muslim community a school massacre as happened in Russia might be seen by the “peaceful moderate” muslims as unnecessary against the West (at this point)

                                  But then again overseas the muslims show no discretion, but I think the decadent West offers up better targets than a girls’ school.

                                • #68196
                                  Roadkill
                                  Participant

                                    Just ordered 80 Pmags for me and my friends, while sitting in church before service started. I have a feeling things may tighten up again. Get your gear while it’s still available.

                                  • #68197
                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                    Moderator

                                      There was about 3 hours between the firefight with the security guard and when SWAT assaulted. What was going on?

                                      We’ll see what finally comes out, but I suspect it’s old school “SWAT Think!” They are not up to speed with the idea of Islamic Terrorists who will just continue to kill if given time. Note I am not necessarily talking the SWAT guys, but the guys that give the go ahead.

                                      Get ready for the fall-out.

                                      Won’t be much in the way of anti-gun, sure you will have the die hards blathering, but this doesn’t fit the narrative.

                                      FWIW a year ago I would have said “Days of Wrath” was stupid but entertaining…

                                      I have been surprised we haven’t seen more of this already, there isn’t much standing in the way to prevent this type of thing.

                                      Local and State LEO’s are not trained to deal with this and the FBI is too busy trying to create “terror groups” with informants and provocateurs looking for easy convictions and justification for their budget. Not to mention kissing up to whatever political whims the current Administration has.

                                      “peaceful moderate” muslims


                                      No such thing!
                                      A moderate Muslim is the equivalent to a backsliden Christian. Religious in name only.

                                      What will be truly interesting is to see how the Socialists react and spin this.

                                      You have two popular minorities, the LGTB community (victims) on one side and the Muslim (religion of peace BS, jihadist) on the other.

                                      They will most certainly piss off one or the other, perhaps both in their response.

                                    • #68198
                                      DiznNC
                                      Participant

                                        For the life of me, I don’t see how the progs can roll out all their bullshit and not expect to get called on it. I mean how can you champion gay rights and Islam at the same time? Unless of course the obvious “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” thing. As long as something is against the western Christian democracies, it’s GTG. But talk about riding the tiger’s back. Kinda like the Nazis and the Commies dividing up Poland at the beginning of WWII. You know at some point, the shaky alliance is gonna break down.

                                        Can’t wait to see how the gov and media are gonna spin this thing. Let’s see, so Ft Hood was workplace violence. San Bernardino was (eventually) a “lone wolf” terrorist attack, with ties to Islam down-played. This one will probably end up being blamed on the local Baptist church, who radicalized this poor unfortunate lad with their out-spoken opposition to gays.

                                        So hey let’s not let this stop the mass immigration of more radicalized muslims into the country. Wouldn’t want to offend them. How did we ever get this fucked up.

                                      • #68199
                                        wheelsee
                                        Participant

                                          Why is it, the government and news media can’t figure out that we’re under attack by Jahdiis? They have been talking non-stop since this morning and can’t even agree on what to “characterize” this attack as. Let me help ya out on that one. We are under attack by international muslim terrorists. How hard was that. Jeez.

                                          Might I suggest that the government want/desire these attacks to further their agenda. And the media, being the propagandist arm that they are for this administration, will feign outrage on camera but will secretly discuss how best to use the events to further the government’s agenda.

                                          While I am not a conspiracy theorist, I do look at the dots and try to see if there are any connections (part of my real-life job). I also tend to go where the evidence leads. Some may call it “unintended consequences” but when you douse a fire with gasoline, why are people surprised when it flares??

                                          Sorry for the rambling – short and sweet – TPTB sow the seeds and allow the dirt-people to experience the consequences, TPTB add fertilizer, repeat…..

                                        • #68200
                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                          Moderator

                                            Here is something that could prove interesting.

                                            Man with weapons arrested in California ahead of Gay Pride parade, report says

                                            Excerpt:

                                            Assault rifles, ammunition and materials that could be used to create explosives were found by Santa Monica authorities early Sunday morning in the car of an Indiana man who said he was in town for a Gay Pride parade, The Los Angeles Times reported.

                                            When officers inspected the man’s white Acura, they found the weapons and ammunition cache as well as tannerite, a binary explosive that could be used to create a pipe bomb.

                                            The man, who has not been identified, allegedly told authorities he was in town for Sunday’s pride parade in West Hollywood.

                                            Obviously it’s just speculation on my part, but usually when “who has not been identified” is used they mean someone they don’t want it to be. Like maybe a Muslim?

                                            Let’s face it if it was a “White Christian Gun owner” it would be a top story.

                                          • #68201
                                            whitebear620
                                            Participant

                                              Wife and I were literally just driving through Orlando last night on the way home from Daytona. First thought when I heard it on the radio this morning:
                                              “WHY THE FUCK was no one carrying?”
                                              Had not heard it was a nightclub and such at that point, but like someone said above, bars/nightclubs are no go places for concealed carry in FL, I’ll let everyone make their own judgement about that statute.
                                              Also, the gay community tends to not be in support of the 2nd. Hopefully this shit can sway some of them to go join something like the Pink Pistols.
                                              Local news reports that the family of the shooter has stated that this has “nothing to do with religion” and that he had become upset at seeing two men kissing in Miami recently and that that’s probably what set him off.
                                              Gee, I wonder where he got the view that killing people is okay if you believe they’re actions are taboo came from :unsure:

                                            • #68202
                                              Anonymous
                                              Inactive

                                                I have like 20 different news apps on my phone, while the American media was finally getting to reporting the suspect’s name, let alone his affiliation, Haaretz was already getting more details in, apparently he was a nutjob and a wife beater, he’d beat his wife if she didn’t wash clothes or whatever, eventually his wife’s family snuck her out of the dude’s home because they were scared he would kill her.

                                                Were any assault charges filed? Restraining orders? CNN is reporting the pistol he used was a Glock he legally purchased, so either Florida’s NICS records are shit or no charges were filed.

                                                Of course they’re going to hesitate to identify the shooter as a radicalized Muslim, they need to get the message of the dangers of civilian gun ownership out before they call it a terror attack. If it’s an attack by a “foreigner”, then it’s harder to rally a direct attack on Americans’ rights.

                                                Jihadis kill 50 people in France, which has strict gun control laws: “We need to support our French allies in the fight against terrorism!”
                                                Jihadis kill 50 people in Orlando, which has moderate gun control laws: “Guns are evil! We need to end gun ownership in America, guns are too dangerous!”

                                                And as usual, this guy was already under investigation by the FBI, of course they never actually catch anyone who is about to commit a real attack, too busy setting up wannabes with fake bombs in entrapment operations.

                                              • #68203
                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                Moderator

                                                  Here is a example of Muslim compassion!

                                                  However Mateen’s father, Mir Seddique, told NBC News his son became angry when he saw two men kissing in Miami several months ago.

                                                  ‘This has nothing to do with religion,’ he said. ‘We are saying we are apologizing for the whole incident. We weren’t aware of any action he is taking. We are in shock like the whole country.’


                                                  SWAT helmet.

                                                • #68204
                                                  DiznNC
                                                  Participant

                                                    Yeah it’s the usual shit show. I don’t know what further proof anyone may need that your government is no longer willing or able to protect you from violence. I mean they have just decided it was a terrorist attack, since an ISIS propaganda organ just claimed responsibility for the attack.

                                                    Now the funny part will be how the Obama administration will try and spin this thing after their narrative for the last 8 years has been these are individual criminal acts, best handled by law enforcement. So now they have upped the ante and seem to be daring him to still call this regular criminal activity. Can you believe this shit? Our enemies our slaughtering our people in jihadi attacks and they/we can’t even get our government to recognize them as a legitimate threat against our national security. Maybe now? But I’m not holding my breath.

                                                  • #68205
                                                    DiznNC
                                                    Participant

                                                      Wow you know I think those helmets are just IIIa rated, and it took (at least one) hi-velocity 5.56 round? At least slowed it down enough that the dude is around to bitch about it. That almost looks like the guy took a 3 rd burst with one penetration. Hell if he had a NV shroud possible nothing would have gotten through?

                                                    • #68206
                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                      Moderator

                                                        Kind of a mix of different videos taking by ignorant bystanders.

                                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maxAXolTwxA

                                                      • #68207
                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                        Moderator

                                                          Wow you know I think those helmets are just IIIa rated, and it took (at least one) hi-velocity 5.56 round?

                                                          I suspect; based on other helmets I’ve seen hit, that round passed through an intermediate barrier before hitting helmet. Which would explain the peripheral damage and minor injuries to the LEO’s face reported.

                                                        • #68208
                                                          DiznNC
                                                          Participant

                                                            Yeah coulda been. Or he coulda been the number one man in the stack when they killed the fucker. Looks like he ate a lot of spall. Look at how the rubber rand contained a bunch of shit.

                                                          • #68209
                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                            Moderator

                                                              Looks like he ate a lot of spall. Look at how the rubber rand contained a bunch of shit.

                                                              Yea, I bet he’s ready for some time off and few drinks.

                                                              It’s truly amazing how many people have been saved by these.

                                                            • #68210
                                                              M1-Guy
                                                              Participant

                                                                I cannot help but look at all things through economic lenses, which I believe our opponents do as well. This will go down as a good “investment” for the bad guys.

                                                                I look at it like this. One guy with a $1000 worth of equipment has inflicted many times that on us in economic cost, not to mention human life. 50 dead, 53 wounded, hospital, doctors, etc., local, state and federal law enforcement. I am guessing you could be looking at 500k to 1 million in real economic costs, not counting lost future value from the people that are/were/no longer working to generate tax revenues.

                                                                If the terrorists can do this over and over and create panic amongst the public their actions end up as an economic sledge hammer at a low cost to them.

                                                              • #68211
                                                                xsquidgator
                                                                Participant

                                                                  If you haven’t read Fortschen’s “Day of Wrath” yet, read it. The comment above about these attacks being a high-payoff “sledgehammer” is right-on imo. However, the worst of the damage they inflict isn’t even the economic, it’s getting our own government to turn this country into a big gulag.

                                                                • #68212
                                                                  gunnerbob
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    I just read from AP that Obama did classify this as an “act of terror and hate” but, said that the motivations aren’t clear yet. I’m sure we can figure that out but, well y’know how it goes. It’s this threat of attack, as well as my anxiety around large groups of people, why I don’t go to places such as clubs/bars, sporting events, and the like.

                                                                  • #68213
                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                    Moderator

                                                                      Father of America’s most deadly mass shooter

                                                                      The father of mass shooter Omar Mateen, who opened fire at a Florida nightclub killing 50 people, is a strong supporter of the Afghan Taliban.

                                                                    • #68214
                                                                      First Sergeant
                                                                      Moderator

                                                                        Wow you know I think those helmets are just IIIa rated, and it took (at least one) hi-velocity 5.56 round? At least slowed it down enough that the dude is around to bitch about it. That almost looks like the guy took a 3 rd burst with one penetration. Hell if he had a NV shroud possible nothing would have gotten through?

                                                                        Roger on the rating. Usually only good for shrapnel from blast. But I have seen more than one slow a 7.62×39 down enough that the guys wearing it are still alive. Massive headaches and some time in a CASH, but alive.

                                                                        On the flip side, I know of one Soldier killed on a live fire range that took 5.56 and it killed him.

                                                                        A lot of it has to do with angles and distance.

                                                                        FILO
                                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                      • #68215
                                                                        DiznNC
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Right on 1st Sgt. Odin was smiling on that dude Sunday morn.

                                                                        • #68216
                                                                          Brian from Georgia
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            If you haven’t read Fortschen’s “Day of Wrath” yet, read it. The comment above about these attacks being a high-payoff “sledgehammer” is right-on imo. However, the worst of the damage they inflict isn’t even the economic, it’s getting our own government to turn this country into a big gulag.

                                                                            You got that right. Personal liberty will take a hit as we’ll see calls for more police powers, stiffer gun control, more email and social media monitoring, etc. Unless you are Muslim, of course. They won’t dare offend those folks.

                                                                          • #68217
                                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                            Moderator

                                                                              Some information of interest about the Jihadist’s employer G4S.

                                                                              From a comment in Ammon Bundy Arrested and Shooting Thread.

                                                                              G4S which is the largest Security Company in the US and in the top three worldwide.

                                                                              Co-worker: Omar Mateen homophobic, ‘unhinged’

                                                                              Excerpt:

                                                                              Gilroy, a former Fort Pierce police officer, said Mateen frequently made homophobic and racial comments. Gilroy said he complained to his employer several times but it did nothing because he was Muslim. Gilroy quit after he said Mateen began stalking him via multiple text messages — 20 or 30 a day. He also sent Gilroy 13 to 15 phone messages a day, he said.

                                                                              Has ISIS Infiltrated Homeland Security? Orlando Terrorist Worked for Major DHS Contractor

                                                                              Excerpt:

                                                                              Officials say Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, an Afghan-American who held two firearms licenses and a security officer license, was employed by the security firm G4S Secure Solutions USA Inc. since Sept. 10, 2007. The Jupiter, Fla.-based company merged with the Wackenhut Corp. after 9/11 and assumed federal contracts.

                                                                              “G4S supports the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection (CPB), with its operations at the U.S. ­ Mexico border and with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to transport illegal immigrants in selected urban areas,” the company says in a brochure, titled “Providing Manpower Solutions for Government Services.”
                                                                              The DHS contract with G4S is worth more than $234 million. The contract states that one of the “performance requirements” is helping identify “suspected terrorists” trying to enter the U.S.

                                                                              The security contractor also provides security guards and other security services for “90 percent of U.S. nuclear facilities.”

                                                                            • #68218
                                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                              Moderator

                                                                              • #68219
                                                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                  Convenient timing!

                                                                                  Petraeus, McChrystal Join Dozens of Former Military Leaders to Create New Gun Control Group

                                                                                  Excerpt:

                                                                                  Petraeus and Kelly are joined by other military veterans, including retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal and retired Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, in launching the “Veterans Coalition for Common Sense.” The group’s stated purpose is to urge lawmakers to do more to prevent mass gun tragedies.

                                                                                • #68220
                                                                                  Lloyd
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    Damned oath-violating scumbags.

                                                                                    I figured out in 1986 that a lot of really good soldiers and Marines retired as Colonels. Generals were usually f-ing politicians.

                                                                                    MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                    Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                                                                                  • #68221
                                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                    Moderator


                                                                                      Ignorance truly is bliss!
                                                                                      :yes:

                                                                                    • #68222
                                                                                      Lloyd
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        They should classify “muslim” right next to “adjudicated mentally incompetent” as being something that prohibits possession of a firearm. That would still be unconstitutional, but closer to “common sense” than any of the other horse-sh*t they’ve been espousing for the last 30 years.

                                                                                        MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                        Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                                                                                      • #68223
                                                                                        Robert
                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                          If you haven’t read Fortschen’s “Day of Wrath” yet, read it. The comment above about these attacks being a high-payoff “sledgehammer” is right-on imo. However, the worst of the damage they inflict isn’t even the economic, it’s getting our own government to turn this country into a big gulag.

                                                                                          Damn, I guess I’m going to have to read that…. His writing is awful with a capital off. I sure as hell hope he doesn’t blather on about cigarettes in this one also.

                                                                                        • #68224
                                                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                            Damn, I guess I’m going to have to read that….

                                                                                            Robert I know your not a Forstchen fan, I enjoyed Dies Irae: Day of Wrath. Though anyone who has spent much time wargaming possible scenarios won’t be surprised by the situation presented.

                                                                                            Dies Irae: Day of Wrath by William R. Forstchen

                                                                                            I started this Thread back in September 2014, it gives the basic premise.

                                                                                            It’s real value is for those ignorant of possibilities that are in need of a wake up call.

                                                                                            The recent video of Forstchen discussing it maybe of interest.

                                                                                          • #68225
                                                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                            Moderator

                                                                                              Orlando Gunman Omar Mateen ‘Cool and Calm’ During Negotiations

                                                                                              Excerpt:

                                                                                              He said that once information from hostages and the suspect suggested “further loss of life was imminent,” a decision was taken for SWAT to breach the wall of the club.

                                                                                              I wonder how many victims bled out while they negotiated?

                                                                                              I shouldn’t be armchairing this, but this really upsets me.

                                                                                              Federal officials told NBC News that Mateen went to Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012 — but said it was not immediately clear what he was doing there.

                                                                                              A spokesman for Saudi Arabia’s Ministry of the Interior, though, told NBC News that Mateen visited to perform a pilgrimage to Mecca.

                                                                                            • #68226
                                                                                              Lloyd
                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                That’s one thing that struck me about “Day of Wrath” and the Beslan attack – “Negotiation” just gives the psychos more time to kill people. SOP if islam is suspected should probably be to get in there and kill the perps as fast as possible, just as most agencies plan to do with “active shooters”.

                                                                                                MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                                Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                                                                                              • #68227
                                                                                                xsquidgator
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  Not to drift the thread too much, but Fortschen’s sequel to One Second After, One Year After, is also well worth reading. No harping on cigarettes that I recall :)
                                                                                                  But very much worth pondering, you make it through the initial chaos, can you survive the gubm’t coming to “help” on their terms whether you want it or not? It’s not a spoiler to share with you that the sequel begins with the protagonist’s daughter receiving a draft notice into the “National Army of Recovery” along with most of the other young, strong backs needed to get things done. If they take your daughter/son for 2 years, how are you going to get by? Will your daughter/son survive being used to put down riots in Texas or somewhere else?

                                                                                                • #68228
                                                                                                  Anonymous
                                                                                                  Inactive

                                                                                                    So now it’s looking like homeboy tried to buy Level IIIa body armor, but the shop owner thought something was off and refused the sale. Kudos to those guys, at least we won’t have the liberals bitching about body armor being available to civilians too.

                                                                                                  • #68229
                                                                                                    xsquidgator
                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                      Looks like another ammo-panic is surging, based on online chatter and looking at a couple of places I buy from. If you have the coin and were thinking of getting some ammo, magazines etc, I’d get it now if there’s any left of what you want.

                                                                                                    • #68230
                                                                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                                      • #68231
                                                                                                        Robert
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          NICE!

                                                                                                        • #68232
                                                                                                          skeets4039
                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                            G.W.N.S.

                                                                                                            After watching and reading press accounts, I was also wondering why the police on the scene did not go into their active shooter drill. Apparently they did and engaged him in a shootout until he went into a restroom with 4 or 54 hostages.

                                                                                                            “When more police responded, additional officers entered the club and traded fire with the gunman.

                                                                                                            “At that time we were able to save and rescue dozens and dozens of people and get them out of the club,” Mina said.

                                                                                                            Mateen holed up with four to five hostages in a bathroom, while 15 to 20 more people were trapped in another bathroom nearby, Mina said. That’s when police backed off.

                                                                                                            “Based on statements made by the suspect about explosives and an explosive vest, we did retreat,” Mina said.”

                                                                                                            http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html

                                                                                                            They also had a group of victims trapped in a portion of the club and couldn’t get them out.

                                                                                                            “Police made an “explosive breach” into the building, then used an armored BearCat vehicle to punch a hole about 2 squrea feet in the wall so that dozens could escape, Mina said.

                                                                                                            Mateen also emerged from the hole, armed with a long gun and handgun, and confronted SWAT officers backed against a wall who returned fire, killing him, Mina said.”

                                                                                                            https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HQ.287599035654&w=299&h=214&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

                                                                                                            Take Care

                                                                                                          • #68233
                                                                                                            Anonymous
                                                                                                            Inactive

                                                                                                              …And now there are reports that Mateen had been a regular at the bar and had used gay dating apps. So all this was a lashing out because he was a repressed homosexual? Jesus. :wacko:

                                                                                                              I guess his daddy really won’t be proud of him now.

                                                                                                              I’ve seen a number of those Mateen-Clinton memes on Facebook, freaking hilarious. :good:

                                                                                                            • #68234
                                                                                                              whitebear620
                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/06/14/the-gun-the-orlando-shooter-used-was-not-an-ar-15-that-doesnt-change-much/

                                                                                                                Turns out the terrorist used a Sig MCX and not an AR15 (at least according to the Washington Post so far). Interesting choice of rifle, considering he could have bought an AR for under $800 instead of the $1600ish for the MCX. Just makes me wonder if he was being financed, considering security guards aren’t that highly paid.

                                                                                                                Edit: Not going for any conspiracy theories, just caught my eye and makes me wonder if ISIS did pay for his supplies.

                                                                                                              • #68235
                                                                                                                RRS
                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                  As for financing it is reported on Drudge that he made expensive lavish trips to Saudi, maybe there is something there.

                                                                                                                  Note as of this morning ol’ turkey neck McConnel is being said that he will allow gun control bills to move thru his senate.

                                                                                                                • #68236
                                                                                                                  DiznNC
                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                    Here’s the thing on so-called “gun control”. I have heard it said that we should just accept reality and let all the illegal aliens stay, have rights, and so forth because, hey, they’re already here, let’s just deal with that. Well, by the same token, let’s accept the reality and let the people keep their guns, because, hey, they’re already have them, so let’s just deal with that.

                                                                                                                    Why do these assholes get to cherry-pick their arguments? If you want to talk about reality, then let’s do so, across the board. Reality 101. People are good and they are bad. The do incredibly good and incredibly evil things. Blaming inanimate objects for human behavior is ludicrous. Taking the above mentioned points as fact, take responsibility for your own safety. Take people at face value. Love those that are good. Shoot in the face those that are bad. Laugh at any government stooge that pretends to protect you.

                                                                                                                    You are the front line in America now. Get ready. Ignore all the noise. Train and equip to protect yourself.

                                                                                                                  • #68237
                                                                                                                    hellokitty
                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                      This is an article by Paul Howe with some common sense info on how gun seizure would take place. Essentially there are too many guns out there to make gun seizure practical. Now, the govt could definitely harrass citizens to voluntarily give up guns, but if Conneticut is an example, I don’t see that working either. I think the govt would have more luck shutting down the gun industry and ammo industries to make it more expensive for gun owners. Overall IMO guns are here to stay. However, we can expect constant harassment for a long time.

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                                                                                                                    • #68238
                                                                                                                      hellokitty
                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                        http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/paul-howe/2nd-amendment-and-the-kool-aid-drinkers-by-paul-howe/

                                                                                                                        This is an article by Paul Howe with some common sense info on how gun seizure would take place. Essentially there are too many guns out there to make gun seizure practical. Now, the govt could definitely harrass citizens to voluntarily give up guns, but if Conneticut is an example, I don’t see that working either. I think the govt would have more luck shutting down the gun industry and ammo industries to make it more expensive for gun owners. Overall IMO guns are here to stay. However, we can expect constant harassment for a long time.

                                                                                                                        HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
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                                                                                                                      • #68239
                                                                                                                        DiznNC
                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                          Well, yeah, again let’s look at reality. Not what we wish or would like to happen. Look at the “war on drugs” Did it work? Look at “immigration control”. Did it work? Look at the “war on poverty”. Did that work? Frankly I don’t know why anyone would be afraid of any “war” the fedgov initiates. As long as a huge portion of the population ignores it, they can’t do shit. Unless…

                                                                                                                          What Paul Howe says makes a lot of sense. Although I think the percentage of “Kool-Aid” drinkers has increased due to Kollectivist indoctrination.

                                                                                                                        • #68240
                                                                                                                          Mike Q
                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                            Diz,
                                                                                                                            You cannot have a rational argument with the left. They only argue with their emotions. So the second you try to argue with facts they slap their hands over their ears and simply scream their feelings louder.

                                                                                                                          • #68241
                                                                                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                            Moderator

                                                                                                                              OK let’s remember this latest move to label this jihadi piece of crap as a repressed homosexual is a desperate attempt to shift blame from islam.

                                                                                                                              Don’t allow this ridiculous move to go unchallenged within your circle of influence!

                                                                                                                              I wouldn’t be too distracted by the minutia details of this islamic terror attack. One islamic terrorist or multiple, financed or not, none of that matters beyond coffee table talk.

                                                                                                                              Look for lessons learned from our perspective to help you survive.

                                                                                                                              I would get away from from using “radical islam” and use islam.

                                                                                                                              Why? In your face truth instead of falling for the “name game” variations of socialist political correctness.

                                                                                                                              Speaking for myself, I am in a cold war with islam and all socialists whether they call themselves democrat, republican, or whatever!

                                                                                                                              Their actions, not words identify them.

                                                                                                                              There is no such thing as a moderate muslim!

                                                                                                                              Either they believe the koran or they don’t, I have both read and studied it and there is no room for this disinformation crap.

                                                                                                                              The closest you will find to a moderate muslim is someone who pretends to be a muslim to avoid being ostracized or killed by muslims.

                                                                                                                              Concerning the socialist blathering about gun bans?

                                                                                                                              Best case just talk, worst case a practical exam to this Forum’s contents.

                                                                                                                              Check out my Thread Civil Disobedience.

                                                                                                                            • #68242
                                                                                                                              HiDesertRat
                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                for Diz,

                                                                                                                                Social Justice Warriors have no concern for objective facts. You can neither persuade nor dissuade them from advancing their arguments by citing facts that falsify their claims. They will repeat their objectively false talking points until they tire you out or drown out your voice. You are engaging in dialectic while they are employing rhetoric.

                                                                                                                                John Walker

                                                                                                                              • #68243
                                                                                                                                ragnarok
                                                                                                                                Participant
                                                                                                                                • #68244
                                                                                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                                                                    So ragnarok are you ever going to clarify this comment?

                                                                                                                                    Article 3, section 3, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution specifies that the giving of aid and comfort to the enemy is an element in the crime of Treason. Aid and comfort may consist of substantial assistance or the mere attempt to provide some support; actual help or the success of the enterprise is not relevant.

                                                                                                                                    Family members of OPPFOR?

                                                                                                                                    Are you suggesting the targeting of family members is justified by the Constitution?

                                                                                                                                    From the Thread The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend and other Shortsighted Nonsense!

                                                                                                                                  • #68245
                                                                                                                                    ragnarok
                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                      Nope

                                                                                                                                      “A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

                                                                                                                                      The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

                                                                                                                                      Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his 
journey.

                                                                                                                                      The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

                                                                                                                                      Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

                                                                                                                                      The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”

                                                                                                                                    • #68246
                                                                                                                                      DiznNC
                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                        OK interesting but back to the OP.

                                                                                                                                        I still don’t know why the cops took 3 hours to get in there and kill that fucker.

                                                                                                                                        I still can’t believe the douche bag in chief will not call a Islamic terrorist attack, and Islamic terrorist attack.

                                                                                                                                        And the Dems, or should I say Dims want to ban my rifles.

                                                                                                                                        While the regime still allows all these rags heads to immigrate here with little to no background check.

                                                                                                                                        And the last thing. I don’t mean to sound like a dick, but we have become a nation that’s good at mourning dead victims of active shooter events, but don’t seem to have a clue as to how to fight back. I am the only one that sees all this press coverage of people mourning this terrible tragedy (why oh why?) instead of focusing on how to fight back against it? I mean at some point, bury your dead, nut up, and figure out how to stop this shit.

                                                                                                                                      • #68247
                                                                                                                                        trailman
                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                          OK interesting but back to the OP.

                                                                                                                                          I still don’t know why the cops took 3 hours to get in there and kill that fucker.

                                                                                                                                          I still can’t believe the douche bag in chief will not call a Islamic terrorist attack, and Islamic terrorist attack.

                                                                                                                                          And the Dems, or should I say Dims want to ban my rifles.

                                                                                                                                          While the regime still allows all these rags heads to immigrate here with little to no background check.

                                                                                                                                          And the last thing. I don’t mean to sound like a dick, but we have become a nation that’s good at mourning dead victims of active shooter events, but don’t seem to have a clue as to how to fight back. I am the only one that sees all this press coverage of people mourning this terrible tragedy (why oh why?) instead of focusing on how to fight back against it? I mean at some point, bury your dead, nut up, and figure out how to stop this shit.

                                                                                                                                          Ban guns. That’s the object here.

                                                                                                                                        • #68248
                                                                                                                                          trailman
                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                            I’m going to go full nutter here but after all I have seen reported on this guy and the scrutiny he has had, for his job, from the FBI etc. This guy was passed because they KNEW he had the potential to do this and it fit the narrative.

                                                                                                                                            WHat I can’t reconcile on that is that there is NO ONE in the LEO community that will speak out on that? NO one that says this was a terrorist in the making and we had to let him go? Just can’t reconcile that shit…

                                                                                                                                          • #68249
                                                                                                                                            DiznNC
                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                              Yeah I hear ya.

                                                                                                                                              Why would this douchebag in chief allow radical Islamic assholes to enter the country, wait for the inevitable attack on our citizens, and then call for another gun ban. Hard not to connect the dots and see this shit. Well, at least I think so.

                                                                                                                                              This is an act of treason, any way you cut it. But nobody is calling him on it. Well at least nobody in government. Unbelievable.

                                                                                                                                              Stock up boys.

                                                                                                                                            • #68250
                                                                                                                                              DiznNC
                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                Yeah the Fibbers seen totally ham-strung here, huh? Not to mention Congress, and the military leadership. Hard not to go full-conspiracy nut here.

                                                                                                                                              • #68251
                                                                                                                                                Lineman
                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                  PC is going to be the downfall of this country…It’s everywhere and anywhere and even on here…Sad That…

                                                                                                                                                • #68252
                                                                                                                                                  Lloyd
                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                    I find it hard to believe that most of the “grunts on the ground” in the FBI or whatever alphabet agency are not decent folks at heart, for the most part. Brainwashed statist lackeys maybe, but they THINK they are doing good, protecting the country for mom and apple pie and all that shit, just like soldiers, Marines, sailors, airmen, etc do.

                                                                                                                                                    Hearken back to where Max looked at the video of the armored up FBI “shooters” having their pre-Finnicum powow with the Idaho “militia” guys and Max said something like, “When I look at these guys, I see myself.”

                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, all of that does NOT mean that Evil men in positions of power do not manipulate those “grunts on the ground” and guide events in a way that furthers their goals. The “conspiracy theory” stuff that people are so afraid of is the NORMAL mode of operation for governments throughout history, in all places, in all times. The Evil assholes at the top convince the good but gullible “grunts” that what those grunts are doing is good and righteous. They do this through compartmentalization, filtered info, etc… Some Nazi soldiers were no doubt really GOOD dudes who thought they were doing right.

                                                                                                                                                    It’s not like this is anything new! Read “War is a Racket” by General Smedley Butler.

                                                                                                                                                    Now, after accepting that reality, it is not so hard to believe that the “powers that be” are bringing in a bunch of people (muslims, Latin-American illegals) who they KNOW are disproportionately violent criminals. Then the corrupt powers that be can use the fear generated by that violence to convince people to trade freedom for security, which gives them more power and control. That is the very nature of government.

                                                                                                                                                    MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                                                                                    Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                                                                                                                                                  • #68253
                                                                                                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                                                                      I still don’t know why the cops took 3 hours to get in there and kill that fucker.

                                                                                                                                                      My best guess is that those in charge still haven’t grasped the reality of counter-terror vice standard LEO fair. Also remember that like most bigger cities Orlando is mostly Socialist.

                                                                                                                                                      And the Dems, or should I say Dims want to ban my rifles.

                                                                                                                                                      While the regime still allows all these rags heads to immigrate here with little to no background check.

                                                                                                                                                      Standard Socialist operation with some muslim flavor added.

                                                                                                                                                      …but don’t seem to have a clue as to how to fight back.

                                                                                                                                                      Plenty know how and have “run to the sound of gunfire,” it just gets ignored since it isn’t part of the playbook.

                                                                                                                                                      Backwoods Home Magazine has an article that touches on some who have fought back. Defending against terroristic mass murder,By Massad Ayoob, available online.

                                                                                                                                                      Here are a few more. 9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally Owned Firearm

                                                                                                                                                      The 1966 Charles Whitman Texas Tower shooting in Austin resulted in 17 people killed and 32 wounded. Once rifle fire from armed citizens on the ground pinned him down there were no more hit.

                                                                                                                                                      Allen Crum, a armed citizen helped LEO’s kill Whitman in the Tower.

                                                                                                                                                      This just scratches the surface, there are many more!

                                                                                                                                                      NO one that says this was a terrorist in the making and we had to let him go?

                                                                                                                                                      Philip Haney titled his book See Something, Say Nothing: A Homeland Security Officer Exposes the Government’s Submission to Jihad, Haney is one of many who have tried to to “say somehting,” but again it’s not part of the playbook of the Socialist propaganda machine, AKA the mainstream media.

                                                                                                                                                      This is an act of treason, any way you cut it. But nobody is calling him on it. Well at least nobody in government. Unbelievable.

                                                                                                                                                      No amount of voting will solve this, it’s possible some of the State and Local levels will have some use “Pre/Post-Event!”

                                                                                                                                                      The “conspiracy theory” stuff that people are so afraid of is the NORMAL mode of operation for governments throughout history, in all places, in all times.

                                                                                                                                                      There is no fear, but the legitimate knowledge that dwelling on so called “conspiracy theory” stuff would detract from the Forum’s primary focus:

                                                                                                                                                      MVT Forum: A Tactical Forum for the Armed Citizen.

                                                                                                                                                      Vision: to provide a forum for the constructive discussion of all matters tactical and related. To do this while remaining free from dogma, or falling into narrow thinking. An open minded and constructive approach.

                                                                                                                                                      Intent: to educate civilians in the correct ways to conduct tactics, and hence increase the survivability and effectiveness of such civilians when facing tactical threats.

                                                                                                                                                      To avoid: narrow thinking, civil disorder against legitimate government, terrorist threats, and radical political agendas. All crazy far out theories, whether true or not! Legitimacy is imperative. Acceptable: discussions on Liberty and threats to it, societal collapse, and fighting potential enemies foreign or domestic. Resistance to threats of tyranny, foreign invasion or the like.

                                                                                                                                                      There are plenty of sites dedicated to such for those interested.

                                                                                                                                                      It’s not like this is anything new! Read “War is a Racket” by General Smedley Butler.

                                                                                                                                                      Worthwhile book, I recommend it.

                                                                                                                                                    • #68254
                                                                                                                                                      DiznNC
                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                        While we are out on the fringe here, frankly it’s hard not to be very cynical in this day and age. I am TOTALLY out of step with the current modern thought, which makes me an out-lier, aka a bitter clinger in their parlance, but I also happen to believe I’m actually very moderate, and they moved the standards so far left that it makes me now look like a kook.

                                                                                                                                                        Very true about the cycle of governments and civilizations. More power is always their objective, and left un-checked, you have our present sit. Unfortunately we live in an advanced state of decline, which is only going to get worse, IMHO.

                                                                                                                                                        I guess the bottom line here is that a huge portion of the population is now pacifist and ripe for the conquering. When faced with violent action, they run willy-nilly away from it, and then re-form for their candle-lit pity-parties. People this worthless are not fit to be free.

                                                                                                                                                        The question is, are there enough men left have any effect on the course of events. I’ll just leave it at that, because I agree, there are enough websites for all that noise already.

                                                                                                                                                      • #68255
                                                                                                                                                        Lineman
                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                          http://islamthreat.com/distribution_of_mosques_in_usa_2015.html You better either have a lot of tribe if you live in an area with a high concentration of mosques or you better be gone from that area when SHTF…Because no matter how backwards they are they do know one thing better than Freefor and that is numbers matter…They know that you play the victim until you have the numbers to exert your influence on the population… Which their influence is submit or die…

                                                                                                                                                        • #68256
                                                                                                                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                                                                                            I guess the bottom line here is that a huge portion of the population is now pacifist and ripe for the conquering. When faced with violent action, they run willy-nilly away from it, and then re-form for their candle-lit pity-parties. People this worthless are not fit to be free.

                                                                                                                                                            The question is, are there enough men left have any effect on the course of events.

                                                                                                                                                            If some major long term “Event” happens, most of them won’t survive.

                                                                                                                                                            Which helps demonstrate, it’s not about the current balance of power that matters, but who emerges after the population is sifted.

                                                                                                                                                            Current guestimates put the US population at around 322,762,018 people.

                                                                                                                                                            I suspect that even if we only represent .005% of the population, that’s still 1,613,810 people and I think that is on the low side.

                                                                                                                                                            Low guestimates put gun owners at around 125,877,187 people (I think it’s much higher).

                                                                                                                                                            Again even if we go with only .005%, that’s still 629,385 people.

                                                                                                                                                            Kind of hard to push that many around. :yes:

                                                                                                                                                          • #68257
                                                                                                                                                            devildog70
                                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                                              No idea on the truth of the reports, but I read an article stating that some of the hostages were saying Mateen was on his phone, discussing tactics with someone.

                                                                                                                                                              Reports are coming in that Mateen told negotuators that there were:

                                                                                                                                                              1. IEDs hidden outside.
                                                                                                                                                              2. Accomplices in sniper overwatch
                                                                                                                                                              3. He had an explosive vest.

                                                                                                                                                              Coupled with the fact that he stopped shooting for a couple hours, after the initial hit, those facts would explain the more deliberate response of LE. It was no longer technically an active shooter after he bunkered down in the restroom with hostages. That signals a SWAT response, which barring rounds flying, generally entails an attempt at negotiation.

                                                                                                                                                              These tactics and practices, while evolving, are in place due to previous caselaw and fear of liability. Couple that with recent concerns of police “militarization,” and it’s pretty easy to understand why they didn’t go full-tilt on a response when there were no longer shots being fired.

                                                                                                                                                            • #68258
                                                                                                                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                the hostages were saying Mateen was on his phone, discussing tactics with someone.

                                                                                                                                                                If he was in fact communicating with someone, they will probably ignore it rather than change the view of “lone nut job” vice muslim terrorist.

                                                                                                                                                                Reports are coming in that Mateen told negotuators that there were:

                                                                                                                                                                1. IEDs hidden outside.
                                                                                                                                                                2. Accomplices in sniper overwatch
                                                                                                                                                                3. He had an explosive vest.

                                                                                                                                                                Probably just disinformation delaying tactic in this case, however one day this will be true and I fear and the true target will be the first responders.

                                                                                                                                                                Coupled with the fact that he stopped shooting for a couple hours, after the initial hit, those facts would explain the more deliberate response of LE.

                                                                                                                                                                The problem I have with this excuse is how many bled out while they negotiated with this muslim terrorist!

                                                                                                                                                                Not to mention he could of easily been slitting the throats of surviver/hostages during this period.

                                                                                                                                                                I can’t help but believe that Local/State LEO’s (emphasis on bureaucratic managers in charge) are ill prepared for what is potentially coming to our country.

                                                                                                                                                                For me the only thing surprising is that this hasn’t been a more frequent event.

                                                                                                                                                              • #68259
                                                                                                                                                                hellokitty
                                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                                  IMO, LE fucked up big time on this one. thinking it was a hostage situation was a blunder that got more people killed. I realize that this was a chaotic situation, but the ones in charge did a terrible job of reading the situation. And after Columbine, there is no excuse.

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                                                                                                                                                                • #68260
                                                                                                                                                                  devildog70
                                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                                    IMO, LE fucked up big time on this one. thinking it was a hostage situation was a blunder that got more people killed. I realize that this was a chaotic situation, but the ones in charge did a terrible job of reading the situation. And after Columbine, there is no excuse.

                                                                                                                                                                    The shooters in Columbine never stopped shooting. It also completely changed response to active shooters, country-wide. Up until that point the response was contain and hold on SWAT, even if bullets were still flying. No longer the case.

                                                                                                                                                                    Like I said above, the departments were constrained by caselaw. Add in training trends, and liability concerns, and no department in the country is gonna push that door immediately.

                                                                                                                                                                    We can’t have it both ways. We can’t on one hand say we want SWAT to breach, and start smoking fools just because they “might” be slitting throats, then bitch about over-agressive SWAT teams trying to justify their existence by creating situations where they are “needed.”

                                                                                                                                                                    Hindsight kicks ass, but IF they were getting reports of IED’s, suicide vests, and possible snipers, and they crashed the door, they would be fools. Especially if even one of those reports ended up being true. Imagine they hit the door, and Mateen detonated a vest, causing an extra hundred casualties. And it came out that he was not slitting throats when it happened. EVERYONE would be screaming for the cops’ blood.

                                                                                                                                                                    Terrorism or not, use of force on American soil is nowhere near warzone ROE’s, and I doubt any of us really want them to be. Cross that line, and it only gets easier to cross in the future.

                                                                                                                                                                  • #68261
                                                                                                                                                                    devildog70
                                                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                                                      the hostages were saying Mateen was on his phone, discussing tactics with someone.

                                                                                                                                                                      If he was in fact communicating with someone, they will probably ignore it rather than change the view of “lone nut job” vice muslim terrorist.

                                                                                                                                                                      Reports are coming in that Mateen told negotuators that there were:

                                                                                                                                                                      1. IEDs hidden outside.
                                                                                                                                                                      2. Accomplices in sniper overwatch
                                                                                                                                                                      3. He had an explosive vest.

                                                                                                                                                                      Probably just disinformation delaying tactic in this case, however one day this will be true and I fear and the true target will be the first responders.

                                                                                                                                                                      Coupled with the fact that he stopped shooting for a couple hours, after the initial hit, those facts would explain the more deliberate response of LE.

                                                                                                                                                                      The problem I have with this excuse is how many bled out while they negotiated with this muslim terrorist!

                                                                                                                                                                      Not to mention he could of easily been slitting the throats of surviver/hostages during this period.

                                                                                                                                                                      I can’t help but believe that Local/State LEO’s (emphasis on bureaucratic managers in charge) are ill prepared for what is potentially coming to our country.

                                                                                                                                                                      For me the only thing surprising is that this hasn’t been a more frequent event.

                                                                                                                                                                      It is pretty apparent the reports were bs this time. From the perspective of people on the ground, when the situation was active, there was no way to know, and they had to react as if it was true.

                                                                                                                                                                      Again, civilian LE is constrained by some very fucked up rules, when you start talking about dealing with terrorism. Nobody is going to be running through a scene doing dead checks or anchor shots, as things stand now. No one is going to risk endangering innocents, while the world watches, when they are not absolutely 100% certain deadly force is appropriate.

                                                                                                                                                                      Currently, industry standard on a bunkered suspect who is not actively shooting (or who they do not know for certain is cutting throats), is to give negotiations a chance. Is that the right answer? Hindsight says maybe not. But it is what it is. Especially when suicide vests and IED’s might be in play.

                                                                                                                                                                      Were mistakes made? Of course they were. Say hello to Murphy. Will tactics and responses evolve? Yep. Did the guys on the ground do the best they could with the shit show they were handed? I’m betting they did.

                                                                                                                                                                    • #68262
                                                                                                                                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                        Like I said above, the departments were constrained by caselaw. Add in training trends, and liability concerns, and no department in the country is gonna push that door immediately.

                                                                                                                                                                        At worst they face some lawsuit that will more than likely be settled out of court. They certainly face no criminal penalty, as we have seen even when they blatantly take an innocent life (wrong address as just one example)!

                                                                                                                                                                        So worst case a little PR problem, some Municipal Insurance settlement money gets spent, and their policy goes up.

                                                                                                                                                                        Which is why we have to take responsibility for our own lives and always be armed.

                                                                                                                                                                        We can’t have it both ways. We can’t on one hand say we want SWAT to breach, and start smoking fools just because they “might” be slitting throats, then bitch about over-agressive SWAT teams trying to justify their existence by creating situations where they are “needed.”

                                                                                                                                                                        I strongly disagree on this! I do expect SWAT to go all out in this type of situation and it’s not just about slitting throats.

                                                                                                                                                                        People died while they tried to get in the mind of the terrorist using their criminal playbook.

                                                                                                                                                                        I also expect them to differentiate between Terrorist/Active Shooter situations and more mundane events by comparison.

                                                                                                                                                                        The use of SWAT for questionable warrant service, particularly when based on an Informant with little or no confirmation investigation (one example) is a completely separate issue. Also consider some of these SWATing situations where they have stormed in with far less information.

                                                                                                                                                                        Terrorism or not, use of force on American soil is nowhere near warzone ROE’s, and I doubt any of us really want them to be. Cross that line, and it only gets easier to cross in the future.

                                                                                                                                                                        In many ways the more recent ROE in Afghanistan are more restrictive than what LEO’s are held to here.

                                                                                                                                                                        How many times have LEO’s Flash banged a crib, burned down a building, shot a mother holding a child and were never held accountable? These are a far cry from the unfortunate loss of innocent lives in a rescue attempt.

                                                                                                                                                                        Yet we have seen many a Service member held accountable for slapping a terrorist, beating up a Afghani Police who molested a young boy, to name just a few.

                                                                                                                                                                        No one is going to risk endangering innocents, while the world watches, when they are not absolutely 100% certain deadly force is appropriate.

                                                                                                                                                                        Unfortunately more innocent lives will be wasted with this thinking.

                                                                                                                                                                        Just to clarify in my perfect world, LEO’s would be better screened, paid better salaries, and would be held to a much higher standard (well I can dream ;-) ).

                                                                                                                                                                        I am sure for the most part we are on the same page Devildog70 as far as what we would like to see.

                                                                                                                                                                        I can’t help but believe that Local/State LEO’s (emphasis on bureaucratic managers in charge)…

                                                                                                                                                                        I put the blame primarily on the management who have exasperated this with bureaucratic politically correct nonsense.

                                                                                                                                                                      • #68263
                                                                                                                                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                        Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                          I put the blame primarily on the management who have exasperated this with bureaucratic politically correct nonsense.

                                                                                                                                                                          Traditionally they are also the ones trying to sell the “you don’t need guns since they (LEO’s) are here to protect us!”

                                                                                                                                                                        • #68264
                                                                                                                                                                          hellokitty
                                                                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                                                                            @DevilDog
                                                                                                                                                                            I hear what you are saying. I’ve watched the inside video of the Columbine shooting. It went on for hours, the shooters would ramp up and shoot kids then ramp down and walk around talking to the kids. They were evil fucks. But my point is they were not shooting all the time and acted similar to the Orlando shooting. They were not making cell calls though. Your point that LE changed dramatically after Columbine is very true. Which makes what happened in Orlando a fuck up on whoever was calling the shots. I agree with you that it was a chaotic situation and the threats of IED etc would have slowed any response. All you describe is spot on. What I have a huge problem with is the decision to treat this as a hostage negotiation situation. THAT was a major blunder and people died because of it. Also to be clear, I am not criticizing the responding LEO. I am criticizing the LE manager who made that decision. He/She fucked up.

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                                                                                                                                                                          • #68265
                                                                                                                                                                            hellokitty
                                                                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                                                                              One other point I would like to make, especially after Devildog and GWNS good points about LE SWAT in this country. At some point LE departments are going to have to rethink how they use SwAT teams. I beleive Dept using SWAT for high risk warrants need to stop. And focus SWAT on Active Shooter situations, because those are completely different animals. I know some SWAT guys that trained with some Isrealis who were their versions of SWAT. And they said that the Isreali SWAT guys were hyper aggressive. Why? Because they are not used to arrest people, they are there to kill bad guys and rescue any hostages.

                                                                                                                                                                              MY sWAT friend said they had an active shooter scenario and the Isrealis asked are there any hostages? Answer no. Then why go in? Just blow up the building. And when they do go in it is not to arrest. My point is, SWAT is misused in this country. And with these Islamic terrorist shootings, they better adapt or we are going to see more Orlandos.

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                                                                                                                                                                            • #68266
                                                                                                                                                                              Lineman
                                                                                                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                Well anyone catch this…From the Woodpile Report…
                                                                                                                                                                                It’s reported there were seven armed police officers inside the Orlando club while the shootings were going on:

                                                                                                                                                                                “After hearing reports of shots fired, Cornwell was at the nightclub only 38 seconds later… Within only two minutes, Cornwell and approximately six other officers had broken a large window and entered the club.”

                                                                                                                                                                                If the facts are as reported, they were ordered to stop, stand down and wait for SWAT. And they did. This was bravery without conscience. They hid and did nothing but draw their pay while listening to the screams and cries for help and the gunshots, protecting and defending only themselves. SWAT finally acted many hours later, long after some who could have been saved had bled out, abandoned and alone.

                                                                                                                                                                                If true, Orlando’s police department has earned and deserves unalloyed contempt. When it mattered most they betrayed an elemental duty and a public trust to do the right thing. It’s reasonable to expect they would betray that trust again…

                                                                                                                                                                                That makes it look like they wanted even more deaths to serve an agenda…Sad that even one out of the seven didn’t have enough balls to say screw that I’m going to save lives…I think it’s just an inkling of what they will be like when told to round us up…THEY WILL FOLLOW ORDERS NO MATTER WHAT…Sad That… :negative:

                                                                                                                                                                              • #68267
                                                                                                                                                                                Lloyd
                                                                                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, assuming this report is true, let your mind ruminate on the high points below:

                                                                                                                                                                                  They hid and did nothing but draw their pay… even one out of the seven didn’t have enough balls to say screw that I’m going to save lives… an inkling of what they will be like when told to round us up. THEY WILL FOLLOW ORDERS NO MATTER WHAT.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah, they will follow orders, up to the point where they think the risk is too high for the paycheck. There are some hard core badass cops I’ve met who will be the first to tell you that most cops are nothing more than bureaucrats with a gun on their hip. Ever hear the phrase, “blue welfare”? My gut tells me that those badass cops mostly at least TRY to do the right thing, most of the time. THOSE are the ones you want on your side if things go all squirrelly.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don’t paint them all with the same brush, good or bad.

                                                                                                                                                                                  MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                                                                                                                  Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                                                                                                                                                                                • #68268
                                                                                                                                                                                  Lineman
                                                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh I don’t I am helping one move up by me which I wouldn’t do if I thought they were all bad…Our Sheriff up here is a great guy and I know he will have my back if everything went to shit…The problem will come from your big city cops who have the US vs Them mentality that come from dealing with scum their whole career… Cops are a reflection of the Society they serve which bodes ill for us Patriot’s…

                                                                                                                                                                                  • #68269
                                                                                                                                                                                    devildog70
                                                                                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the problem with this line of reasoning. If even one of the things I posted above had been true, making entry would have done zero good, and may well have gotten more people killed.

                                                                                                                                                                                      We can debate the state of current LE training in the US, all day long. I will probably agree that much of it needs to cha ge, as will most people here. However, barring massive increases in funding, a willingness to mercilessly cut the dead weight in departments, and the willingness to “militarize” the police even further, it ain’t gonna happen.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Right, wrong, or indifferent, Columbine fundamentally changed police response to ACTIVE shooters in America. Pre-Columbine, cops were trained to set up a perimeter, and wait for SWAT, even while bullets were flying. Since then, if shots are being fired, cops are expected to hunt down the source of the shots, and stop them. I’ll say that again – if shots ARE BEING FIRED. Once a subject barricades himself, with hostages, and stops shooting (which Mateen did), it is no longer an active shooter situation. It is a hostage situation. In the case, one where the hostage taker was rumored to have a suicide vest. Non-SWAT cops are not trained to deal with that. Period.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Call it cowardice, call it blue welfare all you want. The fact remains, if Mateen did in fact have a suicide vest on, and a bunch of untrained street cops forced entry on him, when he was not shooting, and he detonated that vest, all hell would break loose. People here would be screaming about cowboy cops over-stepping their training and getting however many extra people killed. People on the other side would be bitching about cops trying to make sure gays and Muslims died. The cops themselves could very well be held individually liable for stepping outside their training.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Look at the BS in Baltimore – 6 cops indicted, and smeared in the papers for one death. You think cops anywhere are eager to be the next test case, especially for doing shit they are soecifically trained NOT to do?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Like it or not, the seven cops inside did exactly what they were trained to do, and considering the rumors of ied’s and suicide vests, they did the smartest thing they could – taking everything into account, that was “known” at the time. Hindsight is 20/20. Real life is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Believe me, training in LE is reactive, not proactive. Someone will come up with a response to situations like Pulse, for the street cops out there. Just in time for them to become yesterday’s tactics. Is that the way ot should be? Is that the way it needs to be, to win against terror attacks on our soil? Nope. Not a t all. But until shit gets REALLY, REALLY bad here, it is the way it will stay. And when it changes, all of us will look back fondly on the way shit used to be. Because fighting terrorism does not go hand-in-hand with civil liberties.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • #68270
                                                                                                                                                                                      Lineman
                                                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry buddy no matter how hard you try to justify what they did it was still wrong…If no one had been shot yes then it would of been a hostage situation… Once though people have been shot and you can hear them screaming and crying for help you go in…JMHO…

                                                                                                                                                                                      • #68271
                                                                                                                                                                                        skeets4039
                                                                                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                          Before everyone rushes to judgment, please remember there are two stories in play regarding the police response.

                                                                                                                                                                                          The first story, was that the officer working secondary engaged the officer outside the club and the suspect was able to force his way in after shooting club staff at the door. Two additional officers in the immediate area arrived on the scene in seconds, joined the secondary officer, and the three officers went into the club, located and engaged the suspect. After being engaged by the officers, the suspect retreated into a restroom. After entering the restroom the suspect claimed he had hostages and explosives. Upon hearing this the officers alerted dispatch and they were instructed to hold their positions until SWAT arrived.

                                                                                                                                                                                          That was the official story immediately after the incident and was carried by multiple sources. However, when the Orlando police chief was questioned by the press about friendly fire casualties among the patrons, things got weird. The chief made this reply, “Those killings are on the suspect and on the suspect alone, in my mind.” The attending surgeon also made strange comment that indicates the victims may have been struck by different kinds of rounds. The suspect only used his rifle.

                                                                                                                                                                                          It was after this statement by the Orlando police chief that a young officer from a neighboring agency volunteered the new statement. Looking at the size of the building and the layout of the club, the officer’s statement doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Also, the officer’s police chief was standing next to the officer and controlling what he said to the press. More than strange.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Normally as time passes, what transpired in an incident becomes clearer. However, not is this case. I personally suspect that some patrons may have been struck by police rounds, either in the initial shootout(s) or later when SWAT fired on the suspect after they breached the wall.

                                                                                                                                                                                          http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2670923.1465834560!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_1200/mass-shooting-pulse-nightclub-orlando.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                          There are a lot of bullet strikes on that wall, not counting the rounds that went through the opening into the club. I have yet to see how many rounds struck the suspect.

                                                                                                                                                                                          For those interested, much of this was discussed over at CTH.

                                                                                                                                                                                          New Orlando Terrorist Details – Omar Mateen Purchased Family Airline Tickets Day Before…

                                                                                                                                                                                          I’m not sure what is going on here with the different versions of events, but after 38 years in law enforcement, 13 years as an IA investigator and 4 1/2 years working cases with the local FBI Public Corruption/Civil Rights Unit, color me suspicious. It will be very interesting what the final story is going to be. I just hope it doesn’t begin with, “Once upon a time……”

                                                                                                                                                                                          Take Care

                                                                                                                                                                                        • #68272
                                                                                                                                                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                            And when it changes, all of us will look back fondly on the way shit used to be. Because fighting terrorism does not go hand-in-hand with civil liberties.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Well I agree on much of the LEO mentality you describe, I just can’t relate to their methods.

                                                                                                                                                                                            It’s just too far away from my outlook and demonstrates why I would never be part of those organizations. I strongly believe there are many good LEO’s, but it varies much depending on where geographically.

                                                                                                                                                                                            In regards to LEO’s disregarding our Rights, this will play right into the muslims hands. 4GW suggests this will lead ultimately to active push back against the LEO’s.

                                                                                                                                                                                            …and the three officers went into the club…

                                                                                                                                                                                            I’ve seen reports that as many as 6 entered, but otherwise the details you describe match what I’ve read.

                                                                                                                                                                                            …later when SWAT fired on the suspect after they breached the wall.

                                                                                                                                                                                            This is the way I am leaning, but we’ll see if the details ever come out.

                                                                                                                                                                                            …after 38 years in law enforcement, 13 years as an IA investigator and 4 1/2 years working cases with the local FBI Public Corruption/Civil Rights Unit…

                                                                                                                                                                                            Giving your background, thanks for your input.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I know we have other current/former/retired LEO’s here, but suspect many are reluctant to get into this since on many sites it can degenerate quickly into LEO bashing. We have avoided that here for the most part.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have many times taken exception to individual Officers/Deputies/Departments actions, but I have also commented on outstanding actions too.

                                                                                                                                                                                            It will be very interesting what the final story is going to be. I just hope it doesn’t begin with, “Once upon a time…

                                                                                                                                                                                            I agree with your suspicions and hope an accurate description of events comes out in time.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • #68273
                                                                                                                                                                                            Max
                                                                                                                                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                                                                                                                                              Spot on Devildog70.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Lack of training is a huge problem for LEOs. I can wish it would change. But with the current mindset toward LEOs and without a greater threat…. then no one is going to push money into training like they should.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • #68274
                                                                                                                                                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hostage reports gunshots in Pulse after 2:30 a.m., records show

                                                                                                                                                                                                Excerpt:

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mina has defended his department, saying officers behaved courageously and heroically and pulled many people to safety while the gunman was holed up in a bathroom with hostages.

                                                                                                                                                                                                He has said that Mateen stopped shooting at 2:18 a.m., and that’s what OPD dispatch records reflect.

                                                                                                                                                                                                But Sheriff’s Office dispatch records show something else: There were reports of gunfire at 2:30 a.m. and 2:34 a.m.

                                                                                                                                                                                                That’s quite a difference.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Excerpt:

                                                                                                                                                                                                This morning Mina would not discuss the Orange County dispatch records. His earlier statements, he wrote in an email, were based on an FBI timeline and what officers have told him.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Part of the problem I have with appointed Police Chiefs vice elected Sheriffs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Excerpt:

                                                                                                                                                                                                The first reference of explosives in OCSO records was at 2:51—when they are reported in the parking lot. Deputies then got word from OPD that the shooter was in the bathroom, possibly “wearing a bomb” at 2:52.

                                                                                                                                                                                                So the initial LEO’s were told to hold and pull back before reports of bombs/snipers/etc… were reported.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Excerpt:

                                                                                                                                                                                                As the night progressed, desperate callers continued to beg for help, asking to be rescued, and warning that people around them were dying.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I can’t relate to how ignoring these calls for help is somehow morally defensible, but the liability for an assault is too great!

                                                                                                                                                                                                I guess it comes down to “Dead Men tell no tales,” but survivors of an assault might sue?

                                                                                                                                                                                              • #68275
                                                                                                                                                                                                skeets4039
                                                                                                                                                                                                Participant
                                                                                                                                                                                                • #68276
                                                                                                                                                                                                  hellokitty
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Skeets for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Kudos to the officers that went in at the beginning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    First shots 2:02am
                                                                                                                                                                                                    First call with negotiator 2:48am
                                                                                                                                                                                                    3 calls to shooter by negotiator
                                                                                                                                                                                                    5:03am sound of breach

                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 hrs 15 min of negotiating? This is the part I have a problem with. They decided to push and breach after he stated he had bomb vest during third call. Maybe they need to read Max’s blog on decision making. Cause IMO they took a long ass time to decide to push.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                  • #68277
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe they need to read Max’s blog on decision making.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      That really is applicable to this! :yes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • #68278
                                                                                                                                                                                                      skeets4039
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                                                                                                                        “Kudos to the officers that went in at the beginning.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                        This version is in line with what was originally reported. The secondary officer and two officers who were nearby, went into club and engaged the shooter. Remember the original reports from patrons was that there were up to four shooters in the club. I suspect that the other three “shooters” were the first officers that entered the club and engaged the shooter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        While the officers definitely took the correct action, I fear that this may have been when some friendly fire causalities took place. Up until I retired, the active shooter training I received centered around scenarios involving schools, malls and office buildings. A small building packed with panicked civilians was never addressed during my training.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        The early reports claim there may have been around two to three hundred patrons in the club. Look at the lay out of the club in the link I posted above. It is not all that big and the inner walls were most likely 2×4’s and drywall. Here is the best photos I could find of the interior of the club.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        https://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/pulse-nightclub-interior.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now add music, flashing lights, screams, bodies and people running in terror. Now image trying to locate and safely engage an armed suspect under these circumstances. A true nightmare.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        The story from the Belle Isle police Officer Brandon Cornwell that he and five or six other officers broke through a large glass window and entered the club may have been the second group of officers that entered the club.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        The reason they smashed a plate glass window to gain entry to the club is a mystery to me. To the right of the window is the main entrance and to the left is the emergency exit. Officer Cornwell’s entire story sounds a little off to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree that the 2 plus hour time frame to make a breach sounds a little, long, however, we don’t know how long it took the officers to locate and evacuate the wounded they could reach or verify his claims.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Once the suspect announced he had explosives, the equation changed. Do you ignore the suspect’s claim, stage an assault and the suspect detonates his explosive device killing himself, the hostages, the persons trapped in nearby rooms and the assault team. Or do you wait, try to negotiate while you continue to rescue the persons who are trapped in adjoining rooms and try to ascertain with some certainty that the suspect did indeed have an explosive device.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I believe the suspect made three claims, he had an explosive device with him, he had a bomb in his van and that there was a sniper nearby. It appears that once two of the claims were proven to be bogus, the assault was planned and executed. A reasonable risk at that point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        This whole incident would make an excellent training scenario. A lot of lessons to be learned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Take Care

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • #68279
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                          FBI arrests wife of Orlando nightclub killer Omar Mateen

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Excerpt:

                                                                                                                                                                                                          The charges against his wife, 30-year-old Noor Salman, included aiding and abetting his attempts to support ISIS, as well as obstruction of justice.

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