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    • #65802
      Corvette
      Participant

        I loaded this up just now. All I can say is WTF..

        Confused individuals like this will run viral and unchecked when the hammer drops. They will have enough anger and food to remain quite effective Post-hammer Drop. How’s that Escape plan going?

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JUeJ71KDi4&feature=youtu.be

      • #65803
        sbrgirl
        Participant

          All I can say is: WTH are they saying?

        • #65804
          Max
          Keymaster

            THEY ARMED KENNY!! YOU BASTARDS!!

          • #65805
            Palmetto
            Participant

              Disturbing.

              People who “don’t care” and who “have nothing to lose” and who are liquored/drugged up are very dangerous. Throngs of them is not what you want to be dealing with.

              There are some very evil people who are stoking this fire and creating this situation.

            • #65806
              Corvette
              Participant

                “Nothing to lose” sums it all up…

                Bergmann

              • #65807
                M1-Guy
                Participant

                  Straight up!!

                • #65808
                  Corvette
                  Participant

                    I predict high attrition rates for untrained, confused OPFOR w/ limited comms skills

                  • #65809
                    Corvette
                    Participant

                      yep..shit bags like that will prey on the weak and helpless and act within the borders and confines of opportunistic predation. This shit is no different then an ISIS or AQ video iMO..

                      Bergmann

                    • #65810
                      Corvette
                      Participant

                        Very dangerous, but they will be looking to settle old scores before they even make it “out da hood.” That will reduce their numbers, and ammo.

                      • #65811
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          They probably each have like 100 rds per gun and feel that’s “a lot”

                        • #65812
                          Corvette
                          Participant

                            The military has had a problem with gangs for years. Many gangstas join just for the combat training and experience. Regardless, id never underestimate them, their numbers and their capabilities. You might have 20 illiterate idiots but all it takes is one Alpha personality with charisma to pull them together and teach them a few fundamentals. Whats more is many have been operating shadow organization with criminal activity fooling law enforcement. They are no stranger to organization and discipline..

                            Id never judge a book by its cover.. Its asking for disaster..

                            Bergmann

                          • #65813
                            trailman
                            Participant

                              The military has had a problem with gangs for years. Many gangstas join just for the combat training and experience.
                              Id never judge a book by its cover.. Its asking for disaster..

                              Bergmann

                              :good:

                              I was just think that. Looking at these guys I wonder how many have served. Be interesting to hear from the cadre on that point.

                            • #65814
                              Corvette
                              Participant

                                These hood rats will be a big problem in areas around urban centers. As was previously stated ” nothing to lose” and in their own minds everything to gain at any cost. No morality present.

                              • #65815
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  These vibrant youth are attempting to explain the ammunition versatility of the revolver (“dese take da fo five an da shotgun shale” = this particular weapon fires the .45 caliber round as well as a shotgun shell) as well as the geographic areas of concern (the intersection mentioned, the neighborhood, and basically all of North Carolina). In addition, a few grievances are mentioned as well as the business acumen of the gentleman on the far left in the retail unlicensed pharmaceutical trades.
                                  A few points:
                                  Mvfmoderator is likely correct. Usually these folks have the ammo in the weapon, occasionally a spare mag, sometimes loose rounds. Ammo storage is usually a half empty box in the top dresser drawer.
                                  Seriously.
                                  Stop laughing, though. Folks just like these just whacked a county councilman in Chester county , South Carolina, using small unit guerrilla tactics. By which I mean they shot him in his car, using about 20-30 rounds between the three shooters.
                                  Takeaway: if TSHTF, these fine young aspiring rap artists will likely avail themselves of low-cost consumer goods and beverages until that plays out, say 8-12 hours. There will probably be a bit of a lull, to figure out what comes next, check out some hotties, share the wealth.
                                  If things are still crazy, that’s when these guys are going to go all freelance brigand on the surrounding areas. They will be in cars, hit and run, targets of opportunity.
                                  Just my observations.
                                  Edit: to Bergmann, glad you are out of the hospital! Also, you gave me some info on the metal canteens awhile back, and I finally found one. Thanks a ton!

                                • #65816
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster

                                    Ok, what happened? Im detecting some defeatism in some posts in this thread. Any “alphas” among them will have their hands full herding cats. How much range time do you think these urban warriors have? The concept of cover and/or concealment? How about spelling cover and/or concealment? The minimal amount of research reveals that gangs are terrible at tactics and operate best under the existence of law enforcement. Think of the situation of them having the advantage of their victims having their hands tied by “law and order”. What do you think happens when its a fight for survival and the law of the jungle is in full effect? They lose the minute they are less than good neighbors.

                                  • #65817
                                    Palmetto
                                    Participant

                                      I wouldn’t underestimate the danger posed by these people. Individually they may not amount to much but they don’t operate individually. They come in swarms (riots, flash mob) and they come by surprise (drive-bys, muggings, knock-out game).
                                      Additionally, the sheer numbers of these people pose a threat. In a riot or a swarm it wouldn’t be hard to get overrun.
                                      Furthermore, many of these people are “battle inoculated” in that they live in a world where vicious violence is common place. They are without conscience, pity or remorse. Most have committed numerous violent crimes. Many have killed.
                                      Sure, they could be routed by a small unit with competent skills but you have to have a small unit with competent skills. Who has the blood and treasure to waste fighting crazy zombie hordes? Best to avoid and evade if at all possible.

                                    • #65818
                                      Corvette
                                      Participant

                                        I haven’t seen any defeatism. I guess that can be your perspective if you wish. Call em what you like, size them up as you will. Its on you. Palmetto pretty much sized them up quite well, at least in my perspective. I was always of the school where you measure threats from the top worst case going down, not the other way around. For me everyone is equally as dangerous and lethal until proven otherwise.

                                        I dont care if its Rangers, Girls scouts, Big foot, Alaska State Troopers, old ladies with blue hair, FEMA or these so these guys coming up the ally way, Its all the same. If they aren’t on my team when the hammer drops then they aren’t on my team and I don’t know.

                                        Bergmann

                                        SLED28: You’re welcome and thank you.

                                      • #65819
                                        JustARandomGuy
                                        Participant

                                          Never underestimate your opponent…

                                          Post SHTF, numbers and desperation will go a long way….
                                          Maybe at first there will be leadership failures, but once the “desperation” hits, it will be a simple matter of “follow me- I have free/better weapons- attack over there because they have stuff”. All it will take is a few successful raids to convince that person’s followers that they are worth following, and once a core group is started it will attract more followers… Multiply that if the person actually turns out to be a competent leader and/or has Mil/LE experience.
                                          Range time? Irrelevant. They have a superior volume of fire- un-aimed shots kill you just as well as aimed ones. And then, long term what happens when they capture a (or more) HMMV/MRAP with a 240 or M2?
                                          I wish I could find the article again, but the perfect example of this was an interview a cop/detective had with some prisoners convicted of violent crimes. And I remember specifically when asked what techniques they found most effective when attacking people one guy said (paraphrase) ” I just point and shoot, and hope that it either hits the other guy or throws his aim. Once I hit him and he goes down I can take my time finishing him off…”

                                          I would venture a guess that a very well trained, motivated, very aggressive team could win a few skirmishes, maybe a pitched battle if they had the ground, but long term, you will fall to sheer numbers if you don’t have a way to deal with that. No way around it. Either the enemy will just plain have more bullet sponges than you, or they will think up a way to come at you in a way you won’t see coming.

                                          So, not defeatism, just a serious theory on what a small group’s tactical reality will be post SHTF. Like Palmetto said, avoid and evade…. t’s not about winning it’s about not losing”
                                          Preaching to the choir, but post SHTF will not be about having sexy matrix-esque gunfights against massive hordes of random idiots, it will be about surviving to live and fight another day… It’s not about winning it’s about not losing.

                                          Lizard Farmer had some interesting stuff about this, as well as preparing defensive obstacles back in the day on his blog.
                                          Here is one of his pieces:

                                          Defense: Obstacles Part XI: Breaking Contact And Evading

                                        • #65820
                                          Corvette
                                          Participant

                                            I would venture a guess that a very well trained, motivated, very aggressive team could win a few skirmishes, maybe a pitched battle if they had the ground, but long term, you will fall to sheer numbers if you don’t have a way to deal with that. No way around it. Either the enemy will just plain have more bullet sponges than you, or they will think up a way to come at you in a way you won’t see coming.

                                            You made a good post..

                                            Superior math always wins over inferior math.. Its just the math of it.

                                            4 examples that pop in my mind at the mo:

                                            Operation red wing, Navy SEALS….
                                            Major Ashbey, Sierra Leon, British Royal Marines..
                                            Fuken Irene, Mogadishu Solmalia, Army Rangers…
                                            Entire German army in WWII….

                                            All against “primitive” inferior forces but where hand serious ass whippings by sheer weight of numbers..

                                            Bergmann

                                          • #65821
                                            Corvette
                                            Participant

                                              Ok, what happened? Im detecting some defeatism in some posts in this thread. Any “alphas” among them will have their hands full herding cats. How much range time do you think these urban warriors have? The concept of cover and/or concealment? How about spelling cover and/or concealment? The minimal amount of research reveals that gangs are terrible at tactics and operate best under the existence of law enforcement. Think of the situation of them having the advantage of their victims having their hands tied by “law and order”. What do you think happens when its a fight for survival and the law of the jungle is in full effect? They lose the minute they are less than good neighbors.

                                              Quoted for truth.

                                              Only the limited ROE under ROL keeps them alive.
                                              Once victims are under no illusions about ROE, then 2 MVT grads can take out that entire posse in 1-2 minutes

                                              (Even the “flash mobs, which are unlikely to materialize in the absence of comms, are only a threat because people are constrained from shooting under normal rule of law environment.. Under anyhting but normal rule of low environment, unskilled aggressors full of bravado will suffer very attrition rates very quickly.)

                                              also desperate half starved probably dehydrated folks do not make smart calls.

                                              Unaimed fire is just that, unaimed.
                                              And they will likely expose themselves to do it.
                                              Their assumed “superior” numbers will dwindle real quick.

                                            • #65822
                                              Max
                                              Keymaster

                                                No defeatism at all; I was simply trying to point out a few characteristics of these dazzling urban youth.
                                                Let me point out a few more.
                                                These dudes operate in a style of violence that can be described as….socialistic. In other words, they need extrinsic moral support. Packs, gangs, crews, tribes, call it what you will, but overwhelming numbers on their side is mandatory for the bold warrior to raise his head. They are predatory; in fact, think of hyenas. They roll in packs, and attack when odds are overwhelmingly in their favor. But there is NO Braveheart/Alamo/Battle of Mogadishu genes in these folks.
                                                In a hard fight, with equal odds….
                                                They will cave.
                                                They will roll over and submit.
                                                Y’all know, I am sure, that the moral is to the physical as three is to one (that’s Napoleon. Bonaparte, not Dynamite).
                                                And I have zero -ZERO- doubt that three MVT alumni (disclosure: I am not yet one) could take nine or more of these cowardly thugs.
                                                But as previously mentioned, one unlucky shot can mess you up, so be able to outrun, out punch, out shoot, out plan, and out execute your enemy, and then maintain your prayers to whomever runs your universe.

                                              • #65823
                                                Palmetto
                                                Participant

                                                  Pray for peace but prepare for war.

                                                  Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

                                                  Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

                                                  If you follow these guidelines, all your “surprises” will be pleasant ones rather than tragic ones.

                                                  Personally, I’m not going to seek these people out to fight them. But if I’m in a situation where I have to fight them, and they roll up very nicely or scatter to the wind, I’ll be pleasantly surprised, and thankful.

                                                  :good:

                                                • #65824
                                                  Corvette
                                                  Participant

                                                    Quoted for truth.

                                                    Only the limited ROE under ROL keeps them alive.
                                                    Once victims are under no illusions about ROE, then 2 MVT grads can take out that entire posse in 1-2 minutes

                                                    (Even the “flash mobs, which are unlikely to materialize in the absence of comms, are only a threat because people are constrained from shooting under normal rule of law environment.. Under anyhting but normal rule of low environment, unskilled aggressors full of bravado will suffer very attrition rates very quickly.)

                                                    also desperate half starved probably dehydrated folks do not make smart calls.

                                                    Unaimed fire is just that, unaimed.
                                                    And they will likely expose themselves to do it.
                                                    Their assumed “superior” numbers will dwindle real quick

                                                    Ill assume that quote of “”superior”” was in reference to my previous comment. Ill also add that your assumptions depend on whole lot of ‘what ifs’ in order to bring your more benign perspective into a manageable reality or truism. I often urge folks to never assume down threat, always assume up threat. Think outside the box because they sure will be. They are very capable of it. If down playing the threat is what you want, thats your perspective and I respect that. I don’t claim to know everything. However I’ve never regretted adding preparations and formulating contingencies for worst case situations. Its always better to have and not need then it is to need and not have. Prepare.

                                                    By the measure many seem to be sticking with there is no real reason for much ammo and weapons, or even to train for that matter. A nice arm chair in a high window should out smart these mindless trolls, right? Bring a good 10/22 and a few boxes of ammo, that should suffice? I mean after all these people cannot operate unless its in large raving mad groups, cannot understand the need to carry ammo, cannot understand the need for food and water because they are blinded by thug savagery, they cannot communicate verbally, cannot shoot, cannot communicate in written text, they are slow and slothful, nor can they manage the cerebral IQ needed to adapt to the situation. I’m not wanting to be rude but that’s Utter ridiculousness.

                                                    Daleg spoke of laws of the jungle. I agree. I also believe in survival of the fittest and that’s the law of the jungle. You’ll deal with the mass waves or your deal with the ones that have adapted and rose to the top of the new social food chain and the ppl that rallied under them. Both will be bad fights.

                                                    There seems to be some distinct indication that there are two camps forming here. One that sees them as a serious threat to be prepared for in a way as to hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The other is brushing them off as mindless trolls incapable of adapting and pulling resources by taking the path of assuming the best will come to fruition and work in their favor..

                                                    I think that video scared a few folks.

                                                    Bergmann

                                                    Hudson: How can they cut the power,man..They’re fucking animals!

                                                  • #65825
                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                    Moderator

                                                      I definitely believe in never underestimate a Threat!

                                                      Numbers are a serious threat, even untrained ones.

                                                      As mentioned there are well trained Bad Guys out there, some with combat experience.

                                                      When we first went to Afghanistan many; if not most, of the young Afghans that had only fought the Taliban or Northern Alliance; depending on point of view, were the spray and pray gunfighter type.

                                                      Those that had fought the Soviets were more competent.

                                                      After sometime fighting U.S. and Coalition troops the incompetent were weeded out and the survivors were better through OJT.

                                                      This OJT will weed out many here on both sides if things ever get interesting.

                                                      Caution and preparation do not equal defeatism!

                                                      Yes, caution can be taking to the extreme leading to inaction.

                                                      I do not see that in the above, I see those willing to spend lives if required, but not willing to waste lives through overconfidence.

                                                      It doesn’t get anymore serious!

                                                    • #65826
                                                      Corvette
                                                      Participant

                                                        I do not see that in the above, I see those willing to spend lives if required, but not willing to waste lives through overconfidence.

                                                        Well put. (all of it)

                                                        Bergmann

                                                      • #65827
                                                        Corvette
                                                        Participant

                                                          Being trained is the answer to numbers.

                                                          Trained troops can attrit and beat a multiple of untrained folks.
                                                          Especially if those untrained folks dont even know how to properly equip themselves.

                                                          its been mentioned the “weak will be weeded out and the strong survive” sure.
                                                          But thats called severe attrition just like I described above.
                                                          And afterwards theirs number will not seem so scary after all.

                                                          Long hours spent in training are an advantage that will not go away.

                                                          Unless we want to engage in the Cannibal Army fantasy that seems to materializes out of nowhere so quickly in many novels.

                                                          Their combination of Lack of leadership, lack of training, lack of understanding the non urban AO, their underestimation of armed citizens (since they are used to cowering unarmed urban liberals) and lack of sustainment especially in Ammo will lead to a very severe attrition very quickly when they attack even the most humble self defense groups postions.

                                                          The primary threat they represent is to the unprepared, or to the prepared unaware (night time surprise, which can be prevented by a guard)

                                                        • #65828
                                                          Mike H
                                                          Participant

                                                            I can see with good, experienced “pseudo” NCOs and line officers these ppl could be a force to deal with. There are criminal organizations and elements that are well organized and equipped here. Once upon a time the French didn’t think a rabble in SE Asia had lasting power…

                                                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BALzH1g-auo

                                                          • #65829
                                                            Corvette
                                                            Participant

                                                              That “rabble” in SE was well trained , well led, well supplied unlike the urban criminal element.

                                                              Are they a threat when they head out of the cities in droves?
                                                              yes of course but the all conquering cannibal Army that will suddenly make our superior training and weapons and ammo supply non-descisive ?

                                                              No.

                                                              “Forces in being are decisive”

                                                              We are those forces in being if we train properly.

                                                            • #65830
                                                              Corvette
                                                              Participant

                                                                Their combination of Lack of leadership, lack of training, lack of understanding the non urban AO, their underestimation of armed citizens (since they are used to cowering unarmed urban liberals) and lack of sustainment especially in Ammo will lead to a very severe attrition very quickly when they attack even the most humble self defense groups postions.

                                                                The primary threat they represent is to the unprepared, or to the prepared unaware (night time surprise, which can be prevented by a guard)

                                                                Again you assume the advantage over something you cannot even be close to being sure of……

                                                                Chew on this a while..

                                                                Many gangs are sophisticated criminal networks with members who are violent, distribute wholesale quantities of drugs, and develop and maintain close working relationships with members and associates of transnational criminal/drug trafficking organizations,” the assessment noted. “Gangs are becoming more violent while engaging in less typical and lower-risk crime, such as prostitution and white-collar crime. Gangs are more adaptable, organized, sophisticated, and opportunistic, exploiting new and advanced technology as a means to recruit, communicate discretely, target their rivals, and perpetuate their criminal activity.”

                                                                As to them not knowing anything other then an Urban AO.. Take a look at the border gangs use everyday that stretches thousands of miles of desert. We even have them up here in the last frontier.

                                                                But I digress..

                                                                Bergmann

                                                              • #65831
                                                                Corvette
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Communities everywhere have experienced the negative effects of street gangs. Gang activity in the form of crime and violence has had a devastating effect on the lives of citizens and the safety of our communities. The presence of military-trained gang members (MTGMs) in the community increases the threat of violence to citizens. The problem addressed in this quantitative correlational research study was the apparently growing presence of military-trained gang members in civilian communities. The purpose of the study was to more closely examine the nexus between the perceived presence of military-trained gang members and the perceptions of gang investigators regarding the presence and the size of their jurisdictions, the proximity of their jurisdictions to a military installation, and the extent to which investigators participate in anti-gang activities. An online survey, the Military Gang Perception Questionnaire (MGPQ), was created to collect responses from the 260 active members of the Tennessee Gang Investigators Association (TNGIA). The electronic distribution of the survey was facilitated by Google Documents. A sample size calculation was computed for a multiple regression analysis involving seven predictors, a significance level of .05, a power of 80%, and a medium effect size (f 2 =0.15). That power analysis indicated that N =103 was sufficient to detect this size of effect. The statistical analyses used to test the hypotheses in this study were Pearson and Spearman Correlation Coefficients, independent means t tests, and Ordinary Least Squares (OLS) Regression analysis. Many of the 119 respondents felt anti-gang prohibitions would limit the activity of MTGMs. Respondents reported a mean of 11% of the gang members in their jurisdictions were MTGMs. The Army, Army National Guard, and Army Reserve were identified as the largest sources of MTGMs and the Bloods, Crips, and Gangster Disciples were the gangs most represented. There was a statistically significant positive correlation (ρ=.24, p <.05) between MTGM presence percent score and jurisdiction size. There was also a statistically significant positive correlation (ρ=.28, p <.05) between MTGM presence percent score and the distance from the nearest military installation (computed). Recommendations included that military leadership should conduct cumulative tracking and analysis of gang threats, and apply an all-hands approach to identifying gang members in the military. When an installation shows a decrease in gang-related activity, solutions that led to the decrease should be identified. Military leadership should identify and examine all suspected military gang members and policy makers should identify gangs and related groups as Security Threat Groups. LINK

                                                                  Bergmann

                                                                • #65832
                                                                  Corvette
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    Those clearly are not the folks shown in the video though.

                                                                  • #65833
                                                                    Corvette
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      Those clearly are not the folks shown in the video though.

                                                                      …..and again you assume… You know 100% those guys aren’t military trained just because they are showing off like idiots? You must also know they don’t have a fully loaded LBV off screen?…….. wow… You’re a better man then me..

                                                                      The way they are acting is no different then the bravado and posturing AQ and ISIS use. Just because it urban ghetto style and it might disgust you doesn’t make it any less dangerous.

                                                                      Good luck..

                                                                      Bergmann

                                                                    • #65834
                                                                      Corvette
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Lets just agree to disagree :yes:

                                                                      • #65835
                                                                        Corvette
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          We were disagreeing??? I was just talking. Hadn’t got to the good stuff yet.
                                                                          :scratch:

                                                                          Bergmann

                                                                          ;-)

                                                                        • #65836
                                                                          Max
                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                            I am not sure my writing is very clear, I seem to be perceived as being very scared or utterly indifferent to the subjects of the original post (from Bergmann).
                                                                            I am neither, because these types of folks – with whom I am very, very, very familiar (I have arrested a few hundred of these folks)- are on a bell curve capability scale like any other group of people. Fortunately, the left tail of the bell curve is very large, with a high number of unskilled, untrained, low time preference members.
                                                                            Unfortunately , there is a smaller, but motivated, right tail of trained, aggressive, violent actors with the resources and mindset to ruin anyone’s day.
                                                                            Here’s the thing: until I ( and you) get Intel informing us as to the nature of the enemy, WE MUST ASSESS THE ENEMY AS BEING A MINIMUM of 1% BETTER THAN US, and a member of the very dangerous right tail.
                                                                            Bottom Line Up Front: treat your attackers as though they were as good as you. Personal experience tells me most are not, but I will not bet my life on that.
                                                                            And for the record, Palmettos advice and GWNS’s observation are spot on, in my humble unsolicited opinion.
                                                                            Great topic, Berg!!!!

                                                                          • #65837
                                                                            Corvette
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              Listen Fellas, I am not saying these guys are not a threat.
                                                                              What I am saying is that our training and readiness puts us at a much higher level of readiness than the clowns in the video that it really diminishes that threat and makes it manageable.

                                                                              Again we are not the cowering unarmed urban liberals they are used to.

                                                                            • #65838
                                                                              Corvette
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Thank you Sled..

                                                                                I wasn’t thinking of anyone in particular. Just an undertone I was sensing. I could totally be off on it. Being scared is OK though. Shit bags like this scare me. But its a motivation kinda fear. A certain level, or a certain type of fear is healthy. Keeps you alive, keep you awake, keeps you alert and can keep you from doing stupid stuff… But I also felt a bit of arrogance or ego clouding things in some replies. (again not pointing fingers)

                                                                                I’ve had experience with them too and the inner city/gang mind, what ever you wanna label it doesn’t work like Joe Regulars. Most folks have never encountered it. You description is spot on IMO. Much more analytical and explanatory then I could have come up with.

                                                                                Bergmann

                                                                              • #65839
                                                                                Corvette
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  They get away with what they do and are still alive only due to the fact that americans have to fear the law if they fight back via armed force.

                                                                                  So they dont.

                                                                                  in the WROL situation that factor will be gone and the ROE will be much freer.

                                                                                  Those guys will then have a rude awakening and their fantasies of a raiders life will come to an aprupt end.

                                                                                  Even if the top 1% are competent (and that sounds about realistic) and make themsleves chieftains of a gang they will not possess the depth of junior leadership neccessary to become more than an armed mob.

                                                                                  Its good to be concerned abouyt threats and the opposite ” what me worry?” is certainly wrong as well but I found in the american public sometimes the sense that ‘Criminals” magically” have these extra powers.

                                                                                  Just as an example : We find in the mainstream paradigm that many believe “Oh if you have a gun the criminal can just take it to hurt you”.. if guns where so easy to “just take” then certainly they would be no threat in the hand of the bad guys either because you could just do same…

                                                                                  Criminal low IQ thugs have no magical powers to rise above themselves.
                                                                                  When people can barely speak, it reflects on their inability to think becausae thinking happens using language.

                                                                                  Those capable of only in using low register inexact language cannot think and analyze well.
                                                                                  That’s black letter psychology.
                                                                                  No “Combat Estimate” , nor “terrain Analysis” will happen from folks such as in that video.

                                                                                  Our training is effective and puts us in a position of superiority over much greater numbers than our town.

                                                                                  Training is key, history bears that out time and again and thats why we will be victorious.

                                                                                • #65840
                                                                                  Greg Owens
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    Limited comms skills. That’s funny.

                                                                                  • #65841
                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      Dear Odin and Bragr, and here we go again…No matter what way you say it, you’re still falling back on the assumption that they cannot do this and they cannot do that, and they wont do this and wont do that. How? Where does this come from? Is it arrogance, fear or grasping for hope? Please tell me!? Why do you always fall back on down playing them for your argument as to how they cannot defeat an armed and trained group. On the most primitive basic Neanderthal level I cannot understand this no matter how much I try. Granted Im not very smart but I don’t go to the woods with a rock because I think Ill only run across a lost blind and deaf grizzly cub that I hope has a broke leg. It insanity.

                                                                                      This’s my last reply. I mean that with courtesy and respect. Sincerely. I really wanted to see if I could see your end of it because I like having an open mind and learning but I just don’t get it. Maybe its me. I don’t want to swamp the thread with it anymore. Its boring me so I know it must be boring others.

                                                                                      Good luck.

                                                                                      Bergmann

                                                                                    • #65842
                                                                                      Andrew
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        Sitting on my back porch looking at a town in Mexico. Town has 2 or 3 murders a week, with only about a 25 population. Remember, the average person in Mexico doesn’t have a 2nd Amendment right.

                                                                                        Point is, do not forget the cartels. They are everywhere in the country and some of them do have experience. They also have access to heavier weapons than the guys in the op.

                                                                                        The northeast is loaded with Central Americans.

                                                                                        Best hope is they take each other on first and thin the herd.

                                                                                        JMO.

                                                                                      • #65843
                                                                                        Andrew
                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                          25 thousand population.

                                                                                        • #65844
                                                                                          Corvette
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            I’ll give it to you again.

                                                                                            -Language is the tool of thought.

                                                                                            -If a person cannot express themsleves in an precise way whith that tool it also means they cannot think very well.

                                                                                            -That is well known black letter science and is relevant with these folks.

                                                                                            You showed us a video of people who make it obvious they will never be able to conduct a terrain analysis or combat estimate.

                                                                                            That means they will not be able to operate in a tactically sensible manner.

                                                                                            Also since they are untrained (yes technically that’s a supposition but come on) they will also be unable to make good use of what little ammo they likely possess.

                                                                                            You I have probably shot more ammo in a weekend that those guys have in a lifetime.

                                                                                            Is it possible there might be a guy who is an exception?
                                                                                            yes its possible but it wont change the basic calculus.

                                                                                            So essentially they are untrained as individuals and as a group and likely have poor leadership.

                                                                                            And numbers are not just total numbers but the numbers you can maneuver to the decisive point in time.

                                                                                            These are all things you dont learn by watching “New Jack City”.

                                                                                            Combat power cna be expressed as function of diferent parameters:

                                                                                            (Numbers) x (individual skills) x (leadership) x (equipment/logistics) = Combat power.

                                                                                            For simplicity I left it unweighed since entire books have debated the weighing.

                                                                                            For more simplicity I also left out factors that would likely be in favor of a mutal aid group (terrain familiarity, offense vs defense etc)

                                                                                            We are presented with a gorup that is certain or at least highly likely to be defective in 3 out of 4 of those components of combat power.

                                                                                            that’s not a good start for them.

                                                                                            Even if we presume they will have good numbers it will still be an uphill battle for them with all those other factors in their disfavor and they will suffer a LOT of attrition very quickly..

                                                                                            Are they dangerous because of their willingness to casually murder and that they may bring some numbers to bear?

                                                                                            Yes but we need to put things into perspective as well.

                                                                                            This does not mean your video was not relevant or did not add value.

                                                                                            It is important to show those members who have never had exposure to that mindset how casually others may be willing to murder them.

                                                                                            it should be an incentive to train since that is how we will dominate such “forces”.

                                                                                            Who di I think might be dangerous even to a competent MAG?
                                                                                            Zetas, MS13, and such and perhaps remnants of gov’t organizations policing for profit in WROL.

                                                                                            Those will be the hard nuts to crack.

                                                                                          • #65845
                                                                                            Corvette
                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                              1.4 MILLION gang members in the US Military.. Selling weapons and gear. Even SEALS got caught.. Sad.

                                                                                              Link

                                                                                              Thats a lot..

                                                                                              Army Ranger get into a gun battle with Seattle Drug Dealer.. Pretty interesting. I remember hearing about this back in the day.

                                                                                              LINK

                                                                                              Bergmann

                                                                                            • #65846
                                                                                              Corvette
                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                Never underestimate the power of stupid people in mass. Sheer numbers can overwhelm regardless of their intelligence and training or lack thereof.

                                                                                              • #65847
                                                                                                Corvette
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  Indeed..

                                                                                                  Some urban unrest.

                                                                                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0TrH2m58EU

                                                                                                  Officer Go Fuk Yourself.. Hard to believe they let him walk away still armed.

                                                                                                  Bergmann

                                                                                                • #65848
                                                                                                  Palmetto
                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                    Hmmm. If no one was hurt after 300 rounds were fired between Rangers and gang-bangers then that means one of two scenarios (if the report is accurate):

                                                                                                    1. The Rangers were not trying to hurt anyone and the gang-bangers weren’t trying to hurt anyone.
                                                                                                    Or
                                                                                                    2. The Rangers were not trying to hurt anyone and the gang-bangers weren’t competent enough to hurt anyone.

                                                                                                    There is just no way a handful of Rangers are not going to score at least one casualty in a gunfight like that if it was their goal to do so. They had to have been self-restrained by, as MVF has put it, limiting ROE.

                                                                                                  • #65849
                                                                                                    Corvette
                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                      Here’s another version..

                                                                                                      LINK

                                                                                                      Bergmann

                                                                                                    • #65850
                                                                                                      Max
                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                        1.4 MILLION gang members in the US Military.. Selling weapons and gear. Even SEALS got caught.. Sad.

                                                                                                        Link

                                                                                                        Thats a lot..

                                                                                                        Of the 1.4 million gang members in the United States, MANY are in the US military. According to the link provided.
                                                                                                        Its all hypothetical at this stage and the casual way violence can be inflicted by large groups of the lowest common denominator will not be ignored. I appreciate the different perspectives and have once again been given things to think about in new ways.

                                                                                                        Army Ranger get into a gun battle with Seattle Drug Dealer.. Pretty interesting. I remember hearing about this back in the day.

                                                                                                        LINK

                                                                                                        Bergmann

                                                                                                      • #65851
                                                                                                        Corvette
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          Unfortunately, these guys train a lot more than you’d assume, or expect, it’s just under the radar. The former/current gang banger .mil guys are doing it all the time, but for obvious reasons, they cannot be overt like Max and I are. They aren’t doing it for the money (as a business), they are doing it for La Familia (the gang). Underestimate these types at your own peril! Considering the type of ops they plan on conducting (urban for the most part, and probably mounted) it ain’t rocket science. Just look at the competence level of a lot of the home invasion robbery types in the last couple years, and you’ll see what I mean.

                                                                                                        • #65852
                                                                                                          Corvette
                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                            Language is the tool of thought.

                                                                                                            -If a person cannot express themsleves in an precise way whith that tool it also means they cannot think very well.

                                                                                                            -That is well known black letter science and is relevant with these folks.

                                                                                                            Really wished I saw this last night. Pretty good try..

                                                                                                            Actually notation is also the tool of thought. As are a great many other cerebral skills. HAHAH.. Before you try to insult my intelligence, or your perception of a lack there of, try spelling it correctly. When you’re done there, go up and fix your typo in the side bar. Here, Ill help you. Its LAND NAVIGATION, not LANDNAVIGATION, or simply Land Nav. :mail: and its THEMSELVES and WITH.

                                                                                                            So tell me more about myself anytime you like.

                                                                                                            Bergmann

                                                                                                          • #65853
                                                                                                            Palmetto
                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                              How did this degrade to corrections of spelling and grammar?

                                                                                                              “I really (WISH I HAD SEEN) this last night.”

                                                                                                              Let’s all “jump in on the team and come in for the big win.”

                                                                                                              :good:

                                                                                                            • #65854
                                                                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                                                …relevant with these folks.

                                                                                                                Possible miscommunication?

                                                                                                                …insult my intelligence, or your perception…

                                                                                                                Pretty sure F is talking about video folks not you Bergmann. :yes:

                                                                                                                ————–

                                                                                                                Our training is effective and puts us in a position of superiority over much greater numbers than our town.

                                                                                                                There are significant limits to this Truth though!

                                                                                                                I wouldn’t be in a rush to test this on well trained but yet untested personnel. Choose targets wisely.

                                                                                                                The number crunching of so called kill ratios sound really good when you have say a 10 to 1 ratio, but don’t mean much if facing 20 to 1 odds.

                                                                                                                Even though I do not fear these groups, quantity does have a certain quality. :yes:

                                                                                                              • #65855
                                                                                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                                                  How did this degrade to corrections of spelling and grammar?

                                                                                                                  We’ll see, but I attribute this to simple misread of intent.

                                                                                                                  I have been guilty of this myself here. :-)

                                                                                                                • #65856
                                                                                                                  Max
                                                                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                                                                    Hmmm: Who moderates the moderators?

                                                                                                                    I see a lot of talking at cross purposes here. It’s one of the arguments where everyone actually agrees but insists on arguing anyway.

                                                                                                                    I just had a quick look at the original video:

                                                                                                                    My thoughts:

                                                                                                                    1) Never underestimate your enemy.

                                                                                                                    2) Anyone, however skilled, can go down from a lucky unaimed shot, or be caught by surprise and overwhelmed.

                                                                                                                    3) Don’t underestimate people because of their culture or language, and your unfamiliarity or contempt. The guys in the video are talking eubonics/slang and come across a a bunch of shit bags. But I see on the right what looks like a squared away AR with a VFG and magazine fitted. Who is that guy? It’ not the usual AK you might expect….Intel.

                                                                                                                    4) That being said, I would bring the hammer of Valhalla on these guys if they went operational in my AO. They have no morality or concern with killing, raping etc, and thus I would operate the same and wipe them out with extreme prejudice. I don’t see it as a great challenge, unless they get the drop, or get lucky. However, I am trained and an arrogant elitist!

                                                                                                                    5) Yes, they are not trained , and if you had a trained group, you could prevail without much sweat. You may still take casualties. If your security is not good enough, and they surprise you, the show is over.

                                                                                                                    6) But which if you actually has the training, the team, the PT, the aggression and will to win, the hardcore PT? Most of you don’t. And you are on here trying to suck the wisdom down from the internet, to replace the need to spend dollars on professional training. Sometimes I just want to pull the plug on this forum.

                                                                                                                    So, bottom line, you need training, team and PT, as well as the equipment/weapons to deal with the threat. Why are my classes not full in January/February? Because its cold? Well, fuck you. Get a grip. Do you think the enemy gives a shit?

                                                                                                                    You think you can prevail because you are ‘better’ than these guys. Says who?

                                                                                                                    Discounted January Combat Team Tactics Class

                                                                                                                    Why?

                                                                                                                    Because fuck you, that’s why!

                                                                                                                  • #65857
                                                                                                                    Max
                                                                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                                                                      Wait a minute…do you mean to tell me that you offer classes when it’s NOT cold?

                                                                                                                      Damn! I wish I had known that a year ago.

                                                                                                                      Actually I’ve already been looking up the distance to the TX class. Bit of a drive from Alabama (just like Romney is).

                                                                                                                      I consulted in the prison system for several years. I was shocked at how poorly most of them could fight. Someone who could jab effectively could handle most folks…until they came at him with their little “stickers” freshly sharpened on a concrete floor. Bit of the sewing machine needle and they had all sorts of fluid leakage.

                                                                                                                      Avoid them unless necessary and bring your “A” game.

                                                                                                                      I must say that I am indebted to whomever was the first director to have thugs hold their pistols sideways. That may keep me alive one day.

                                                                                                                    • #65858
                                                                                                                      Max
                                                                                                                      Keymaster
                                                                                                                      • #65859
                                                                                                                        Andrew
                                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                                          If it should hit the fan, in the next two years, given the current Justice Department, whose side will the authorities be on?

                                                                                                                          Given the rhetoric over the last 6 years, I would not bet they would be on the side of the good guys.

                                                                                                                        • #65860
                                                                                                                          Corvette
                                                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                                                            If it should hit the fan, in the next two years, given the current Justice Department, whose side will the authorities be on?

                                                                                                                            Given the rhetoric over the last 6 years, I would not bet they would be on the side of the good guys.

                                                                                                                            As previously mentioned Intel will be needed if lines are not clearly drawn or known. The situation will be fluid, IMO. I wouldn’t advise popping off at just anyone. There are still lots of good people in the world, on all sides.

                                                                                                                            Bergmann

                                                                                                                          • #65861
                                                                                                                            Corvette
                                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                                              I think my earlier comment may have gotten lost in the ether. Remember that gang-bangers operate based on surprise. The knock-out game is a perfect example. It incorporates, speed, surprise and violence of action. It is also “played” where they outnumber their victim. These “youths” always outnumber their victims and usually attack while on their own turf.
                                                                                                                              Therefore, if the SHTF, be wary of pants-saggers in your AO. Thankfully, if you live outside of an urban area (in my AO, mostly white and some Asian), it’s pretty easy to see these guys coming. That takes away the surprise element.

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