Mobility: 'Actions On' Mob Attack

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    • #97999
      Max
      Keymaster

        Mobility: ‘Actions On’ Mob Attack

        With recent events showing that drivers being caught and seriously injured or killed in mob attacks is a real issue, I’m going to pass on some tips on how to survive attacks by a mob while caught in your vehicle. I have seen some posts and advice on this, and although useful, I don’t think they go far enough or cover the reality of how violent these situations can get. Day to day many people feel safe inside their vehicles, hence the many incidents of road rage that probably would not happen face to face, and many also feel safe because they carry a handgun. Bravado will not save you. Some practical advice:

        1) Avoidance (or threat mitigation): This is your primary defense mechanism.  This is macro or micro: if you don’t live anywhere near one of the explosive urban centers, and have no reason to be there, then don’t and you have nothing really to worry about. That isn’t really advice, it’s just stating the obvious. But many have work or travel that will take then through areas that have the potential to be subject to these rioters/mobs and are thus at risk. This relates to the IPB study that Joe is teaching here on the MVT Forum. You need to be plugged into news and current events and have studied your area and routes in order to give you options should something like the Charlotte or Baltimore riots start in your area. It could happen anytime, anywhere, following any kind of shooting-type incident, anything that inflames a mob.

        2) Mobs can be of many types. They can be peaceful, they can be angry, they can be rioting. They may be actively fighting with Police. They may be blocking a road peacefully or violently, or they may be incited to violence by the action of a driver at the road block. They may thus have the potential for extreme violence towards you. The mob may be very localized, or spread out and swarming over a larger area. The mob may have the potential to be equipped with weapons, such as bats, tools, throwing items such as bricks, molotov cocktails , handguns and there have been incidents of shootings with long guns.

        As an example to whet your appetite, here’s some rioting, by folks that know how to get a scrap on:

        3) Who is in your vehicle and what equipment/firearms do you have? Is it just you commuting to work, or you and the wife and kids? This goes back to avoidance. It is recommended that any concealed carry firearm that you have is on your person and not just in the vehicle in case you do end up with the vehicle immobilized and have to get out – you don’t want to leave it. Also consider what many call a ‘truck gun,’ but one that is accessible from your drivers seat. An AR pistol would suffice very well in this role, with a sufficient and easily grabbed supply of magazines. More on this in a bit.

        4) The next thing is self-defense. I don’t care about bravado on social media, and how much you dislike the rioters. You cannot just plow through them because they are in the road. Any action that you take must satisfy self-defense. i.e. it must be a reasonable, proportionate response against an imminent threat, and the only way to can save yourself from anticipated death or grievous bodily harm. Choosing to drive into protesters does not qualify (but read on).

        5) Arriving at some sort of mob in the road qualifies as a ‘road blocked’ mobility situation. Windows up, doors locked, seat belts off. No weapons at this point, but accessible. You will stop going forward and you should look for routes out to the flanks, and if not, look at the option of reversing. It depends on the amount of traffic, but you may or may not be blocked in. You may not be able to reverse. If you have standoff from the crowd, then you have time to try and assess a way to drive out. Be creative, you don’t have to follow road traffic regulations at this point! Jump the median, whatever. If blocked in by other vehicles (by fellow drivers) then you may simply have to wait in your vehicle. Call 911 or have someone else in your vehicle do so, in case this is a flash mob and has not been called in yet.

        6) The road block may simply be people in the road, or it may be augmented with debris or other vehicles. If you are a lone vehicle you may be blocked in deliberately by protester vehicles and / or rioters. So many different permutations.  Nothing you do in your vehicle at this point is fast, whether it be to move through protesters, or to try and move through blocking vehicles. Tip: drive  a decent vehicle with power, such as  truck, preferably with cattle bars over the grill. If you are trapped wit other drivers and see violence directed towards them, perhaps coming your way along the line of traffic, then this is your signal that you are potentially facing death or bodily harm and you must take action. If you have to push vehicles out of the way, aim for a corner (it’s just like a pit maneuver), slow down, hit slowly, and then accelerate as you push. It should spin the vehicle out of the way, assuming yours has the power to move it. You should be a able to move through.

        7) If you are surrounded by a  mob, you have your windows up and your doors locked. Remember that a mob may not be dismayed by the showing of weapons or even the firing of shots. Do not open windows or get out of the vehicle. Remember that the mob is likely armed as well. The best thing to do here is to push your way through the crowd at a slow speed, until you can get space and drive away. Remember that the more people you hurt, the more you may incite the mob. Also remember that as the driver, your weapon is the vehicle, and that is primarily what you are thinking of using right now. If you jam up a bunch of rioters under your front wheels, not only will it impede your escape, but it will incite the mob like crazy and they may be trying to mob / flip your vehicle, or even molotov cocktail you. At the least, they will be smashing windows and trying to get at you. If you can’t go forward, go backwards. If you jam up bodies under you front, go back, or even back and fill to try and get out.

        8) If you have people hacking at your windows, then just ignore them as you try and drive out. You can do this until the integrity of the windows is lost. The windshield should last a while, but the side windows will go quick. If you are not moving at this point, or moving slowly, you may face people leaning in to try and get you out, punching you and whatever. This is where, if you cannot get the vehicle going through the mob, you will have to go to guns. Shoot them away from the vehicle, but try to keep going, speeding up when you hit open space. If you have a passenger, they can be holding a weapon in preparation for having to shoot anyone that compromises the vehicles interior, or who threatens you with a firearm.

        9) With shots fired, the mob may run or they may get even more crazy. They may pull weapons themselves. Again, if you can drive the vehicle out, do so. If you are truly stuck, then you may have to exit the vehicle. This is where you have to be able to generate enough fire to push the mob back. Depending on the situation, a handgun may not cut it. This is where something like an AR pistol could come in, becasue if you are able to generate a massive weight of fire at the attacking mob, you may be able to create space to escape. That would be stacking bodies time. You will need more mags to throw on, something like a mag bandoleer kept with the rifle. This is the extreme situation. The mob may follow you, and you may have to fight to safety, or to a strong point. What if you have family with you? Not a good day. Your mindset now is kill to live. Better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6, etc.

        Think this is a little extreme and surely a mob would run as soon as you brandish your trusty 1911? Check this video out. These two guys were Army Signallers, not any sort of special duty personnel. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time:

        These clips are not intended to spark a political l discussion over Northern Ireland. If you are wondering why the crowd acted as they did in the situation above, it is becasue the funeral was for one of those killed in the incident in the video below. Here, many of the crowd are not at all intimidated by a handgun and grenades:

        https://youtu.be/3xUFKLIpMsk

        In conclusion, I will state again the avoidance is your best policy, which comes from a good assessment of your AO. Be prepared with weapons in your vehicle in case it does go bad. Try and escape with minimum damage to the mob, if you can. However, be ready to bring the violence if that is what is needed to stay alive.

      • #98000
        Robert
        Participant

          Excellent.

          Keep the car moving if at all possible.

          It’s likely NOT going to be about getting out of the car with your rifle and playing hero. It’s going to be about avoiding trouble and keeping moving. Your car doesn’t matter, you can replace it, you may even be able to get insurance to pay for it. Your family you can’t replace. Like Max said, jump the median, drive on the side walk, whatever.

          Keep in mind rioters are typically just opportunists. If nothing else give them something else to follow or go for. $200. cash in 1’s, 5’s and 10’s flung up into the air behind you as you haul butt will distract a damn good many of them. And $200. is a lot cheaper than a lawyer.

        • #98001
          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
          Moderator

            Like Max said, jump the median, drive on the side walk, whatever.

            Having a vehicle that is capable of this is important.

            You don’t need some lifted 4×4, but you don’t want some vehicle that is so low that your easily high centered either.

            A UK Officer I worked with recommended keeping side windows rolled down just enough so they wiggle a little bit, he claimed it reduced low impact shattering of safety glass. Seemed to make sense, but can anyone here confirm this?

          • #98002
            riflemaniv
            Participant

              Like Max said, jump the median, drive on the side walk, whatever.

              Having a vehicle that is capable of this is important.

              You don’t need some lifted 4×4, but you don’t want some vehicle that is so low that your easily high centered either.

              A UK Officer I worked with recommended keeping side windows rolled down just enough so they wiggle a little bit, he claimed it reduced low impact shattering of safety glass. Seemed to make sense, but can anyone here confirm this?

              I was just going to ask this also. I had read that if you roll your side windows down about 1/2″ they are harder to shatter because they will flex during impact.

            • #98003
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                This is where something like an AR pistol could come in, becasue if you are able to generate a massive weight of fire at the attacking mob, you may be able to create space to escape.

                What thoughts if any on the thirty round magazines for pistols in this type of scenario?

                Glock 17/19 and the Beretta 92/M9 have factory thirty round magazines available that are reliable. Some in the center console or glove box?

              • #98004
                Thomas
                Participant

                  What thoughts if any on the thirty round magazines for pistols in this type of scenario?

                  Glock 17/19 and the Beretta 92/M9 have factory thirty round magazines available that are reliable. Some in the center console or glove box?

                  Good question. This is about generating massive firepower so the 30 round pistol mags give that capability.

                  The rifle has the advantage of velocity. Being able to fire and not reload so frequently or carry so many pistol mags is a great advantage.

                • #98005
                  First Sergeant
                  Moderator

                    What thoughts if any on the thirty round magazines for pistols in this type of scenario?

                    Glock 17/19 and the Beretta 92/M9 have factory thirty round magazines available that are reliable. Some in the center console or glove box?

                    I know some guys that carry the high capacity pistol mags in their get home bags for this reason.

                    Biggest problem you run into is you lose some mobility with one of them in a pistol.

                    One thing to keep in mind. Don’t just have the pistol out laying in the seat, shoved under your leg or just shoved in between the seats. It needs to be secured. When your vehicle impacts something, things have tendency to move around. The 1986 Miami shootout is the prime example of why not to do this.

                    FILO
                    Signal Out, Can You Identify
                    Je ne regrette rien
                    In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                  • #98006
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      The video Max put up “Corporals Wood and Howes killed by IRA 1988” I note that when gunfire is audible most of the mob runs, even if temporarily. I suspect this would hold true under most situations. Keeping up the volume of fire until you can egress would seem both necessary and difficult to maintain if solo.

                      First Sergeant’s mention on secured weapon is a very important point.

                      The 1986 Miami shootout is the prime example of why not to do this.

                      :good:

                      I remember when the American Handgunner issue with the Ayoob Files on that came out on that incident, made a big impact on me.

                      Not to mention secured eye wear if required.

                    • #98007
                      hellokitty
                      Participant

                        I once heard Tom Givens give a lecture on the Miammi shootout with pics and video. There are so many lessons to learn from that shootout.

                        HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                        HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                        FOF X3
                        OPFOR X2
                        CLC X2
                        RIFLEMAN

                      • #98008
                        RRS
                        Participant

                          Avoid it is the best COA. But I’m wired a little tighter than most people, most people it seems have a normalcy bias towards non conflict here in America. I’ll bet in NI most people had a bias towards conflict and knew where it would be and how it would transpire.

                        • #98009
                          Max
                          Keymaster

                            The 1/2 inch window rolled down thing: thanks for just confirming to me the shite you all read on the interwebz, reposted by WRSA. Deliberately left out to see who would go there first. Just commented on the TQ post about this.

                            This is an example of people trying to appear to be clever, giving the impression of giving out super useful information, whereas in fact it is bait and switch total BS.

                            Two things:

                            1) Youw indows are going to go if surrounded by a mob.

                            2) If you knew you were going to have a mob scenario, you would avoid it. Who the fuck has time to make sure all the windows in the car are wound down exactly 1/2 inch? If you go too far, you give an attacker the ability to get fingers in and even force the window down. They will just smash it anyway.

                            Stop getting distracted be so called clever shite, and focus on the important parts of the article, whcih will keep you alive. This is a similar example to when students at class are trying to get us to state absolutes, and overa-nalysing. Analysis-paralysis, over thinking. Master the basics, understand the big picture, and move on to surviving.

                            I can pretty much guess that the guy who wrote one of the articles I know mentioned this, is only talking theoretical knowledge and has never been in a mob/riot scenario, or specifically trained for such vehicle drills. Cops out of their lane….

                            Oh, by the way, I heard that if you lower the pressure in your tires by 3 PSI, it makes it easier to run over supine rioters stuck under your front bumper….

                          • #98010
                            wesmc
                            Participant

                              Advantages of “cracking” your windows:

                              1) prevent the car from exploding on a hot, sunny day.

                              2) Save your life in the event of a riot.

                              What else??? :wacko:

                            • #98011
                              JustARandomGuy
                              Participant

                                Well, late to the party but….
                                Plain ol’ common sense like the original post up there is why I hang around here, and one or two other specific sites online, and pretty much have ditched the others. :good:

                                Like Max said, jump the median, drive on the side walk, whatever.
                                ………….
                                Having a vehicle that is capable of this is important.

                                You don’t need some lifted 4×4, but you don’t want some vehicle that is so low that your easily high centered either.

                                :good:

                                4 wheel drive option ain’t a bad idea either. I remember some footage from a previous riot/”social gathering” out on a highway- cars backed up for miles.
                                Meanwhile… to at least one side of the road it was wide open flat[appearing] ground. Apparently it occurred to no-one in that line of vehicles to make use of it. They could have simply pulled out and driven around the mob.

                                Per the extended mags in pistols, or going to a long arm of some sort- There was an interesting discussion on this topic on another forum that really made a good point- that being RE-concealability.
                                IE, the ability to go from guns out to regular-Joe-looking civi.

                                I think Max’s comment above about the AR pistol or SBR is spot on.
                                Think about it- you have to go to guns, and you’re lucky enough to get some space away from the mob, but in the course of pushing through, your vehicle is disabled, and you have to bail.
                                It makes a hell of a lot of sense to be able to stick your pistol back under your shirt in CCW mode, or put your rifle in your “get home” back, or a dedicated “SBR bag”, instead of walking down Main St. USA with a slung fullsize rifle, pack, chest rig, etc., given everyone’s current fears of active shooters and all…
                                Sure would suck to get shot by nearby Popo with itchy trigger fingers due to the event you just escaped from.

                                Now, per the issue of running over folk with your vehicle-weapon, and such…
                                Where some folks have gotten the idea of running through an ENTIRE mob of a couple hundred/thousand people I don’t know, and even I can tell that’s just not possible in a normal sized vehicle. And of course, as stated you run into certain moral/legitimacy of defensive user issues.
                                However…

                                9) With shots fired, the mob may run or they may get even more crazy…..Think this is a little extreme and surely a mob would run as soon as you brandish your trusty 1911? Check this video out….

                                I watched the “Corporal Wood and Howes” vid, and noticed the EXACT same thing I’ve seen in pretty much every bit of riot footage from here in the US- guns come out, and/or at the first few shots, there’s an initial scattering of the “participants”.

                                So here’s my question/observation:
                                At 0:45 when the guns come into play and there’s an immediate and marked reduction in the number of surrounding persons, wouldn’t right there be the time to make use of the vehicle, drive like mad, and if anyone still wants to get in the way, well.. to bad for them.

                                Yes… the mob come back crazier than ever, and yes, I did hear the part about the rear blockage due to other vehicles on the road. Perhaps if they had reversed over the curb and through someones front yard?
                                Anyway, I’m not going to try and armchair the video- what happened happened, but my point is, it seems generally when the first few shots go off, you have a short opening to make a fast, hyper-aggressive break for “anywhere but here”.
                                Repel boarders and GTFO.
                                :unsure:

                              • #98012
                                wheelsee
                                Participant

                                  JARG,

                                  I think a lot of people don’t fully think things through (I know, sarcasm)…. ran up on a major wreck that had ALL public lanes blocked (FD, LE, and EMS already on-scene), but the HOV (high occupancy vehicle – 2 or more people in vehicle) lane was wide open with no one going. I (in a 1-person truck) took the HOV and was only 10 minutes late to work…..BUT, felt guilty driving in the HOV and wondering if I’d get a ticket ($250 fine here and they actively LOOK for violators).

                                  Somehow in my raising, I was raised to “follow the law” and even in my 50s, feel guilty when I break it……I’m working on that…..read the book “The Survivor’s Club” by Glen Sherwood……eye-opening, people “staying in line” while they’re in the dying process, just because of what we’ve been taught……

                                  Try rock climbing (in a gym)…..took my daughter when she was little….she got stuck and we discussed our options….ends up we had to back down a bit to go on a different route which proved successful….point – don’t get tunnel-visioned into only going forward…..to quote Maj Gen Oliver Smith (1st Marine Div, Chosin Reservoir), “Retreat, hell! … We’re not retreating, we’re just advancing in a different direction.”…..

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