K9's

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    • #96554
      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
      Moderator

        What role; if any, does your K9 play in your plans?

      • #96555
        Corvette
        Participant

          I don’t have a “real” dog so my 8 pound dust mop will be a wapping alarm are unknown individuals and that’s at best. :negative:

        • #96556
          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
          Moderator

            Nothing wrong with a home alarm dog. :yes:

          • #96557
            trailman
            Participant

              We have 5 Embden and Chinese attack geese. Anything comes close to the house they sound off. That enables the 85# Choc attack lab who then launches a chemical attack of happy pee all over the intruders as she beats them to death with her tail. We feed the bodies to the pigs. They eat anything. B-)

            • #96558
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                I have German Shepherds.

                One of my GSD’s is the Sentry, if someone comes within about 10 yards (sometimes further if something strange/unusual) of the house this will get a silent body language alert. If the sentry barks (very unusual) it needs to be checked out as something is definitely wrong. I’ve been silently awoke at night by the sentry to find someone on property. When exiting house if something has changed from last time, there will be an alert.

                Another of my GSD’s is a Scout Dog in Training, for my purposes a Scout uses it’s superior senses to silently detect unseen (to me) potential threats whether people or devices. Unfortunately there isn’t much in the way books on this kind of training, most of what I have found is from Vietnam era. Of course as an advanced hobbyist I am not sure if my training skills are up to it. Only time will tell if the Scout will ever be ready for real use, but worst case another Sentry isn’t terrible. :-)

                The Sentry and Scout roles overlap in many ways, the Sentry is just more alert at home than Scout normally.

                Although fun, bite work is not a priority as I consider their use as a detection sensor/alarm to be far more valuable than risking their injury.

                I currently do not have a Tracking Dog; but I am screening a new addition, not sure if I need that ability though.

                And of course they are great companions. :yes:

              • #96559
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                Moderator

                  Good video.

                • #96560
                  Thomas
                  Participant

                    Go for the tracking dog. They have many uses.

                    I am for the first time in my life sans dog. When I do get another one, I want a tracking dog.

                  • #96561
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      I have trained tracking dogs in the past.

                      My current priority is experimenting with the Scout concept, I am convinced it could save lives in a SHTF scenario, and it has been proved in the past.

                      The question I am working on is how feasible is it for the hobbyist to home train a Scout Dog.

                      As well as availability of Training Scent packs that are affordable. They have a relatively short shelf life and are expensive. The ability to replicate explosive scents without real explosives is important.

                      For now alerting to people and civilian legal gear will have to suffice.

                    • #96562
                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                      Moderator

                        Here are some possible uses for your K9.

                        Can’t make the 2-Miler due to a disability?

                        Alternate bugout with kids?

                        Resupply?

                        Really big load?

                        Well maybe too much? :-)

                      • #96563
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          The recent failed hostage rescue attempt in Yemen was apparently kyboshed by a barking dog.

                          SEALs Got Within 100 Yards Of Yemen Compound, Thwarted By Barking Dog

                        • #96564
                          Corvette
                          Participant

                            Freeman, thats a real relevant article you posted thank you :)

                          • #96565
                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                            Moderator

                              The recent failed hostage rescue attempt in Yemen was apparently kyboshed by a barking dog.

                              This shows both the value of K9’s and knowledge of them for planning and avoidance.

                              With all this additional focus on PT remember K9’s make excellent Running/Rucking partners. :yes:

                              Just remember; particularly with Shepherds, not to do long distance when they are too young, it can be hard on their joints.

                              They also need PT if you plan on using them beyond home.

                            • #96566
                              jason
                              Participant

                                Great alarm dog but no training beyond sit, stay, role over, down, etc.

                              • #96567
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  Great alarm dog but no training beyond sit, stay, role over, down, etc.

                                  Shoot that’s more than most peoples K9’s. :yes:

                                  Great looking Shepherd.

                                  Both alarm and visual deterrent are important roles in my opinion and basic obedience training is sufficient for this.

                                • #96568
                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                  Moderator

                                    Here’s a video from 1969. Typical of that era, but still informative.

                                    Scout dogs reduced causalities rates on patrols in Korea by 65%.

                                    —————————

                                    Mike Ritland, founder of the Warrior Dog Foundation, Trikos International, and author of Trident K9 Warriors talks about the history of military working dogs and how the mission has changed since working dogs first entered the scene for the US Military SOF in Vietnam. Also the disposition of retired MWD’s.

                                    Mike discusses Nutrition and how that translates to overall K9 fitness and basic Bite Work Demo. The prepackaged foods are good examples, but there are others as well as owner made.

                                    Nothing Earth shattering about above, but is of interest to those into working K9’s. :yes:

                                  • #96569
                                    Robert
                                    Participant

                                      Beautiful dogs in this thread, I love GSD’s.

                                      Some a-hole hunter capped one of ours recently, the wife’s dog. I wasn’t home at the time but the family went out in force afterwards searching for it/him. Three sets of human eyes, 4 sets of dog eyes and ears and thermal unfortunately could not find her. Broke the wife’s heart. No barking before hand, just a shot heard and then whimpers then two minutes later the 3 others ran home.

                                      GWNS- if you raise dogs like this please PM me, I’d be interested in one. We are now down one in our pack and it’s not the same.

                                    • #96570
                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                      Moderator

                                        From “any thoughts on a load bearing cart?”

                                        Here is a video of what I am imagining, except replace the dogs with people.

                                        This is a different video from Manufacturer site.

                                        How about increased K9 power?

                                        At the very least a great way to exercise K9’s, looks fun too.

                                      • #96571
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide! :yes:

                                          Belgian Malinois are a high energy option, but only for someone that can provide the training and exercise they need to thrive!

                                        • #96572
                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                          Moderator

                                            K9’s can be trained to do almost anything!

                                            Well almost!


                                            :-)

                                          • #96573
                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                            Moderator

                                              Here is an outstanding video showing MWD’s in OEF.

                                              Glory Hounds
                                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5oSvXAUBI
                                              Filmed in Afghanistan, the two-hour special profiles four military dogs and their handlers in the war zone as they locate insurgents and dangerous explosives.

                                            • #96574
                                              Max
                                              Keymaster

                                                (Reply not by Max, by deleted user)

                                                A friend of mine was an MP in the Army and spend 18 months total in Iraq. He was there as part of an explosive sniffing dog team. He got sent home for bad injuries and for bad bad PTSD. After a lot of letter writing, emails, phone calls to his senator and the news getting involved he eventually got to take his dog with him once he got discharged.

                                                One day during a barbecue he gave us a demonstration of what the dog could do. He had one of us hid a pistol magazine that was filled with rounds at one end of our cul-de-sac. He didn’t know where the magazine was accept that it was down that way. He then told the dog to go look for something down there. With in one minute she had ran down to the end and sniffed out the magazine which was hidden under some dirt by a bush.

                                                I had always heard about how good the dogs noises were but didn’t realize just how good until I saw that demonstration.

                                              • #96575
                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                Moderator

                                                  I work with rehabilitating K9’s that have been abused or involved in bites (mostly GSD’s, but other breeds in extreme cases too). Ones I deem are unsafe for general adoption after extensive work, observation, and training I either find a suitable special adopter or they become part of my home.

                                                  These K9’s seem to bond more strongly with their family (pack) than what would normally be the case. In many cases this demonstrates many of the Scout traits in a rough form without formal training.

                                                  I have been working with some of these to see if this might be an accelerated path to a workable Scout Dog.

                                                  I’ve mentioned this briefly before. One of my GSD’s is aware of the slightest change on my property. If you were to place a small object that was not there previously, it will get an immediate alert pointing in the direction. Now with a command that K9 will take me to that object, it truly is amazing how little it takes to alert that GSD. Obviously one of the the Guards.

                                                  Another has demonstrated an uncanny ability to pick up on items or people that are out of place (don’t belong there) such as in the woods or someone attempting to hide. Scout in training.

                                                  These are just two examples.

                                                  Most likely this is related to hyper-vigilance related to K9 PTSD. By praising/rewarding these traits I’ve been able to retain these skills even after the K9 regains confidence and becomes mentally stable, even in public.

                                                  Of course you may go through many dogs before finding ones with these traits, fostering these dogs provides this pool. Not to mention the satisfaction of helping these dogs, which has always been my primary motivation.

                                                  I’ve had one’s that were so terrified that they were losing control of their bodily functions when approached, that later become confident trained normal dogs in as little as 3 to 6 months.

                                                  The ones involved in bites take the most time, since I will not release them unless I am 100% sure they will be safe around people. These can take 6 months beyond the normal rehabilitation with zero aggression failures.

                                                  It should be without saying, but do not attempt to rehabilitate dogs involved in bites without experience, particularly if you have children or even an a uncooperative spouse.

                                                • #96576
                                                  Max
                                                  Keymaster

                                                    (Reply not by Max, by deleted user)

                                                    From “any thoughts on a load bearing cart?”

                                                    Yeah, the Vietnamese already invented the first load bearing, man powered cart. We call it the bicycle.

                                                  • #96577
                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                    Moderator

                                                      Yeah, the Vietnamese already invented the first load bearing, man powered cart. We call it the bicycle.

                                                      Funny, that’s what I said in that Thread, any thoughts on a load bearing cart? :-)

                                                      Bicycles have a proven history.

                                                      Note the seat extension pole and handle bar extension to ease balance and control. It would be a simple matter to lengthen brake cables to aid in use over variable terrain.

                                                      The Chinese Wheelbarrow

                                                      Although the Chinese Wheelbarrow clearly predates the use of bicycles. :yes:

                                                      When I made this post the BBCodes to format content were down, so I didn’t post the link.

                                                      Since this thread was about K9’s I figured I would post an alternative to give options, possibly for a moderately disabled Auxiliary to use for logistics etc…

                                                      K9’s love to have a job, so I posted some of the many possible uses.

                                                      Obviously some are more practical than others depending on situation.

                                                    • #96578
                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                      Moderator

                                                        Another look at a topic that may have use for some.

                                                      • #96579
                                                        zeerf
                                                        Participant

                                                          Just saw a post on this over on FB (may be posted another place here but could not find it from my quick search so apologies if I missed it)

                                                          Family comes home to find blood splatter after dog attacks intruder

                                                          Family comes home to find blood splatter after dog attacks intruder

                                                          Guard dog: german shepherd attacks intruder, family returns to find blood on the walls

                                                          :good: I need to get one!

                                                        • #96580
                                                          heathplumb
                                                          Participant

                                                            This is an area of great interest to me. My wife loves animals so having a dog or 2 or 3 is a given. So I flanked the wife’s idea of another rescue and found Pixel. He is amazing. Obedient after only beginner level training and showing signs that he will make a fine tracker. Looking to move to advance obedience soon. We have a great trainer here in Baltimore at K9 Koncepts. Knowledgeable staff, decent facility, and And like minded ideology in training techniques. I also agree with many of the comments in this thread that having a companion like most working dogs can be an important addition to a family.

                                                          • #96581
                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                            Moderator

                                                              Guard dog: german shepherd attacks intruder, family returns to find blood on the walls

                                                              Excellent article! Always good to hear these stories.

                                                              In my house the sheer number of dogs would most likely prevent escape for a sole intruder, it’s doubtful they would survive due to the pack mentality involved and the nature of my K9’s being mostly rehab failures.

                                                              …found Pixel.

                                                              Congratulations! :good:

                                                              Sounds like a great addition to your family.

                                                              If K9’s can fit into a persons lifestyle they make wonderful additions to your family not to mention the increased capabilities they provide.

                                                              Obviously being solo much of the time leaves me vulnerable.

                                                              This is regardless of my training, lone wolves are dangerous but still weaker than a pack.

                                                              Adding K9’s to this equation changes this situation dramatically, particularly in my case since we are talking four or more at home and I try to take two with me when out and about.

                                                            • #96582
                                                              Keeper
                                                              Participant

                                                                We got 2 Belgian Malinois great dogs and super loyal and smart so far we haven’t had a single mailman, ups , FedEx or sales person brother us and people cross the street when we walk them

                                                              • #96583
                                                                zeerf
                                                                Participant

                                                                  and found Pixel

                                                                  Pixel is in good hands CTT battle buddy, great to hear!
                                                                  Looks to be a great rescue.

                                                                  Adding K9’s to this equation changes this situation dramatically

                                                                  I can imagine and can’t wait to get to a better situation that would be a better fit for at least 2 dogs.

                                                                  We got 2 Belgian Malinois great dogs and super loyal and smart so far we haven’t had a single mailman, ups , FedEx or sales person brother us and people cross the street when we walk them

                                                                  Awesome dogs you have sir, just hope these are not the ones you kept mentioning about liking the peanut butter.

                                                                • #96584
                                                                  Keeper
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    “”Awesome dogs you have sir, just hope these are not the ones you kept mentioning about liking the peanut butter.””

                                                                    the same that why they are such great dogs
                                                                    lol

                                                                  • #96585
                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                    Moderator

                                                                      It’s been awhile since I updated this Thread and with the discussion in the Thread Houston SWAT/PD raid with casualties I thought it a good time.

                                                                      Some quotes from above linked Thread…

                                                                      5 UC Narcotics LEO’s breeched the front door with a shotgun(#5 man w/ Hatton rds),#1 man began entry and a pitbull attacked him, #1 man also had a shotgu…

                                                                      An attacking dog is going to fuck with that organized step center/penetrating step. But he needs to keep going.

                                                                      Now, if #1 was OODA-fucked by killing the dog, and he missed the guy at 11, he should still be going left…

                                                                      I came across the most muscular pitbull I’ve ever seen (~120#, short) while visiting an animal shelter. I noticed he had staples all across his neck and so I asked the handler what was up. It turned out he belonged to a drug dealer. During the raid, both the male dog and his female attacked the police. Both shot, female died, he survived. It was crazy to see the dog walking around like a boss, having taken such a wound.

                                                                      Obviously K9’s aren’t bulletproof, but there are many stories of K9’s taking an incredible amount of damage and staying in the fight.

                                                                      For those with the resources there is body armor and even plate carriers for K9’s.

                                                                      Just like us, weight and heat injury are possible.

                                                                      Doggles for eye protection and mutt muffs for hearing protection.

                                                                      Obviously the mutt muffs are currently a training item as you lose much capability, but electronic ones are being developed that take K9 extended hearing spectrum into account.

                                                                      Want your K9 partner to be real “high speed?”

                                                                      How about a helmet with integrated helmet, camera mount, and set up for comms for remote commands! ;-)

                                                                      K9’s can truly complicate this type of entry and even a few lap dogs could be very distracting to include a trip hazard.

                                                                      Imagine coming through the door and be greeted by half a dozen or so K9’s (my house)! ;-) Fortunately I am not the norm and not a likely target of such interest.

                                                                      Imagine being on the receiving end of this?

                                                                      OODA what? B-)

                                                                      The presence of the dog would have given the homeowners notice there were people outside of the house. My dog goes absolutely ape shit when she sees or hears someone outside of the door.

                                                                      Note: For this discussion I am certainly neutral regarding the alleged wrong doing of either side regarding that incident. My goal is too emphasize the benefits of K9’s for armed citizens.

                                                                      K9’s can be a force multiplier for most and even though I prefer full size dogs, do not underestimate the potential value of small alarm dogs. Even lap dogs have greater sensory ability than people.

                                                                    • #96586
                                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                      Moderator

                                                                        Giving our latest discussion I thought this a worthy addition.

                                                                        Interactions with Law Enforcement.

                                                                        K9’s have been killed by LEO’s due to various situations, sometimes without justification. Remember few have any knowledge of K9 behavior, some are scared of K9’s, some have larger issues.

                                                                        A little lap dog was recently shot by a LEO allegedly for acting aggressive, caught in video, and led to subsequent firing of that LEO.

                                                                        Let’s look at some considerations and potential problems.

                                                                        When interacting with LEO’s when out and about with my K9’s, the first thing I ask is to secure my K9’s. This could range from placing them in vehicle to attaching leads to a secure object and creating some distance between them and LEO.

                                                                        This has never been a problem and LEO’s have not had issue, but then again I wasn’t the subject of criminal interest by them.

                                                                        I consider the idea of any type interaction with LEO’s at my home to be potentially dangerous.

                                                                        LEO’s by their training can want to dominate/control a situation, in other words take control with authority.

                                                                        Many of us here even though we are Law abiding, are the type to not be pushed around by anyone, we demand respect. So even though we will comply in most situations, we may not like it.

                                                                        So even though I don’t have any animosity towards Law Enforcement, the danger exists because of two factors:

                                                                        1.) My dogs as a result of their rehab backgrounds have varying degrees of obedience, particularly when in the whole pack group. When out and about I normally have at least one that’s solid in control, but one maybe in his/her earlier phase of rehabilitation, but at home there could be several that are not ready for obedience in a high stress situation.

                                                                        So a take charge attitude by strangers and dogs read on my “not like it” body language (dogs are masters of this). This may make K9’s highly agitated, which would make LEO’s agitated, leading to further agitation on my part.

                                                                        See how a wrong move could escalate out of control?

                                                                        2.) I am armed.

                                                                        So with these factors…

                                                                        With some notice and some manners I can prevent mixing these factors in a uncontrolled environment.

                                                                        Despite my capabilities, physical size, training, and I am armed, many of my K9’s consider me to be a fragile thing that needs protecting. ;-)

                                                                        They are not impressed by others outside of our pack! :-)

                                                                        The German Shepherd “stare” can be unnerving for the uninitiated.

                                                                        K9’s can not make a distinction between a criminal and LEO.

                                                                        So aggressive actions will be met with aggression.

                                                                        Somethings worth considering even with small alarm dogs.

                                                                        Note: LEO K9’s even complicate things more!

                                                                      • #96587
                                                                        JohnnyMac
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          I just saw that video and it had me “triggered”. It was like watching a kid get shot. I’m amazed how relatively calm the home owner was.

                                                                          Even more amazing, the dog lived.

                                                                          LEO got fired. I really hope he doesn’t get picked up by another county/town.

                                                                        • #96588
                                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                          Moderator

                                                                            I’m amazed how relatively calm the home owner was

                                                                            That’s another scary aspect to a encounter like that.

                                                                            My dogs are family, I can go days without interacting with people, but my dogs are always there. Some are with me the vast majority of time even when out.

                                                                            Between my dogs and me such an attack could escalate into something quite ridiculous! :wacko:

                                                                            All because some idiot slipped through the cracks in the hiring process.

                                                                          • #96589
                                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                            Moderator

                                                                              Don’t forget the gunfight that led to the Ruby Ridge standoff was preceded by U.S. Marshals provoking a response by Weaver’s dogs. This led Kevin Harris and Weaver’s 14-year-old son Samuel to follow dog to investigate, suspecting a game animal not US Marshals in full camouflage tactical kit. The Marshals shot the dog, which provoked Samuel to return fire, leaving a 14 year old boy and one US Marshal dead.

                                                                              The rest is history. :wacko:

                                                                              Of course there where many factors leading to that situation, but is illustrative to the giving discussion.

                                                                            • #96590
                                                                              mdbjjc
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                https://www.protectiondogs.com

                                                                                These are amazing dogs

                                                                              • #96591
                                                                                JohnnyMac
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  Anecdote:

                                                                                  My wife and I were just sitting down watching a movie and the doorbell rings. Dogs bark as usual.

                                                                                  We weren’t expecting company, and it’s on the later side. I approach the door cautiously (thinking swat raid, since it’s been on my mind lately, NOT that I’m expecting one!) and look through the peephole. I don’t see anything, but the dogs key off my body language and start ramping up the barking. My next thought was, maybe it’s a delivery requiring signature. I crack open the door and at this point both dogs are at my heels barking up a storm.

                                                                                  It turns out to be a food delivery guy. He gets one look at me (I accidentally left my hood up…it’s cold!), hears and sees two barking pitbulls trying to get between me and him, and as soon as he hears my words “wrong house” he backs up and literally runs away.

                                                                                  While pretty humorous, the chances are high that in any serious situation, any sort of intimidating breed is getting shot on sight by a determined adversary…maybe making someone less determined reconsider. Something to think about.

                                                                                • #96592
                                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                    ..thinking swat raid, since it’s been on my mind lately, NOT that I’m expecting one!

                                                                                    Funny how the mind works, I found myself a little extra alert myself from that discussion. Of course the dogs pick up on it and the whole house is on edge. ;-)

                                                                                    …any serious situation, any sort of intimidating breed is getting shot on sight by a determined adversary…maybe making someone less determined reconsider.

                                                                                    The visual deterrent is there, but it’s not just determined that will push envelope. Imagine the multiple dog attack video when four K9’s are going nuts wanting to kick butt, I’ve been in that situation with five GSD’s teeth beared going nuts and still have people close the distance with me telling those people to stop.

                                                                                    Some are just stupid!

                                                                                    Though I if I ever have to shoot in that situation I figure I have a good defense. If five snarling GSD’s don’t deter you, you must be up to no good! ;-)

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