Houston SWAT/PD raid with casualties

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    • #96174
      wheelsee
      Participant

        How many times did Max talk about TTPs??? How many of us got caught in the doorway or just inside??

        The below is from another site (closed) but seemed to have good information. I have NOT verified it.

        Beginning of copy——

        There was 14 LEOs on target, entry team was 5 UC Narcotic LEOs w/ 9 Patrol LEOs as backup to serve a no knock Narcotics warrant after CIs had made 2 black tar heroin buys at the target house

        2 UC LEOs did a recce early that day to confirm target but there were no eyes on target prior to serving the warrant to give any real time intell

        5 UC Narcotics LEO’s breeched the front door with a shotgun(#5 man w/ Hatton rds),#1 man began entry and a pitbull attacked him, #1 man also had a shotgun, #1 stopped just inside the door to swack the dog(dog KIA) & was shot by white trash man from the 11 position 10ft away while still static, once hit #1 man feel right 3ft onto a couch where white trash women was seated.

        #2,3 & 4 had no flow & were choked up just inside the entry point behind #1 when #2 & #3 were hit once each by white trash man to there 11 while both were engaging white trash women to there 3, who was trying to get the #1 man’s shotgun when he fell on the couch(white trash women got swacked KIA by #2 & #3 man)

        With still no flow & 3 LE hit the #4 man pushed left & engaged white trash man & #5 man(breecher) made entry & got shot in the face by white trash man in the choke point.

        At this point everyone went full mag dump & white trash man caught one in the mouth & he was KIA

        White trash man was a long time drug user & seller he was also a Army Veteran, he used a corner wall as durable concealment with a good line of sight & his gun was Smith & Wesson 686 Revoler which he shot 5 of 6 rounds with 4 hits, the 5th officer injured(#4 man) suffered a knee injury

        With stuff like this I prefer to refrain from commenting on a depts TTPs but this is a exception, I would hope there AAR & subsequent lessons learned would benefit the dept but this dept has a long history of brushing off AARs & repeating poor TTPs regardless of results

        End of copy_______-

      • #96175
        Lloyd
        Participant

          I’m no expert, but one thing that has really stood out to me when watching videos of cops doing no-knock raids is that they often seem VERY complacent. Often the guy(s) at the front of the stack look pretty switched on, but by the time to get to the back of the stack, you see rifles lazily hanging from slings, or even leaning against the wall while the dudes at the rear of the stack are shooting the breeze about where they’re going to go for lunch, or whatever.

          My guess has always been that all of the above is due to the gross overuse of no knock raids. Seems like I remember hearing that some big city depts have teams that will do several of these raids per day, 99% of which are unopposed… so when the S finally does HTF, they are completely taken by surprise.

          MVT Texas 2015-2020
          Team Coyote / Team Rekkr / Team Cowbell

        • #96176
          Max
          Keymaster

            This is interesting. I looked elsewhere and saw this raid was at 5PM, so daylight, and was onto a ‘soft walls’ structure. Given the total numbers involved it seems hard to think they managed to achieve surprise prior to the breach, but the fact that the woman was still seated on the couch next to the doors suggest that they might have. Also the male engaging with only a revolver leads us to think that he didn’t have time to get another weapon, such as a rifle, unless that was all he had in the house? Lots of assumptions here.

            I would like to see footage / information on which side of the door the stack vs. breacher were etc. If you have done CQBC, or if you have read the relevant chapter in the Tactical Manual, this will give you a little idea:

            Assuming (big assumption) the stack was to the left of the door. Surprise is achieved, and the occupants only have the time between the shotgun breach going off to react to this. If (and I know he probably wasn’t) the #1 man had been using step center, the preferred method for a dynamic breach, he would have had an opportunity to see the woman seated seated to the right of the door, close to the door it appears, and the description of him falling to the right onto the couch makes it sound like the couch was against the near wall? Whether he engaged her or not depends on a quick assessment of whether she was armed / threat? I would assume not?

            As he completed his dynamic pie / into the step center, at some point he would get attacked by the dog. This fucks his OODA loop. Theoretically, as he steps center he should see the guy at 11 with the revolver, and be able to engage as he continues to his near left corner on entry. All rounds should be fired before his muzzle breaks the plane of the door before he conducts a penetrating step as he button hooks towards the near left corner.

            An attacking dog is going to fuck with that organized step center/penetrating step. But he needs to keep going. If he started left, he should be turning left, in order to give the #2 guy the path of least resistance by just driving across the doorway. This would be driving him towards the woman on the couch.

            Now, if #1 was OODA-fucked by killing the dog, and he missed the guy at 11, he should still be going left, even if at that point he is shot by the 11 guy. #2 is driving right onto the room and provides rabbits running in opposite directions. They both have to clear the door. Even if both those guys get shot by 11 guy with the revolver, #3 should be right there and 11 guy is right in his sector and he should kill him at that point. #4 is also in and dealing with the woman on the couch, even if she is reaching for, in this example, the rifle dropped by a shot #2 guy (not #1 as per what actually happened).

            If #1 goes into the room, you have to get into the room, fast. The other option is that #1 does not enter, and tries to fight from the door, not ideal with soft walls. What appears to have happened, here was that, whatever his method of entry was (I suspect old-school dynamic given he ended up falling to the right onto the sofa, unless the stack was to the right and he button-hooked), he was interrupted in the process of going through the door by the dog. If that happens he needs to get the fuck out of the way of the door and allow the rest of the stack to get in and nail down their sectors.

          • #96177
            Anonymous
            Inactive

              Tactics aside, the whole thing sounds fishy. A no-knock raid without police identification, and all they managed to nab was some weed and some unspecified white powder. Neither suspect had any serious criminal history, and neighbors are saying they didn’t suspect them to be drug dealers either.

              https://www.officer.com/tactical/swat/news/21045015/new-details-released-in-shootout-that-left-houston-officers-wounded

              Until someone comes up with hard evidence from someone that doesn’t have a stake in the narrative (court records rather than “The police said so”) this might very well be a case of someone defending their home with a firearm against unknown assailants.

              Meanwhile the commissioner there are using this as a rallying cry for gun control and suggesting they’re ready to spy on folks who criticize the police.

            • #96178
              JohnnyMac
              Participant

                Just an excerpt from CBS:

                The first officer fired a shotgun blast, killing the dog. Suspect Dennis Tuttle, 59, initially retreated but returned with a .357 Magnum, shooting the officer in the shoulder, the chief said. The officer collapsed onto a couch in the living room.
                As the other narcotics officers charged through the door — which Acevedo described as a “fatal funnel” — the second suspect, Rhogena Nicholas, 58, tried to wrestle the shotgun away from the officer on the couch. Police quickly shot her.

                What may have happened is #1 gets shot from his sector or long, OP4 conceals himself, #1 moves away from sector into #2’s sector, then #2 only sees woman going for #1’s shotgun and gets sucked into that threat. What was #3 doing?

                ..too much unknown to actually analyze

                attacking dog

                I came across the most muscular pitbull I’ve ever seen (~120#, short) while visiting an animal shelter. I noticed he had staples all across his neck and so I asked the handler what was up. It turned out he belonged to a drug dealer. During the raid, both the male dog and his female attacked the police. Both shot, female died, he survived. It was crazy to see the dog walking around like a boss, having taken such a wound. I never saw him again, presumably because he was destroyed. Damn shame such a fine animal was in the hands of an alleged bad guy.

              • #96179
                JohnnyMac
                Participant

                  sounds fishy. A no-knock raid without police identification, and all they managed to nab was some weed and some unspecified white powder.

                  No-knock raids are a major issue…in this case, who knows what crimes he was a suspect in, maybe it wasn’t just drugs.

                • #96180
                  Anonymous
                  Inactive

                    sounds fishy. A no-knock raid without police identification, and all they managed to nab was some weed and some unspecified white powder.

                    No-knock raids are a major issue…in this case, who knows what crimes he was a suspect in, maybe it wasn’t just drugs.

                    Innocent until proven guilty much? If they suspected him in other crimes they darn well would have said so to bolster their own case.

                    When our time comes, maybe that crazy gun guy who got shot during that confiscation order had some other stuff going on too, who knows?

                  • #96181
                    JohnnyMac
                    Participant

                      nnocent until proven guilty much?

                      Like I said, no knock raids are a major issue

                    • #96182
                      wheelsee
                      Participant

                        From the OP – after CIs had made 2 black tar heroin buys at the target house………2 UC LEOs did a recce early that day to confirm target but there were no eyes on target prior to serving the warrant to give any real time intell

                        Presumably, SWAT had a good idea of the house layout and that even dog(s) were present. This info would have been part of our pre-brief.

                      • #96183
                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                        Moderator

                          An attacking dog is going to fuck with that organized step center/penetrating step.

                          I wonder what true Intel they had regarding this?

                          K9’s can truly complicate this type of entry and even a few lap dogs could be very distracting to include a trip hazard.

                          Imagine coming through the door and be greeted by half a dozen or so K9’s (my house)! ;-) Fortunately I am not the norm and not a likely target of such interest.

                          …was onto a ‘soft walls’ structure.

                          Thought this Thread Concealment does Not equal Cover, Urban Environments might be worth reviewing as a reminder. Few architecture in the US provides more than just concealment.

                        • #96184
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            Tactics aside, the whole thing sounds fishy

                            Innocent until proven guilty much?

                            Try not to get too worked up, no comments to this point; beyond yours, have made any judgements regarding the necessity of this raid.

                            It’s focus has been the mechanics of it and possible lessons learned.

                            I really look for lessons learned from both perspectives, attacked and defender. ;-)

                          • #96185
                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                            Moderator

                              Imagine being on the receiving end of this?

                              OODA what? B-)

                            • #96186
                              Mike Q
                              Participant

                                The presence of the dog would have given the homeowners notice there were people outside of the house. My dog goes absolutely ape shit when she sees or hears someone outside of the door.

                              • #96187
                                First Sergeant
                                Moderator

                                  This was a fuck up from the get go.

                                  From elsewhere it is being reported that the UC’s didn’t buy at the house but in the “vicinity” of the house.

                                  If these were such dangerous people, the only gun reportedly found was a .357 revolver. No heroin. These people had no criminal record worth talking about. No reports of lots of comings and goings at all hours.

                                  What are the odds that some of this was friendly fire?

                                  FILO
                                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                  Je ne regrette rien
                                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                • #96188
                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                  Moderator

                                    This whole thing is bullshit. If it happened as described, those officers had no business entering that house as they had no fucking clue what they were doing.

                                    As noted these so called “no knock” warrants are at the least a poor choice for all but the most extreme circumstances. In my limited knowledge they seem to be more about justifying budgets through numbers.

                                    Many times they seem to be a result of lax investigative work and should not be conducted based on just CI’s in my opinion.

                                  • #96189
                                    Max
                                    Keymaster

                                      Here’s a thought I had earlier, spurred on just now by what 1SG just said about ‘in the vicinity’ and no drugs being found. Clearly the report originally posted by Wheelsee was from a law enforcement forum. Correct? I didn’t know at the time that these guys had no drugs, but the report is very derogatory. ‘White Trash.” It does also say “serve a no knock Narcotics warrant after CIs had made 2 black tar heroin buys at the target house” – but is there conflicting evidence to this now?

                                      But the report does say that the entry team were undercover cops. Does this mean they were non-uniformed? i.e. not bursting through the door as you would expect a SWAT team to look, but simply guys in civvies with shotguns and ARs? If so, and surprise was achieved (Mike’s point about the dog giving warning is a thing to consider also) – what did the two now-deceased occupants think in that moment that the door burst open and the dog rushed it to attack the intruders? Guys bursting in with civilian clothes? He only had a revolver. She was on the couch. He was in the kitchen, or whatever. She goes to grab a shotgun off the first guy to fall and gets slotted for it. How close was she to actually having real control of the weapon, or did they go full retard once they opened the doors and dogs and bullets started flying? I bet she could have been subdued.

                                      These ‘white trash’ for all I know could be stand-up Americans who defended themselves to an armed home invasion, for all I know. the whole blue line PR bullshit line being shoved down our throats notwithstanding.

                                      The thing is, this no-knock raid stuff is bullshit. If cops want to play silly games, the numbers say that eventually they will win silly prizes. Being trained for CQB is not the same as a bunch of guys ‘all the gear, no idea.’ But of course they do not expect resistance, and thus are surprised when it happens. If they expected resistance they needed an assault pan and distraction devices, etc. An assault plan does not usually involve going in through the front door.

                                      If this warrant thing can’t be solved by mail, phone or a visit by two detectives in suit and tie, and it really is considered a dangerous situation i.e an arrest or a raid, then if real resistance is expected the best tactical plan is a ‘call-out.’ Unless you are going to send in a real tactical team with a real plan, gas, distraction devices, etc. A call out means surrounding a place and locking it down, and demanding suspects surrender, otherwise bang gas through the windows etc and ultimately assault if necessary. This no-knock stuff is crazy and it shows the bad place we are in with law enforcement methods in the country.

                                      It ultimately leads to a death sentence for those being raided, whatever the warrant is actually for. And the warrant is not a trial. It may not happen most of the time when the occupants are caught asleep and there is no resistance, but there are enough people who will either fight or between that and poorly trained SWAT, who will pull the trigger, people will be killed.

                                      Between Fox news and that stupid meme of half a marine/ half a cop talking about defending our freedoms, it chaps my balls. None of this is about our freedoms. It is mostly about raising revenue.

                                    • #96190
                                      First Sergeant
                                      Moderator

                                        I accidentally deleted my second post as I was trying to edit it.

                                        Sorry for that.

                                        FILO
                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                      • #96191
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          …but is there conflicting evidence to this now?

                                          Given the conflicting public reports I don’t want to take much as concrete.

                                          Will wait for more conclusive information.

                                          Note: The article rampantraptor linked had the following…

                                          From it all, authorities seized marijuana and a white powder — possibly cocaine or fentanyl — along with two 12-gauge shotguns, a 20-gauge shotgun, a 22-caliber rifle and a second rifle. It’s unclear whether the couple legally owned the weapons, and police didn’t specify what quantities of the suspected drugs were recovered.

                                          The “possibly” white powder and lack of amounts is troubling and the “unclear whether the couple legally owned the weapons” crap. No record means no restriction on firearms ownership. Additionally not exactly the arsenal of criminals.

                                          Also in linked article…

                                          ‘I don’t buy it’

                                          When Elizabeth Ferrari spoke to her brother last week, he seemed fine. The 59-year-old Navy veteran was happy and, it appeared, life was good. His neighbors had spotted him out and about walking the dog.

                                          But, generally, he and his wife of 21 years kept to themselves.

                                          That they were at the center of Monday’s chaos came as a surprise to those who knew them, and some were skeptical of the official account that branded them as suspected heroin dealers.

                                          “I don’t buy it at all,” Ferrari said. “Not one hot minute.”

                                          Monique Caballero, a friend who’d known the couple for about five years, was even more forceful about her doubts.

                                          “I cannot believe this; she’s not like that. “ Caballero said. “She’s not a drug addict or dealer.”

                                          Instead, she said, the officers killed “innocent people.” Other friends and relatives offered similar disbelief.

                                          So there is much to be learned before any judgements are made, but will keep an eye on it.

                                          This maybe worth a review…

                                          Passive Counter CQB: Urban

                                          …buying some time maybe appropriate in these situations.

                                        • #96192
                                          wheelsee
                                          Participant

                                            A Navy veteran who put 4 of 5 rounds on targets (based on initial reports, I have NO information re: which injured officers have what caliber injuries) but, on the surface, have to ask – what did he do in the Navy??

                                          • #96193
                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                            Moderator

                                              …what did he do in the Navy??

                                              Well regardless of whether he was innocent or a criminal, he certainly seemed proficient with his revolver. I would suspect at least a background used to higher stress.

                                              Of course this assumes he actually inflicted all of those injuries, which certainly isn’t a sure thing at this point.

                                            • #96194
                                              wheelsee
                                              Participant

                                                From some of the comments, the question of even being the right house is in my mind (again, this is early in the fact finding) as I was involved in a situation where our Intel came from the outside (federal), my TL requested time to verify the info, it was denied, so hit the location……..no one was home which was a good thing because we had hit the wrong address……never heard my Captain so verbal, and the sheriff declined the use of our team for this particular agency again.

                                                My point – was this a combined agency op?? Did they hit the wrong house?? Was the homeowner merely defending his property?? Does Houston have a problem with cartels (or others) wearing police gear hitting locations (I know AZ has had this problem, but it’s been a LONG time since I’ve been in that area), FYI US Hwy 59 runs from South Texas through Houston up into the Midwest and has always been a drug conduit.

                                                Many questions, few answers for now……..time will tell.

                                                Above are only questions and speculation……..

                                              • #96195
                                                Mike Q
                                                Participant

                                                  I don’t want to jump to conclusions but this whole thing feels like watching a movie made in 1989 starring Tom Selleck, “An Innocent Man”. I’m not saying the police planted anything but the basic premise is the same.

                                                • #96196
                                                  Max
                                                  Keymaster

                                                    No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

                                                  • #96197
                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                    Moderator

                                                      I’m not saying the police planted anything but the basic premise is the same.

                                                      I thought this too, but will wait to see.

                                                      No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

                                                      Always a screwed up deal, with copycat home invasions even some semblance of uniform is hardly enough.

                                                    • #96198
                                                      JohnnyMac
                                                      Participant

                                                        No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

                                                        I was actually thinking about this last night. How the fuck anyone is supposed to know that it’s NOT a home invasion is beyond me.

                                                        There is case law of home defenders (who survive) that are NOT indicted on charges…and those ARE indicted. Circumstances do not really provide any conclusions, it’s a straight up crapshoot, that IF you survive, you might be going to jail anyway….politics.

                                                      • #96199
                                                        JohnnyMac
                                                        Participant

                                                          copycat home invasions

                                                          An armed robbery at my alma mater a few years ago started with a knock on the door and “Campus Police”.

                                                        • #96200
                                                          Brushpopper
                                                          Participant

                                                            No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

                                                            I’ve wondered about this before, how is one to know who is breaking in your door and swarming in? Someone kicks in my door, no knock, no uniform, with my family present I’m going to assume the worst and things are going to get a little waspy!

                                                          • #96201
                                                            Roadkill
                                                            Participant

                                                              In my home town years ago we had park police which were apart from our regular street cops. One of these guys was a badass martial artist who with his merry band of martial artists would rob drug houses. Dynamic entries just like this. They would dress in paramilitary kit, make the raid, then instead of arresting anyone they would steal there shit and leave. The drug dealers going to call the police? Not so much. Eventually through the grapevine word got out and these guys got caught. So, you never know who is coming through your door. I have a 700 foot driveway, I’ve taken those garage door safety lights and wired them across it to a doorbell in my house. At least I have a little warning. Kind of a cheap intrusion alarm. Hard wired, not radio.
                                                              No knock warrants are the difference between a law enforcement officer and a peace officer. I don’t even think they call them peace officers any more.

                                                            • #96202
                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                              Moderator

                                                                How the fuck anyone is supposed to know that it’s NOT a home invasion is beyond me.

                                                                There have been many cases where citizens have killed LEO’s and its been ruled justified, all of these involved arrest and significant legal expense to get to that result.

                                                                I’ve wondered about this before, how is one to know who is breaking in your door and swarming in? Someone kicks in my door, no knock, no uniform…

                                                                Even in uniform it may not go well!

                                                                In my case potential problems include…

                                                                Door crashes, dogs barking and attacking, I run to the sound with weapon in hand…

                                                                It doesn’t end well!

                                                                Then we throw in other factors like limited lighting, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, ect…

                                                                It isn’t as clear cut as many would portray it!

                                                                Note: Despite my comment about there being instances where LEO’s have been shot legally based on their poor judgement on those specific instances. This Forum is not anti LEO and never has been, we are very supportive of Law Enforcement. However we also have never been adverse to calling out poor judgement and/or unlawful activities by anyone regardless of their position!

                                                                “Cop bashing” for the sake of it has never been tolerated.

                                                              • #96203
                                                                Lloyd
                                                                Participant

                                                                  …They would dress in paramilitary kit, make the raid, then instead of arresting anyone they would steal there shit and leave. The drug dealers going to call the police? Not so much…

                                                                  A few years ago there was a “gang” of cops in South Texas running a similar racket where they’d pocket cash, weapons and drugs would be resold. If I remember the story right, the leader was a city cop whose father was the County Sheriff.

                                                                  MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                  Team Coyote / Team Rekkr / Team Cowbell

                                                                • #96204
                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                  Moderator

                                                                    …They would dress in paramilitary kit, make the raid, then instead of arresting anyone they would steal there shit and leave. The drug dealers going to call the police? Not so much…

                                                                    A few years ago there was a “gang” of cops in South Texas running a similar racket where they’d pocket cash, weapons and drugs would be resold. If I remember the story right, the leader was a city cop whose father was the County Sheriff.

                                                                    This criminal behavior has been committed by those just playing dress up as well! Which of course muddies up the water for us as well.

                                                                    These and many other reasons make “no knock” warrants bad for most.

                                                                  • #96205
                                                                    First Sergeant
                                                                    Moderator

                                                                      I have done some more digging. The more I read about this, the more fucked up it becomes.

                                                                      To correct one thing that I had seen reported before, the cops did not buy drugs in the vicinity of the house. They sent a CI to buy the drugs.

                                                                      Watch these videos and read these articles.

                                                                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9sGLHOOqm0

                                                                      The warrant is in this article:

                                                                      https://www.click2houston.com/news/heroin-sold-weapons-seen-at-house-where-police-shootout-occurred-warrant-claims?__vfz=rtw_top_pages=2219100005648

                                                                      https://www.click2houston.com/news/who-were-the-suspects-in-shootout-that-injured-5-houston-officers?__vfz=rtw_top_pages=2219100005648

                                                                      https://www.click2houston.com/news/-they-re-far-from-drug-dealers-neighbors-upset-after-deadly-hpd-shootout?__vfz=rtw_top_pages=2219100005648

                                                                      FILO
                                                                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                      Je ne regrette rien
                                                                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                    • #96206
                                                                      First Sergeant
                                                                      Moderator

                                                                        I think the reason why the huge push as this being a big time time drug house is the cops know they screwed up and are trying to cover it up.

                                                                        They are shaping the narrative that this is the couples fault.

                                                                        I think they hit the wrong house.

                                                                        Starting at the .40 second mark in this video you can see where rounds came from inside of the house. Those are exit holes. Going by what has been reported, the dead guy fired 5 or 6 rounds from his revolver. There are more exit holes than that. That tells me the cops were shooting a lot, and not towards the inside of the house.

                                                                        Only 4 cops were shot. The 5th one injured his knee.

                                                                        FILO
                                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                      • #96207
                                                                        First Sergeant
                                                                        Moderator

                                                                          No matter how well armed you are all it takes is one guy with the will to fight back and he will ruin your day. Outnumbered and with only a revolver.

                                                                          FILO
                                                                          Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                          Je ne regrette rien
                                                                          In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                        • #96208
                                                                          joe m
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            Never discount the man who “only” carries one gun. Some years ago in Albuquerque, NM a guy who knew he was nuts started killing early in the morning. First victim Highway Department guy. Vctim’s 2 and 3 guys in motorcycle shop. Victims 3 and 4 two Albuquerque PD serving committal order on him ambushed by him outside suspect’s residence. Super gun the nut used? Old British Webley revolver.

                                                                          • #96209
                                                                            First Sergeant
                                                                            Moderator

                                                                              https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/HPD-officer-connected-to-deadly-raid-shootout-13598143.php

                                                                              Curiouser and curiouser.

                                                                              FILO
                                                                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                              Je ne regrette rien
                                                                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                            • #96210
                                                                              First Sergeant
                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                I hope some of you are still reading this.

                                                                                You need to read both articles and understand the implications.

                                                                                https://www.click2houston.com/news/investigates/channel-2-investigates-major-questions-raised-about-raid-turned-shootout-after-warrant-reviewed

                                                                                https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Houston-police-officer-in-drug-raid-had-previous-13621276.php

                                                                                FILO
                                                                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                              • #96211
                                                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                  Keep us updated.

                                                                                  They really need the Texas Rangers to take over this investigation.

                                                                                • #96212
                                                                                  wheelsee
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    From Houston local news…..

                                                                                    https://abc13.com/warrant-informant-didnt-buy-drugs-from-couple-killed-in-raid/5140341/

                                                                                    On our local news last night, police Chief Art Acevedo is changing his tune. There was also mention of the Harris county Sheriff’s Dept doing an investigation.

                                                                                    While many around here want to support the police, actions like this only destroy those “wants”…..even die-hard police supporters are questioning. From day 1, sentiments have ranged to a hesitant support of police at one end all the way to officers need to go to jail (prison), and even someone needs a needle (death penalty). It will be interesting to see how it plays out…….

                                                                                    And yes, Texas Rangers need to be involved (though there is a question of how fairly they would be after the shooting in Dallas by DPD Amber Guyger and the recommendations by the Texas Rangers)…….

                                                                                  • #96213
                                                                                    wheelsee
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      I would suggest also reading the comments on the above links…..

                                                                                    • #96214
                                                                                      wheelsee
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        First Sergeant’s Houston Chronicle link, if true, lays out a pattern of Goines as well as a pattern for HPD administration.

                                                                                        It appears to also lay out issues with the state (TX), though I can’t carry it as far as a pattern.

                                                                                      • #96215
                                                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                        Moderator

                                                                                          If the information to justify a no knock warrant was fabricated, it doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to charge Officer Gerald Goines with murder and attempted murder.

                                                                                          Just like the recently discussed NYPD fiasco. Even though robber was armed with a airsoft gun, the death was a result of his illegal actions.

                                                                                        • #96216
                                                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                            I hope they can discover why Goines targeted Rhogena Nicholas and Dennis Tuttle in the first place.

                                                                                            I would also be interested in the autopsy results of Rhogena Nicholas and Dennis Tuttle. Was there even evidence of any drug use by them?

                                                                                            Given the new information, were the limited drugs found even theirs?

                                                                                            While many around here want to support the police, actions like this only destroy those “wants”…..even die-hard police supporters are questioning.

                                                                                            Agreed.

                                                                                            I’ve never been part of the LEO world. Known many LEO’s over the years and my observations are anecdotal, but many shouldn’t be LEO’s and even good ones can be negatively affected over time.

                                                                                            Those involved in narcotics work seem to be the most negatively impacted in my limited experience.

                                                                                            Given the information I’ve seen this Officer Gerald Goines seems to be the stereotypical “roid-rage bully.”

                                                                                          • #96217
                                                                                            wheelsee
                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                              If the information to justify a no knock warrant was fabricated, it doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to charge Officer Gerald Goines with murder and attempted murder.

                                                                                              This is going to get sticky…. in the state of Texas, even if an accomplice (i.e. the getaway driver who isn’t even in the building at the time of the murder) to murder in the commission of a felony, ALL can be charged with murder and can be executed for same. See here https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2018/12/06/texas-seven-slaying-officer-aubrey-hawkins-still-painful-irving-police-department

                                                                                              So IF the initial officer is charged with murder (which on the surface appears possible – I am NOT a lawyer), it would not be a far stretch to charge all involved as accomplices. And then what of the one who killed the female??

                                                                                              Like I said, this is going to get sticky……

                                                                                            • #96218
                                                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                                So IF the initial officer is charged with murder (which on the surface appears possible – I am NOT a lawyer), it would not be a far stretch to charge all involved as accomplices.

                                                                                                I guess it would depend on whether they knew justification of warrant was fabricated.

                                                                                              • #96219
                                                                                                First Sergeant
                                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                                  One of the articles that I read yesterday stated that Goines car was searched at the scene after everything was over. It stated that undocumented bags of heroin and firearms were found in his vehicle.

                                                                                                  Were those going to be planted at the scene after the raid? At this point anything is possible.

                                                                                                  As @wheelsee said, this is going to get very complicated very fast.

                                                                                                  FILO
                                                                                                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                  Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                                • #96220
                                                                                                  Lloyd
                                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                                    Forensics Investigation Finds Cops Shot Each Other, Then Murdered Houston Couple

                                                                                                    MVT Texas 2015-2020
                                                                                                    Team Coyote / Team Rekkr / Team Cowbell

                                                                                                  • #96221
                                                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                    Moderator

                                                                                                      Very interesting.

                                                                                                      Will be looking forward hearing more details.

                                                                                                    • #96222
                                                                                                      wheelsee
                                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                                        Dang!!! If true, murder charges are warranted (no pun intended) and the chief should be fired (leadership, or the lack thereof) for malfeasance in office……jus saying

                                                                                                      • #96223
                                                                                                        LittleBigBill
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          Art Acevedo was Austin’s Police Chief and though generally liked by the community, he is considered (at least by me and acquaintances) as a Progressive political civil servant (who carries a gun).

                                                                                                          I’m glad he’s out of Austin, but feel for Houston’s liberty. Of course Houston has had a whole lot of Progressive problems for decades, just like most large population centers around the nation.

                                                                                                          Being a native Texas I have an oversize amount of pride for the Lone Star state, but I am truly disappointed in the way Houston (among other cities here) are so blue.

                                                                                                          The whole issue of No Knock raids needs to be addressed at the judicial level, but that won’t happen until the Legislature changes the rules to which police departments and their individuals can be help liable for “accidents”. Also, accountability for the No Knock raids needs to happen all the way from the investigators to the judges.

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