CQB Posting update

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  • This topic has 27 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 5 years ago by trailman. This post has been viewed 39 times
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    • #95924
      Max
      Keymaster

        As I write this on Christmas afternoon, a little worse for wear, I have some results coming in from my CQB post. I conducted a little guerrilla marketing campaign on FaceBook and posted it on a few peoples timeliness, and it has drawn out the usual assholes:

        1) The smug opinionated LEO/tactical fan boy types who either dismiss anything they have never heard of before, or claim they knew it all anyway.

        2) Those who think I am compromising matters of national security to sell training.

        3) Those who think ‘civilians’ will never need knowledge such tactics. The most you may ever do is clear a room with your wife.

        I called one a cunt just now. It felt right. Oops. It’s a Brit thing.

        It’s amazing the level of retarded out there when it comes to posting good solid tactics. I have to remind myself that “you can’t fix stupid.” My problem is that I am always trying.

        Don’t get me wrong, there has been overwhelming positive reaction. I just get stuck on the retards. Here is a roundup of the negative stuff that I know about so far:

        Here is the result of Ash Hess sharing the FB post. CHris Clifton is, it would seem, some kind of Cop, maybe a SWAT guy, not sure really:

        Chris Clifton: How does that play out in structures where walls can be shot through?
        23 hrs · Like · 1

        Max Velocity: I answered that to a question in the original post, in comments. Most walls can be shot through and are only concealment: remember this is fast stuff with as much tactical surprise as possible. I’d rather have the enemy guessing where I am rather than having a duck shoot as we flood the room, from behind his barricade or in his corner.
        23 hrs · Edited · Like · 1

        Ash Hess: We apply same sort of logic to stairwells as well. And the way we are running the gun. Guys are using high ready, low ready, switching shoulders all based on situation, not on what is most common. And yes, the whole place is considered concealment rather than cover.
        23 hrs · Like

        Max Velocity: Yes and to add: use of high/low positions etc . Kneeling during CQB!
        23 hrs · Like

        Chris Clifton: Meh; I can see it being useful at times, but nothing ground breaking
        23 hrs · Like

        Chris Clifton: Also; I would caution citing FoF results for casualties and mission completion rates
        23 hrs · Like · 1

        Max Velocity: ? Keep drinking the tacticoolaid. Merry Christmas. Max out.
        23 hrs · Like

        Ash Hess: Well, when the old styles resulted in 120% “kill” rates for the same missions its useful
        23 hrs · Like

        Ash Hess: FoF of course.
        23 hrs · Like

        Chris Clifton: Tacticoolaid? Whatever dude. I’ve been doing your “new” technique for the past 13 years at work. We simply call it visually clearing a room prior to entry, but that probably doesn’t sell as well to the militia crowd
        23 hrs · Edited · Like · 2

        Ash Hess: We were calling it “pre-clearance” but in Army work the problem was over commiting, Dudes would just go, hammer into the room and hope for the best. BG figured this out started barricading and setting in IEDS
        23 hrs · Like

        Chris Clifton: Visually clearing is basic level LE clearing and is our most common method of searching a structure.

        In the end it’s about having a toolbox, knowing which tool to use at a given time, and recognizing the fact that you probably aren’t creating anything new in the process
        21 hrs · Like · 2

        Ash Hess: Agreed. That’s where I stole some of my stuff from. But it’s revolutionary in most Army circles. These are also the same people who spend hours on 180 turns but don’t even know how to move laterally. Creating thinkers is significantly harder than robots. So adding TTP’ s is a long slow process
        21 hrs · Like · 3

        Dan Wilcox: I heard once there was an Army that did not have a word for “doctrine” because they knew it would become dogma.
        21 hrs · Like · 1

        Ash Hess: We have 13 words and phrases for it.
        21 hrs · Like · 1

        Dan Wilcox: 13?
        21 hrs · Edited · Like · 1

        William Larson: So does this mean the old method of chucking M67’s into rooms and spraying high and low is out?
        17 hrs · Like

        Max Velocity: LOL. Just checking back in: Chris Clifton you need to read and digest the article instead of coming at it with preconceived notions. This is not visually clearing, although that will form part of it. This is an alternative to dynamic entry. And yes, I explain in the article that I am not inventing this, simply explaining and giving it a form of SOP. I’m a professional soldier, and not in a militia, other than the unorganized one that we are all in. I chuckle at your argument from a position of expertise having “done this at ‘work’ for the last 13 years. What have the rest of us been doing? Hmmmm.
        17 hrs · Like

        Chris Clifton: Sorry that I don’t find your article to be some kind of ground breaking re-examination of how CQB should be conducted.

        As I’ve said, I’ve been doing it for 13 years at work and the concept has been around a lot longer than that. We call it visually clearing the room, because that’s what we primarily do. Obviously any threats that are encountered during the clearing processes are addressed appropriately as needed.

        Kinda quick to distance yourself from the militia thing even though that’s one of your primary target audiences. Hmmmmm
        10 hrs · Like

        Max Velocity: Ok, sadly this needs addressing. One of the main problems I find with training is ego getting in the way. The ‘know it all’ approach. Anyone reading the article with an open understanding knows what I am saying. My audience is wide, with military and law enforcement included. However, my main target audience is the armed civilian, with the mission of keeping them alive once the SHTF. That is my mission, if you like. No, I am not a member of a militia and i have written extensively about the Militia. Militias form a sub set of my audience.
        9 hrs · Like

        Max Velocity: Rather than distancing myself from the concept of militia, I distance myself from the bad militias, the fat unfit untrained ones. Making them better is part of my training mission. As a proud American I support the Constitutional concept of the unorganized Militia, and as I mentioned we are all part of it, like it or not.
        9 hrs · Edited · Like

        Max Velocity: I dislike ego and arrogance. I find most LEOs, particularly those that come to train with me, to be excellent people. However, there is an egotistical element that looks down on the armed civilian, perhaps because they are ‘better’ and civilians are mere ‘mundanes?’ That is what is happening here with Clifton’s comments. It was pretty quick to get personal in comments from Clifton, and the trite attacks on “militia’ are sad to see from an LEO. The Militia is part of this country, but it has become victim of a radical left propaganda campaign – sadly some of it justified due to an elements of fat idiots out there..
        9 hrs · Like · 1

        Max Velocity: And none of this article was ever about ‘the militia’ The article is specifically written for the armed civilian, and it states that they may not have some of the toys that military/LEO will have. The article and TTP’s that are portrayed have extreme value and do not deserve to be denigrated just because Clifton may have worked perhaps in SWAT for a few years. Really? In fact, I have often criticized SWAT tactics and they are criticized in the article – but you need an open mind to see that. Doing low risk clearance on ‘suspects’ in houses, or serving warrants, does not qualify as high threat CQB. That is why input from some who ‘do it at work; is sometimes not as valuable as they would like it to be. Sometimes it is known as survivor bias. I have been doing this a long time. I have seen this type of response countless times, and unfortunately it is often from the egotistical LEO types. I mean, why do civvies even need firearms, right?
        8 hrs · Edited · Like

        Max Velocity: Have a Merry Christmas!
        9 hrs · Like

        Chris Clifton Waxing poetic about arrogance and ego yet the first to throw an insult. Typical.

        And I’m the most closed minded person on the planet. Bwhahaha
        8 hrs · Like

        Max Velocity: I’m having Christmas with the kids. Arguing on the Internet is pointless, however your points needed addressing and could not be left unchallenged. I don’t see myself throwing insults. This is tedious. A re read obviously shows you making it personal and attacking me over the militia aspect. My comments about ego are simple observations from experience. But all I see are child like responses – do you have anything constructive to say? That’s a serious question? Other than appearing to know it all and denigrating the tactics in my article, what is your point? Or are you just trolling for a response and trying to derail a conversation on serious tactics?
        8 hrs · Edited · Like

        Max Velocity: Unassailable ego is a term I have often used in the past.
        8 hrs · Like

        Max Velocity: It’s exactly this type of reaction, dismissive ad superior, that has prevented a move away from the old dynamic entry style TTPs. I don’t claim to have invented this whole thing, never did, but I am writing TTPs and putting it out there to save lives. …See More
        8 hrs · Like

        Kelly Hohnholz: “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities. In the expert’s mind there are few.” – Shunryu Suzuki
        7 hrs · Like

        Ash Hess: Why are we doing this? Is it because it works or because we have always do it that way.— Gunner Wade, USMC
        7 hrs · Unlike · 1

        Chris Clifton: I stated from the start that it’s been in use for well over a decade here and that I even make use of it. So, who is dismissing anything?
        7 hrs · Like

        Here on MD Shooters Forum: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=3574566&posted=1#post3574566

        This guy Thomson Frank on the post over on Marcus Goldhawke’s page:

        Marcus Goldhawke: A far cry from FIBUA I learned back in the late 80s
        Yesterday at 9:13am · Like

        Max Velocity: FISH
        Yesterday at 9:16am · Like

        Max Velocity: FISCH
        Yesterday at 9:16am · Like

        Thomson Frank: Is this supposed to be new info or something? Lol. Been around a long time
        Yesterday at 10:16am · Like

        Max Velocity: Really? Because this kind of info is out there to the extent that people are no longer training dynamic entry? Didn’t think so. Keep your superior smugness to yourself – others want to learn and improve.
        Yesterday at 10:52am · Like · 1

        Thomson Frank: No you’re just compromising more modern TTPs in order to sell training and advertising space. Anyone who does this for a living understands the merits/drawbacks to multiple entry techniques, so you’re just trying to impress the weekend warrior crowd.
        45 mins · Like

        Max Velocity: That’s a fairly damning statement there, for someone who knows little of what I do. I don’t actually offer CQB training. As for the ‘weekend warrior’ crowd you are insulting a lot of armed civilians/veterans who take knowing this stuff seriously. They are the responsible unorganized militia. That’s pretty fucking wow in my book. So fuck you.
        35 mins · Like

        Max Velocity: Who are you anyway , Thomson Frank, you cocky little cunt?
        34 mins · Like

        Thomson Frank: Someone who understands the difference between teaching a subject matter in a training class vice putting TTPs that are still used by some on an open website with diagrams and video no less.
        32 mins · Like

        Max Velocity: They are my TTPs that I wrote. Have you any idea what is on open source The fucking Rangr handbook and all the Army FM’s.
        Just now · Like

        (Nothing like Christmas day fist fight, if I could pull it off…..)

        I’ve got to stop trying to fix stupid.

        Max

      • #95925
        Skittles
        Participant

          Ive had just enough to drink to join in on any local fist fights

        • #95926
          Skittles
          Participant

            Anyone in Nova up for a Christmas day beer/shenanigans?

          • #95927
            JeffSags
            Participant

              Ive had just enough to drink to join in on any local fist fights

              What Skittles said.

              Seriously though. Us “armed civilians” greatly appreciate the work you do.

              You can’t fix stoopid, but maybe you can open enough eyes to counter it.

              :good:

            • #95928
              JeffSags
              Participant

                I’ve grown so tired of our “American caste system.” You served, but you’re not better than I am. I went to college, but I am not better than you. On it goes… I wish we could all meet on a “level playing field,” have a beer, shake hands and realize how similar we all are. Facebook sucks, but I guess it is a necessary evil…

                Team Freefor needs to put the ego aside and reach for that goal of Rightful Liberty. Everyone may have something to bring to the table. Just don’t be a douche about it. It’s that ego free thing.

                Reading these smug, dismissive one liners get me so frustrated.

              • #95929
                Palmetto
                Participant

                  Merry Christmas Max. Just keep on keeping on bro. There are a whole pile of us out here who “get” what you’re doing and are thankful for the relative handful of people like you who have stepped up to the plate to do what you’re doing. God bless!

                • #95930
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    I always get a kick out of the open source argument, like this is some secret mystical information. :wacko:

                    Unfortunately reality only appeals to a small portion of people. I think the entertainment thing factors into some peoples way of legitimizing either their participation in training or lack there of. It is easier to tell their misguided friends and family it’s just roleplaying then it is to admit their concern of the future.

                    I see this in some of the pushback against realistic PT. “Why do I need to be in such good shape?” or “I never was good at running, why start now?” “I am too old!” Excuse after excuse, but with dreams of rising to the occasion if the SHTF, then they will become “Rambo”.

                    As far as the LEO types, the good ones support us and the insecure ones fear us so they talk garbage. A Bully with a Badge is still just a Bully like in our childhood. The more they posture the more they show their true selves, particularly to their colleagues.

                    Fortunately there are plenty of people waking up from many different backgrounds.

                    It’s just another day in paradise! :yes:

                  • #95931
                    Corvette
                    Participant

                      No such thing as bad publicity. Let them come.

                    • #95932
                      Corvette
                      Participant

                        Max: Keep fighting the good fight.

                        Too many guys out there are “too cool for school” and dont even like seeing others develop expertise.

                      • #95933
                        trailman
                        Participant

                          I’m feeling responsible now for Max’s angst on MDshooters. FWIW thats some typical shit over there. There is a lot of LEO ego over there. Right down to threats. And, the user name Blaster trolls for me all the time others too, looking to set people off. The state 2A forum has folded the same way too. So have a rum on me tonight.

                          Max its people like that that drive people like us here. They made my choice for me when looking for a place to train. We just all need to keep up the skeer. Glad you are out there.

                        • #95934
                          Palmetto
                          Participant

                            Merry Christmas Aaron and Fred and all other MVT cadre, alum and Patriots! :good:

                          • #95935
                            Corvette
                            Participant

                              Thank you Palmetto! :) :yes:

                            • #95936
                              Palmetto
                              Participant

                                BTW, I’ll be seeing you guys in April for CTT and bringing at least one buddy. Look for our class down payment. My buddy got his from his wife as a Christmas present! :good:

                              • #95937
                                trailman
                                Participant

                                  Merry Christmas Aaron and Fred and all other MVT cadre, alum and Patriots! :good:

                                  Back at ya.

                                • #95938
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster

                                    Everyone here is contributing for a cause greater than themselves in their own way. Max, people come here with a teachable attitude because of what you have done. It started with a book, and look how it grows. People are picking themselves up, dusting themselves off and learning. We dont need, nor will we ask anyone’s damn permission to do it either.

                                  • #95939
                                    Leatherneck556
                                    Participant

                                      The problem is that just like with counterinsurgency, it is a fact of life that you have some people who don’t need convincing, a majority of people that do need convincing, and some more people who can’t be convinced.

                                      We all as humans tend to fret over things we can’t control, which is the single biggest way we waste time and effort. We tend to get fixated and spend far more of our time arguing with the third group (people who will never be convinced) than we do actually working on things we can control such as working on ourselves.

                                      I am not saying this is what you’re doing, Max; you have built a small empire and it continues to grow, so obviously you have put a lot of effort into the right sorts of things. But like you said yourself, you just can’t resist sometimes. It does hit all of us, but just always remember a few things:
                                      -If you took all the time you spent actually working and building your business and instead wasted that effort by arguing with people who will never be convinced, then you wouldn’t have the business and following you now have.
                                      -The more you work on your own projects, the more powerful they become. The more powerful they become, the more people will buy into them.
                                      -You will never convince everybody. To try and do so is just an exercise in frustration and wasted time. Leave them be. No reason to ruin Christmas by arguing with idiots. Your wife and kids want your thoughts with them, not some asshole on the internet. Remember the 9 words that will set you free: You’re an idiot, and I’m done talking to you.

                                      As a side note: arrogance and close-mindedness are pet peeves of mine, and I might start a thread on this forum that has something to do with it. But I want to point out that the reason I pretty much only post on this forum these days is that it actually has a “we are all on the same side” vibe that heads off the sort of petty arguments that occur on other forums. Keep up the great work, Max!

                                    • #95940
                                      Corvette
                                      Participant

                                        Max, thank you for what you’re doing. ( I am killing 20 minutes before meeting a partner for a mini TAB. – which is your fault.)

                                        Even if the arrogant …people … you were conversing with yesterday actually do have their shit together they appear to scorn the idea of “Normals ” being given the opportunity to learn. Well fuck them then. It’s the same mindset as the gun control crowd – let the government protect you , provided they show up, provided you’re not on the wrong end of political correctness , provided you do what your told and roll over.

                                        You seem to be threatening their self esteem and ego. Maybe they need to get out a bit more instead of telling respected trainers how to do their jobs.

                                      • #95941
                                        Corvette
                                        Participant

                                          BTW, I’ll be seeing you guys in April for CTT and bringing at least one buddy. Look for our class down payment. My buddy got his from his wife as a Christmas present! :good:

                                          Awesome can’t wait to try with you again!!
                                          I am going up as student w/ a buddy for the January Class.
                                          (never too cool for school)

                                        • #95942
                                          Max
                                          Keymaster

                                            I just got this one on thee Max Velocity Tactical Page version of the post:

                                            Paul Taylor: Max, the techniques you are referencing are based loosely on the dynamic move and engaging before the threshold. But break many of the rules of CQB, even for advanced Gunfighting. These videos and blog need to be taken down before civilians try this and hurt themselves. And Andrew Woods…. You’re full of shit.
                                            Like · Reply · 7 mins

                                            To which I responded:

                                            Max Velocity Tactical: Really? *face palm* – didn’t you read the article? The whole point is that what you reference as the ‘rules of CQB’ are not the right rules and don’t work for high risk clearance. You have to get out of the box before you can understand that. Your rules are also sometimes known as ‘The American Method’ I’m sorry to say, and are not widely appreciated in other circles.

                                            It’s amazing how some people cannot see past what they think they know.

                                          • #95943
                                            Max
                                            Keymaster

                                              WOW: MD Shooters is cooking off with crazy:

                                              http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=166845&page=2

                                              Here my latest response. Heh:

                                              @ Hogarth:

                                              Each to his own – why so interested in what name I choose to work under?

                                              You have a lot of assumptions about my classes when you know little about them (clearly apparent in your comments). If you don’t want to train, fine, do what you want. Why criticize what you don’t know anything about?

                                              And while you are at it, you should probably take down the SAS Cap Badge avatar…you think?

                                              Reading the comments here, there are a lot of weird ones – what the funk is all that gibberish about select fire? Seems like crazy talk to me. In response I’m actually pretty suspicious about the qualification of most of the guys in this thread to comment at all on anything tactical. Why mouth off on a forum when you DKWYDK and you should be getting training, not talking crap from the porch?

                                              Is this comment going to win friends and influence people? Not so much, but from reading down the comments, I’m not so worried that any here are future students! We have a rule at MVT – leave your ego at the door, and come to learn. Acknowledge that you may not know as much as you think you do, and come for training and knowledge transfer. You either want to get tactically trained, or you don’t and are just talking crap from the porch, and making excuses about my training site having trees. WTF?

                                              It’s been fun. I don’t think I’ll be hanging around here long. Anyway, Maryland? That’s about as commie as it gets – are you even allowed to have weapons there? Think about moving to Virginia, or Kentucky or something….you know, somewhere in the real America where we have gun rights.

                                            • #95944
                                              Corvette
                                              Participant

                                                There’s less and less trees every class. The students keep shooting them down. I think most of the MD shooters prefer a waxed floor and some RSOs telling them one shot every 2 seconds, no drawing from the holster, one person on the line at a time.

                                              • #95945
                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                Moderator

                                                  This is why few Forums have been worth my time. Far too much ego and reactionary pushback to anything that disrupts the home turf of said Forum.

                                                  Not to mention the “I have a gazillion posts as indicator of experience and knowledge mentality?” give me a break.

                                                  And while you are at it, you should probably take down the SAS Cap Badge avatar…you think?

                                                  So what are the odds of any SAS ties other than the movies? :wacko:

                                                  No such thing as bad publicity.

                                                  At least there is truth to this.

                                                  Added:
                                                  Max you have really stirred them up and despite some of their efforts, they are just showing themselves for what they are. Some will see through that.

                                                  Page 3 link:
                                                  http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=166845&page=3

                                                • #95946
                                                  Thomas
                                                  Participant

                                                    I read the MDShooters thread and am thoroughly confused! They troll each other and make some really inflammatory and wrong comments. Had I not started here in this thread, I would have been lost. Some really calcified thinking going on there.

                                                  • #95947
                                                    JustARandomGuy
                                                    Participant

                                                      Well… that went south fast… :wacko:

                                                      I think a lot of folks need to just chill and realize, whatever your opinion, it’s still another tool in the box. Either you’ll learn a new or different way of doing something, or you’ll learn how not to do something. Either way, you learn…something…

                                                      On top of that, sometimes you just got to walk away without being sucked into playing into the namecalling and other general pettiness. Just smile and wave boys…. smile and wave. :bye:

                                                    • #95948
                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                      Moderator

                                                        Well the Thread is either deleted or blocked to non-members.

                                                        The last thing I had seen was a post by “Hogarth” saying we had purposely incited things for our entertainment! :wacko:

                                                        Also Hogarth compared Max to some other Instructor he had attended and the rest of us as blind followers of Max? :-)

                                                        Pretty funny.

                                                        There were some reasonable voices and over 1300 views, so many will have chance to make up their own minds.

                                                        Since “Hogarth” linked this thread, Hogarth you really should remove SAS avatar, regardless of whether one makes claims or not; in this case SAS, posting military avatars without a true connection is in poor taste. :negative:

                                                      • #95949
                                                        Max
                                                        Keymaster

                                                          Well, I think that this is actually a great opportunity to spread the word. I think that those who are already on the MD Shooters forum should continue to post there. There are a lot of reasonable voices, but there are some deliberate trolls.

                                                          Oddly, none of this was about the content of the original linked post on CQB!

                                                          I don’t play well on forums, I just can’t tolerate fools, so I end up calling them out and getting banned.

                                                          B-)

                                                        • #95950
                                                          Corvette
                                                          Participant

                                                            It’s definitely locked up. The use of avatars and names not connected to the individual has always been difficult for me to understand. Like having a tattoo from McDonalds. My avatar is me working an 81mm mortar at some bad guys my first tour. SAS yeah……no.

                                                          • #95951
                                                            trailman
                                                            Participant

                                                              FWIW it made an impact as there were alot of views on it and I got PMs from people about the thread. A few of those guys were some known trolls on the board ayways. Funny thing is that actually several of the board IPs offer CQB courses to civilians. Whatever.

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