CP Training Prep

View Latest Activity

Viewing 42 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #91968
      DiznNC
      Participant

        Someone was asking about this stuff in another thread so I will go into it here.

        Basically you are going to take what you learned in CTT, as far as weapons manip, fire and maneuver, and SUT, and learn how to apply that to an actual patrol. Here are some things that will help you get ready, and maximize your training experience.

        Review and practice what you learned at CTT. Get your weapons and gear re-configured as necessary and take it to the range to re-confirm zero and practice weapons manip. Don’t fumble stuff you should have locked down from CTT. Be ready to learn new stuff.

        The key difference is now you are adding a patrol ruck. You won’t carry/use it the whole time, but for the 24-hr FTX, it’s important to have this piece sorted out. I recommend a good 45 liter ruck, such as the Karrimor or equivalent. This size is just about right for our purposes, both in training, and for real. Any smaller will not fit the average sleep system well; any larger and you will be tempted to carry much more crap than you really need.

        First the 3L water bladder goes in the back pocket, with the drinking hose rigged along the non-firing shoulder and secured with elastic, cord, etc. Next, I use the GI “Willy Peter” (water-proof) bag, which lines the entire bag. I know civilians like the individual stuff sacks for everything, and they do work great for regular hiking when nobody is trying to kill you. But for tactical work, the great big bloody bag approach works best. Because you will be stuffing things in and out of there, in the middle of the night, when it’s pitch black. So to reduce the fiddle factor, having one big bag is the bomb. Now, take your sleep system, which should consist of a some kind of bivy sack, or poncho, and a light bag, or poncho liner, and a self-inflating mat, if required. This should already be assembled, with the mat inside the bivy or poncho. Roll it all up together, ready for instant deployment. Stuff it in the bottom. Don’t be too picky about it; just stuff it in there and fill all the nooks and crannies of the bag bottom. Next comes your shelter. You need a MVT shield or Brit basha, or equivalent. The 80″ x 90″ size is important because you will be hooching up as buddy teams. The GI Poncho isn’t big enough for this purpose. Pre-attach bungees at each corner. Use 5-6 foot bungees with metal hooks on the end. Squeeze these together on the grommet or strap so the bungees will stay attached. A spare bungee to hold up the top is nice to have. Roll this up and stuff it on top of your sleep system. Now take your food bag, cook stove, cup and spork, in stuff sacks and place them on top of the basha. Next comes any spare clothing, which is seasonal and mission-dependent. Lets say you have some spare socks, a spare shirt, and some kind of windproof smock. Along with maybe a watch cap and some gloves for sentry duty. Close up the WP bag, and close up the ruck. Hopefully you have some kind of pouch on your top lid. Here you want a zip lock bag with baby wipes, foot powder, washcloth, toothbrush and paste, TP, etc. Doesn’t hurt to have a red lens headlamp either. This is all you really need for the FTX. For an actual mission, you would add 4-6 mags, in pouches on the sides, along with an e-tool, either pouched up around back, or carried internally. Along with any mission-essential items required.

        Now when you set up camp, open up the ruck, dump out the clothing and cook set. Grab the sleep system and set it aside. Grab the basha and lay it out on your position. String the bungees up. Lay out your sleep system. Put the cook set and clothing back in the ruck. When it’s time, pull out the cook set and make chow. Do it when you can, not when you’re hungry. You need chow for the night ops. Put back in the bottom of the ruck. Lay out clothes for night ops on sleep system. You will be doing these things in between standing watch with your buddy. Conduct night patrol. Return and stand watch. Use spare clothing as a pillow. Before stand-to, remove cook set from ruck. Strike basha and stuff in ruck. Roll up sleep system, stuff in ruck. Remove night clothing, stuff in ruck. Ruck should be fully packed at this point, with you in full kit. Stand to. Then stand watch, cook breakfast. You will need chow for morning ops.

        So as I hope you can see, you are managing all this stuff in different conditions from a civilian hiker, who can lolly-gag and take his time doing whatever he wants. You on the other hand are pressed for time and can’t spend a lot of time fiddling with your gear, especially when you have to stand-to in the morning.

        So some key points from this scenario. Having the bungees pre-attached and ready to go is extremely important, especially for morning stand-to. Using 550 cord is very fiddly.

        Having a sleep system already rigged together and ready to deploy is also important. Using a GI WP bag to stuff it in and out of will save you much time and bullshit. Note: on actual ops, you will roll it up and stuff it in your ruck, ready to move out, when you stand sentry duty. The basha stays up and is struck as necessary, if there’s time. So you really want a system where the sleep system is readily stuffable into the ruck, in low light conditions. You may also notice the order of things stuffed in there may vary. This is just par for the course, in tactical ops.

        Hope this helps explain a little better how a military patrol base works, versus the civilian hiker on a camp out. And how this effects your gear selection and set up.

        Again, this is the optimal set up. It is not absolutely required by any means. Show up with what you got, and train. That’s the important thing. You can survive 24 hours of most anything, even if your kit is lacking. But, if you have the time and money, this is what I’d recommend.

      • #91969
        busyguyintville
        Participant

          Thanks Diz, this is a very, very useful description that I’ve never seen replicated despite having perused a LOT of sites, articles and resources.

        • #91970
          DiznNC
          Participant

            Funny thing is I am basically just re-gurgitating what Max says, but yeah, it bears repeating.

          • #91971
            riflemaniv
            Participant

              Diz,
              Great read. What type of self inflating mat are you talking about? I have a Thermarest I use for backpacking but I don’t think it would fold down small enough to fit inside my bivy bag then into my pack. Usually I have it lashed to the outside of my pack. I will have to try it out this weekend.

            • #91972
              DiznNC
              Participant

                I use a REI half-mat. If I have padding from hips to shoulders I’m a happy camper. My legs can take care of themselves, especially when you keep your boots on. It doesn’t add much bulk and sure makes the difference on cold, hard ground.

              • #91973
                First Sergeant
                Moderator

                  Diz,
                  Great read. What type of self inflating mat are you talking about? I have a Thermarest I use for backpacking but I don’t think it would fold down small enough to fit inside my bivy bag then into my pack. Usually I have it lashed to the outside of my pack. I will have to try it out this weekend.

                  I know Diz answered you, but just to give a different perspective, I use a full size Thermarest. I have been using one for years. You might be surprised just how small you can get it with some practice.

                  FILO
                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                  Je ne regrette rien
                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                • #91974
                  SeanT
                  Keymaster

                    1st Sgt.
                    Got a pic?

                  • #91975
                    First Sergeant
                    Moderator

                      1st Sgt.
                      Got a pic?

                      Laid out or folded up to pack?

                      FILO
                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                      Je ne regrette rien
                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                    • #91976
                      SeanT
                      Keymaster

                        How you pack it. I have a thermarest and its a good pad but not the smallest thing going.

                      • #91977
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          Diz, great info!

                          Thanks

                        • #91978
                          First Sergeant
                          Moderator

                            How you pack it. I have a thermarest and its a good pad but not the smallest thing going.

                            Sean,

                            Sorry it has taken so long, sometimes life gets in the way of doing other things.

                            Here are the pics. I put a 20 oz Coke bottle next to it for reference. For me, it gets small enough. I bought this mat in 1995 before my deployment to Bosnia and have used it all over the world in some pretty fucked up terrain. That is one of the reasons that I recommend Thermarest. They are damn near bomb proof.

                            FILO
                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                            Je ne regrette rien
                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                          • #91979
                            SeanT
                            Keymaster

                              As stupid as it sounds, I never gave thought to folding that thing….Like Riflemaniv my usage was backpacking style load out. No matter what, they are good sleeping pads.

                            • #91980
                              tango
                              Participant

                                Any particular gear tips for a mid-summer class? I’ve been in WV for a whole summer before and I know what that heat/humidity feels like.

                              • #91981
                                tango
                                Participant

                                  Also came across this source for Basha’s in multiple sizes. Experiences? Thoughts?

                                  http://shop.0241tactical.com/Basha-Shelter-Tarpualin-X-Large-Tarps-TARPS.htm

                                • #91982
                                  trailman
                                  Participant

                                    Also came across this source for Basha’s in multiple sizes. Experiences? Thoughts?

                                    http://shop.0241tactical.com/Basha-Shelter-Tarpualin-X-Large-Tarps-TARPS.htm

                                    http://www.velsyst.com/store/197/111/Basha.html

                                  • #91983
                                    tango
                                    Participant

                                      http://www.velsyst.com/store/197/111/Basha.html

                                      Thanks for the link. I was looking at the specs and realized why Diz is recommending the surplus Basha or MVT shield. It’s particularly for the anti-IR treatmeant on both of them.

                                    • #91984
                                      Themagicbusguy
                                      Participant

                                        Diz, where do you carry your fighting load? After I loaded my bag as described it was full. I run a belt system and drop leg shingle, and I’m pretty certain I’m not getting much more in my bag.

                                      • #91985
                                        Themagicbusguy
                                        Participant

                                          If I wear my battle belt, than I’m not able to use the hip belt on my pack. Sounds like I need a chest rig for my fighting load.

                                        • #91986
                                          Mike Q
                                          Participant

                                            The intent when using a battle belt is to NOT use a tall pack with a hip belt. You want to use a short pack which will sit on the back of your battle belt. In other words your battle belt will act as your hip belt for your pack. Make sense?

                                          • #91987
                                            Themagicbusguy
                                            Participant

                                              That might be the case if you are six feet plus tall, but I’m 5’6″, and a 45 ltr karrimor pack hangs down far enough that your suggestion won’t work for me. I’ve tried several setups and I am unable to carry the pack on my butt pack, the bag just rides too high.

                                            • #91988
                                              Mike Q
                                              Participant

                                                I’m 5′-11″ with a fairly long torso, so I can see that being a problem. The only other comment I have about the battle belt with ruck combo is that the belt is supposed to ride at your hip level, not your waist level. Assuming you aren’t already doing so that will gain you about 2″…

                                                90% of the guys I see who go the chest rig route also still use a “light” style belt setup… Most of which don’t put anything around the back side of the belt. Mostly the sides of the belt. There are two threads which go into depth about these issues if you haven’t already reviewed them. One about the “light” battle belt/chest rig combo and the other specifically about ruck interaction with you battle rattle setup. But honestly every time I go and train I adjust my rig. Hell if you go back and read through the blog posts Max himself is still changing his setup. I have come to the conclusion we are all gear whores to a certain level and are never finished moving stuff around…

                                              • #91989
                                                DiznNC
                                                Participant

                                                  TMBG:

                                                  OK, what you need to do is run “ranger” or shoulder straps on the belt (I like Vickers or BFG), and rig it a little lower than usual, which will allow for the ruck. This was common practice among Ranger and recon types back in my day. The belt is worn slightly looser to allow for this (that is, not tight against the hips). Also, make sure the shoulder straps on the ruck are adjusted so it rides as high as possible. Pull the top load stabilizer straps as tight as they will go. Then cinch the shoulder straps up to clear the belt kit. Look at some pics of Brit belt kit (on ebay). You may need to go to their pouches, which sit flush with the top of the belt, versus USGI which sit higher, and therefor interfere with the ruck. They also use two separate sustainment pouches on back instead of one buttpack. And yeah, I use a chest rig so there’s more room on the belt line (for pistol gear n such if you’re running it).

                                                • #91990
                                                  tango
                                                  Participant

                                                    Would somebody mind pointing me in the direction of a good RGB headlamp? I started looking around and the only 2 decent ones I find are the one from Cabela’s and the Petzl Tactikka. Recent amazon reviews for the Petzl are quite bad saying the quality went down the tubes.

                                                  • #91991
                                                    trailman
                                                    Participant
                                                    • #91992
                                                      tango
                                                      Participant

                                                        The lens changing seems less-than-ideal to me.

                                                        Here’s the Cabela’s one. It actually doesn’t turn on the white light until you purposely hold down the button for 3 seconds.
                                                        http://www.cabelas.com/product/CABELAS-XPG-RGB-II/1716920.uts

                                                      • #91993
                                                        trailman
                                                        Participant

                                                          The colored lens slides up and down, its seems pretty durable to me and there is no mistaking, no counting clicks.

                                                        • #91994
                                                          First Sergeant
                                                          Moderator

                                                            I have used a Petzl Tactikka for years. Recently(last 7months or so) got a new one because the elastic in the head band finally gave up the ghost. Some may have had issues, but I have never had any issues at all. And it is a hell of a lot easier to slide the colored lens one way or the other than having to remember to count clicks or seconds. When I am out in the woods, I always keep it on the colored lens. I used one for both of my tours in Afghanistan.

                                                            One thing to remember, while red lens was the color to use for years, we found out during OIF and OEF that blue light works better. The reason? You can’t see blood under red lens at night. It washes out. Blue lens allows you to see it. Same goes for maps, if it is not marked “Red Light Readable” it washes out the contour lines.

                                                            FILO
                                                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                            Je ne regrette rien
                                                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                          • #91995
                                                            tango
                                                            Participant

                                                              So my concern of having to be dynamic with the color changes is unnecessary? If you guys are just keeping a single colored lens in there all the time then I would definitely be more inclined to look at those.

                                                            • #91996
                                                              First Sergeant
                                                              Moderator

                                                                So my concern of having to be dynamic with the color changes is unnecessary? If you guys are just keeping a single colored lens in there all the time then I would definitely be more inclined to look at those.

                                                                I keep the same colored lens in all the time. I never change it. No reason to. If I am somewhere that I can use white light, just slide the colored lens out of the way.

                                                                FILO
                                                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                Je ne regrette rien
                                                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                              • #91997
                                                                tango
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Exactly the help I needed guys. Thanks.

                                                                • #91998
                                                                  Max
                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                    After taking the CP class 2 yrs ago, I have changed my gear a good bit. One important part was to get some lighter/more compact gear so I could move to a smaller pack. I have a moderate sized Camelback pack that they no longer produce. It doesn’t have a hip belt and rides perfectly on top of the battle belt. With gear compressed I can use this as a small patrol pack and it is all a good bit lighter.

                                                                    A lifetime ago I extensively backpacked, and even as a young man my goal was to travel light. As an old fart now, my mobility is FAR better with less gear. I am back to weighing EVERYTHING…even weapon accessories! It makes a lot of difference. I am even looking at the ultralight gear that BFG makes!

                                                                  • #91999
                                                                    tango
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      If you go the Large ALICE pack route with your ruck, are you guys running/suggesting a frame with it? NOT the full metal frame, I know that. Somebody posted a link to this plastic pack frame in another thread and I’m wondering if this sits on top of the belt properly?
                                                                      https://www.entrygear.com/product.asp?id=1606AC

                                                                    • #92000
                                                                      Lloyd
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Diz,

                                                                        Just wanted you to know that I followed your advice about setting up my Karrimor Predator Patrol 45 almost to the letter, and it worked out very well. I added an ATS “Large GP Pouch”, which is just the right size for a folded up MVT Shield. Also had zip-on Karrimor side pouches to carry PVS-14, some spare mags, and MRE trash. Very simple setup, easy to get stuff in and out in the dark, not too big, not too small.

                                                                        This little ruck will hold more than I have any business trying to carry, but also compresses really well.

                                                                      • #92001
                                                                        DiznNC
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Just as an update/clarification here, the fighting load out, in conjunction with the rucksack. You want a ruck sack that is slightly shorter than what you’d use as a civvy mountaineering ruck. The Karrimor 45L still rocks out. I have also been experimenting with the Brit issue MTP short back and long back Bergens. Depending on your torso height. The short back works well for guys up to about 5’10” or so. The long back actually works well for those 5’11” or taller. It all depends on your torso length, from base of neck to top of waist belt. You want the ruck riding right at the top of where your waist belt lies. This is typically several inches HIGHER than a civvy rucksack, with integrated hipbelt.

                                                                          Now the belt kit. I have found that the Brit style pouches, which are FLUSH with the top of the belt, work the best. The ruck will now sit atop these pouches, instead of fighting with them. USGI pouches typically set up a little higher, so either the canteen filler caps, or the buttpack will fight the ruck. You have to either rig these a little lower (with shoulder straps) to clear the ruck, or go with Brit pouches (all over ebay).

                                                                          The USGI rucks, either ALICE or Molle will work, with external polymer frames. But you really need the brit pouches for best fit with the belt kit.

                                                                          So if your lumbar measurement is below say 16″, you really would benefit from getting a Brit Karrimor ruck, or short back Bergen, AND using their belt kit pouches.

                                                                          As to mag pouches on the belt line, vs the chest rig. I just find the chest rig more easily accessible, although YMMV. You just about need it if you’re gonna run pistol gear though. Hard to get enough rifle mags and pistol gear onto one belt.

                                                                          In conclusion, after many months of Tabbing practice, I have found the hipbelt isn’t really necessary. The belt kit can replace it, and you can still run a heavy ruck without it. I know this flies in the face of conventional back-packing wisdom, but we’re doing something different here.

                                                                        • #92002
                                                                          tango
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            Are mosquito nets a bad idea for use in the patrol base?

                                                                          • #92003
                                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                            Moderator

                                                                              Are mosquito nets a bad idea for use in the patrol base?

                                                                              How bad are the bugs?

                                                                              If you can’t get sufficient rest because of bugs buzzing and biting, you will need to find a solution that works for your given situation.

                                                                            • #92004
                                                                              tango
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                How much water is enough to carry for the summer? Currently I have:
                                                                                1L Nalgene on belt
                                                                                3L Bladder in patrol pack
                                                                                2qt soft canteen (cooking) in ruck

                                                                              • #92005
                                                                                trailman
                                                                                Participant

                                                                                  How much water is enough to carry for the summer? Currently I have:
                                                                                  1L Nalgene on belt
                                                                                  3L Bladder in patrol pack
                                                                                  2qt soft canteen (cooking) in ruck

                                                                                  Its a training op, there will be water on site. Carry what you need. Don’t forget you will probably cook. Real life carry what you need resupply where you planned.

                                                                                • #92006
                                                                                  Mike Q
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    Tango,
                                                                                    For training. I would suggest 1 liter to cook for the overnight portion. 2 to 3 liters on your rig for drinking. 2 liters in your ruck for the overnight. I would also bring a dozen bottles of water with you to the pavilion and refill as necessary.

                                                                                    As for the real thing, that is up to you. But I would suggest at least 2 liters and 2 ways to filter. But then again different people intake more then others. Use the CP class to learn what works or doesn’t work. The good news is you’ll be in the warmest time of the year with the most water consumption requirement.

                                                                                  • #92007
                                                                                    trailman
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      How much water is enough to carry for the summer? Currently I have:
                                                                                      1L Nalgene on belt
                                                                                      3L Bladder in patrol pack
                                                                                      2qt soft canteen (cooking) in ruck

                                                                                      Its a training op, there will be water on site. Carry what you need. Don’t forget you will probably cook. Real life carry what you need resupply where you planned.

                                                                                      Actually what Mike said. I interpreted what yo9u wrote differently :unsure: ,

                                                                                    • #92008
                                                                                      First Sergeant
                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                        There will be water on site and you will be given time to refill. You will be HIGHLY encouraged to hydrate during the entire class.

                                                                                        Most people have no clue just how much water is necessary to function in any type of environment. Much less when you are active.

                                                                                        While I use and like dehydrated meals(Mountain House) for the convenience and weight savings, you have to carry a lot more water than normal.

                                                                                        FILO
                                                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                      • #92009
                                                                                        tango
                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                          Thanks for the helpful info guys. The fact that it’s training and we’ll get to refill is great but I still want to make sure I’m doing it as realistically as possible. Learning my personal water intake under those circumstances will definitely be one item to note.

                                                                                        • #92010
                                                                                          Brian from Georgia
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            I normally drink 3-4 quarts of water per day in my role as desk jockey who PT’s for an hour after work. On patrol class in August, I took in around 6-7 quarts per day.

                                                                                            Train up if you want to carry a realistic load. Those hills will wipe you out with a full ruck, LBE, rifle, etc.

                                                                                        Viewing 42 reply threads
                                                                                        • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.