Cliven Bundy – Racist?

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    • #64291
      JohnyMac
      Participant

        I know that this post will make a few uncomfortable and I will receive a slue of rebuffs but what the heck – Here goes.

        I think the good Lord just handed many of us, me included a “slap down” and hopefully a lesson.

        Here is what Mr. Bundy said in a recent interview with the New York Times.

        “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

        “And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

        After I read this quote by Mr. Bundy, Deuteronomy 18:20 came to mind:

        But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die

        I suspect that their will be other folks that come along in the near future that will lure you and me down the wrong path because we are men & women of action. The question is: Will we look back to this Drama and learn from it before we grab musket, powder and ball and run to the sound of battle.

        In closing, this Drama is going to come back to haunt many Patriot, and Tea Party groups that we have or will associate with in the future. Bummer!

      • #64292
        Eric
        Participant

          I don’t think the rational mind would read that as a racist statement. It is just a very sad fact that .gov has, for decades, created voting slaves.

          Many within the ranks of the controlling entities have successfully sold the idea that the plight of minorities, and specifically those of african descent, is the fault of everyone else.

          I was a mentor for a young man a number of years ago in St. Petersburg Florida who happened to be black. His mama worked three jobs to provide for their family. She refused to take government handouts, and she wouldn’t allow her children to either. In her words:”I aint livin on no government plantation.”

          We were setting on their porch talking one evening, and she started pointing out houses around theirs, and talking about how no one, in any of those houses worked.

          She talked about how all of them were on food stamps, welfare, medicaid, and every other program available, and how unfair it was that all they had to do was drop another child, and they got more money. And how horrible it was that, again in her words:”None of those children stand a chance in life. All they will ever know is hatred, and anger, and belief that it is someone else’s responsibility to care for them.”

          Preach it sister.

        • #64293
          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
          Moderator

            Well my first thought is one of “can we trust the source” in this case the NYTimes?

            My next thought, does it matter?

            We are supposed have “Free Exercise of our Rights,” does the person we consider ignorant, disagreeable etc have any less Rights?

            Provided of course he/she doesn’t physically hinder the Rights of others.

            Ruby Ridge and the Weaver family, they were self described “White Separatists,” they had no desire to hinder the Rights of others, they just didn’t want to mingle with those that were different, including those that worshiped God differently from them.

            So did they deserve what happened to them?

            Of course I know many “Old Timers” that their views on race are wrong in my opinion, but again are they actively hindering the Rights of others, or just expressing ignorant views?

            Since you quote Deuteronomy, maybe this maybe of use:

            Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)
            [ Love for Enemies ] “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. …
            Matthew 5:42-48 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)

            Romans 12:20 (NIV)

            20 On the contrary:

            “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
            if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
            In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

            If we believe in the principles of the “Bill of Rights” then we can’t just apply those principles to good men, they apply to all men.

            So is Bundy an imperfect man? Yes as we all are in one way or another.

            But does that mean he forfeits his Rights?

            Of course many men have been slandered to paint the picture of the “Evil Bad Guy” to lessen the public reaction to Government abuse.

            How many ignorant people believe the Branch Davidians got what they deserved?

            No, even if Bundy is a “racist right winger,” he doesn’t deserve to receive a corrupt Governments abusive behavior.

          • #64294
            Mike H
            Participant

              I saw this report on msnbc this morning. Mentioned in earlier AARs from the ranch standoff were observations that Bundy senior wasn’t the best spokesman because of his way of addressing issue. He should have stayed on topic about property rights…the NYT weasel dangled the bait no doubt and senior took it.

            • #64295
              Max
              Keymaster

                now we know were the liberal/progressive media is heading with the Bundy ranch stand off. not surprised playing the race card. straight out of the administration playbook. this is how they operate, can’t back up facts so, they villify. good lesson. it will come to us in the future.

              • #64296
                Max
                Keymaster

                  Make no mistake, the .gov/media complex will spare no effort to demonize the Bundys, their supporters on the ground, and by extension the rest of us who might sympathize with their plight. It’s that last part that will backfire.

                  There’s really no way to thread that needle, so they clumsily try to paint Bundy as a racist; ergo, if you sympathize with or support him you are by extension also racist.

                  Instead of trying to defuse the situation, they appear to be doubling down on stupid. All too predictable.

                • #64297
                  Ernie
                  Participant

                    I find it the greatest source of hypocrisy how the liberal “elite” want to judge us through historical racism and slavery in America. This is the best weapon the Politically Correct crowd has in their arsenal. However, if you want to discuss modern slavery in Muslum countries if abducted Christians the topic can’t be changed fast enough or your a racist Islanaphobe! To put it simply, Fuck em!

                    Ernie

                  • #64298
                    Corvette
                    Participant

                      Well my first thought is one of “can we trust the source” in this case the NYTimes?

                      My next thought, does it matter?

                      We are ………e believe the Branch Davidians got what they deserved?

                      No, even if Bundy is a “racist right winger,” he doesn’t deserve to receive a corrupt Governments abusive behavior.

                      Great post.

                      I hope you dont mind but i used a copy/paste of an abbreviated verion of your post to engage in AgitProp in the yahoo comments section. :bye:

                    • #64299
                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                      Moderator

                        No problem at all.

                      • #64300
                        Ernie
                        Participant

                          Sorry guys, I was up until 3:00 am with a sick child and have been dealing with that all morning. I read the post and went straight to angry. Let me try again.

                          I’m not that old but grew up in a different world. The people of color in my neighborhood were married, worked, and made enormous sacrifices to see their children educated and to have a better life then they did. In essence, they were no different than my parents. Everyone shared the same work ethics and goals.

                          When I read Bundy’s reported comments I see something different than the spin the article is giving. I hear an arguably inarticulate man lamenting the waste of three or four generations of human beings due to government lies and corruption. The world I knew is gone. What has happened to the African American culture, religion, and family is a travesty and a crime on par with what we did to the Native Americans.

                          The liberal “elite” believe they know what is best for an entire culture they are not a part of? I work daily in that community and can tell you it will take generations, if ever, to fix what the liberals and government has done. I can only guess what Bundy meant, but that is how I see it.

                          Ernie

                        • #64301
                          Eric
                          Participant

                            Sorry guys, I was up until 3:00 am with a sick child and have been dealing with that all morning. I read the post and went straight to angry. Let me try again.

                            I’m not that old but grew up in a different world. The people of color in my neighborhood were married, worked, and made enormous sacrifices to see their children educated and to have a better life then they did. In essence, they were no different than my parents. Everyone shared the same work ethics and goals.

                            When I read Bundy’s reported comments I see something different than the spin the article is giving. I hear an arguably inarticulate man lamenting the waste of three or four generations of human beings due to government lies and corruption. The world I knew is gone. What has happened to the African American culture, religion, and family is a travesty and a crime on par with what we did to the Native Americans.

                            The liberal “elite” believe they know what is best for an entire culture they are not a part of? I work daily in that community and can tell you it will take generations, if ever, to fix what the liberals and government has done. I can only guess what Bundy meant, but that is how I see it.

                            Ernie

                            Bingo Ernie…

                            It is always put out there that all of the programs, and aid, and wealth redistribution is done in the name of concern, compassion and empathy.

                            The truth is that the elites don’t give a shit about these people. They see them as a political bargaining chip. They are nothing more than a captive voting block to serve their purposes.

                            They cry “RACIST!” at every opportunity while they hold these people in subservience. It is one of the worst kinds of evil.

                            BTW, hope the young’n gets better soon.

                          • #64302
                            Scott G
                            Participant

                              I look at the original post and what I think the point was is that the patriot movement might be tainted by supporting someone who may be racist.
                              I take a different view. I do not see myself as having been supportive of Bundy. I was upset at the way the government acted. The analogy I had in my head was was of police brutality in arresting a criminal. If we fight the brutality are we tainted because the recipient of the brutality was criminal?
                              I know that in many ways Bundy is wrong. He has had multiple days in court and come out on the losing side. I just resent the government sending in all those armed BLM agents the way they did. Especially if the reports about Sharptons indebtedness to the government are true and he hangs out with the POTUS.
                              I dont care if Bundy is racist, stupid, or just a dick. I was against the way the whole situation was handled on the part of the .gov!
                              Just my $.02.

                            • #64303
                              JohnyMac
                              Participant

                                Bingo Scott G. You nailed my sentiments squarely on the head.

                                I enjoyed reading the many well thought out responses to my original post on this topic and especially your scripture choices GWNS. :good:

                                I to believe that the BLM went WAY to far in executing control over Mr. Bundy. I am very happy that a group of men and women went to his ranch to support him against the approach the BLM/Government took. What concerns me is that some people (Not on this forum but others you & I frequent) were starting to put Mr. Bundy up as the leader of a Patriot movement – He ain’t.

                                What also concerns me is that rational men & women, in a wanting to change what has happened over the last two decades and especially over the past six years; will gravitate towards a person that will cause more problems then they are worth.

                                Please vet out our hero’s before we put them on a pedestal. As my mother use to say, “You will be judged by the friends you keep.”

                                PS: Ernie, I hope the crumb cruncher is doing better today :yahoo:

                              • #64304
                                Ernie
                                Participant

                                  JM,

                                  Thanks, he is doing better but not up to school. I’ve kicked the wife and other two kids out to break this chain.

                                  Your absolutely right, Bundy is no hero. What I see is we have to take the narrative back from the Progs. If the use the racist/Islamaphobe card our answer should be ” So what?” Make them actually articulate their arguments and justify their claims. We haven’t done that in a long time.

                                  They can call me a racist all they want. I guarantee I have spent more time and invested more effort in the black community then they ever thought of. It is so sad to see the people who have given up on a future due to what the government has pigeonholed them into.

                                  Ernie

                                • #64305
                                  Scott G
                                  Participant

                                    I think a lot in the Patriot movement were looking to the Bundy Ranch to be the next Lexington. I think some WANTED something to happen so they could feel legitimized in their response.
                                    I have thought it could happen several times. My wife disagrees. She thinks most in todays society are going to wait for it to start somewhere else so they can join, but that way everyone is waiting and nothing ever happens. Kind of the way we let our Liberty and Rights be taken away as much as we have on the last 50ish years.

                                  • #64306
                                    Max
                                    Keymaster

                                      I think a lot in the Patriot movement were looking to the Bundy Ranch to be the next Lexington. I think some WANTED something to happen so they could feel legitimized in their response.<br>
                                      I have thought it could happen several times. My wife disagrees. She thinks most in todays society are going to wait for it to start somewhere else so they can join, but that way everyone is waiting and nothing ever happens. Kind of the way we let our Liberty and Rights be taken away as much as we have on the last 50ish years.

                                      Well, who wants to be the first martyr?

                                    • #64307
                                      Submariner
                                      Participant

                                        H/T to WRSA for timeliness:

                                        Fred: “So What?”

                                      • #64308
                                        Lineman
                                        Participant

                                          I’ve always wondered why we as freedom loving people demand that others of our nature be perfect according to what we or others think perfection is..We then distance ourselves when they are not up to our standards instead of standing by them to keep defending them from evil…The left or progressives on the other hand if one of them screw up on wording or other pc bullshit they all circle the wagons and stand up for them…We need to realize we all are not perfect and that evil will use whatever it can to make us isolated from friends and family so it can rip us to shreds…I still stand with Bundy…Its sick that they have to use that to justify the feds being evil to him…

                                        • #64309
                                          aveighter
                                          Participant

                                            Before we get all exercised over this, watch the unedited video of what he actually said.

                                            And the commentary here:
                                            Bundy, Bunkerville, Racism and Collectivist Desperation

                                            Then decide. In one of my many previous lives I spent some time in broadcast news. In the video editing room you can make mother Theresa come off like hitlers handmaiden.

                                          • #64310
                                            Max
                                            Keymaster

                                              There is a LOT more at stake here than cows and turtles. What is the connection between Harry Reid and this land? Was this area to be a mitigation area for a multi-billion dollar solar project? Why did BLM remove documents from their website?

                                              Whatever the truth about the purpose planned for this land, the BLM and the government can not allow themselves to be made the fool by a bunch of gun-owners, cowboys, and militia. Therefore, they ran a disinformation op to demonize Bundy and place doubt in the minds of those supporting him. Without that support, the green light is lit for the Feds to grab Bundy and his supporters and throw them all in jail.

                                            • #64311
                                              Max
                                              Keymaster

                                                JohnyMac,
                                                You should know better than to take anything in the NYT at face value. It’s a government propaganda organ.
                                                The short answer to the title of this thread: No. But the character assassination train and the divide and conquer strategy are just getting cranked up.

                                                Bundy, Bunkerville, Racism and Collectivist Desperation

                                              • #64312
                                                JohnyMac
                                                Participant

                                                  I hear ya’ Singlestack. O-Kay lets say he is not a racist but a bigot – Is that any better?

                                                  Difference between a bigot and Racism:The main difference between racist and bigot is that fact that racism discriminates on the basis of race, whereas a bigot discriminates on the basis of his personal opinion, which can include race, gender, religion or beliefs.

                                                  Mr. Bundy is actually not a racist but a bigot. I was wrong in my title of which I apologize.

                                                  Being a bigot he discriminates based on his opinion (s). Bigotry has no bounds as it includes religion, gender, beliefs and race. What other pearls of wisdom will come out of this mans mouth about: Puerto Ricans, Catholics, easterners, Jews, etcetera?

                                                  I too am a bigot as in my opinion or belief, Mr. Bundy used poor judgment in his choice of comparisons describing his subjugation to the Government, compared to slavery pre 1860.

                                                  I heard in Mr. Bundy’s statements, he eluded to the fact that slavery under a master that makes men and women work like rented mules, under the lash and controlled by food… A master that breeds a man & women as you would swine to sell or slaughter; is better than living under the current government – He know not what he speaks of.

                                                  The question here is: Do you (everybody evolved in this discussion) want to associate with a man who thinks as Mr. Bundy does and articulates his position as poorly as he does? I do not.

                                                  Do I agree with the premise that 200 well armed BLM agents should have arrived at his ranch to do Insert atrocity here ? Absolutely not? Do I think the arrival of hundreds of protesters many armed, helped turn the BLM away from there task? Absolutely!

                                                  “His is no master people; he is an exploiter: the Jews are a people of robbers. He has never founded any civilization, though he has destroyed civilizations by the hundred…everything he has stolen. Foreign people, foreign workmen build him his temples, it is foreigners who create and work for him, it is foreigners who shed their blood for him.” Adolf Hitler

                                                  Was Mr. Hitler a racist or bigot? Would you agree with his premise? Would you want him to represent you and your organization?

                                                  A bit over the top on my part; However I want to make a point. So before I get jumped on, NO I DO NOT THINK MR. BUNDY IS ANOTHER HITLER! ;-)

                                                  Just thoughts and comments from an old fart, at the family’s redoubt, to ponder over; as the MSM starts to sling stones and arrows at Patriots like yourselves thanks to Mr. Bundy.

                                                • #64313
                                                  Lineman
                                                  Participant

                                                    You need to do a little more research dude before you go spouting off at something you have no idea about…You ever talked to Mr Bundy…I highly doubt it…You just as bad as left calling names of a person you have just read about in the news…Makes me question anything you say now since apparently you like being led around like a sheep…

                                                  • #64314
                                                    JohnyMac
                                                    Participant

                                                      Thank you Lineman for your well thought out comments. I always appreciate all sides of a discussion.

                                                      A very respected boss of mine use to say, “No matter how thinly you slice the baloney, there is always two sides. ;-)

                                                    • #64315
                                                      Lineman
                                                      Participant

                                                        Thank you as well for showing what kind a man you are….Are you sure your on the right forum…I guess you only want to defend those that are perfect in your eyes….

                                                      • #64316
                                                        JohnyMac
                                                        Participant

                                                          Lineman, PM on its way.

                                                        • #64317
                                                          aveighter
                                                          Participant

                                                            A careful listening and consideration of what the man actually said shows quite clearly that he is anything but a racist.

                                                            As far as the bigotry goes, I would suggest that (using the supplied definition) if you are not a bigot…then you are a fool.

                                                            We discriminate based on personal opinion and experience all the time. This is also known as using judgement, hopefully good judgement. There are all sorts of things, ideas, cultures and cultural practices and personal choices individuals make that are demonstrably bad. The successful among us, using our well developed ability to discriminate, avoid these things. The end and cumulative result is not only a successful individual but a successful culture and a civil society.

                                                            One our great failings as a nation and a culture in modern time is allowing language to be “redefined” by those who seek to destroy us. People allow themselves to be cowed into submission when perfectly legitimate words and concepts are turned upside down and used against them. The ability to speak truth is therefore removed and we are living the results of that now.

                                                            As for me, I am very much the “cultural bigot”. I don’t much care what a man looks like or where he is from. I care very much what he thinks and believes and on that basis will discriminate vigorously one way or the other.

                                                            In preparation for the upcoming excitement I would suggest we become adept at the proper use of our language. I promise team tyranny is adept at using it against us.

                                                          • #64318
                                                            Corvette
                                                            Participant

                                                              Ok poster easy on making disparaging remarks about other members here (you know who you are)
                                                              We can disagree respectfully.

                                                            • #64319
                                                              JohnyMac
                                                              Participant

                                                                Well written aveighter! Thank you for participating in this discussion which was the whole reason I started it – To have a discussion.

                                                                For some reason I think somewhere due to my poor writing skills I have ruffled the feathers of some folks on this forum. Controversial events beget controversial discussions.

                                                                I have stated my position ad nauseam and will not again as I have not changed my opinion.

                                                                With that said, Thank You for participating :good:

                                                              • #64320
                                                                Lineman
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Ok poster easy on making disparaging remarks about other members here (you know who you are)<br>
                                                                  We can disagree respectfully.

                                                                  I assume your talking to me…When a man calls out someone by calling him a racist and now a bigot which the left throw around like candy it gets my hackles up…What if Mr. Bundy was your father or grandfather would you not stand up for him…Since he or his family probably doesn’t know about this site I filled in…This is a site about freedom and liberty is it not…

                                                                • #64321
                                                                  Corvette
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    Yes it is.. but you cant be addressing Johny in the way you have.

                                                                    We can all disagree on things and stand up for folks who aren’t here.
                                                                    Who knows I may even agree with your viewpoint.
                                                                    But We need to stay polite and respectful to each other on here.

                                                                    Fair enough?

                                                                  • #64322
                                                                    Lineman
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      Fair enough…My mom always told me my hot blood would be a thing I would have to temper to live peaceable with all men…

                                                                    • #64323
                                                                      Eric
                                                                      Participant
                                                                      • #64324
                                                                        JohnyMac
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Oh my God! Eric I love it! :yahoo: Thanks for posting the picture :good:

                                                                        • #64325
                                                                          Max
                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                            Riffin’ On Stooges

                                                                            The post is short, but the comments are instructive. Go to the FEMA links and look at their PIO program.

                                                                            As much as I despise Mitch McConnell, the man can hold a press conference: He rarely departs from his talking points and it infuriates people who try to trip him up. There’s a lesson there.

                                                                            Lesson 2 is “Never trust anyone with a camera to exercise good judgment.” The Marines who pissed on the Taliban were filmed by one of their own who stupidly posted it.

                                                                            I’m grumpy about that to the point I ask people I’ve known for 20 years to leave their cell phones in the car.

                                                                            Here’s a fine example:

                                                                            The embedded journalist had been with this unit for several weeks, when they requested and received permission from a general officer to burn the bodies for field sanitation reasons. Note how the journalist says they were pointed toward Mecca to desecrate them. Not. In any event, the message broadcast was not what was shown (That was edited in later.). The message was to the effect “You cannot bury them as is your custom but we treat you with respect.” The journalist’s editing resulted in a fire storm of the usual hoo and hah and a near court martial until the GO stepped in and said “Yeah, I ordered that and here’s why.” They PSYOP Soldier who made the actual broadcast later worked for me in Iraq and his det commander is an old friend, so I got to see the actual footage and the reports. Never, ever trust ’em. As noted elsewhere, the “conservative” journalists are just as bad.

                                                                            Keep the message short and consistent: Don’t give them time to edit.

                                                                          • #64326
                                                                            Eric
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              Oh my God! Eric I love it! :yahoo: Thanks for posting the picture :good:

                                                                              Aint it somethin…

                                                                              the white liberal media, and the race pimps like jackson and sharpton have gone out of their way to try to make this guy out to be a rabid racist, and the Black Panthers have his back. The word “Ironic” does not begin to encompass how epic this is.

                                                                              P.S. there is a picture on their facebook page :”Black Panthers for Cliven Bundy” that looks like they were actually at the ranch.

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