Cheap White Phosphor Night vision

View Latest Activity

Home Forums The Armory – Gear and Equipment Optics Cheap White Phosphor Night vision

Viewing 15 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #106631
      Robert
      Participant

        Many of you have asked about White Phosphor night vision tubes. Till recently WP tubes have been excessively high priced when purchased from ITT/Harris or L3, hence the close to $4,000. price tag on various WP PVS14s.

        Photonis, a European tube manufacturer has been bringing in White Phosphor tubes that are a good bit cheaper than the Harris or L3 tubes.

        An important thing to note-
        The Photonis tubes are not true 3rd generation tubes. You may see specifications as high or nearly as high as 3rd generation tubes, the Photonis tubes are not true 3rd gen. May mean nothing to you, or may mean everything.

        Just like with Harris and L3 tubes, their is a great variance in what to expect in different grades of the Photonis tubes. Be sure you read item descriptions well and ask if you have any questions relating to this.

        Also like with a lot of Night vision, there are various flavors of units out there and quality of build varies from some jamoke playing builder in his garage to high quality units with warranties coming from reputable manufacturers. Again, something to “research” and ask about before making a buying purchase.

        All things considered, being able to get into a White Phosphor PVS14 for around $2,500 is a great thing, but again, be sure what you are buying. Many dealers have not been very circumspect with their descriptions of these Photonis tubes, most not even telling the truth that they are not true 3rd gen units.

        We (JRH Enterprises) are carrying these units with Photonis tubes now in two flavors- a “Commercial Spec” version and an “ECHO Spec” version, with the ECHO spec unit having the better resolution and fewer blems.

        https://www.jrhenterprises.com/Photonis-PVS14-White-Phosphor-ECHO-SPEC-monocular-nvdphotonis14ECHOspec.htm

        As always, mention if you are an MVT Alumni or forum member when ordering so we can hook you up :good:

        If you have any questions about these units, please feel free to call or email us
        robert@jrhenterprises.com
        912.379.9441 or 912.375.1480

        See you at class!

      • #106632
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          The Photonis 4G tubes are rated to a much higher standard/longevity compared to their XR5 tubes. The XR5’s worked well, but the user life was extremely short.

          From a previous thread concerning NIR detection…

          For example:

          Photonis is a leading multinational high-technology group, with experience in manufacture, sales and innovation specializing in photo sensor imaging technologies since 1937.

          Photonis is a global manufacturer of electro-optic components used in the detection of ions, electrons and photons. We innovate and engineer quality components for integration into a variety of applications such as night vision optics, digital cameras, mass spectrometry, physics research, space exploration and many others.

          Photonis has set the following standard for 4G Technology is a set of capabilities described by minimum specifications of modern Night Vision to deliver to end-users the highest performance in all field conditions.

          4G Night Vision standard is defined by:

          1 – An Extended Bandwidth of photon collection to deliver a consistently high image quality in all environments (from below 400nm to above 1.000nm)

          2 – A FOM (figure of merit being Signal to Noise Ratio times the Resolution : SNR* R) above 1.800

          3 – A Resolution always superior to 57 lp/mm even in the most polluted light environments such as urban areas or when entering a building where the light is suddenly switched on

          4 – A Halo size never larger than 0.7mm around the brightest objects seen in the image to provide the highest details around the light sources

          Note above bold: Ultraviolet (UV) has a wavelength from 10 nm to 400 nm.

          So I would be careful with Army’s current interpretation, which tends to be “scope locked” on low technology threats.

          From Roberts JRH product description:

          Photonis Echo Technology offers ultra-fast Auto-Gating, the smallest Halo, and the spectral range varying from ultraviolet to near infrared. Manual gain control allows you to control how much or how little light enters the tube and is an important feature to have in a PVS14.

          The Photonis tubes are focused on a slightly different bandwidth spectrum than US tubes, this actually maybe a good thing, however there hasn’t been sufficient comparison in actual field use to prove one way or another.

          I commend Robert for being so upfront about the real specs of these NVD’s, but this is what I’ve come to expect from him and JRH! :good:

          You can never go wrong with doing business with him.

        • #106633
          JohnnyMac
          Participant

            Thanks for the intel Robert!

          • #106634
            Robert
            Participant

              Pretty nice for the price boys!!!

              These just started shipping-

              Photonis WHITE PHOSPHOR tube PVS14 with 10 year warranty

              Specifications-

              FOM 2202
              Resolution 69
              Signal to noise ratio- 31.91
              Halo .70

              One blem zone 3 (outer band)

              This unit is awesome for the price!!!

              I have long told people I don’t think White Phosphor is worth the $1,000. difference in price. Well NOW, you can get a high quality WHITE PHOSPHOR tube for around the same price as a green tube HP

              https://www.jrhenterprises.com/Photo…14ECHOspec.htm

            • #106635
              tango
              Participant

                In laymen’s terms, what makes these “not 3rd gen”?
                As a consumer/end user, what difference will I notice?

              • #106636
                Robert
                Participant

                  In laymen’s terms, what makes these “not 3rd gen”?
                  As a consumer/end user, what difference will I notice?

                  The “generations” thing is primarily a US designation. I’m just trying to be a bit technical and a good bit above board in stating that, few others are saying that.

                  Given the 69 LP and 31 SN on this unit I received, I would say it’s above a lot of specifications you see for US 3rd Gen tubes. It’s also autogated and has manual gain control.

                  If anything, you may see more blems then you might in a $4,200. WP unit. The one in the pic has a blem in Zone 3 that’s visible and 2 more not very visible ones in Zone 2 and 3.

                • #106637
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    Here is some thoughts I’ve stated before, but feel is worth repeating.

                    Also like with a lot of Night vision, there are various flavors of units out there and quality of build varies from some jamoke playing builder in his garage to high quality units with warranties coming from reputable manufacturers.

                    This is something to pay close attention to and don’t let your pocketbook convince you to ignore it.

                    There are few here who know enough about night vision to truly make a informed choice on bargains, there are occasional deals to be found on the used market if your technical expertise is there.

                    Is that really you?

                    I highly recommend taking Robert up on his offer…

                    If you have any questions about these units, please feel free to call or email us
                    robert@jrhenterprises.com
                    912.379.9441 or 912.375.1480

                    I have purchased many items through JRH and know many more who have also, this is long before this Forum existed. In fact even when he was still in Florida (how long has that been?).

                    I have never heard of a legitimate complaint in all of those years.

                    Always ready to take time to answer questions, even regarding very small orders.

                    I have never met him in person, hope to change that one day.

                  • #106638
                    Robert
                    Participant

                      Thanks Joe!!!

                    • #106639
                      JohnnyMac
                      Participant

                        Always ready to take time to answer questions, even regarding very small orders.

                        I’ve had the same experience.
                        :good:

                      • #106640
                        tango
                        Participant

                          Thanks @lowdown3

                          Are these built with the 4G tubes?
                          Photonis 4G Datasheet

                        • #106641
                          Robert
                          Participant

                            ECHO tubes.

                          • #106642
                            Robert
                            Participant

                              @Tango

                              So looking at the 4g link you sent and comparing, the specs here on the ECHO grade tube just received here are very similar.

                              Res- 69 lp/mm
                              SN- 31.91
                              HALO- 0.70

                              Copies of data sheets from other Photonis ECHO spec units we’ve sold recently show as good or better numbers as the one I received above. But of course every tube is different.

                              The TRUE 4G tubes are pretty damn expensive. What complicates the matter also is that everyone seems to use “Photonis 4G” in their marketing, despite their units using ECHO or Commspec tubes, further confusing the hell out of everyone (perhaps intentionally?)

                            • #106643
                              tango
                              Participant

                                Sounds a bit like diamonds. They build, test, and grade them.

                                I’m as far down this rabbit hole as trying to figure out how Photocathodes are made :wacko: With a vague understanding of the process there would be some natural variability in the final product (what we call the tubes). So I *think* the build, test, grade idea is probably close to what Photonis does internally. If the highest grade is the True 4G then they are choosing only top percentile of the production group and grading them as such. What would make it Echo or Comm spec would be the blems, in respectively descending order.

                                Again, this is an educated guess. I don’t have any insider info.

                                All that said, the Echo spec is still meeting or exceeding all of the minimum requirements on the “True 4G” data sheet. They’re definitely not lower performance.

                                TL;DR A tiny blem saves us a chunk of change.

                                Am I understanding all that right, Robert?

                              • #106644
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  (perhaps intentionally?)

                                  Imagine tbat! ;-)

                                • #106645
                                  Robert
                                  Participant

                                    Am I understanding all that right, Robert?

                                    Pretty much.

                                    It’s funny you mentioned diamonds- I use that analogy every day explaining this to people.

                                    Higher SN numbers in general the better. Anything over 25 is considered pretty damn good.
                                    Higher resolution in general the better. 64 lp is considered normal for 3rd gen, with some units coming in as low as 57 lp and some as high as 72lp.

                                    Blemishes- these are essentially flaws in the tube manufacturing processes, visible as black spots ranging from so tiny it’s impossible to see with the naked eye, to larger blems. I USED to say that bigger blemed tubes went in the trash- until I looked at lot of pics on the net that people posted of some frickin ugly tubes they got other places. I mean U-G-L-Y they ain’t got no alibi type stuff. A few years ago at SHOT an NV manufacturer that starts with “S” was showing us a 14 and telling us about their “great wholesale price of $3,500.” per unit (Green tube, not WP) and the unit had some BIG blems in Zone 1. I was sincerely trying not to be an asshole and just said “you might want to put that unit away…”

                                    That being said, all NV tubes have some blems- often times you cannot even see them with the naked eye, but they are there. You’ll notice notations about Spot Spec charts which state things like “Zone 1- 0, Zone 2- 1, Zone 3- 2 etc. What this means is that in Zone 1 (the very center) nothing is allowed, Zone 2 one is allowed, Zone 3- two is allowed, etc. Sometimes you will also see sizes listed for maximum size of blems in these zones.

                                    From what I’ve been told the “true” 4G tubes cost as much or even more than Harris or L3 WP tubes, so if your seeing a supposed “4G” Photonis unit under about $3,600. it’s most likely an ECHO or Comm spec tube.

                                  • #106646
                                    veritas556
                                    Participant

                                      I have the Photonis Echo tube in WP – it’s better than any of the high spec green tubes I’ve looked through. For the $$ you can’t beat this tube. Just don’t cheap out on the mount! I went with the Norotos INVG and it is rock solid.

                                  Viewing 15 reply threads
                                  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.