Bad Guys Steal Man's Gun, Man Pulls Second Gun, Shoots Bad Guys

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    • #96708
      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
      Moderator

        Interesting

        We have difficulty convincing people to carry spare mags and a flashlight. :scratch:

        Bad Guys Steal Man’s Gun, Man Pulls Second Gun, Shoots Bad Guys

        Article:

        Three men went to the hospital with gunshot wounds Thursday night after an attempted robbery progressed into a shootout in a gas station parking lot.

        A 68-year-old man man taking full advantage of his CCW permit approached the window at the BP gas station located at Madison and Florissant in the Old North neighborhood with a gun tucked into the waistband of his pants at approximately 6:20 p.m. He was there to make a purchase, but before he could do so, a suspect stole his gun from him, KMOV reports.

        Before the suspect started firing shots, the victim produced a second gun, and an exchange of gunfire ensued. A second suspect exited a nearby car and was fired upon as well.

        One suspect was hit in the leg, the other in the stomach. According to police, the two drove from the scene to a hospital for treatment, where they arrived conscious and breathing. One of the suspects is 22 years old; the other is 26.

        The victim was shot once in the shoulder. He went to his house, just up the street from the gas station, and called police. He too was conscious and breathing when he arrived at a hospital.

        Police have released no further information at this time. The investigation is ongoing.

        I had been considering a small back-up pistol to supplement my M9 and a possible emergency loaner.

        After reading First Sergeant’s excellent Thread DCH Observations maybe I need to add a left-hand AIWB M9 to balance my right? ;-)

        Note: I am not addressing the obvious issue of how victim carried one of the pistols that lead to the shooting. Though I won’t rule out possible bait. Over the years I’ve known a few “older” folk who were looking for such situations for a variety of reasons.

      • #96709
        Mike H
        Participant

          Details are vague; One can assume that the perp was more interested in robbery and not additional charges(armed assault or attempted murder) so he didnt fire right away. I would like to know where the other gun was concealed. I have a keltec .380 that I sometimes carry in pocket but honestly if someone got my pistol out of the holster and was disposed to start shooting I’d be toast. I grew up/lived in area most of my life before moving way north. These losers actual shoot first on a lot of robberies/carjackings/etc. Situational awareness is very important….unfortunately I’m sure this older gent is stuck in his neighborhood because of economics and thus a prime candidate for crime victim. St.Louis city is a toliet.

        • #96710
          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
          Moderator

            See note I added while Mike H was posting.

          • #96711
            Mike H
            Participant

              Note taken Joe….thanks. Again situational awareness is number one….how many potential “hell in a handbasket” situations have you found yourself in? Might not even directly effect/involve you. Know your home state “self defense/sense of others laws and if outside of your state and carrying be informed.

            • #96712
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                The main point I take away is the fact he had a backup pistol.

                We really don’t have enough information to critique what led to him losing one pistol.

                To read the article you almost get the impression of Mexican carry, but that seems weird for someone that also carries a backup pistol. You would think backup means some level of training and experience. We just don’t know enough information.

                How did they make him and disarm him?

                Did bad guy fumble with pistol due to unfamiliarity? Problem with safety? Or simple shock that another pistol came out?

                Apparent poor marksmanship or sufficient distance with a small backup pistol to make it more difficult? Though he did engage two suspects without getting killed.

                So for now I’ll settle with carrying a backup seemed to have saved him. :yes:

              • #96713
                First Sergeant
                Moderator

                  New York re-load.

                  I have, at times, carried a BUG. I know others that do religiously.

                  It’s hard enough to get people to carry just one gun, much less a BUG.

                  As mentioned above, situational awareness is key. That will keep you out more crap than a gun will.

                  I had been considering a small back-up pistol to supplement my M9 and a possible emergency loaner.

                  After reading First Sergeant’s excellent Thread DCH Observations maybe I need to add a left-hand AIWB M9 to balance my right? ;-)

                  Note: I am not addressing the obvious issue of how victim carried one of the pistols that lead to the shooting. Though I won’t rule out possible bait. Over the years I’ve known a few “older” folk who were looking for such situations for a variety of reasons.

                  Before my wife and son got their CCW’s, I used to carry a BUG for the reason you mentioned. To be able to pass it off to one of them if something went sideways.

                  While carrying two full sized service pistols might be considered overkill to some, it would be a little bit harder to conceal both of them. ;-)

                  I am a huge fan of snub nose revolvers for BUG’s. Couple of reasons. If I have to pass it off, there’s not much I have to tell the person about how it works. Another reason is contact shots. With a small semi auto there is a chance of a malfunction if you are at bad breath distance. Next is when it’s cold. I can put a snub nose in my jacket pocket. Nobody thinks about you having your hands in your pocket when you are walking around. I can have my hand on the gun and ready to shoot through the pocket if necessary.

                  If you ever think about doing that, make sure the jacket you are wearing is not flammable. I will let you figure out why.

                  Bait. I have heard stories of people doing exactly that. I don’t like the odds.

                  FILO
                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                  Je ne regrette rien
                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                • #96714
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    Bait. I have heard stories of people doing exactly that. I don’t like the odds.

                    With one exception, the ones I knew about were terminal, hoping for an opportunity to change the end of their story to something they considered more appropriate.

                    Not having walked their path, I have chosen to be neutral in judgement.

                    One didn’t get their way, but did intervene in several situations that helped people.

                  • #96715
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      I am a huge fan of snub nose revolvers for BUG’s.

                      My first thought. I did look at several autos, but not really sold on the newer examples. I also have a real history of revolver use and was my original CCW a really long time ago. Of course most LEO’s were using revolvers in those days. B-)

                      Caveman stuff! ;-)

                      Different world and threat.

                    • #96716
                      wheelsee
                      Participant

                        Worked with an old deputy who use to carry a broken revolver in an open holster….I’ll let you figure out why…..as Joe said, different times……

                        Re: First Sergeant’s use of a snub-nose in a jacket…..IIRC, that is why shrouded hammers came into being, wouldn’t catch on any clothing….meaning if you’re going to do it, make durn sure it’ll work before hand, and stay away from synthetics as already discussed (old hoodie sweatshirts worked well 😎 at least for someone I know)

                      • #96717
                        Mike H
                        Participant

                          ’70s early ’80s we were issued 5 rounds for the 1911s and the females 5 rounds for their revolvers…of course everyone armed themselves with all sorts of “supplements”. It was a different world back then……I remember stricter use of force doctrine…part of the problem today is western culture is on its deathbed….the virtues and values that used to be instilled in young are gone. Now the abnormal have been empowered and are in power…what a mess. It’s like trying to keep a chess match going indefinitely…you can’t win…..defeat is inevitable. Get to training, train, and train some more.

                          Back to backup pistols…I do have a bugbite holster for the Keltec…slips over the calf..but have to wear boots otherwise over time it slips down the leg. I have to admit at times I only carry the smaller pistol…..mostly places your not supposed to….old use of force saying “rather be tried by twelve than carried by six”.

                        • #96718
                          A_A_Ron2guns
                          Participant

                            I carry a back up at work that shares magazine commonality with my primary. I’ll also say that if you see me in a jacket with my hands in my pockets I’ve got a handful of lead just as described.

                            I like wearing a backup on my support side so I can retain my primary.

                            The trick in the first place is to not wear your blaster in a fucking uncle mikes bullshit and when concealability drops retention has to rise.

                          • #96719
                            Mike H
                            Participant

                              Amen on the Uncle Mike’s reference. :good: I know plenty of guys will spend top dollar tricking out their bass boat, spend a fortune on high end handgun and then go “betty the coupon clipper” and buy a $11.95 holster…..same guys that refuse to head east to WV for training….a bookcase full of old army FMs is good enough for them. :wacko:

                            • #96720
                              Robert
                              Participant

                                Contact shots- a short push pull action helps to drill with this. Evidently there is some movie out where some tard nugget pushes into the front of an auto pistol so you can expect the average dunskie if they ever needed to, to try this. I’ve taught fighting on the ground over weapons to more than a few people like minded and not so much, and someone always brings that up- “I would just do this” and they invariably jam the front. It’s not a panacea.

                                I can’t tell you how many times rolling around with people on the ground with a (DRY) weapon where people lose track of the muzzle under stress. The touch and pull back of the contact shot could help with this. This has to be developed like any other skill, but the repetitions of doing it may avoid the crazy rush to just jam the muzzle into the opponents body and squeeze.

                                Remember one time these two guys had a helluva sparring match over a pistol (in training), started standing, ended up on the ground, they rolled around for a few minutes, one guy certainly putting a helluva lot more into it than the other. Finally you heard the click of the hammer and they both froze. The more into it guy was certain he had “won”, until they both (for the first time in a while) looked at

                                  where the muzzle was actually pointed

                                – it was pointed at his nutsack!

                                Truly close range- 0 yards- fighting with weapons is a whole different ballgame from the conventional “make space” gunfighting. Obviously “making space” is a very valuable technique and super important, but just like learning how to clear jams under pressure, learning to fight at no distance is part of your worst case training.

                                I would believe that 95% or better of everyday carry weapon holders have next to zero true retention or empty hand skills.

                                Also, I know it’s heresy among gun guys, but you CAN do a lot with a knife at closer distances. Like 1Sgt said, most won’t carry a back up gun, but probably everyone that carries a pistol also carries a knife. If the dude is close enough to take your pistol, he is close enough for knife work. Just some thoughts.

                              • #96721
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  Training for a variety methods gives options, awfully embarrassing to spend time and effort to prepare and get taking out through a obvious gap in training.

                                • #96722
                                  wheelsee
                                  Participant

                                    Training for a variety methods gives options, awfully embarrassing to spend time and effort to prepare and get taking out through a obvious gap in training.

                                    We were training with a handgun in close-in work. Got knocked on my a$$ because I focused too hard on getting the handgun into play.

                                    Lesson?? Focus on the threat, not which tool. Afterwards, we stopped focusing on the handgun and focused on dealing with the threat…….however was needed. Still haven’t forgotten that lesson…….

                                  • #96723
                                    zeerf
                                    Participant

                                      Lesson?? Focus on the threat, not which tool. Afterwards, we stopped focusing on the handgun and focused on dealing with the threat…….however was needed. Still haven’t forgotten that lesson…….

                                      Sounds like a great lesson learned from training! :good:

                                    • #96724
                                      Robert
                                      Participant

                                        Training for a variety methods gives options, awfully embarrassing to spend time and effort to prepare and get taking out through a obvious gap in training.

                                        We were training with a handgun in close-in work. Got knocked on my a$$ because I focused too hard on getting the handgun into play.

                                        Lesson?? Focus on the threat, not which tool. Afterwards, we stopped focusing on the handgun and focused on dealing with the threat…….however was needed. Still haven’t forgotten that lesson…….

                                        People try to go right to the gun, which is usually a problem.

                                      • #96725
                                        First Sergeant
                                        Moderator

                                          One of the things I was taught is to carry a knife that I can get to with my support hand. The one I carry is a fixed blade. I call it my “get off me” knife.

                                          FILO
                                          Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                          Je ne regrette rien
                                          In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                        • #96726
                                          Virgil Kane
                                          Participant

                                            @firstsergeant, what knife do you carry and how do you carry it? I suspect it’s not that Randall Airman.

                                            I have a SOG Pentagon that seems like the right size, but I can’t get it in a position that feels right.

                                          • #96727
                                            First Sergeant
                                            Moderator

                                              @firstsergeant, what knife do you carry and how do you carry it? I suspect it’s not that Randall Airman.

                                              I have a SOG Pentagon that seems like the right size, but I can’t get it in a position that feels right.

                                              Boker Pry Mini.

                                              I will get some pictures of the knife and how I carry it and post them tomorrow.

                                              FILO
                                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                              Je ne regrette rien
                                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                            • #96728
                                              First Sergeant
                                              Moderator

                                                I carry it centerline. It is set up for use with my left hand, but I can draw it with my right.

                                                FILO
                                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                Je ne regrette rien
                                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                              • #96729
                                                First Sergeant
                                                Moderator

                                                  Pics.

                                                  FILO
                                                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                  Je ne regrette rien
                                                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

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