ATF to ban M855 as armor piercing

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    • #66268
      trailman
      Participant
      • #66269
        Corvette
        Participant

          Apparently they will do anything to try to rein in freedom. What nonsense!

        • #66270
          Max
          Keymaster

            For a while I’ve used the capricious and usually cosmetic ATF “definitions” of proper and improper items and their usage as examples of our current bureaucracy driven condition.

            They’ve just given me even better examples of the intellectual poverty with which we are governed.

            How will history judge us for putting up with such utter bullshit?

            Keep your powder dry, and your M855 stacked deep,
            Atlas Shrug

          • #66271
            DuaneH
            Participant

              Saw that coming.
              .
              I am glad the announcement was made on a Friday as it did not allow the businesses to jack their prices up.
              .
              FWIW: Palmetto State Armory has free shipping this weekend and Privi Partizan m855 for 340/case.
              .
              It hasn’t happened yet, so the information may be bad or it could be that it won’t happened if there is enough protest from politicians. Also this is a PROPOSED item and the verbiage indicates that as long as they can prove it is for a sporting purpose, it should be GTG.
              .
              I am waiting til Monday afternoon to contact my politicians to see how this going to play out.
              .
              Still, I made a purchase.

            • #66272
              Corvette
              Participant

                I am not a huge fan of M855.
                But the problem is the principle of it, when gov’t deliberately acts in bad faith, just to oppress the peoples rights.

              • #66273
                DuaneH
                Participant

                  I’m not a fan of Lake City M855. Since the middle 2000’s it’s been about as accurate as AK ammo; however, Prvi Partizan green tip LAP is very accurate.
                  .
                  For general use, there is nothing wrong with M193 or 55 grain; however, LAP ammo has its place. Good for anti-materiel and body armor. A fair number of rifle plates on the market are not rated for LAP so it would stand to reason if criminals were using body armor there is a chance they wouldn’t have some that was resistant to M855.
                  .
                  From personal experience: I can tell you that M855 will penetrate steel plates when M80 will not.

                • #66274
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    I am not a huge fan of M855.
                    But the problem is the principle of it…

                    Ditto!

                    There will be some brisk sales, wouldn’t be surprised if it sells out this weekend.

                    Like the Chinese Steel Core 7.62x39mm, M855 will have increased trade value for many.

                    Years ago I sold a couple of 1100 round Chinese Steel Core cases for $750, not bad for the $70 a case I had in it.

                  • #66275
                    Mike H
                    Participant

                      Heading out for our anniversary weekend, be interesting to see if the rush gets going in the next couple of days. Of course a lot of shops/stores around here have over stocked their inventories a bit ago and been stuck w/ rifles/crates of ammo for months. Big discounts already.

                      Still got some of that “China Sport” ammo from the early ’90s. Hell the cardboard boxes themselves are probably worth something. B-)

                    • #66276
                      Max
                      Keymaster

                        The ATF has now banned m855 “green tip” ammunition.

                        http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

                        The key parts of the above link are the bottom of page 14, and the top of page 15. The justification to this is due to the fact that there are ar15’s in a pistol configuration. The steel core in the m855 projectile can be fired out of an ar15 pistol could be used to defeat the armor of LEO’s.

                        Other sources:

                        GOODBYE GREENTIP? ATF Seeks To Ban Common SS109/M855 5.56 Ammunition

                        http://controversialtimes.com/news/atf-is-attempting-to-ban-popular-ar-15-ammo/

                      • #66277
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          My mistake, I didn’t see the other thread. Please delete this one.

                        • #66278
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            My mistake, I didn’t see the other thread. Please delete this one.

                            No problem, I combined the threads.

                          • #66279
                            whitebear620
                            Participant

                              Was just at Walmart today to get some new keys made and was standing behind this couple buying around $900 worth of ammunition. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I joked with them and told them I was jealous of their purchase; the man proceeded to tell me that “Obama banned 5.56 through executive order on Friday, and since it was Friday it goes into effect Monday, so you better buy it now before it’s gone!”
                              The guy working the counter, my wife and I all just stood there and scratched our heads :scratch: . I knew that M855 was gonna go but somehow this guy translated it into ALL 5.56. The guy behind the counter was looking for any news of a ban while the keys were being cut and we were chatting, couldn’t find anything, but he said “Heck, maybe I should tell them 7mm is included and they’ll finally start buying that!”.
                              Just seemed like a funny encounter to me. Although the principle of this ban on M855 is just wrong.

                            • #66280
                              Corvette
                              Participant

                                Just an observation. It is interesting to see how a few drops of blue dye in the water reveals the underlying currents.

                                These are just the sorts of Executive Orders I’d put out if I wanted to trace the financial transaction metadata and links of networks. Who talks to who, who is spending on ammo and where etc. It all helps refine future targeting.

                              • #66281
                                Corvette
                                Participant

                                  And now everyone is gonna hoard it and drive the price up. It’s my go to ammo so this sucks.

                                • #66282
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster

                                    It wasn’t just this guy mistranslating it. There have been several articles on forums and blogs stating that as well.

                                  • #66283
                                    Max
                                    Keymaster

                                      While my go to ammo is not M855, I do have a bit.

                                      A quick check (Sunday 7:00am EST) at Wideners shows them out of M855. While that is no surprise, the coat tails do seem to be there as they are now out of the IMI M193 cases ($349/1200) and a few other things that were there a couple of days ago. I’m glad I ordered some of that a while back.

                                      So yes, Obummer the ammo salesman at work….

                                      Effing bastards one and all.

                                      Atlas Shrug

                                    • #66284
                                      Bill G.
                                      Participant

                                        I have never run the green tip through my rifle and Ive heard others talk about feed problems in a SA with this type of ammo. Cane anyone elaborate on this?

                                      • #66285
                                        Corvette
                                        Participant

                                          Bill G define SA for me? I’m a Luddite sometimes.

                                        • #66286
                                          Corvette
                                          Participant

                                            I was planning to stock up on some more ammo with my income tax refund but now SGAmmo for example seems sold out of what I wanted to buy (Wolf military Classic in 62gr and Wolf Gold brass 55gr for indoor range use)

                                          • #66287
                                            RRS
                                            Participant

                                              IMO of course gun control is not even thought of as actually reducing the supply of guns it is about partisian politics, of punishing the opposition and creating laws or situations where it will be impossible to comply. Sure the denser or less informed halfwits like scared of their own shadows suburban women or the denser varieties of libtard voters will believe such propaganda but most libtards who actually communicate know that gun control is to punish the commons enemy. If you go to a libtard bulletin board that has large amounts of traffic you will invariably find threads dealing with firearms where the libtards joyously talk about shooting us after disarming us “because bad.”

                                              The left establishment is by practical politics standards disqualifying itself out of the game, but it still has traction because conservatives and libertarian ideologues deal only with merciless abstractions. The left will go “guns bad, bad, bad only bad people like guns” and conservatives will prattle on with lengthy essays (like this post) that will glaze the eyes of the average person.

                                            • #66288
                                              Corvette
                                              Participant

                                                PS: SA-15 multi cal lower?
                                                Shouldnt have any effect.

                                                M855 works generally really well from a reliability standpoint in 5.56mm chambered AR15s due to being brass cased (=better extraction) and loaded a bit hot (=little chance of short cycling)

                                                The reasons I am not a fan of it is the accuracy isnt that great, it doesnt seem to do as much damage on soft tissue as 55gr and 62 gr non “penetrators” and its more expensive that other rounds that are easily its better in accuracy and effects.

                                              • #66289
                                                trailman
                                                Participant

                                                  wB

                                                  And that’s how it works, the ignorant leading the blind. Hell my local Walmart guy says the same hoarders are still lining up in the mornings to wipe out the .22

                                                • #66290
                                                  RRS
                                                  Participant

                                                    This outfit still has some according to their website

                                                    http://usarmorment.com/ammunition-c-1/nbsp556-nato-c-1_435/

                                                  • #66291
                                                    Corvette
                                                    Participant

                                                      M855 cycles fine in semi auto ARs. It’s very reliable just not as accurate as other 5.56 loadings.
                                                      The only thing it does better is light barrier penetration.
                                                      The BATFE is just using using a bullshit arguement to try and limit ammunition types available to the citizenry. It states in the proposal letter that law enforcement agency are exempt from the ban so really it pretty tranparent.
                                                      The BAFTE proposal letter can be challenged. 30 days from release is the timetable. So please contact your elected officials and raise hell. :mail:

                                                    • #66292
                                                      Corvette
                                                      Participant

                                                        If they are going after the M855, the Mk318 SOST can’t be far behind and thats one of my favorite rounds.

                                                        Expensive, but not prohibitively so.

                                                      • #66293
                                                        DuaneH
                                                        Participant

                                                          PMC Xtac 62 gr LAP was my go-to round. More accurate than LC. I could get 1.5 MOA out of it from my DMR. I even ran it in a DM class once. No longer. I will have to re-zero my rifles for 55 or 62 gr (if good 62 gr ever comes available) and save my PMC and M855 for that rainy decade. While 55 grain out of a 1-12 twist barrel (M16-A1) is wonderful on flesh, I still prefer the M855 .
                                                          .
                                                          .
                                                          While we are dissing the hoarders, they do serve a useful purpose:
                                                          1. They increase manufacturing capability which drives down cost (eventually).
                                                          2. They get the ammo in the hands of the civilians and not sitting on a shelf.
                                                          3. It send a clear message to you-know-who.
                                                          .
                                                          .
                                                          .
                                                          A hoarder is anyone who has more ammo than I do. That is some people’s definition.
                                                          .
                                                          .
                                                          AN interesting story:

                                                          I went to a guys’s house in 2008. In his garage he had Greek HXP .30-06 that he had bought when it was 25/can of 240 rds delivered from the CMP. He and his brother got a u haul, accessed their home equity lines of credit and backed it up to the loading dock at the CMP when it first came in the country in 2003? or so. It was 19.99/can. Needless to say in his garage he had a lot. I considered him a hoarder at the time, but watching the ammo prices go up and up since then, I think he was pretty smart. He is a shooter, not just a hoarder.

                                                        • #66294
                                                          Corvette
                                                          Participant

                                                            Update: just ordered a case of Mk318 SOST :yahoo:

                                                          • #66295
                                                            Bill G.
                                                            Participant

                                                              semi-automatic

                                                            • #66296
                                                              Corvette
                                                              Participant

                                                                semi-automatic

                                                                M855 feeds well into Ar15 type weapons as it is originally designed for them. Same as M193 (55gr) ammo.

                                                                Many carbines on the market now feature “M4 feedramps” which further ease chambering

                                                              • #66297
                                                                Bill G.
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Thanks for the clarification

                                                                • #66298
                                                                  Bill G.
                                                                  Participant
                                                                  • #66299
                                                                    Corvette
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      yes about the same price as good match ammo.
                                                                      Too steep for training or anything less than actual fight for your life.

                                                                      I already kinda regret I bought it :unsure:

                                                                    • #66300
                                                                      Bill G.
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Lol i bet, ive been sitting here trying to talk myself into a case with out much luck and procrastinating about my training peaks work out today!

                                                                      • #66301
                                                                        Mike H
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Just got back from shopping(picked up a can of M855)…prices haven’t changed yet and no one is rushing to the stores yet(all still passed out/shit faced in the fishing shacks :wacko: . Checked yesterday…our big local ammo is the M855 Federal in steel cans 420 rounds on strippers for $199.00 which has been a standard price for at least a year as I can remember(there was an overstock during last summer/fall that reduced the price at the local Fleet Supply/Wallie World to $179.00. Now Gander Mountain is selling the stuff 30 bucks higher. This stuff is produced locally in the Twin cities(Minneapolis/StPaul area) so we have a super large supply.

                                                                          The M855 feeds great in my RRA AR…several thousand rounds including approx. 700 last March at CRCD. Only jams I’ve ever had were due to using one of those brass catching thingies(Bad idea!).

                                                                          I’ll probably pick up another can back in my own AO next week but I’m not going nuts and buy up everything. We’ll see how this plays out.

                                                                        • #66302
                                                                          Corvette
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            If it comes to where you need it there will plenty of it on the ground.

                                                                            It’s the encroachment on freedom that pisses me off.

                                                                          • #66303
                                                                            Corvette
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              Just found this

                                                                              http://usarmorment.com/ammunition-c-1/nbsp556-nato-c-1_435/federal-556-62-gr-mk318-mod0-sost-500-rnd-case-p-1701.html

                                                                              pretty steep price

                                                                              I cancelled my order after i realized a “Case” was only 500 rd.

                                                                              It took multiple emails to get an acknowledgment for cancelation though. :unsure:

                                                                            • #66304
                                                                              Corvette
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Other 62 gr is selling out fast too.
                                                                                I think there are lots of guys out these that think 2 things: :unsure:

                                                                                – M855 is code word for very good ammo
                                                                                – All 62gr is M855 or at least has penetrator

                                                                                Maybe that is why completely unrelated 62 gr ammo is starting to sell out as well.

                                                                                I like Wolf Military Classic in 62 gr (non penetrator) and i always thought of it as “the poor mans Mk318 SOST” since it shares the 3 main advantages of SOST ammo: has over M855 (albeit to lesser degrees)

                                                                                – more accurate than M855, better than 2 MOA out of a 1 in 7 barrel
                                                                                – good penetration due to harder bullet case (bi metal) which doesnt make it really barrier blind ammo but certainly significantly less affected than M193 and similar 55gr style bullets.
                                                                                – significant improvment in effects on soft tissue over M855 (as can be had as hollow point)

                                                                                So I just ordered a case of the Wolf Military Classic, 62 gr in HP.
                                                                                The steel case is a very minor disadvantage in my experience. I never, not once, had a problem with this ammo in my LWRCi

                                                                                For those who just cant live with anything but brass case at 50 cents a round, this is another poor Mans SOST IMO:
                                                                                http://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm/1000-round-case-223-rem-69-grain-hpbt-match-prvi-partizan-ammo-pp57

                                                                                – HP = good effects in soft tissue
                                                                                – very accurate (better than Mk 318 SOST)
                                                                                – The large bullets greatly lessens deflections thru barriers

                                                                                (Having said all that, if the “real thing” wasnt 87 cents/rd I would get Mk318 SOST as my basic stash)

                                                                              • #66305
                                                                                Bill G.
                                                                                Participant
                                                                                • #66306
                                                                                  xsquidgator
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    A reprieve? Got this from the NSSF email blast just a few minutes ago.

                                                                                    ATF announced today that it will not move forward with its proposed framework to ban commonplace 5.56 M855 “green tip” ammunition at this time while it reviews the record number (more than 80,000) comments it has received so far. ATF will continue to accept comments through March 16. NSSF, as the trade association for the firearms industry, looks forward to engaging in a dialogue with ATF to address this issue that led to the now withdrawn proposal. Our industry members hope to meet consumer demand in bringing alternative ammunition products to the market and to continue to sell the popular M855 rifle target ammunition. NSSF continues to strongly urge ATF to grant 32 long-pending petitions to exempt alternative rifle ammunition designed and intended for the hunting market.

                                                                                  • #66307
                                                                                    nonconformist
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      Quoting Gen.N.B.Forrest,”Keep the skeer on!”

                                                                                    • #66308
                                                                                      Corvette
                                                                                      Participant
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