Are there AR uppers to avoid or to focus on?

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  • This topic has 46 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 3 months ago by Hessian. This post has been viewed 133 times
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    • #114589
      leam
      Participant

        I have a PSA (Palmetto State Arms) carbine style lower and would like to get a 223 upper. What I really want is reliable and good enough for classes. Maybe not getting laughed at, at least. :) I do not want an SBR or a 1,000 yard tack driver.

        Recommendations? Is the PSA lower something that just needs to be set aside, and get a “real gun”?

      • #114592
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          No shortage of opinions out there.😉

          Plenty already written here in forum.

          Best bang for the buck is a Colt AR IMHO.

          I would go with a LE6920OEM1 and choose your favorite furniture.

          Here’s a picture and a link for one example for $770.00!

          The Colt LE6920 features a 16.1″ chrome-lined barrel with a 1:7″ twist, an adjustable-post front sight. It has a matte black metal finish. This model has no furniture and is ready to customize with your drop-in handguard or rail system, buttstock, and rear buttstock, and rear sight optic.

          Specifications:

          Rate-of-Twist: 1:7″
          Muzzle: Muzzle Brake
          Barrel Description: Chrome-Lined

          Colt LE6920

          Look around you might find a better deal, but they go fast!

        • #114607
          Hessian
          Participant

            I’d take the PSA lower and use it for a ‘hobby’ build.

            As Joe has mentioned just get a colt LE6920 OEM 1 as it is the best bang for buck out there. I wish they still offered the OEM 2. You could get the colt and a decent optic for the price of the more expensive brands like DD and Noveske.

          • #114652
            TC
            Participant

              If not Colt, check out uppers by Daniel Defense, BCM, and Sionics. My two ARs are Aero Precision lowers with factory-complete BCM uppers. If I had to get a third, I’d either get a Colt Combat Unit Carbine or another Aero lower with a 16″ BFH ELW 13″ MCMR BCM upper. My BCMs have yet to malfunction through 5-6k rounds. Fwiw.

            • #114659
              First Sergeant
              Moderator

                I have a PSA (Palmetto State Arms) carbine style lower and would like to get a 223 upper. What I really want is reliable and good enough for classes. Maybe not getting laughed at, at least. 🙂 I do not want an SBR or a 1,000 yard tack driver.

                Recommendations? Is the PSA lower something that just needs to be set aside, and get a “real gun”?

                Store the PSA lower.

                Get a Colt 6920, go with the one Joe linked to.

                You want a rifle chambered in 5.56, not .223.

                Holy crap, why did the quote function give a smiley face that damned big?

                FILO
                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                Je ne regrette rien
                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

              • #114662
                veritas556
                Participant

                  Holy crap, why did the quote function give a smiley face that damned big?

                  Because it knew you were laughing at PSA ;)

                • #114862
                  leam
                  Participant

                    I’d take the PSA lower and use it for a ‘hobby’ build.

                    That might be the way to go, at least at first. At this point I don’t know what I don’t know, and need to practice basic handling and manipulation. And then figure out the things I need to learn. A klunky AR that I can learn on cheaply might be the tool to get me ready to spend more on the right stuff.

                  • #114899
                    JohnnyMac
                    Participant

                      If you already have a psa lower, just keep using it, I doubt you’ll have any problems. As for an upper, previous recommendations are good.

                      The main issues I’ve seen are gas block issues, bolt issues and primers stuck in the feed ramp area. 1st SGT has seen it all though

                    • #114943
                      First Sergeant
                      Moderator

                        I’d take the PSA lower and use it for a ‘hobby’ build.

                        That might be the way to go, at least at first. At this point I don’t know what I don’t know, and need to practice basic handling and manipulation. And then figure out the things I need to learn. A klunky AR that I can learn on cheaply might be the tool to get me ready to spend more on the right stuff.

                        Spend the money on a Colt now. That is the rifle you need to learn on, not something subpar that could cause you issues.

                        While the lower may be fine, why take the risk.

                        With prices still low, now is the time to get a good rifle at a good price. The one Joe linked to is the best way to go.

                        FILO
                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                        Je ne regrette rien
                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                      • #115947
                        JMF
                        Participant

                          I saw this pop up at Brownells today for $550, if you use promo code M8Y takes $20 off with free shipping. No BCG or charging handle. The Colt OEM’s are a better over all deal (if you can find one).

                          COLT – AR-15 LE6960-CCU UPPER RECEIVER

                          • #116113
                            leam
                            Participant

                              I saw this pop up at Brownells today for $550, if you use promo code M8Y takes $20 off with free shipping. No BCG or charging handle. The Colt OEM’s are a better over all deal (if you can find one).

                              COLT – AR-15 LE6960-CCU UPPER RECEIVER

                              How do you feel about the negative reviews?

                          • #116098
                            Anonymous
                            Inactive

                              Just checked the Colt website because I’m starting to wonder if I should buy another AR before the panic buying kicks in again and they have no MD-compliant rifles, go figure. :wacko:

                            • #116112
                              leam
                              Participant

                                Setting aside laughter at PSA, I’m trying to figure out why people who work on ARs, and compete with them, say Colt is over priced. The flip side seems to be that people who use ARs seem to like Colt. Is there a measurable reason, or just general preference?

                                One thing that comes to mind, but I don’t know enough to say either way, is how German equipment fared during the WWII Russian campaign. Highly engineered panzers and planes didn’t fare well with the harsh Russian weather, while the wider tolerances of the Russian gear provided less accurate but always functioning hardware.

                              • #116127
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  …say Colt is over priced

                                  These people that say Colt is overpriced are possibly living in the past or are focused on a far different priority than actual fighting with one.

                                  What are these “overpriced” people recommending?

                                  Answer that question and I can probably tell you where their mindset is.

                                  Note we have been recommending what is essentially the basic model AR that is suitable for real use.

                                  Your WWII analogy is essentially the age old argument of the M16 vs AK47 which is usually based on outdated bias from the Vietnam era. Today’s military M4 and equivalent is completely combat proven.

                                  There are many civilian AR’s that are not suitable for combat. This is because of a long list of issues previously addressed in other earlier Threads.

                                  Just because an AR resembles a M4 doesn’t mean it’s the semiautomatic equivalent of a M4.

                                • #116129
                                  leam
                                  Participant

                                    Well, none of them are recommending PSA. :)

                                    Usually the people I go to for intel are competition shooters. Some are PRS gas gun types, others are long range instructors and, oddly enough, former Marines. That’s where the idea of WWII engineering came from, by the way. Not M16 vs AK47, but “competition” vs “takes a licking and keeps on ticking”. For me, an AR build that trades in 1-2 MOA for “harsh environment reliability” is better. It’s less about general design and more about tolerances, resistance to powder residue fouling, etc.

                                    The “basic model” is what I’m shooting for, with the caveat that there are certain things it needs. I didn’t even know there was an optic that didn’t need batteries, though I do plan on both optic and iron sights. Seeing recommendations on a charging handle helps, and I need to find the same for BCG. I have one, but can’t say it’s a good one.

                                    The word I’ve been given is to pick your parts based on task, and assemble, or have someone assemble, the barrel/upper/gas tube. Down the road, after some break in and practice, find ways to smooth things out.

                                  • #116138
                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                    Moderator

                                      The word I’ve been given is to pick your parts based on task, and assemble, or have someone assemble, the barrel/upper/gas tube.

                                      This is the competition mindset. The more different manufacturers; without significant quality control available to large organizations, the greater the chance of incompatibility problems.

                                      Down the road, after some break in and practice, find ways to smooth things out.

                                      I want to be able to put a minimum of 500 rounds through a firearm to prove function and be able to depend on it now!

                                      Not tinker with it for months until it works.

                                      Most never know their firearm is unsuitable, because their 300 rounds plinking at the range is not a harsh test. This is why so many show up at MVT thinking they are good only to have their weapon have significant malfunctions.

                                      A trip to MVT is a significant investment in time and resources. Struggling with a poor choice will take away from your learning experience.

                                      If a hostile event occurs before you identify a poor choice, you may not live to regret it.

                                    • #116142
                                      leam
                                      Participant

                                        A friend worked at a major gun manufacturer and learned the guns were built for the “average” shooter; less than 500 rounds for the life of the gun. “Name brand” isn’t what it used to be, assuming it ever was.

                                        I agree with you;

                                        • do your research, here and abroad
                                        • build basic and reliable
                                        • shoot the heck out of it
                                        • resolve issues
                                        • build basic skills
                                        • show up to class with confidence

                                        Oddly enough I find a lot of quality control via word of mouth. Competition shooters don’t mind talking about the good and the bad. You just have to know who sponsors them sometimes. :)

                                      • #116148
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          I agree with you;

                                          do your research, here and abroad
                                          build basic and reliable
                                          shoot the heck out of it
                                          resolve issues
                                          build basic skills
                                          show up to class with confidence

                                          Why bother with the “build basic and reliable?”

                                          Why build?

                                          Are you looking for a hobby?

                                          Look I am not telling you what to choose, but most hobby people do not build a quality rifle.

                                          Good luck!

                                        • #116159
                                          leam
                                          Participant

                                            Why bother with the “build basic and reliable?”

                                            Why build?

                                            Are you looking for a hobby?

                                            Look I am not telling you what to choose, but most hobby people do not build a quality rifle.

                                            Good luck!

                                            Mostly because I like to tinker. Fortunately, I’ve learned that I know very little, and can give the tricky parts to someone who actually knows what they are doing. I used to shoot USPSA with an Argentine Sistema. Found her on consignment in a gun shop; covered in rust and barely functional. By serial number she was coming out of the factory when my mom was pregnant with me. We never won but we had fun together. She helped me learn a lot about guns and about myself.

                                            • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by leam.
                                          • #116170
                                            farmer
                                            Participant

                                              leam, PLEASE look at the BIG picture. The big picture is if a hostile event kicks off now, or before you are done “tinkering”, you DON’T have a reliable, proven weapon system you can depend on.

                                              Save the tinkering until AFTER you have a good rifle ( like the Colt referenced above ) and have been to at least HEAT 1 with 1st Sergeant. And remember to use Slip 2000 for lubrication.

                                              A common saying here is “Buy once, cry once”

                                              Ron

                                            • #116185
                                              TC
                                              Participant

                                                Mostly because I like to tinker. Fortunately, I’ve learned that I know very little, and can give the tricky parts to someone who actually knows what they are doing.

                                                Adding to what farmer said, you definitely risk extra failure points with that approach. You can build basic, but can you build reliable? If you want both in a build, you have to really know what you’re doing and do it yourself.

                                                You’d have to watch out for parts being out of spec (need the right gauges to check), be mindful of tolerance stacking, align your gas block correctly, drill and pin the gas block if you want it to be rock solid (needs a special jig), or if you use set screws then the barrel needs to be dimpled in the exact correct spot and use the correct type of red loctite on the screws. You’d need correct torque range on the barrel nut (and make sure to have the torque wrench at right angle not radial), make sure the gas tube is very straight on or run into excessive wear from the gas key, and so on. Not to mention having a well balanced gas port diameter, gas system length, buffer spring and buffer weight interaction.

                                                Are these the kinds of things you’re prepared to work through and buy the tools for? On a hobby gun, great. On a fighting gun, there’s a lot that can go wrong if you’re learning by trial and error, which by definition assumes life-threatening class-stopping unreliability.

                                                And if you give it to someone else who “knows what they’re doing” — how can you be sure they know what they’re doing? With a company like Colt or BCM, there’s an industry reputation and hiring process and quality control department in place. With “some guy” there’s only his word and your own potentially biased assessment of his competence.

                                                That means it’s going to take a lot more time and money in testing to work out the bugs. Like $300-$600 extra in ammo beyond what’s normally needed, so add that to the cost of building from scratch. With that money you could have gotten a higher end AR from a reputable company that only needs 500 rounds in testing before you can call it good.

                                                That’s why the Colt 6920 is the cheapest ‘one and done’ option. Look, I’m not at averse to building, as I have the tools and knowledge to put together a proper lower, which is pretty straightforward. But I don’t have the gauges, torque wrench, or drill-press make a proper upper, so I bought both of mine complete. You can’t just buy the best parts from everywhere and expect to have the best AR, as the system is more than the sum of its parts. There’s a holistic balancing involved, and a complete rifle from a good company takes that into account. So that’s a long way of backing up what farmer said.

                                              • #116443
                                                leam
                                                Participant

                                                  leam, PLEASE look at the BIG picture. The big picture is if a hostile event kicks off now, or before you are done “tinkering”, you DON’T have a reliable, proven weapon system you can depend on.

                                                  Save the tinkering until AFTER you have a good rifle ( like the Colt referenced above ) and have been to at least HEAT 1 with 1st Sergeant. And remember to use Slip 2000 for lubrication.

                                                  A common saying here is “Buy once, cry once”

                                                  Ron

                                                  Hey Ron!

                                                  I had a longer reply, the forum seems to have eaten it. Oh well. The short form is that while I agree with you on the “buy once, cry once” theory, Colt’s reputation hasn’t inspired a great lot of confidence. BCM or FN, sure. But there’s also the budget issue. Is it better to buy less than the best, if the budget for the best puts it a year or two off? What if things go south before I can afford the best? If the best has a 5% failure rate, for example (not saying they do, just using rough guesses), and the “not the best” has a 15% failure rate, that says to wait. But if there’s a 50% chance of the coming US election being a triggering event, and the 5% solution isn’t available before then, what’s the better option? Lower grade gear and trigger time, or hope things don’t go bad?

                                                • #116448
                                                  farmer
                                                  Participant

                                                    Lean, from reading your posts, maybe your better solution would be to get a slightly lower quality FACTORY built complete rifle versus your original home built option.

                                                    You could also be encouraged to go to HEAT 1 & rent a rifle from Max. That way you would at least have some training under your belt also, as well as a lot of wisdom from 1st Sergeant.

                                                  • #116440
                                                    leam
                                                    Participant

                                                      Soldiers in the field and officers on patrol are supported by armorers and a logistics system. In theory every new weapon has been checked before being issued for duty. The person who pays at the gun shop has a totally different logistical situation and finding an armorer to field fix something could be tough when things aren’t nice any more. That’s why being able to do a lot of the build is useful.

                                                      Article on Colt, 2017.

                                                      BREAKING: Colt Lays Off Custom Shop Director, Other Employees, Company Rumored Gutted

                                                      Of 12 reviews, 1/3 are low due to poor quality issues that could be visually detected.
                                                      https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/ar-15-le6960-ccu-upper-receiver-5-56-m-lok-prod120469.aspx?avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=Salezz1zzClearance&avs%7cPrice_1=300xzzx00%2bTO%2b799xzzx99

                                                      One person’s experience.
                                                      https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/poor-colt-quality.135798/

                                                      2016 article.
                                                      https://www.bluesheepdog.com/2016/04/11/is-this-the-end-of-colt/

                                                      Buying quality, from a reputable vendor, is important. I don’t see Colt fitting into that category.

                                                    • #116454
                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                      Moderator

                                                        I had a longer reply, the forum seems to have eaten it. Oh well.

                                                        That’s when you send me a PM and I fix it! ;-)

                                                        Which I have.

                                                        Colt’s reputation hasn’t inspired a great lot of confidence.

                                                        There’s a lot of BS out there.

                                                        Some are still mad at Colt over some decisions made around the early 90’s. These were made several CEO’s ago.

                                                        Then there is the Colt Expanse AR-15, which without digging too deep was a Colt in name only.

                                                        Ultimately you asked for the opinion of MVT members and our SME’s.

                                                        How you weigh our advice is your choice.

                                                        I don’t see Colt fitting into that category.

                                                        My advice still stands.

                                                        There are plenty of other Threads addressing this issue. Read them.

                                                        Ultimately it’s your choice.

                                                      • #116457
                                                        wheelsee
                                                        Participant

                                                          The basic question was asked and answered. By continuing to bring it up tends to mean learning curves are steep.

                                                          Bottom line – Colt 6920 was advised by at least 2 solid members who I’ve learned to trust. They are not salespeople, they’re not going to benefit whether you buy or not.

                                                          Recognize that currently YDKWYDK – you don’t know what you don’t know. At the end of the day, buy what you want (we all do anyway).

                                                          IIRC, Voltaire is credited with saying “ a smart man learns from his mistakes; a wise man learns from others”

                                                        • #116493
                                                          Robert Henry
                                                          Participant

                                                            A friend worked at a major gun manufacturer and learned the guns were built for the “average” shooter; less than 500 rounds for the life of the gun.

                                                            Damn…. I’m an AK guy and still shoot more than 500 rounds every couple months THROUGH AN AR!

                                                            I think this ties into the problems of not realizing their rifles suck when they show up to class- people aren’t really shooting them much. 50 rounds at the bench of the public shooting range once or twice a year is probably average for most people who think they are shooters and have skill at arms with their rifle.

                                                            It takes a considerably larger amount of practice than that folks.

                                                            So I get the “research” and misc. overthinking that tends to go into this but here is a simple formula-

                                                            1. Get a reliable rifle, try not to skimp.
                                                            2. Show up to class- Heat 1 or Heat .5 and begin to put the rifle through it’s paces.
                                                            Then either
                                                            A. If the rifle craps the bed on you- GET RID OF IT. No excuses, no “well it was a Tuesday in June when the moon was in line with Pluto and everyone knows not to shoot a DPMS under those conditions..” blah blah blah. If it doesn’t work and you do not feel 99% on staking YOUR LIFE on it, get rid of it.
                                                            B. If you feel the rifle is GTG, then buy a couple cases of ammo. Make it a point to practice at least once a month a few hours of live fire.

                                                            3. Show up for more training.

                                                            Rinse and repeat.

                                                            Training is NEVER a “one and done” or “I checked that box off one time 10 years ago” BS idea. Training should be REGULAR and it should be a commitment.

                                                            No matter if it’s the gun range or on the mats, the best players I run into are the ones that are the most consistent and regular with training.

                                                            Don’t worry about showing up to training with the “wrong gear”-you’ll likely overthink it six ways to Sunday and that will always be the reason why you don’t show up. Just show up. Good things will happen and crap will work itself out.

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                                                            www.jrhenterprises.com

                                                            Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                                            Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                                          • #116521
                                                            veritas556
                                                            Participant

                                                              @Robert – Let’s not exaggerate here – I’m pretty sure that DPMS only has problems when Mercury is in retrograde. :wacko:

                                                              • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by veritas556.
                                                            • #116541
                                                              Robert Henry
                                                              Participant

                                                                @Robert – Let’s not exaggerate here – I’m pretty sure that DPMS only has problems when Mercury is in retrograde. :wacko:

                                                                True, true. Hard for me as an AK guy to remember all the rulz.

                                                                www.jrhenterprises.com

                                                                Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                                                Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                                              • #116630
                                                                Hessian
                                                                Participant

                                                                  A friend worked at a major gun manufacturer and learned the guns were built for the “average” shooter; less than 500 rounds for the life of the gun.

                                                                  Damn…. I’m an AK guy and still shoot more than 500 rounds every couple months THROUGH AN AR!

                                                                  I think this ties into the problems of not realizing their rifles suck when they show up to class- people aren’t really shooting them much. 50 rounds at the bench of the public shooting range once or twice a year is probably average for most people who think they are shooters and have skill at arms with their rifle.

                                                                  It takes a considerably larger amount of practice than that folks.

                                                                  So I get the “research” and misc. overthinking that tends to go into this but here is a simple formula-

                                                                  1. Get a reliable rifle, try not to skimp.
                                                                  2. Show up to class- Heat 1 or Heat .5 and begin to put the rifle through it’s paces.
                                                                  Then either
                                                                  A. If the rifle craps the bed on you- GET RID OF IT. No excuses, no “well it was a Tuesday in June when the moon was in line with Pluto and everyone knows not to shoot a DPMS under those conditions..” blah blah blah. If it doesn’t work and you do not feel 99% on staking YOUR LIFE on it, get rid of it.
                                                                  B. If you feel the rifle is GTG, then buy a couple cases of ammo. Make it a point to practice at least once a month a few hours of live fire.

                                                                  3. Show up for more training.

                                                                  Rinse and repeat.

                                                                  Training is NEVER a “one and done” or “I checked that box off one time 10 years ago” BS idea. Training should be REGULAR and it should be a commitment.

                                                                  No matter if it’s the gun range or on the mats, the best players I run into are the ones that are the most consistent and regular with training.

                                                                  Don’t worry about showing up to training with the “wrong gear”-you’ll likely overthink it six ways to Sunday and that will always be the reason why you don’t show up. Just show up. Good things will happen and crap will work itself out.

                                                                  While I don’t shoot 500 rounds every month Robert’s advice here is very sound. If you can’t shoot your AR every month, at least get dry fire, reloads and practice malfunctions regularly.

                                                                  I have seen my fair share of AR’s fail, for all sorts of reasons. Frankenstein guns seem to be the worse, and it sucks when your in a class and the instructors are spending time figuring out a broken AR or AK. Worse yet, is when its your gun holding up the class.

                                                                  Cheapest route for gear to run a HEAT .5 or HEAT 1
                                                                  Get a reliable gun, 15-20 magpul gen 3 or lancer mags (number them), 2 point sling, slip 2000 gun lube, SOR chest rig (or equivalent), knee pads, hiking boots. No need for expensive gear beyond that.

                                                                • #116632
                                                                  RobRoy
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    Every American gun owner a firearms expert, it’s what we are.

                                                                  • #116710
                                                                    First Sergeant
                                                                    Moderator

                                                                      You asked the question and didn’t like the advice given so you went elsewhere to validate your decision.

                                                                      Obviously I have no idea what I am talking about nor do I know the right rifle to recommend to work out of the box with no modifications. Obviously the only people who know are the long range shooters and the fucking hobby builders. From now on I will defer to the PSA fan boys and the ARF crowd, cause they are the knowledge god’s when it comes to a fighting rifle.

                                                                      Which is funny because this topic came up at class this weekend. The only two brands that I have never seen fail at a class are Colt and Knights.

                                                                      FILO
                                                                      Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                      Je ne regrette rien
                                                                      In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                    • #116730
                                                                      Thomas
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Thank you, First Sergeant!

                                                                      • #116878
                                                                        arealcorker
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          I always like these threads. I get the feeling its like a few of my associates that ask me questions on certain topics but all ready have their mind made up on a certain topic and want me to confirm it for them but when I and tell them like it is they waste my time and do what they started out to do anyway…Wisdom is learning from other peoples experiences and mistakes and not making them yourself.

                                                                          What most people do not understand about gun makers is that most outsource their parts and assemble them with their name on them. Only a few actually make all or most of their parts for quality control purposes. Even more rare is for a company to apply, receive and pay for an ISO rating. There are only a few companies that build AR’s that are ISO rated. Colt is one of them. What does that mean. It means they have a proven track record of being able to assemble their products with such stringent manufacturing process that they can take a rack of completed AR’s disassemble them mix up the parts and put them back together with all of them passing their minimum specs requirements. If they have a problem with one of the guns they all fail. They go back to the problem and find out why.
                                                                          The cheaper AR’s may look the same and most will function for a while. What’s the difference? The materials! 4140cmv barrels instead of 4150cmv or no chrome lining(which is more expensive), some advertise nitride which is hard but I have found so called nitrided barrels from no name manufactures were not! they were still soft on the outside. cast upper and lower with a cheaper aluminum or not Billet, dated 158 carpenter steel bolts un-proofed pressure tested vs. 9310 steel that has been MPI, pressure tested, and shot peened to relieve stress. The cheaper 158 steel bolts start failing around 5000 rnds. Cheaper extractors and springs which can fail around 1000 or less rounds. Bolt gas screws not properly staked or skimped with 5 grade bolts vs. 8grade. Cheap china buffer springs that start failing after 2-3000 rounds. What exacerbates or quickens all these cheap parts is gas ports being oversized to be able to shoot a variety of ammo, most of which is low pressure, to keep guns running and not returned back to the manufacture. Out of spec receivers, loose trigger pins that walk out. So toss the dice and see what happens with the budget guns or go to the heavy hitters.

                                                                          While Colt has had its financial problems and lost much of its bigger government contracts they seem to have gotten most of it sorted out and still make a quality weapon. They poo, pooed on the civilian market because of the fat contracts they never R&D to keep up with the industry and are now caught trying to get back into the game which has soured many people. Bravo Company Makes an excellent, reliable gun. All of their parts are made in house by veterans who know how important it is to have a reliable gun. While not very popular. Windom Weaponry makes an AR as good or better than Colt. Bushmaster was the Shits niz when they came out and made great guns and even took much of Colts contracts when they could not keep up with demands. When Bushmaster sold out they went to shit. Most of the employees that worked at Bushmaster left and started Windom. Daniel Defense makes a great gun and are known for their great barrels. But be aware! some Bravo company guns and Daniel defense guns do not stake and pin their gas blocks. LMT I believe is not ISO rated but are GSA rated for the federal gov. according to their website. They make a good gun. J-P enterprises while labeled as a competition gun are great and reliable defense guns. FN makes great guns and are also known for their hammer forged barrels. While HK makes good guns and have current military contracts, I am not a fan of the piston upper, and the 416 is about 10 years behind the times. Geissele is now making a complete rifle and its too new to tell. I love many of their products like triggers and rails but not their buffer system. Its proprietary. Larue is also known for great guns but many have been bit by horrible customer service. Rock River makes good guns, beside stabbing gunowners in the back, but their barrels are not chrome lined or nitrided and their chambers are cut tighter which is a no go for a defense gun. I know there are too many to cover but this is the bulk. Most of these guns are in the $1000++range. Doesn’t include sling, mounts, optic, optic mount, mags, back up sites if it did not come with them. You can get by for a time with a budget rifle but it won’t hold up! How much is your life worth?

                                                                        • #117022
                                                                          First Sergeant
                                                                          Moderator

                                                                            While not very popular. Windom Weaponry makes an AR as good or better than Colt. Bushmaster was the Shits niz when they came out and made great guns and even took much of Colts contracts when they could not keep up with demands. When Bushmaster sold out they went to shit. Most of the employees that worked at Bushmaster left and started Windom. Daniel Defense makes a great gun and are known for their great barrels. But be aware! some Bravo company guns and Daniel defense guns do not stake and pin their gas blocks. LMT I believe is not ISO rated but are GSA rated for the federal gov. according to their website. They make a good gun. J-P enterprises while labeled as a competition gun are great and reliable defense guns. FN makes great guns and are also known for their hammer forged barrels. While HK makes good guns and have current military contracts, I am not a fan of the piston upper, and the 416 is about 10 years behind the times. Geissele is now making a complete rifle and its too new to tell. I love many of their products like triggers and rails but not their buffer system. Its proprietary. Larue is also known for great guns but many have been bit by horrible customer service. Rock River makes good guns, beside stabbing gunowners in the back, but their barrels are not chrome lined or nitrided and their chambers are cut tighter which is a no go for a defense gun. I know there are too many to cover but this is the bulk. Most of these guns are in the $1000++range. Doesn’t include sling, mounts, optic, optic mount, mags, back up sites if it did not come with them. You can get by for a time with a budget rifle but it won’t hold up! How much is your life worth?

                                                                            You got the stuff about Colt right.

                                                                            The stuff about Bushmaster is wrong. They never were nor have they ever been a good rifle. They never took any contracts away from Colt. They did get some foreign contracts. That’s where the rumor about them taking contracts away from Colt came from.

                                                                            Windham is no better.

                                                                            To save some time, everyone following this thread needs to go read this post:

                                                                            AR Manufacturers Parts 1, 1.5 and 2

                                                                            FILO
                                                                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                            Je ne regrette rien
                                                                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                          • #117063
                                                                            RobRoy
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              LMT seems to pass NATO muster if their contract with Estonia is any indication. FTR I’m a LMT homer since it is my high dollar go to war carbine. Down the rabbit hole a little the press releases for the Estonian contract imply that their government is buying rifles that also will be issued to its volunteer defence force down the line from its regular army and police. Lewis Machine Tool if anyone wants to look it up.

                                                                            • #117065
                                                                              leam
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                First Sergeant, is there another thread where you expand on this?

                                                                                “The M-14 would be the downfall of Springfield Armory.”

                                                                                Thanks! I’m still reading the other thread. I like the idea of the M-14 but don’t know much about the reality. Of course, I really like the FAL. :)

                                                                              • #117141
                                                                                First Sergeant
                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                  First Sergeant, is there another thread where you expand on this?

                                                                                  “The M-14 would be the downfall of Springfield Armory.”

                                                                                  Thanks! I’m still reading the other thread. I like the idea of the M-14 but don’t know much about the reality. Of course, I really like the FAL. :)

                                                                                  It is in the AR Manufacturers post.

                                                                                  The idea of the M-14 was fucking stupid to begin with.

                                                                                  The FAL has had it’s day and it is never coming back, but that explains some things.

                                                                                  FILO
                                                                                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                  Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                • #117142
                                                                                  First Sergeant
                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                    LMT seems to pass NATO muster if their contract with Estonia is any indication. FTR I’m a LMT homer since it is my high dollar go to war carbine. Down the rabbit hole a little the press releases for the Estonian contract imply that their government is buying rifles that also will be issued to its volunteer defence force down the line from its regular army and police. Lewis Machine Tool if anyone wants to look it up.

                                                                                    LMT makes good rifles. They are one of the manufacturers that I recommend.

                                                                                    FILO
                                                                                    Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                    Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                    In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                  • #117212
                                                                                    RobRoy
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      The guys who run InRange sum it up well about the old curio rifles, “Obsolescent, but not obsolete.” This spans the M-1 Garand to the AK variants with all the Euro rifles in between.

                                                                                    • #117274
                                                                                      First Sergeant
                                                                                      Moderator

                                                                                        The guys who run InRange sum it up well about the old curio rifles, “Obsolescent, but not obsolete.” This spans the M-1 Garand to the AK variants with all the Euro rifles in between.

                                                                                        Yeah, the Soviets even wised up when they developed the AK-74 in 5.45.

                                                                                        FILO
                                                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                                      • #117305
                                                                                        Robert Henry
                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                          I can definitely shoot a 5.45 AK faster keeping everything tight than I can with the X39 versions I have. I pulled a shot timer out after years of never touching it and at 25 yards the ready up drill starting from patrol ready with three rounds on target averaged 1.25 to 1.6’ish with the AR and AK74 being at the lower end and X39 AK being near the higher end.

                                                                                          I was pushing the pace a little bit to how fast while staying on target when I noticed the groups were much tighter with the lighter rounds- 5.56 and 5.45. This is hardly a revelation but was fun to try.

                                                                                          Max’s posts about the kid on IG he was arguing with that loves shot timers made me dig out the shot timer a couple of trips back to the range.

                                                                                          Attachments:
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                                                                                          www.jrhenterprises.com

                                                                                          Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                                                                          Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                                                                        • #117560
                                                                                          Stig
                                                                                          Participant

                                                                                            I found a Colt 6920 OEM2 and it is on the way. I need help with the furniture to get reliable parts without over-paying for a high priced brand name. I’m leaning to the MagPul MOE-SL stock. I have no idea on a strong M-Lok handguard model so I need recommendations.

                                                                                            Does anyone have a good way to mount the pressure switch for the OTAL on the top rail?

                                                                                            Thanks for any advice. I really appreciate the Heat Observations from 1st SGT. Max’s videos have been very helpful.

                                                                                            I’m a Mindset and Tactics guy, but sometimes I just need straight up recommendations on gear.

                                                                                            Thanks

                                                                                          • #117609
                                                                                            Robert Henry
                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                              How much on the 6920 and where?

                                                                                              www.jrhenterprises.com

                                                                                              Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                                                                              Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                                                                            • #117639
                                                                                              Stig
                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                Arms Unlimited.com

                                                                                                https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-OEM-AR15-M4-556mm-Rifle-No-Furniture-p/le6920-oem2.htm

                                                                                                Sale – $725 probably for Labor Day. I paid $735. Shipped from them 2 days after I ordered. Out of Las Vegas NV. I don’t know anything more on the company. Should get the rifle mid-week. Just a little nervous since no one else has OEM’s.

                                                                                              • #117682
                                                                                                First Sergeant
                                                                                                Moderator

                                                                                                  Arms Unlimited.com

                                                                                                  https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-OEM-AR15-M4-556mm-Rifle-No-Furniture-p/le6920-oem2.htm

                                                                                                  Sale – $725 probably for Labor Day. I paid $735. Shipped from them 2 days after I ordered. Out of Las Vegas NV. I don’t know anything more on the company. Should get the rifle mid-week. Just a little nervous since no one else has OEM’s.

                                                                                                  That’s a damn good price. I know some guys who have ordered from there with no issue.

                                                                                                  The OEM2 is going to come with no delta ring so you are going to have to find a free float rail. A standard hand guard will not work, which is a good thing.

                                                                                                  FILO
                                                                                                  Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                                                  Je ne regrette rien
                                                                                                  In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

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