Ammo for Classes: Recommendations / Restrictions

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    • #101536
      Max
      Keymaster

        This is what it currently says on the Combat Team Tactics page on the website, and also in the Class Information Packets that are sent out once you book:

        • NO penetrator, steel core, armor piercing, bi-metal, M855 (Green Tip), tracer or similar. Such ammo will cause damage to the ranges and electronic target systems. FMJ / hollow point / soft point ammunition is ok. Ammo may be magnet tested.*

        In addition, we are adding M193 / XM193 type ammo to the list. Before you react, these new rules will actually save you money!

        It is known by anyone who makes steel targets or armor that XM193 ammunition is very hot and very hard on steel. Even though it is 55 grain ball ammo. In fact, at close range it is more damaging than M855 penetrator. This is primarily due to high velocity. We are using steel inside what are normal recommended ranges for keeping the steel from being damaged, but we are using CITTAC ‘ground & pound’ targets which sit on the ground and lean forward at a 30 degree angle (behind the stick-in Ivans). We have had zero problems using these targets up to 20 yards out, before shifting fire to manikins for the assault onto the objective. XM193 ammo causes pitting, other slower 5.56 / .223 ammo does not.

        We use steel at class for two purposes:

        1. To protect the electronic pop-up targets with steel shields, which do not have target pits on mobile classes.
        2. Behind stick-in Ivan targets, to give feedback on hits.

        Therefore:

        For 5.56 / .223 rifles we recommend a cheap training ammo such as PMC Bronze .223 55 grain. This costs around $315 for a 1000 round case. Cheap bulk ammo that is good enough for any of the tactical training that we do at the VTC or mobile classes. It has a velocity of around 290o fps out of a 16″ barrel, against about 3200 fps for XM193 – and it is velocities above 3000 fps that really pit the steel.

        *Note: for square range classes, it does not matter what ammo you use, with the exception of tracer. Green Tip / M855 is fine, for example, on the flat range. Just don’t mix it up for the tactical ranges. These rules do apply to the tactical ranges, for both the VTC and for mobile classes – these ammo types have a greater chance of either damaging steel or eating up the target pits, and thus damaging the expensive electronic target systems.


        On a related note, it is no secret that MVT Classes, in particular the weapon manipulation parts, are AR centric. 308 battle rifles are mainly discouraged due to cost and weight of ammo. We get the occasional AK. So long as AK ammo conforms to the rules above, it is fine – it has to be basic ball ammo. AK ammo (i.e. 7.62 x 39) is actually a lot slower than AR ammo anyway, so should damage the steel less. We do need more data on all types of AK ammo.


        Here are a couple of videos from Texas, where I am currently running classes, to show the steel in action:


        General Info / Links:

        TRAINING LOCATIONS

        TRAINING CLASS LIST

        TRAINING CALENDAR

        HOW TO BOOK TRAINING

        MOBILE TRAINING CLASSES

         

         

      • #101537
        texas
        Participant

          Not a huge deal. Your steel. Your rules.

        • #101538
          Robert
          Participant

            I think you’ll find most X39 won’t be a problem with decent steel. Anyone that still has old skewl Chinese steel core isn’t shooting it. That would probably be the only X39 round I’d be concerned with on steel targets.

            That being said, I think some pitting is just par for the course over time with steel.

          • #101539
            Pinky
            Participant

              so wolf gold .223 is ok? not “XM193” or a “193” variant, but if velocity is the concern, this and a bunch of other FMJ are rated well over 3K fps (out of 20″ barrel). Just looking for the parameters to determine what is kosher and not…

              thanks

            • #101540
              Yankee Terrier
              Participant

                wolf gold .223 is good ammo, usually from Taiwan these days, and since the advent of ISO 9001 it is exceptionally clean…good price too..save M855 or M193 for being warshots,,,Max I am doing PT at home in order to attend your classes, much like eating an elephant though..one bite at a time..

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