Ammo cache retrieval results 16 years later

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    • #108681
      Robert
      Participant

        It’s about time to check it, rotate and replenish so that’s just what we did.

        How does ammo fare underground for 16 years in a wet area? Let’s see-

        Getting there is half the battle! “But wait I thought all the nerdy self proclaimed list making but not doing anything survival experts always say plant your caches vertically instead of horizontally?”

        Yes, people that have rarely ever done this, or more to the point RETRIEVED a cache 5, 10, 20 years after burial always state to bury them vertical. Theory being that it makes a smaller signature for metal detectors. But how does that really hold up in the “real world?”

        First off, the cheap $199. metal detector I bought 15 or more years ago specifically to FIND a cache I deployed vertically can find a cache several feet underground it whether it’s vertical or horizontal, so I think the “smaller signature” thing is utter BS.

        Also, having actually retrieved a few caches that were put in vertically, I can tell you that when you go back 10-15 years later to retrieve it EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT!

        “Oh but internet survival expert list maker guy said just take a couple azimuths to some trees and triangulate and you’ll be fine.”

        Once again, most internet list maker survival “experts” haven’t actually DONE this stuff, so…. Yes have some landmarks noted, but some landmarks CHANGE over time. You come back and find out oh crap someone has logged this area, someone pulled down the old fencing I used as a “landmark”, etc.

        “But, but, but but GPS doood, get with the times…” Yes it may be working post collapse but it may not.

        So why horizontal instead of vertical? Because you can find it easier and retrieve it easier.

        A 6 inch tube 3 foot long deployed vertical leaves you a SIX INCH target to find in a landscape that could potentially change dramatically from the time of emplacement to the time of retrieval. However if that same 3 foot long tube is deployed horizontally you have a 3 FOOT by SIX INCH target to find. Trust me, this is much easier to find.

        I have spent countless hours probing and digging around a 10×20 area looking for a vertical six inch tube. This is the reason I own a metal detector… In contrast we pulled the tube in these pics quickly, walking to the spot, probing twice and finding the tube quickly.

        Less time at the cache site is important now and could be life or death important later if you are retrieving it under truly bad circumstances. Also a horizontal placed tube can be levered out of a hole in softer soil once enough dirt is removed.

        So this one was your standard 6 inch PVC pipe with GLUED ON end caps. NOT “test caps”, NOT “threaded” caps (can leak over long time). A lot of people like to argue for threaded caps claiming it makes retrieval of items quicker. I put in several PVC caches with screw on threaded caps in the 90’s. Every one of them suffered water leakage over time. I won’t say what was in some of them, but suffice to say it cost me several hundred dollars using threaded caps. Also, threaded caps may seem easier now, but after 10-20 years with sand, grit and gunk in the threads, it will not be as easy to unscrew as it is now clean and dry.

        Another consideration is sizing your tube for ease of carrying. People tend to get greedy with space and think more is always better. Again, not really thinking ahead to the day when you are perhaps cold, tired, sick, wounded, perhaps being chased and trying to find and retrieve these at night. People talk about net bags, little pieces of wood on a string etc. to pull the items up out of a vertical cache. That’s cute. But the little block of wood takes up space that will be at a premium. The net bag isn’t a bad idea if it works. The important part is that you size your tube where you can carry the whole tube off quickly if need be.

        On this particular one I used a thin mylar bag for the ammo. Back in the 90’s you could find these bags, which are actually rolls of material originally used for packaging MOPP suits. The material is a bit weak, like a cheaper mylar liner for a 5 gallon bucket is. I would not use them again. The ammo is loose inside the bag and I would definitely change that now- putting a couple hundred rounds in individual 1 gallon mylar liners inside the tube. But we work with what we have at the time, and the 1 gallon mylars weren’t an option when I packed this.

        The ammo did fine and I cannot find a trace of moisture or rust issues, despite the fact that this was deployed in a swamp for 16 years now Oxygen absorbers were used in the mylar liner as well.

        What I would have changed-

        So this was a specific drop for a specific purpose, suffice to say I’m not showing you everything However changes I would make-

        *Now that 1 gallon mylar liners are common (they weren’t back then) I would pack 100-150 rounds in each mylar and pack the tube full of individual bags. The net result when I have done it this way has been less total rounds in each tube. However it is easier to handle both now and in the future.

        *Extra mags- I was surprised to find no extra mags in this tube. I usually put a few extra mags in these.

        *A “dead” end- this corresponds nicely with the mags. So thinking ahead, how will you OPEN this in a bad situation? Small hacksaw blade in your pack? Workable but a PITA big time. Power tools may not be an option. I would submit that you should MARK the end that has mags in it and purposely keep ammo back a bit from it. Why? So that you could potentially burn some of the end to open it in the field if you had no other options. Don’t read that wrong and post some dumb crap- I’m NOT saying burn the whole flipping tube!!! I’m saying under primitive conditions, with maybe only your field knife, how are you going to open this in the field? Remember the “cold, hungry, sick, at night” part? Don’t expect the sun to be shining and every power tool in the world available to you if you ever REALLY need to open one of these. WORSE CASE, you could carefully try to get the “dead end” cap melting by just barely letting it burn and scraping a hole with a stick as it burns. Hence why you might want to not have ammo stacked at one end of the tube. Far fetched yes, but stupid crap happens when we don’t plan ahead. Also, just CUTTING the cap off later with something like a reciprocating saw is a lot easier and safer when you know the worst that’s going to happen if that you hit a metal magazine, versus worrying that you will hit a cartridge with the saw blade.

      • #108682
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          Inserted the pictures for you. :good:

          This is outstanding information that it would be wise to pay close attention to.

          I’ll post some thoughts and personal variations shortly.

          Thanks Robert for Posting this. :yes:

        • #108683
          tango
          Participant

            This is some great info. Thanks @lowdown3

          • #108684
            BradyBunch
            Participant

              Very good article, Well done! Ever try a Mon Vault or similar? I image it would have similar results to your experience with threaded PVC caps…
              https://smile.amazon.com/Mono-Vault-236-Black-diameter/dp/B00SS2Z36I/ref=sr_1_5?crid=235VWTARYX57T&keywords=mono vault burial tube&qid=1554330867&s=gateway&sprefix=tube burial,aps,138&sr=8-5

            • #108685
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                Before I get into my experiences with caches.

                Though it should be self-evident here are some thoughts of the “why” caches are necessary.

                Logistics:

                To achieve above you will need supplies. If all of your supplies are sitting on shelves at home your not prepared! The classic “don’t put all your eggs in one basket” applies.

                A rough guideline if you plan to stay in place, then the bulk of your supplies will be on your property. Note: I said on your property, not in your basement or garage. Something like 25% of this should have easy access. The rest needs to be secured in multiple locations with a variety of methods.

                Think about it. Lets not even talk about “Post-Event,” most so called preppers have everything in one location. A house or outbuilding fire could destroy all their supplies. What if the “Event” happens between this fire and your insurance settlement? Your screwed!

                The rest of your supplies (remember I said bulk before) need to be dispersed to multiple quick cache trails and your secondary retreat (even if just a spot of land).

                All the above is a brief overview. I could write books on the various sections.

                It does demonstrate that very few people are prepared!

                Acknowledging your not ready and working towards it is fine.

                What is completely unacceptable is thinking your prepared when your just blowing smoke up your rear end!

                It’s really a journey vice a destination since there will always be something to add.

              • #108686
                veritas556
                Participant

                  Really good stuff Robert! Would Foodsaver vacuum bags work well for this too?

                • #108687
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    …underground for 16 years in a wet area? Let’s see-

                    Wet area?

                    While it’s not a problem with Robert’s depicted use here, when caching supplies you must consider the buoyancy of the loaded cache container.

                    You must strive for at least neutral buoyancy in wet or even the 200 year floodplain areas.

                    If you don’t caches have been known to come to the surface in flooded conditions.

                    A potentially embarrassing situation. ;-)

                    Don’t take my word for it…

                    …sure its a different kind of cache, but illustrative.

                  • #108690
                    Robert
                    Participant

                      Really good stuff Robert! Would Foodsaver vacuum bags work well for this too?

                      Sure. I think you’ll find the 1 gallon mylar liners are a bit more solid however.

                    • #108691
                      Robert
                      Participant

                        Before I get into my experiences with caches.

                        Though it should be self-evident here are some thoughts of the “why” caches are necessary.

                        Logistics:

                        To achieve above you will need supplies. If all of your supplies are sitting on shelves at home your not prepared! The classic “don’t put all your eggs in one basket” applies.

                        A rough guideline if you plan to stay in place, then the bulk of your supplies will be on your property. Note: I said on your property, not in your basement or garage. Something like 25% of this should have easy access. The rest needs to be secured in multiple locations with a variety of methods.

                        Think about it. Lets not even talk about “Post-Event,” most so called preppers have everything in one location. A house or outbuilding fire could destroy all their supplies. What if the “Event” happens between this fire and your insurance settlement? Your screwed!

                        The rest of your supplies (remember I said bulk before) need to be dispersed to multiple quick cache trails and your secondary retreat (even if just a spot of land).

                        All the above is a brief overview. I could write books on the various sections.

                        It does demonstrate that very few people are prepared!

                        Acknowledging your not ready and working towards it is fine.

                        What is completely unacceptable is thinking your prepared when your just blowing smoke up your rear end!

                        It’s really a journey vice a destination since there will always be something to add.

                        Very well said!!!

                      • #108692
                        First Sergeant
                        Moderator

                          Damn good write up and info.

                          One of the biggest things is the retrieval. I remember planning caches for others to be able to locate. Your description has to be dead on and take into account the possibility of how things may change.

                          While I agree that a GPS makes things a hell of a lot easier, there is a reason that I recommend that people get really good with a map and protractor.

                          @Joe (G.W.N.S.), seeing your pic of floating caskets reminded me of the planning that went into underwater caches.

                          FILO
                          Signal Out, Can You Identify
                          Je ne regrette rien
                          In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                        • #108693
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            @Joe (G.W.N.S.), seeing your pic of floating caskets reminded me of the planning that went into underwater caches.

                            I love underwater caches.

                            Thought about a write up on them, but I suspect its too much for this format.

                            When I talk about packing my pack for neutral buoyancy most peoples eyes glass over. ;-)

                          • #108694
                            Sitting Duck
                            Participant

                              While I haven’t retrieved buried ammo or other things I have dug up the septic tank lid. Foam board (packing peanuts are hard to come by now) are easier to dig up and encouraging you knowing that you are in the right place. Definitely not going to work in an area prone to flooding.

                              Have you used a tile probe for location?

                            • #108695
                              First Sergeant
                              Moderator

                                @Joe (G.W.N.S.), seeing your pic of floating caskets reminded me of the planning that went into underwater caches.

                                I love underwater caches.

                                Thought about a write up on them, but I suspect its too much for this format.

                                When I talk about packing my pack for neutral buoyancy most peoples eyes glass over. ;-)

                                Yeah, probably a little much here.

                                I thought everyone packed their ruck that way until I had some conversations with people that had no clue what I was talking about and that was still while on AD.

                                FILO
                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                Je ne regrette rien
                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                              • #108696
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  I thought everyone packed their ruck that way until I had some conversations with people that had no clue what I was talking about and that was still while on AD.

                                  The difference in early mentors in my case; probably the same for you, the kind of people that have seen more than deserts.

                                  The ignorance demonstrated by some of the current “seasoned” is disappointing.

                                  Edit to add:
                                  Being ignorant isn’t the problem; we’re all ignorant of some things, it’s the failure to admit there are still things to be learned.

                                • #108697
                                  Anonymous
                                  Inactive

                                    Awesome post Robert! I would’ve expected rougher results with steel-case ammo but wow!

                                    In another thread Dave37 posted a link to video about JRTC OPFOR’s operations, building caches was fourth on the list, though it would be 3 for FREEFOR here unless someone has mines nobody knows about. (About 6:38 into it, though it’s worth watching the whole thing.)

                                    Definitely something easily overlooked but worth knowing and something I didn’t have that much knowledge about before, great info!

                                  • #108698
                                    JohnnyMac
                                    Participant

                                      What about the screw-on end caps? No need to do any hard work or noise to get it open other than maybe needing a wrench. I know it’s a bit more money, just something to think about.

                                      There’s also an additional level of complexity with urban caches.

                                    • #108699
                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                      Moderator

                                        What about the screw-on end caps?

                                        Consider…

                                        So this one was your standard 6 inch PVC pipe with GLUED ON end caps. NOT “test caps”, NOT “threaded” caps (can leak over long time). A lot of people like to argue for threaded caps claiming it makes retrieval of items quicker. I put in several PVC caches with screw on threaded caps in the 90’s. Every one of them suffered water leakage over time. I won’t say what was in some of them, but suffice to say it cost me several hundred dollars using threaded caps. Also, threaded caps may seem easier now, but after 10-20 years with sand, grit and gunk in the threads, it will not be as easy to unscrew as it is now clean and dry.

                                        I agree with Robert’s assessment, any attempt to make threaded cache tubes waterproof makes them extremely difficult to open to the point that you would probably end up having to cut them open anyway.

                                        Given the life threatening potential of losing contents, it isn’t worth the risk IMHO.

                                      • #108700
                                        Roadkill
                                        Participant

                                          I used to own a remodeling company in my former life. When coming upon some pvc pipes where you couldn’t get a hack saw or reciprocating saw in we would use nylon brick layers string. We would work it around the pipe then with the two ends start a sawing motion. You have to find the correct speed and the string melts right through the pipe. I imagine a high strength braided fishing line would work great, but I’m interested to see if 550 cord would work, since we all carry that. It may be too thick, at which point you me have to gut it and use the internal string. I am going to try 550 today. I know nylon string does work though. I’ll post my results with the 550.

                                        • #108701
                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                          Moderator

                                            Security considerations often overlooked.

                                            Emplacement:

                                            Are you being observed? Have you practiced the methods and techniques of concealing initial traces of emplacement?

                                            Location:

                                            Choosing location. If you hypothetically chose to place a cache in a nonpermissive location, have you considered the identifiable contents and forensic evidence that could compromise you if cache discovered.

                                            Environmental considerations such as freeze/thaw depth? How does this effect the contents?

                                            Where and what format are the details for recovery of cache stored. Who else knows about cache? Estate planning?

                                            Some overlooked thoughts. ;-)

                                          • #108702
                                            Robert
                                            Participant

                                              I used to own a remodeling company in my former life. When coming upon some pvc pipes where you couldn’t get a hack saw or reciprocating saw in we would use nylon brick layers string. We would work it around the pipe then with the two ends start a sawing motion. You have to find the correct speed and the string melts right through the pipe. I imagine a high strength braided fishing line would work great, but I’m interested to see if 550 cord would work, since we all carry that. It may be too thick, at which point you me have to gut it and use the internal string. I am going to try 550 today. I know nylon string does work though. I’ll post my results with the 550.

                                              I know what your talking about, had an electrician explain how they use that on plastic tubing for wires. Never tried it on schedule 40 that was that big though.

                                              You can buy the hacksaw blades, wrap part of them in duct tape making a bogus hand hold and they fit nicely in your pack. Wouldn’t be my first choice but our packs have them for that reason.

                                            • #108703
                                              JohnnyMac
                                              Participant

                                                Consider…

                                                Lag time between reading post and responding…operator error. LOL

                                              • #108704
                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                Moderator

                                                  LOL

                                                  It happens to everyone! ;-)

                                                • #108705
                                                  Robert
                                                  Participant

                                                    Security considerations often overlooked.

                                                    Emplacement:

                                                    Are you being observed? Have you practiced the methods and techniques of concealing initial traces of emplacement?

                                                    Location:

                                                    Choosing location. If you hypothetically chose to place a cache in a nonpermissive location, have you considered the identifiable contents and forensic evidence that could compromise you if cache discovered.

                                                    Environmental considerations such as freeze/thaw depth? How does this effect the contents?

                                                    Where and what format are the details for recovery of cache stored. Who else knows about cache? Estate planning?

                                                    Some overlooked thoughts. ;-)

                                                    YES!!!

                                                    Trusted others have to know about it, or at least that something worthwhile digging up is there.

                                                    20 years ago when we bought our property I put a small cache in that contained two years property tax payments worth of cash (small amount thankfully cause it’s less than 10 acres) and also some precious metals of a similar value to 1 year prop tax payment. Added in copies of the deed.
                                                    Called it my “Jeremiah cache.”

                                                    People overlook stuff like this thinking that if TSHTF everything will always be that way. Most likely not. And as Max says the “tides of war” being what they are- you may be run out of the place you live now. But you may be able to return years later. How do you prove ownership if the “1st Peeeeple’s Army” burned down all the county buildings during their “glorious revolution” in an attempt to promote socialism (that failed in a few years when everyone starved sitting on their asses)? Perhaps you could redeem your property rights provided you could prove ownership and maybe clear up any back taxes? Or just maybe the economy crashed, you found yourself with no cash and oh crap the man wants his yearly rent (aka property taxes). Going in and offering him a couple cows may not be an option. But greenbacks would be and/or selling the precious metals off and using that to pay your property taxes is another option.

                                                    Plan for as many contingencies as you can.

                                                  • #108706
                                                    Robert
                                                    Participant

                                                      Consider…

                                                      Lag time between reading post and responding…operator error. LOL

                                                      I thought this would be a good way to go also- threaded caps. I lost a couple hundred dollars worth of gear that way. And the cap took forever to get off after years of sand, mud, moisture locked the damn thing in place.

                                                      Even the stuff inside that was packed in sealed mylar liners were ruined.
                                                      Interesting aside, so there was a bag of about 150 rounds of 9mm HP in one of those caches. It got wet along with everything else. I didn’t immediately toss it- dumb mistake on my part. About 8 years later I’m going to head over and do some shooting. What’s this bag of 9mm? Better rotate it. Was on my last magazine of the stuff when the pistol blew up- looked like Wil E. Coyote’s gun blowing up while trying to get the Road Runner! Split the frame on a Taurus PT92! “That’s about time I realized….” that this was the bag of soaked ammo from that cache. Taurus however to their credit with their lifetime warranty, sent me a brand new gun!

                                                      Yeah, I’ve done a lot of dumb shit over the years, hopefully you can learn from my mistakes :)

                                                    • #108688
                                                      Robert
                                                      Participant

                                                        Very good article, Well done! Ever try a Mon Vault or similar? I image it would have similar results to your experience with threaded PVC caps…
                                                        https://smile.amazon.com/Mono-Vault-236-Black-diameter/dp/B00SS2Z36I/ref=sr_1_5?crid=235VWTARYX57T&keywords=mono vault burial tube&qid=1554330867&s=gateway&sprefix=tube burial,aps,138&sr=8-5

                                                        $203. seems pretty high.

                                                        8 inch PVC caps are a killer, around $40. each last I checked.

                                                        6 inch is probably the largest you will find at Lowes, Home Despot, etc. Watch for clearance markings on the larger stuff. Got a ton of six inch caps and various fittings one time at about 75% off.

                                                        8 inch PVC will hold a couple rifles- or so I’ve heard :whistle:

                                                        6 inch can hold some rifles with a little disassembly required. Ammo, mags, food and other sustainment stuff like Joe said.

                                                        DMV is a different thickness of pipe but you can sometimes find hanks of that abandoned here and there at job sites, etc. Pipe could be free but the caps may be harder to find.

                                                      • #108689
                                                        Robert
                                                        Participant

                                                          Inserted the pictures for you. :good:

                                                          This is outstanding information that it would be wise to pay close attention to.

                                                          I’ll post some thoughts and personal variations shortly.

                                                          Thanks Robert for Posting this. :yes:

                                                          Thank you!

                                                        • #108707
                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                          Moderator

                                                            A couple comments that got lost. :unsure:

                                                          • #108708
                                                            Robert
                                                            Participant

                                                              A couple comments that got lost. :unsure:

                                                              Thanks Joe. I’ve noticed that a time or two lately but didn’t want to seem like a whiner and mention it.

                                                            • #108709
                                                              BradyBunch
                                                              Participant

                                                                Thanks, Robert. They are spendy, and appear to be the same material as plastic garbage cans. The 8-10 inc PVC is insane prices up here in NJ, Ive seen $190 for 10 ft lengths.

                                                              • #108710
                                                                Robert
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Thanks, Robert. They are spendy, and appear to be the same material as plastic garbage cans. The 8-10 inc PVC is insane prices up here in NJ, Ive seen $190 for 10 ft lengths.

                                                                  Yes it’s pretty darn expensive, but look at the materials you are planning on putting in them and weigh the costs based on that.

                                                                  Also, just like in the pics, everything is reusable except one cap and you only lose a small amount of length when you re-use them. I’ve re-used more than a few 6 inch tubes over the years.

                                                                • #108711
                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                  Moderator

                                                                    Thanks Joe. I’ve noticed that a time or two lately but didn’t want to seem like a whiner and mention it.

                                                                    We have a few issues that seem hidden from IT guys at moment.

                                                                    As Max has mentioned a solutions is at hand, but for now I am fixing as alerted or if I happen across them.

                                                                    I want to see more posts and I can fix them quick when alerted.

                                                                    Besides a PM to me isn’t a whine! :yahoo:

                                                                  • #108712
                                                                    Max
                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                      @robert – just stick that AK directly in the ground for 16 years, pull it up, it should work fine, right?

                                                                      :yahoo:

                                                                    • #108713
                                                                      Robert
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        @robert – just stick that AK directly in the ground for 16 years, pull it up, it should work fine, right?

                                                                        :yahoo:

                                                                        Normal SOP in that case is to bake mud encrusted AK near a fire, then break mud off in one or two sections followed up by peeing through both barrel and action in order to cut down on corrosion in the weapon itself. Full on cleaning (using dead Russian Major’s shoe laces are previously outlined) isn’t recommended for a minimum of 10,000 rounds after the preventative maintenance described above.

                                                                      • #108714
                                                                        Max
                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                          Here is something to consider, more applicable to short-term caching, and probably more applicable to a limited AO rather than the vastness of North America.

                                                                          In Northern Ireland, the IRA (various names but let’s keep it simple) were very clever about cut-outs in their organization. Thus they would have quartermasters who would move weapons and equipment through various channels where they would eventually be used in an attack. Ambush, sniper attack, IED etc.

                                                                          In order for one group to be able to drop a weapon and for it to be picked up by another group, there had to be a way of knowing where. So lets say a couple of rifles are being moved along a transit route in order to get to an ASU for a planned attack. So one group would drop the weapons at a short term cache. These caches were often PVC pipes dug into the bank of a ditch or similar.

                                                                          The technique was identified sometime in the 70’s or 80’s by an Army Captain, and used against them by security forces. So, when the cache was filled, the next courier would be told a method to find it. So, park in the ‘lay-by’ on the A** 5 miles outside *******. Remember this is usually ‘cutsie’ Northern Irish rural terrain of windy roads and hills and fields. A lay-by in this example is just a small parking area at the side of the road. An example might be – first marker – look for the tree struck by lightning. Second marker fenceline going east till it crosses a ditch. Third marker is 5 posts along the fence by the ditch until the broken fence post. In the ditch would be the dug-in cache, but end-caps visible, not having to actually dig it out.

                                                                          So, once this method was identified, it would be used by security forces in an AO. As time went on in the political climatic it was not allowed for a security force patrol to do a random search, but what they were allowed to do was a ‘rummage’ of an area. As this was further tightened up these rummages could be achieved notionally as part of the 5/20 meter IED / VBIED checks at a halt. Thus, you move into an area and then conduct a rummage. You look about for something that could be used as a marker and then see what might be used after that. A little bit of ‘hedge beating’ is also involved at times.

                                                                          But everything is a cat and mouse game. Is the cache a set-up for an IED? I remember on a green army rural patrol in my early days as a Para Patrol Commander where my buddy found a cache with the end caps on. Night. I can’t recall the circumstances but I told everyone to go away and pulled the end caps off. Thing was, I wanted to know if it was full – a rural counter-IED op ran on the 5 D’s – which meant delay, usually for about 5 days. This, if I had not pulled the end caps off and we had called it in on an empty cache, we would have ended up forming a cordon, digging battle trenches, and sitting there for 3 – 5 days until ATO (EOD) bothered his ass to take the long walk and check it out. As it was I could simply report it as an empty cache with the end caps off and not have to bother with all that crap.

                                                                          There was a means where if few enough (think circle of trust) in the patrol saw it, they could call it in on a confidential number. Think maybe one or two guys seeing something and keeping it quiet. This was always better. In a counter-insurgency operation it is all about the Intel. Sit on an armalite in a cache for 5 days? Or, report it confidentially and allow a covert camera to be put on it, and the lay-by, and get information? If ‘Int Indicated’ enough, a manned reactive OP could be put on it. That would allow an arrest of a courier if wanted, or just an identification and more info into the Intel machine.

                                                                          So this may not apply to someone burying a cache for 16 years, but it is something to think about in a political climate in any way similar to Northern Ireland, where security forces are looking for caches as weapons are moved,. However, that took a long time and a lot of training for the Brit Mil to reach that level of competence, so I don’t see that happening rapidly with security forces in the US.

                                                                        • #108715
                                                                          tango
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            I thought everyone packed their ruck that way until I had some conversations with people that had no clue what I was talking about and that was still while on AD.

                                                                            @firstsergeant Done a search for info online about this and came up empty. Consider this 1 vote for a thread. Multiple applications for this.

                                                                          • #108716
                                                                            First Sergeant
                                                                            Moderator

                                                                              I thought everyone packed their ruck that way until I had some conversations with people that had no clue what I was talking about and that was still while on AD.

                                                                              @firstsergeant Done a search for info online about this and came up empty. Consider this 1 vote for a thread. Multiple applications for this.

                                                                              That will take some time and pics. don’t look for it soon.

                                                                              Unless @Joe (G.W.N.S.) has something already on his computer.

                                                                              FILO
                                                                              Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                                              Je ne regrette rien
                                                                              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                                            • #108717
                                                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                              Moderator

                                                                                Unless @Joe (G.W.N.S.) has something already on his computer.

                                                                                Unfortunately no I don’t, but before we recreate such information let me do some searching. Since I am more familiar with the topic I may have more success than Tango had.

                                                                              • #108718
                                                                                Anonymous
                                                                                Inactive

                                                                                  Just another thought if you live in the higher elevations or if it freezes in the winter time. The dirt will be frozen and not able to dig up. Some ways taken from trappers to keep their traps from freezing and still functioning in the winter months is to use salt on the bottom, sides and top of the dirt. Another option is to pack in peet moss and surround it in conjuction with the salt with a thin layer of dirt covering it. Sand can also be used in place of the peet moss but is much heavier to pack if you need to pack in to your cache. :good:

                                                                                • #129879
                                                                                  Eagle23
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    Great info, something everyone should be thinking about these days.

                                                                                  • #129897
                                                                                    DiznNC
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      Just for those that don’t know, Robert is one of very few from the early days, who was actually doing what most others only talked about. Back when we were survivalists.

                                                                                      My first vertical cache, from the 90’s was almost impossible to dig up. I had paracord strung completely around it, in a full 4-line cross, and it still barely pulled out. I used 3 layers of 3 mil plastic, duct taped in 3 complete layers. Zero penetration. All metal was heavily oiled. These were dug up when I left Kali in ’04.

                                                                                      Robert knows what he’s talking about. Bury horizontal. Glue both end caps. Maybe duct tape some hacksaw blades to exterior. Or carry those survival hacksaw chains.

                                                                                      In the Carolinas, or any heavily forested area, you would not believe how fast roots will grow and cover your cache. You will probably need a pick axe besides shovel to recover. A short, narrow “hotshot” shovel works best in our hard pack clay.

                                                                                      I use paracord “telltales” that rise up to the surface and are good indicators you’re on target.

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