5.56 choices: M193 or 885?

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  • This topic has 12 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 6 months ago by dnb. This post has been viewed 117 times
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    • #108424
      Max
      Keymaster

        (Max edits: this is another post not by me, due to the user being deleted and the content being assigned to ‘Max’).

        I remember a great conversation about choosing the 5.56 for SHTF scenarios. M193 verses M885.

        Anyone remember where on the Forum this was?

        IIRC it was a long conversation about ammo and someone added a ballistics chart?

        Please advise.

        Z~

      • #108425
        Max
        Keymaster

          My preference is the 885 verses the 193. Then again not much experience with the M193. Time to check in with the MVT ammo experts for a consensus. Love to compare ballistics, and stopping power for both.
          Hearing much talk about the 6.8mm.

        • #108426
          JustARandomGuy
          Participant

            This may be it (caveat, I did not read the attached article): http://forum.maxvelocitytactical.com/forums/topic/5-56-vs-7-62-vs-6-8-vs-6-5/

            …Hearing much talk about the 6.8mm.

            Not to sound like a jerk, but I think the “hearing much talk” part of the 6.8 question is all one needs to know.
            The problem is the “SHTF” portion of the ammo selection matrix. It won’t matter how great the round of choice is if post event it ceases to exist in short order.
            With 5.56, 7.62×51 and 9mm, NATO would literally have to change calibers for those to disappear to an extent that would diminish their usefulness, so as long as there is working equipment and people to run it.

            As far as 193 vs 855….
            Personally, from what I’ve taken away from this endless debate, the only thing that would justify the 855 over 193 is you do get a slightly heavier bullet, and therefore slightly better terminal performance and barrier penetration. However, to the best of my knowledge you’re not going to see a marked improvement in terminal performance unless you switch to a JHP, and/or heavier round, or something specifically designed for enhanced barrier penetration and terminal performance (like some of the personal defense marketed stuff).
            That being said, I believe you can get much the same ballistic performance with plain ol’ 62gr FMJ from a decent manufacturer (or roll your own with better bullets). And of course if you have a 1:7 twist barrel, then you should get better accuracy with the heavier rounds as well.

            The AP thing with 855 is sort of moot in my opinion simply because most plate armor worth its salt these days is 855 rated.

            Frankly, I don’t see anyone getting center punched with either round and laughing at you because you only hit him with a 55gr projectile…
            That being said, if standard 62gr FMJ was a little more common and a little cheaper, it’s probably what I’d be running since the heavier round would play well with my 1:7 barrel, and there would be a slight performance increase downrange, but I have to try and save a little money here and there, and since I don’t feel like the price premium often seen for 855 is worth the squeeze, 55gr/193 it is… :unsure:
            Of course the above opinion is worth what you paid for it….

            If I recall, there’s a 62gr HP round from WOLF that Fred likes.

          • #108427
            First Sergeant
            Moderator

              I remember a great conversation about choosing the 5.56 for SHTF scenarios. M193 verses M885.

              Anyone remember where on the Forum this was?

              IIRC it was a long conversation about ammo and someone added a ballistics chart?

              Please advise.

              Z~

              zuke19,

              Don’t remember that post but I’ll give you my recommendation and what I recommend to students at class when I am asked.

              I use M193 for all training and keep M855 as my SHTF ammo. My rifles are zeroed with M855. While there is a shift in the zero between the two, there is not enough of a difference to have a negative impact on training.

              Hope that helps.

              FILO
              Signal Out, Can You Identify
              Je ne regrette rien
              In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

            • #108428
              DiznNC
              Participant

                Concur with 1st Sgt. 193= training ammo. 855= war ammo.

                You know, if you are stocking up now, buy accordingly.

                When the SHTF: whatever is available.

              • #108429
                Greg Owens
                Participant

                  I have 5 A1 and A2 one in twelve twist ARs so I stick with
                  universal 55 grain M193. No assigning this ammo to this gun.

                • #108430
                  DiznNC
                  Participant

                    You know it really depends on the bbl. I have 1:7 twists on mine which should have trouble stabilizing 55 gr but I shoot the shit out of that stuff in training.

                    It WILL taper off at distance, so maybe there is some effect, but 100m and in no problem.

                  • #108431
                    RTOhio
                    Participant

                      FWIW, I have been shooting 55grn. since the very early 1980’s. I am a big proponent of its use regardless of twist rate within reason. I have also shot it through my A2’s and have had no problems. IIRC, 885 ammo was designed so that it could slice through a NATO helmet. I have talked to numerous Vietnam vets, mostly SF, MACVSOG, and Rangers who have stated that the M16A1 round (55) was a great round for what it was designed to do. Its instability when it hits anything thicker than air can be a detriment when used in a jungle or forested environment. Albeit, when I was shooting 55 in my own studies back then through vegetation I found that distance was a big factor as to how it would do. How far away from the vegetation are you from your enemy. Even with vegetation as thick as several yards an me being 1009 yards back I still achieved penetration and know key holing. With that being said, I still am a believer in AP ammo. You just have to figure out the right distance to make it more effective. For instance, during WWII and Korea the troops that were able to find the stuff with 30.06 AP and fired it found out that the round itself would penetrate better at 150 Yards or better. The round became more stable as the distance was increased and penetrated better for a direct tip hit on concrete. No wobbling and had time to stabilize itself sufficiently before impact. Just my opinion along with many others and some unscientific data.

                    • #108432
                      TC
                      Participant

                        The AP thing with 855 is sort of moot in my opinion simply because most plate armor worth its salt these days is 855 rated.

                        Lots of places now offer ultra lightweight Level III plates in the 2-3 lb range. Weight is attractive enough that Level III are out there in use. Stops M193, 7.62×39, and M80… and wouldn’t it be nice if that were enough. But no, for M855 one needs III / IV plates at 4.5 pounds and up. And not all III are even rated for M855. So some M855 on hand would be good to punch through the III’s.

                      • #108433
                        RTOhio
                        Participant

                          And a number of companies that manufacturer B/A require a level IV for anything rated to stop a 30.06 AP projectile too.

                        • #108434
                          Jamison
                          Participant

                            193 is training, 855 is war ammo for me.

                            For home defense, I use 55g Polymer Tip Hornady in my AR. I really like these rounds for an urban application. But I only ever have a few mags worth at a time because of the cost, The zero is very close to 193 so I just switch it out if needed for training.

                          • #108435
                            Weber
                            Participant

                              Sorry a little off topic but here’s a link to a nice thread over on M4C on trajectories and ballistics of 193 and 855. Not sure if you need to be a member to view this thread but I thought it was very useful.

                              Link

                              Also another thread on zeroing

                            • #108436
                              dnb
                              Participant

                                For fleshy creatures, soft points are what hunters use cause they do the job and are inexpensive. Tons of ballistic information and terminal effects on big game. Unless one is looking for a strong and deep penetrating bullet, copper bullets are great, but expensive. One can catch sp ammo for near the same as the other bullet types.

                                All the standard cartridges that are prevalent and have history are great.

                                There’s an outfit out of New Zealand that give real world analysis on nearly every cartridge, many bullet types, and loads with terminal performance. Great info.
                                http://www.ballisticstudies.com

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