Call Out: Avoiding Ego in the Gear Advice Game
EDIT: some of the comments on this post are excellent, really affirming the quality if the readership, and in many cases expressing what I was trying to say better than I originally did in the article below. My responses I think also clarify what I was getting at. So please, when you have read the article, read the comments, before commenting yourself. Thanks.
Follow Up Article HERE: The Citizen Insurgent
For those of you who read my blog, you will know that I have given out a lot of gear advice over time. I have not been shy about taking photos of my gear, and posting them, to give those of you who need a visual reference something to work off. The point is not to clone your gear off mine, but to give you options. This is why, after making so many recommendations about battle belts, I have recently turned my attention to chest rigs (The FLC), in order to talk about sensible ways to rig them up, and give you options. All gear and equipment carriage is a compromise of some sort.
I read the three recent posts over at Mosby’s site with a mixture of interest and also concern. Why the concern? Because there is a lot on there about how much better the US SF is than the Rangers, and how much better the US SF is than everyone else, and how much gear was carried, and all that. Basically, a lot of it comes from ego and is about ego. Now, it is my understanding that Mosby is a very good trainer. That is most definitely needed. But what is not needed is ego that leads to advice that will do the reader a disservice.
It’s also Mosby breaking cover and telling you that only he, as former SF, is qualified to teach tactics that are right for SHTF, because he is former SF.
Now, I know this post will upset some of those self-styled SF groupies out there. It may also upset some of the SF mafia, but I doubt that, because they will know that what I am saying is true, particularly the old-school ones, the quiet professionals without the ego. I do what I do to give you the best advice. I won’t tell you to go and do outlandish ruck marches with huge amounts of weight, because that’s what I used to do as a Green Beret (I was never a Green Beret). I also won’t tell you to carry huge amounts of weight and equipment because that’s the way we used to do it, and everyone else is shit compared to us. I won’t imply that, due to the UW role of US SF, that they are the only people that can advise preppers and Patriots for an SHTF situation!
What interests me about “Mr. FAGs” rig is that it clearly comes from an older time, as part of a personal journey. He found and started using the vest along with his LBV and liked it for what he was doing, with an SF unit in Germany during the Cold War. I guess it’s a little bit like my battle belt. Does everyone need to purchase an aviator survival vest to emulate that? Hell no. There are better ways to do that anyway, and I will give a pointer on that below. Will sales of aviator vests go up now? Pretty likely. I will be laughing. The other thing is that “Mr. FAG”, while carrying what Mosby describes as a huge amount of weight, injured his back on the WV class when he slipped on a log. My guess? He’s older now, was carrying too much weight, and one thing led to another.
And really, that is my point. It’s all very well to talk about how much weight people used to carry when they were on an SF team. But I am in the game of giving advice to armed citizens who are interested in running the spectrum from protecting the family post-SHTF, to potentially running as resistance fighters against enemies foreign and domestic.
In THIS POST I talked again about modifying your gear philosophy, and acting smart. Here are some points:
1) In an SHTF environment, you could say that we are all operating ‘behind enemy lines.’ This is why I push the need for a sustainment load on the body. What I mean by that is enough equipment to survive, on your body, if you lose your ruck, or are operating without it, with load bearing equipment and patrol pack. But the flip side to that is that I am discouraging you from trying to go ‘too heavy.’ We all know that today’s soldiers are carrying too much weight to be fully effective as infantrymen, and that applies equally to US SF, even if that is what they had to do in training.
2) The following are problems with going too heavy:
- PT levels
- Age
- Carriage of pre-existing injuries
- Lack of resupply (counter intuitive)
- Starvation/loss of physical condition SHTF
What this means is, rather than going all ego and going heavy, you need to go smart. However heavy you pack your ruck, you will need resupply in the end. You are not a US SF team (or any other SF unit) behind enemy lines. Some groups may be able to operate like that, but then they have no need to read this blog, right? You need to go smart and organize your resupply. I mean, you only have to look at historical examples such as the Chindits in Burma, one of the precursors to special operations forces, to see that they suffered from disease and starvation in the jungle. They used pack mules.
Above: Chindits in Burma, WWII
3) So, there is only so much gear that you will be able to fit on your body and remain effective. Even if you go huge and heavy, you still need resupply at some point. So plan for it, get smart, use ATVs/trucks/horses/mules/boats or whatever.
4) One the of the biggest realizations/recommendations on my classes is more PT. But for many, this comes at a junction of PT vs. Age. The ‘military aged male’ average age of the Patriot Movement is a little older! I mean, I have been successful at all sorts of high level selection courses in my time. Parachute Regiment selection, UKSF selection, really hard core classes. I can tell you about them for interest, as I have done on this blog, but for me to tell you that that is the level you have to operate at is pointless.
So I urge you, go read Mosby’s posts and learn what you can from them in terms of what gear he carries. What he is saying is not BS. But I implore you to apply judgment and perspective to it in terms of what you select to carry. I have attempted to do that with my numerous gear posts and advice on realistic PT etc. Don’t be an SF acolyte. If you injure yourself, blow out a knee or a back (break a hand!) then you are screwed come SHTF.
My training and advice is not about ego. Ego is one of the biggest problems in the movement to train the armed civilian in real tactics.
I strongly disagree with the relevance and intent of this quote from Mosby’s article:
“Ultimately, that is the difference between the SF, LRS, and other UW worlds and anyone else doing a conventional mission When you’re asshole deep in alligators, and your only hope of effective escape is self-extraction, you’d damned well better be able to carry everything your team needs, or you’re going to end up in a really bad spot……Ultimately, THIS is the difference between the paradigm of conventional force traditional light-infantry and the SF/LRS/UW paradigm, and why the UW paradigm is so important from the prepper standpoint: whether you’re at the 82nd Airborne Division, the 101st Airborne (AASLT), the 25th Infantry Division, or the 1st MarDiv, while you might be on your own for a little while, you KNOW that at some point, SOMEONE is trying to come get your ass and bring you more shit…and they’re not so far away that it is ever going to seem impossible……Drop an SF ODA 500 miles behind the Iron Curtain, or a SOG team on the wrong side of the Cambodian border, or dump a few ODAs into Afghanistan before any other US forces are even spooled up to go in-country…if shit gets hinky, they KNOW they are on their own, and for the foreseeable future, anything they need, they’d better be carrying with them, have in a pre-established cache location, or be able to beg, steal, or borrow from the local population…..We’re all light-infantry when we’re on the two-way range. Until we get to the range though, there are entirely different mindsets at work.”
Because the answer to the prepper/SHTF situation is not to simply carry huge amounts more of gear – “because I can and used to and all you fuckers are not up to the task…etc. .” It is to carry a realistic sustainment load and operate in a way that you can resupply yourself. Get smart, not go heavy. Yes, the gear that I wear is heavier than a tacticool guy wears on the square range, but I’m also not in a competition to carry the mostest. I mean, the criticism of more conventional units is BS. For example, even when serving in a more ‘conventional force’ Parachute Regiment unit, we trained and conducted long range missions, the role included parachuting in behind enemy lines with little chance of resupply or relief. That is partly why I carry a decent sustainment load in my gear. But that rig pictured from the “Team Sergeant” is all sorts of impractical for light infantry work – you know the bit where it counts on the “two-way” range! Fire and movement? Not so much. Too much weight!
Above: “Mr. FAGS” LBE/Aviator Vest
Whatever your prior service, or pure civilian background, if you are reading my site/blog you are doing so to get better at tactics and survival come SHTF. The big news flash is that no-one, whatever their background in the military, is getting resupply come SHTF, and thus you need to get smart and organize a method yourself. Advising people to lumber about overloaded is not the answer.
To put a little perspective on the whole “we were awesome look how much gear we carry” thing, I am going to re-post a video below. I have mentioned before the British assault vest. You can see these retired “old school” SAS guys wearing them in the video, either that or a battle belt. I have one of these vests. These can fit a full sustainment load around the upper body, and to get even more gear on your person you can wear a belt with some additional pouches around the butt area, as shown in the video. The video includes a full breakdown of gear for a 28 day operation (!) Is that going to work for you?
Above: Assault Vest
From 4:00 on the gear, and again in detail at 30:00. They are not taking body armor. It’s a covert OP mission, with a huge amount to carry. Assessment: bin it! Could they have done with it on the E&E? Yes, but everything is a compromise, right?
If you are interested in going heavy on the gear, you may also want to check out this very useful post by JC Dodge, showing the use of a tactical vest and battle belt combination. Be warned, all up it weights 70lbs!: The Fighting/Survival Load for Mounted and Dismounted Operations
Discuss on the forum article HERE
Live Hard.
Die Free.
Max
Max has got it right. We are no longer 20 something who can get by on 4 hrs a night and go out slugging and swinging the next day for days on end. Survival is mobility folks. Always has been and always will be. Decerning about what kit is required for the specific operation at hand is everything. Needs vs. wants is everything. When you look at it correctly, what is in your head and heart will carry the fight. Add those few extras to ensure completion of mission safely and successsfully. Fuel (food), warmth and dryness, hydration, optics, nav gear, shelter, hygiene and health, weapon/ammo, cam/concealment. Mobility is a must.
Interesting. I thought that post was helpful and didn’t get any ego off it.
I’ve been reading the hell out of your stuff and Mosby’s after recently stumbling across both your sites. Both you guys are offering a ton of jump start info for those of us lower on the learning curve (cliff?). Along with plenty of reminders that these are what works for you, the reader will be different, and the only way we’ll know is to get off the internet and try it. Part of that is outlining bonna fides so there’s a reference frame around why it works for you. Since our frames are different (not SF, not UK, selection is selection and not SHTF, etc.) it all came together pretty clearly for me.
Thanks for the writings, especially the “why” that explains the gear lists.
I have to agree, I felt as if he was merely using the “good old days” as an explanation for why he does things the way he does them, rather than out of ego or looking for street cred. Much like when Max V. mentiona his time in the British armed forces. Both John M. and Max V. have an incredible amount of real world training, and it does a disservice to the patriots that they teach to have them criticizing each other over history and their way of speech.
Besides, you both love your tea.
I don’t agree. I didn’t say what I did lightly, but I feel strongly that it had to be said. I have a long history of posting in order to get the reality of gear and thee sort of SHTF operations across. Pushing the line that was pushed in those posts is counter to that. Off message. That is why.
If it needs saying, I’ll say it.
And BTW, it’s not a playground tiff that needs mediating. Big boys rules. BS will be called.
“…and your only hope of effective escape is self-extraction, you’d damned well better be able to carry everything your team needs, or you’re going to end up in a really bad spot”,
“…if shit gets hinky, they KNOW they are on their own, and for the foreseeable future, anything they need, they’d better be carrying with them, have in a pre-established cache location, or be able to beg, steal, or borrow from the local population…”
My reading comprehension must be a tad weak, because I thought what he was recommending was that since guerrillas can’t expect to get a supply drop or to be picked up by an armored column, it’s appropriate to make do with what you can carry or cache earlier.
Taken as a whole, the point he is making is that only SF can deal with this situation. And mostly by carrying huge amounts of gear, although I concede there is mention of a cache there, which is the only mention in any of the articles.
It’s the drive of the overall point that is the issue. If you wish to continue to argue, do better
I guess I just took something different away, is all. And that was what you were worried about right?
So… I’m not sure if you’ve mentioned, but what sort of tea do you drink in class and at home?
PG Tips
I hate to see the pissin match between patriots. With that being said I have to lean more towards Max with the no ego. This can be tough with a bunch of type A personalities thrown into the same phone booth. What will happen is hopefully thinking men will wade through the rhetoric, sort through the facts, and find what works best for them in their situations and AO’s. When you have your name and a cool logo at the top of the page there are going to be those that want to emulate you down to the size and brand of your underwear, do you gut your 550 shoelaces, do you use Dial or Irish Spring. It’s the nature of leadership.
I sincerely hope there is no pissing match. I don’t want to be involved in one, which is why I considered saying anything, but felt it was important to be said. I believe I said in the post that Mosby is an excellent instructor, and I have respect for him for that, and for what he does. His gear set up is real, and the tales are real, no BS. It’s what people will take away from it that concerns me.
Hate to see one. Not saying your in one. We all have to hang together, or….
Roadkill is correct in that many of us hate to see pissin matches. Human nature, however, demands it. How else are those with no military training going to learn? You can’t sand a board with silk, you gotta have some grit to it.
Not mediating, nor medicating. Well I have had a couple of rums!
My read; Max’s posts are not about Max. They are about us.
Memento Mori
Joe
I am thankful that there are Rambo SF’ers out there deep behind regime lines and… wait a fuckin’ minute, I live here, behind regime lines.If SHTF, everywhere will be ‘in country’ and we’ll be cong.It will be America’s new theme park, “Guerrilla Land”, and like the farmers, blacksmiths and shopkeepers at Lexington Green, when the hammer falls, many will stand.
Myself, I’m an old fuck, I trudged the flora of sunny Southeast Asia as an 11B w/ the 101st.BFD right? I was 127 pounds wet and swear to God I carried the same fuckin’ weight until, Yeah!, we got resupplied once a week. I signed for that shit. It doesn’t matter if you’re Sneaky Pete, Ricky Recon or just a grunt, we ALL throw the dice and hope we can pick them up to do it again the next day. ‘alea iacta est’.
Both you and Mosby know your shit, no doubt about that, but like you said,”big boy rules”.In the end of all doctrines, if you’re smart and an individual, “you take the best and fuck the rest,you die first, we split your gear” Simple.
First site I check in the AM and the last I check in the PM, great blog and tremendous gear info.
Drive On
Well said Chris, Thanks for your service.
I carry what I carry. I arrange my gear how I see fit and based on what I expect the game to be. I take into consideration my limitations in the process. While I may read what someone else thinks I should have I just smile.
Roger that.
How are the legs?
Considering what you did to them, fine.
Found a good, long, steep bridge over the Intracoastal in Lake Worth to work out on.
As soon as I make some corrections I’ll be back up to see ya.
I honestly didn’t take his article that way, although I can see why you could.
I think Mosby teaches through a lot of hyperbole; he sets a high standard, maybe a tad too high in your eyes, but I honestly think he knows it’s pretty unobtainable by most; it’s setting the bar high to try and make each guy stretch as far as he can.
Yes he does some chest-beating, but I really don’t pay any attention to it, I just try and learn what I can from him, the same way I do from you.
Perhaps a little background on SF. The MACV-SOG bubbas were, and still are, legends in the SF community. Their T,T,&P’s (although they didn’t call them that back then) are still very influential within the community. One of the things they did was hump enormous loads through the jungle. When you’re on a small team literally in the enemy’s backyard, you need a shit-load of ammo and high explosives to hold off the gooks until your ride arrives. This thinking still colors the way lots of people approach the subject.
No I don’t think the US military knows it all, and I don’t think Mosby really thinks that either. But he knows what he knows, and is not shy about it.
I also happen to think that the Brits are some of the best soldiers on the planet. and they are not shy about that either. When my unit cross-trained with the Royal Green Jackets, their officers were not shy at all about telling me my plans were shit. Or shite.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is that Mosby has his ways, and you have yours. I think that he is right, in that we need to be in better shape to hump more shit, cuz we’re probably gonna need it. And I think you’re right, in that his standard is probably unobtainable for the average guy, especially the older guys, so perhaps we need to figure out how that’s gonna actually work on crunch day.
If guys are young enough and can train up to his standards, more power to ’em. We’re gonna need them. But if guys can’t, then we need to be realistic about it, and plan accordingly. Including lighter load outs. And lots of cache sites.
But let’s face reality. If you aren’t as in good a shape as your enemy, your chances of being wounded or killed are higher. Accept it, and drive on.
Honestly, I’m a little disappointed, because you also miss the point. It’s nothing to do with inter-unit or Brit/Yank rivalries. I am also aware of the SOG humping you refer to. My history is good. It isn’t about any of that. In fact, you mention the chest thumping. That is part of the problem. He is a talented instructor with a lot of influence. Many are listening simply due to the ‘SF brand.’
For me, this isn’t about me vs. Mosby, and who pisses further. That would be a pissing contest, chest beating, and not what I am about.
I called it out as BS because it is not what people need. It also straight up says that only those with his specific SF/UW heritage have the right mindset to understand what is needed for prepper/SHTF operations.
That is a different thing than doing a post on say, an interest post on how hard core SOG was humping in the jungle, or how hard core Mosby was humping in SF. I have actually done similar interest posts, not expecting people to emulate them. The point is here that his article states his way (his SF way) as the only way and the only right mindset. He claims primacy, and that others don’t have that. And what he recommends is harmful to those in the real world trying to emulate it. What others don’t have that? Other trainers in the community, such as myself or JC Dodge I wonder? Too much ego involved in that by far.
It’s not the whole post in gear that is the problem, that part is mainly helpful, it’s the ego part of it that I took issue with.
Max,
I don’t think that your response to Mosby’s position on gear is fair or balanced.
Mosby’s position on gear is, in its essence: you need to carry what you need to carry to survive/complete your mission. Sometimes, your load is going to suck. But don’t leave something behind that you — literally — can’t live with out.
If you look at his gear recommendations from about a year ago, you’ll see that he recommended battle belts in conjunction with enough ruck to get everything you need to where you need it to get to. His loadout considerations at the time allowed for heavier systems than the load limit that you recommended at that same time, specifically because his AO (NW mountains) has a different set of environmental concerns.
He got a new pack system late fall last year, and it presented a more efficient carriage opportunity, but at the cost of the functionality of his battle belt. As I noted in the ‘Heresy’ post, wearing a modern backpack the way it is designed (load bearing to the hips) is a remarkably more comfortable and energy efficient way to carry load that balancing a pack on the back of belt pouches (the former mitigates the lateral slop and bounce of the later). If you must carry a significant load, on foot, over distance it is not unreasonable to prioritize distributing that load efficiently (to the hips) and conceding some layered sustainment, particularly if you believe this efficiency will make you more ready to prosecute the fight if it comes your way.
As a reader of both blogs, I had personally noted that simultaneous to his system evolved in his AO, you made a number of posts here wherein you acknowledged that the environmental demands of winter action were causing you to add weight to your load out…
My point in bringing this up is to suggest that no one is proposing that humping unnecessary weight is desirable. Instead everyone acknowledges that–some way or another–you’ve got to carry the necessary weight. Because it’s necessary.
Finally, I’m calling you out on your callout: Mosby is a unique character, but he has never once suggested that he is someone special. He’s publicly stated that there are much better people alive today to be offering this training than himself. He’s said that in most cases, the best thing an individual could do for training is find any recently discharged infantryman in their area, and learn the basic drills from them. His stated position isn’t that he’s superior to any other trainers… he’s just the one hanging his ass on the line and making himself available to the general public via the internet.
Just like you.
His approach may be a bit different than yours, and his reasoning and attitude might be a bit different than yours. But just like you, he’s out humping his own gear with a bunch of once-strangers (leaving his family at home) trying to find solutions, and make a difference.
So play nice.
(I really wish this was just play…)
I don’t recall the various evolutions you mention about my gear or load. Again, you miss the point. My comments were not at all about specific gear or rucks. I’m not upset about what type of ruck he may or may not use. That would be silly. You need to re read my post. It’s the drive of the article that I don’t like. It’s pretty clearly stated in his article.
My comments are not about specific gear. I’m bigger than that. It’s about philosophy and what people will take away. The point is that he is influential and people listen. If they feel that the standard is huge weight, and if they can’t do that they are failing, the that is a disservice.
That is my point.
Get smart.
Edit: there is something else you need to consider. You have trained with Mosby. From all I hear he is far more humble and pleasant in person than he comes across on the blog. The blog is all fucking and chest beating. Consider what the perspective is of those that haven’t met him, and only get the chest beating. How many busted knees and backs from unsuitable PT attempts?
Yeah he is playing drill sgt a little here with all his bluster. My perspective is everyone knows that, but I get what you’re saying. If someone gets injured taking his advice, then that’s a disservice to the community. But, if that same guy hardens the fuck up because of it, and that saves his ass later…
This is kinda ironic because my experience has been that Her Majesty’s troops are as hard as wood pecker lips, and US troops can be kinda soft. When my unit cross-trained with the Royal Green Jackets, we sent our best company over to the UK, where they linked up with the Regt. Being a National Guard unit of good ol boys, a lot were fat and out of shape. Which mattered not one wit to the Brits. Our guys were expected to keep up with whatever their guys did in training. They tabbed their asses off and suffered tremendously. Nobody cut them an inch of slack (or in this case a cm).
The Coy. that came over our way on the exchange was exceptional. These guys were reservists, but still the standard of training was very high. I think it came as a shock to them how comfortable we lived in the field. I honestly think a lot of them thought we were a bunch of “puftees” (did I spell that right?). Their officers embarrassed the hell out of our C.O. with their blunt written assessments of our failings. While we went out of our way to insure they were comfortable, with hot chow, and good training including helo insertions, and live fire exercises, they went out of their way to thrash our fat boys and criticize our ways.
I do not harbor any resentment towards them for this. I believed they happened to be right. We were too soft, and needed a wake up call. I took it as a deserved beating, and decided to learn from it.
So I write this with a bemused smile because a US FAG (Former Action Guy) is telling us we must harden the fuck up, whilst a UK FAG is telling us to be careful about that. You just gotta love the irony. Well, at least I do.
As an aside, I think guys realize US special forces don’t have a lock on all things tactical. Despite anybody’s claims. They’re smarter than that (I hope).
So putting your disagreement with Mosby’s writings aside for a minute, let’s take a look at the real issue here. Just what exactly do we really need to be carrying?
Perhaps we need to consider who is the insurgent here, and who is the counter-insurgent. Or actually who has the “home court” advantage, as it were. In the classic SF mission, our guys have always been the outsider, coming into the AO with everything they need to conduct operations. In our case, we are operating on our own turf, so why not take advantage of that (for once) and operate with lighter loads? All that extra E&E kit our guys always wore was for getting out of dodge if everything went to shit. Which usually meant an extended journey through denied territory, probably without any help. If this time around, we are operating on our home ground. Shouldn’t this change the way we approach the subject? I can only hope that there will be those willing to harbor and feed us when we need to disappear for awhile, and that supplies will be readily available at the local level.
In closing, I am reminded of the local guerilla in Afghanistan, with nothing more than an AK with the odd spare mag in his man-jammies, scampering over the hill, while our erstwhile SF hero pants and wheezes, over-loaded with 75+ lbs of shit. This is the issue here. If WE are the locals this time around, shouldn’t that change how we approach these things?
Fuckin’ bingo, numbnuts!
BTW: It’s ‘poofters.’
I used to be the most terrible elitist stormtrooper asshole. If you didn’t cut it, you were shit. As Para Reg, all your Royal Green Jackets would have been ‘crap hats’. Oh the error of my ways – but I’m 40 years old now, and a trainer of the armed civilian, and I realize that. I’m enlightened. It’s part of the brainwashing of elite units. You know the pain you had to go through to get there, and everyone else is shite by comparison. You have Royal Marines hating Paras and vice versa, even though the commando course and pre-parachute selection are different but equivalent (yes, I said it!)
My life was rucking (tabbing). I am very much familiar with operating with very heavy loads and carrying everything that needed to be carried. I could tell everyone that they are shit and not up to it, but why?
As an example, it used to be that Para Reg recruits were abused to such a degree (70’s/80’s etc.), to make them quit, that when they did make it in, they were hard as nails. Those are the guys that went into the enemy minefields, machine guns, and artillery fire on Mt. Longdon, for example. Hard as nails. Brutal. And that was after rucking over the Falklands with no resupply! But when I became a trainer at the Para Depot, things were changing. The focus became to lead people through training, encourage them, without dropping standards. ‘Encourage’ them, yes sometimes brutally, to meet the standard. The Paras that are in Helmand now are no less hard or tough, but they are technically better, due to better training standards. I heard a quote from a Company Sergeant Major about how his only memory of basic training was running through a forestry block in Wales carrying a 6 foot folding table!
And that is what I am about. Adjusting training to suit the raw material, and encouraging that student to be as best they can. How would my classes go if I just thrashed people up and down hills? Now, I’m not saying Mosby does that, by all accounts he is an excellent trainer, so crack on. It is how posts like this come across. If a guy reads it and thinks “shit there is no way I can do that” then we just lost a guy who could be trained up to be a fighter. The green eyed boys will still be out there rucking and running up hills, so I don’t worry about encouraging them. It’s about training those who would be put off by the chest thumping. People listen to Mosby, he has the SF name, and if he is so personable in real life, how about cutting some slack on the blog?
A while back, I did a post on realistic rucking. What you don’t know is that was partially a response to some info Mosby had put up about rucking. I considered it unrealistic, even by my previous Brit Army standards. Not that it couldn’t be done, but that it set the wrong bar. Yes, raise standards but don’t break yourself doing it.
I was pretty much like that too. Big mistake. Arrogance has a way of catching up to you eventually. Also an unrealistic assessment of actual capabilities.
Being at the end of your tether a few times should teach you something. Plus age itself.
I never knew anyone who could maintain awareness for very long under a heavy ruck. I don’t care how much of a ruck monster you were. After a while you are head down and enduring only.
UW is only one of the five missions of SF. And some Teams I have seen treated the locals like garbage. Anecdotally I believe this is common. That isn’t the way to UW success.
I also think that the ranger mentality has taken SF over, which is something we saw and something the older guys always complained about.
The why fight when you can run, why run when you can walk and why walk when you can hide idea doesn’t fit well with the movies.
But people respond to hype and hollywood notions.
Your attempt at instilling some sanity is good.
No criticism intended for anyone. The credit always belongs to those who put themselves out there.
**Disclaimer**
I read both blogs, but have not been to a class by either instructor. You all will know me as a civilian as well.
Diz, the irony you suggest is amusing. But you yourself said that the Brits pulled no punches/were not afraid to make constructive criticism. That behavior is consistent with Max’s constructive criticism (and it IS constructive). Do we really do any favors by lettings things slide that we think are BS for a particular reason.
Max, your suggestion to read Mosby’s article with caution, and sift through ego, is sound. But then again, that’s a two sided coin because the same could be said about your blog (or anyone’s blog for that matter). I get it (and I hope others do as well), that you are asking people to not succumb to the fanboy attitude and to think and discern for ourselves. Mosby’s blog does have ego to it, sure. For me, it’s easy to get past but others mileage may vary. If people are reading both of the blogs, I think you should rest assured that they are competent and intelligent enough to dig through the muck and find what works. In fact, I really relish the fact that there are disagreements because it reinforces the fact that people need to get off their asses and figure stuff out for themselves. There’s no boss or head honcho, only old salts with experience and knowledge to share.
I think your words of caution have been heard. You stirred the puddin’, of course, but on the same hand you’ve also started a conversation about something important.
In the end, the responsibility is OURS (not yours or Mosby’s) for what we do and how we get ready. You guys can teach us, but the responsibility is on us to make it work.
I wish everyone were as reasonable as you, MQ, and took the time to discern the real meaning of the words, not just seeing what you want to see, and fighting because you want to fight, going off at the hip. Good stuff. This again reinforces my faith in the quality of my readership, which is one of the reasons I wanted to create the forum, to allow you all a voice.
Well, I’m just trying to point out that there is vast knowledge that both of you guys are offering. However, I can tell you right now that this is going to get blown out of proportion because of miscommunication. I hope I’m wrong. But it’s been my experience that miscommunication is the foundation is most vapid disagreements.
Remember, there are three (3) parts to any message:
1) What you THINK you said.
2) What you ACTUALLY you said.
3) What the other person THINKS they heard.
One or more of these gets screwed up and hilarity (read insanity) ensues.
Reasonable? We’re all on the same side so that’s mandatory. Can we afford to be any other way?
Diz, this quote from your post above mirrors a thought I had this morning regarding the UW paradigm and how it applies to us as armed citizens:
“Perhaps we need to consider who is the insurgent here, and who is the counter-insurgent. Or actually who has the “home court” advantage, as it were. In the classic SF mission, our guys have always been the outsider, coming into the AO with everything they need to conduct operations. In our case, we are operating on our own turf, so why not take advantage of that (for once) and operate with lighter loads? All that extra E&E kit our guys always wore was for getting out of dodge if everything went to shit. Which usually meant an extended journey through denied territory, probably without any help. If this time around, we are operating on our home ground. Shouldn’t this change the way we approach the subject? I can only hope that there will be those willing to harbor and feed us when we need to disappear for awhile, and that supplies will be readily available at the local level.”
Brother, you hit the nail on the head with that one.
Finally in the analysis of insurgent operations someone has brought up the distinct difference between light infantry, with the backing of The Military Industrial Complex, and those who lack such support systems. Diz brings up the example of the fighter who has little more than enough gear to execute an ambush, do damage, and get the fuck out. Now certainly such forces would gain flexibility and effectiveness if able to train and equip for SUT, but this type of approach is worthy of learning from. With the recent conflicts in The Middle East one of the tactics that really denied coalition forces meaningful victories were fighters that would engage than abandon the fight once coalition forces were pressing the assault. By the time coalition forces had taken the insurgent fighting positions they would find piles of weapons and clothing, the fighters themselves seemed to have vanished. But of courses we all know they did not vanish, but had melded into the greater population.
Such tactics are in support of the strategy of insurgency, as strategy of attrition, one that is fulfilled primarily by resistance forces continuing the fight. Such a strategy requires conventional forces to engage in some degree of heavy handed response upon the greater population in the hunt of insurgents, which intern generates resentment of the forces executing the heavy handed response, ultimately fueling future insurgent operations. Where some insurgencies fuck up is when they allow their emotions to get the best of them and start attacking general civilian population, which besides being immoral, undermines resistance support. The goal of insurgency warfare is ultimately the often cited battle for “Hearts and Minds”, and in this battle history clearly shows the insurgent has the clear advantage. Until such a battle in won the critical mass needed for meaningful victory will be fleeting.
Shit this is becoming comical. A comment was made, not a criticism, and BANG!, too many people with too much time or ass on their hands. I had thought that training was about TRAINING, AND.. that local training was for the machinist, bookkeeper, farmer dudes to help prepare for interesting times ahead. These training issues, I surmise, are not for ex-SEAL’s,ex-SFer’s, blah,blah, but for those who want to know and don’t know where to go.Military doctrines are fine. They help in determining whether an instructor or teacher is worth a shit or not. In the end, their wake up message should be “stay the fuck alive”, and what I teach will HELP you.
Learn it, and cull it.
Its about you, your buddy,team and family.
What you carry, just isn’t on your back,its also in your head.
Life is good. It ain’t fair, but its good.
Big boy rules. FAIR=DEAD
Drive On
Chris: what are you referring to?
Max
I’ve followed your site from day one. Got and read your books. Everything I have gathered from all this points to the fact you are a quality teacher and instructor. Your books I have worn out and yellow lined.
Your background is reflected in your books,blog and your student AAR’s and the fact that you take shit/criticism without rebuke.I’m a fan. An older fan,but a fan.It makes me feel good to know that you are helping people to understand this politically incorrect field of knowledge.
FAIR=DEAD. A Cooper thing.
Play fair and you lose.Sun Tzu would laugh at Fair in War.
My thought, reference here is- you know what you know, and you teach what you know. You don’t teach Bullshit.
One day, I’ll send my kids to you.
Drive On
I believe the point of contention being made here is the dogmatic presentation of “this is the only way to do it.” A lot of folks out there have never been in the military. They may have no idea how to ruck, tab, hump, etc. So to them when they read that with the SF credentials, to them it is as good as the word of God. Now factor in age, physical limitations, and general lack of PT and you have a recipe for disaster. Not only that but some might read that and say “I can’t do that so im not going to bother with any of it.” They essentially take a defeatist mind set and either dont do anything or take the retreat sniper route and plan on dying on the hill with gun in hand. Maybe or maybe not. Each individual is different. The point being is people need to know there are multiple ways to accomplish the mission. That they can tailor their gear to their abilities and still be effective.
Online with what Diz said is that we need to be thinking like a guerilla, insurgent, resistance fighter, rebel alliance, etc. When the Empire attacks that is what we all will be. One of the key components of that style of warfare is speed and mobility. Manevuer Warfare. At both the large scale down to the squad scale. Lighter and faster is our strenghth and response to superior numbers, support, and tech.
Now with all that said lets think about the freedom loving VA boy who thinks 150 lb load is the way to go and be SF or SAS or what the fuck ever. Heres the downsides. May ruin himself training before the fight starts. May realize he just cant do that and becomes disheartened. The first live fire two way range he gets in,he is too over encumbered to move fast and effective. He either dumps his gear with no hope to get it back or way to order more from Amazon. Or he tried to suck it up and fight anyway and gets cut down. All those options suck. I believe the point Max was making is that there more options and the SF way may be a goal to strive to but not the only answer. The issue lies when something is presented in such a way that it appears that it is the only way. Some folks, especially those with no experience, may take that as “the way” and end up hurting themselves or worse.
Excellent, who would have thought you could write without crayons?
Thank you, you made the point better than I did.
I tried but it the phone screen wouldnt take them. As a disclaimer i want to say in no way was I implying civies or people without training were inferior or less mentally capable. Its just that if you dont know you; dont know. Like fixing a car if you have never even used a ratchet. As for me i can hump all me gear totally SFed out at about 125 lbs. PC included. Will i ever do that when shtf? Fuck no! Id rather be in loin cloth and a light coat of CLP. Speed and longevity wins. And you all are welcome for thay mental image. :D
Yes, I can honestly say, that although I don’t know the exact circumstances of how we would end up fighting after a collapse, I don’t have any intent to do anything other than wear my battle belt or FLC, and carry my patrol pack. For many ‘tacticooler’ types, that is way too much gear, but vs. a full ruck and all the gear, I can move and fight in the load. Some of that is PT, not that I do much of it in relative terms any more. The rest is pure bad attitude. Why? Because fuck them, that’s why!
If I had to carry a ruck in, I would. Perhaps for winter or longer term ops. I would prefer to go smart and move any necessary gear by other means. If I can use mobility assets, both to move supplies/caches and also to get me closer to the objective, I will. ATVs/trucks/horses/mules/boats etc.
In warmer times, you don’t need ‘much.’ Dirty patrol. travel light/freeze at night. But remember, that still means a significant amount of gear for the non-initiated. Maybe up to 60-80lbs around your body of ammo, water, food, gear plus weapon. If you try to carry the kitchen sink as well, you will be like a turtle on its back come contact time.
I will also choose to carry additional weight like plates and a helmet.
C’mon, Max. Try thinking outside the box for a change.
Two words:
Killer. Bees.
This from a reader via email:
“The thing that really made SF ops really effective and viable was the jeep. David Stirling who had been cadging lifts with the LRDG saw the potential of this US vehicle immediately. So did Popski. Small, light, 4×4, carrying people, weapons, ammo, rations, water and petrol. Low profile with disproportionate firepower. Used in N Africa, Yugoslavia, Italy, France….a tactical vehicle, no cab, no comforts, small, low.
Also, as you say, mules and ponies.”
I think its also worth mentioning that Mr. FAG wrong a comment following Mosby’s last blog. Worth reading because he specifically mentions BALANCE and that more gear does not necessarily = better.
http://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/you-want-me-to-carry-what-part-two/#comments
Read it…very first comment on the article. Nuff said!
Point taken Max. I am a very different man in my 50’s than I was as a young man in my 20’s. I’m also a slimy civilian and not a hard-dick Marine (have a visual yourself skittlee, or the artist formerly known as skittles). My training style is much similar to your own. And I forget that guys without a mil-spec background can see these things much differently than the hoary vets. You are quite correct in that guys without any military experience need a different approach.
The take-away on this, we need to HTFU, but be smart in how we approach it. We also need to think real hard on what we actually need to carry, not emulate what other units did, just because they were bad-asses.
Well said Diz. You old timers usually have some insight :D and yes my man thumbs suck and i cant type for shite on this phone. My first post had to be proof read 3 times. Errors marked out in crayon.
I’d like to amplify points made by Diz and MQ, but in a different way. In the military, you can plan your training based on the primary and secondary mission your unit has – that drives the training in order to perform those missions. In our world, what you think your mission is influences what you think you need to train to do.
If you know you are going to Afghanistan, you train counterinsurgency as a primary mission, Iraq was some CI, but also stability, in the days of NATO vs. Warsaw Pact, force on force was the training driver. We face the biggest challenge of all – the mission can run the gamut from survival of economic collapse, to various forms of ethnic and cultural oriented conflict, all the war to civil war / rebellion scenarios. And we have next to nothing in the way of resources to plan and conduct training for those scenarios.
Some trainers and groups are blessed with a crystal ball that has much more clarity than mine, so they know exactly what is going to happen, and can therefore concentrate training on that particular mission. Just to clarify my point – if your mind has already focused on a particular scenario, this drives your training approach, and thus SOPs including gear needs and logistical approach.
One idea is to look at as many scenarios as possible and focus the training on what unit tasks are common to all. Very likely you will conclude that there is a need to establish and defend an operating base, shoot bad people, conduct fire and maneuver, use some communications devices, patrol, establish OP/LPs, conduct an ambush (planned and hasty), implement an obstacle plan, etc.
To get back on topic, gear loadout should be mission specific, maybe that is why the M in MOLLE gear stands for Modular. As the saying goes – there is no single approved solution to a tactical problem, but some solutions are clearly better than others.
I think this is important, and underlines something that I have been trying to get across for a long time, but which many former military are not hearing/getting: that we need the flexibility to adapt doctrine/FMs to what we expect, for a post-collapse situation. That is why I wrote Contact. I hate to see FM’s and doctrine simply regurgitated, except when it specifically applies. But everything I do, I try and evolve things I learned in the military to a civilian fighter environment.
I don’t know exactly how it will pan out, and what missions/situation will be experienced. So, I can teach good solid basics, and adapt things like defense to defense of a family location, or a retreat base, or similar. That is partly why I got annoyed at the SF stuff. Even classic SF UW stuff does not translate directly over to a collapse environment, where you are not an external actor, but you ARE IN IT, as well as your family, just like everyone else. What good does carrying a huge ruck do you then, except for specific missions?
My mission is to adapt all this to use by armed civilians.
I read both you Max, and Mosby. I have to say that when I read the latest from Mosby I didn’t get the SF way is the only way feeling out of it at all. I also didn’t get that “this is how you have to do it”. “Exactly like this, the only way”, you know.
Mosby is probably the most strongly opinionated person I have ever met. That doesn’t mean in the end it’s his way or the highway though. Well, maybe, but it depends on what we are talking about. I think when it comes down to it, he wants the best out of you, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to kill you to get you there. Hopefully not, anyways… lol
I also think there will always be a certain amount of pride and ego within a man. A certain amount of competition as well. I see it in both of you. You are both good at what you do. You both have a different approach and ideas as well. Thank you for that. You are both excellent.
You do have to admit Mosby was trained to train others to fight. That’s what SF does. He knows what he’s doing. It’s not his first rodeo. I’m also sure Mosby has taught a few indigenous folk the proper use of the “F” word. A real humanitarian he is. He has his own unique way. As do you, and we are grateful.
The fact is, he has his own way. Even another guy with a very similar background will have an even different way. Same goes for you man. Keep up the good work. You’re doing a great service. Keep the great books coming. You have some real talent there. I hope to make it to your training some day. I really look forward to that.
Just to add to the conversation, I personally don’t get an impression of ego from Mosby [or Max].
I think there are very nuanced differences/relationships between things like “ego”, “opinion”, “my experience talking”, “biases”, “confidence”, “elitism”, etc.
I thought Mosby did a good job of logically and factually supporting his decisions. I was able to understand his processes, and take some new/refresher points.
Where the waters seem to get muddy is “how to apply military skills and experience to a SHTF environment”. Everyone had a different way they distill the military way of doing things into a different paradigm suitable for the “civilian SHTF market”. The varying capabilities and opinions of those doing that task, combined with the uncertainty of just what a SHTF environment will look like and what the prioritization of tasks will be, ends up with varying presentations on the matter.
For me, the only thing that really sets off warning bells is if I see a very strong, specialized or unsupported position on something. For example, the guy who says “The only worthy self defense pistol is .45”, or “A battle belt is the wrong way to carry your gear.” As long as I can understand the decision making process for why they chose, and they are portraying that there were choices involved, I’m happy. For example, “I hate plate carriers, because it’s horribly awkward to reach pouches high up behind your armpits”, is fine with me.
One other thing I’d like to point out, the processes through which people learn are “backwards”. We always hear saying like “Professionals talk software, amateurs talk hardware.”
The saying implies that to become a professional, you need to stop talking hardware, and start talking software. But how does that happen, in a “chicken or the egg” type way?
When I explain something, like setting up your gear, to someone, I usually start by listing “constraints”, or goals they are trying to achieve. This is the “software”, and is derived from experience or training. However, just telling someone “You need to carry enough ammunition for the fight.” doesn’t give a less-experienced person the info they need. Is it 2 mags, 20, or 200?
So I end up giving them the constraint, such as “You need to carry enough ammunition for the fight.”, then following it up with some basic starting point that is “hardware”, like “Start with 6-10 mags.”
Only after a lot of personal experience, and/or training, does the “software” come intuitively to them. It’s a combination of the constraints or rules-of-thumb they follow, their experience and training, what has worked/failed for them in the past, and some personal opinion thrown in for good measure. Needing to show less-experienced people the “hardware”, inevitably means you’re going to come in conflict with some of the “software”, until they catch on.
So the fact becomes that anything you teach is an opinion, based on more/less supporting data, combined with your own values, constraints, and perceived mission. Opinions will differ, and they all include some “ego”, because that is exactly your own addition to it. There may be several/many opinions that are in fact correct solutions to the problem, too (“many ways to skin that cat”).
“Gear” is shoe shopping for men. I honestly don’t get too wrapped up into it. Mosby added some drama, and my first response even before I read this critique was to remind every reader at his blog that his best camoflauge solution at one time was a Hello Kitty bandaid on the mag well of his AR. But you know what I recalled that most every swinging dick has a tender ego and instead of taking some air out of his sails I just flipped the page and went about life.
As for Mosby’s PT recs and his concept of us old men being full time Gs, I have used discernment of the finest type and concluded, OK sure.
PT is a huge factor, but like everyone has been saying you just have to deal with where you are at in life. The lumps and bumps along the way do affect the way you will be able to perform but don’t use it as a crutch to do nothing. I’m 57 and can’t say I’m in the best shape of my life, but I’m in better shape now than I was in my forties. Go to a sight called rosstraining.com and check out his never gymless stuff. It’s hard core but you can still do the stuff from ages 18 to 90. He has some inspirational vids of older athletes that would put many of us to shame. Age is no excuse should be our PT motto.
Great, so I worked on my beard and my 1000 yard steely eyed killer stare for no reason? Thanks for shattering my world. No but seriously as someone who goes through intensive physiotherapy once a year in order to maintain mobility, don’t push yourself and bust yourself up. Yeah PT is super fucking important but you ain’t the same gut eating 20 year old full of piss and vinegar. Remember that.
Not dissin you FS. We aint as young and full of piss and vinegar as we used to be. We can only do the best we can with whatever gas we have left in the tank. As for the beard and steely eyes, the chicks still dig that stuff. I used to have the stare but due to age and eyesight I think I’m down to 240 yards.
In carriage of gear I’ve begun to think about alternate gear packing methods beyond the typical use of the internal combustion engine and Equines, (Horses, Mules, ext). Depending on how things go vehicles may not even be an option due to threats like EMP or Broken supply chains. Equines themselves have limitations related to them being designed for open flat spaces. Also for those who lack Expertise in managing large animals like horses they can be as much as a liability as an asset.
One alternative that could be resurrected from past operations is the use of the bicycle. It was used in past wars and I even hear that it has a place in modern us military operations. Check out this efficiency chart by a maker of a foldable bike for paratroopers: http://militarybikes.com/comparison.html
I’ve also discovered other types of pack animals. One is the Lama that is commonly used in the Andes Mountains of South America. While they can only carry about 1/3 of what a horse can carry they also come with advantages. First they brows instead of graze so they don’t require the same amount of land to maintain. Second they will protect your other livestock from predators like wolves and cougars. This may sound ridiculous but apparently they are naturally hyper aggressive to such predators and will charge and kick them to death. Third they are far more sure footed than horses on mountainous terrain and are smaller and travel better on narrow paths/through dense forests. Finally they are stealthy as they vocalize little and there padded feet leave little trace or noise. They will even lie down in the back of a truck or large SUV.
The second animal I discovered to be packable will be familiar to most, it’s the goat. Now I would not choose this over the Lama for packing ability as it obviously carries far less, though this could be overcome by using more of them and they do proportionately carry as much as a horse. The main advantage of the goat is for their versatility. They can eat most anything, are browsers, provide milk, and are packable. They also leave a print that is extremely hard to distinguish from small deer and are even more sure footed than a Lama.
Now if we were to look at a situation in which we would need 150lb long-term sustainment loads what would this mean in regards to these alternate packing methods? I’ll assume that there will be 50lbs of equipment carried by the operator. I think we should all be able to manage that and if not there are bigger issues that need to be addressed. With the use of the bicycle the load is mainly just eased and speed is gained if terrain permitting. 2 Lamas could easily carry the other 100lb of equipment and fatigue would be minimized on both man and beast. It would take about 4 goats to carry the other 100lbs. As we all know there are no perfect solutions only options. These are just some more to consider.
I didn’t get anything from Mosby other than he carries a lot of stuff. His tone is what it is. He even calls himself full of shit every once in a while. Personally, I would never be able to carry all the gear he does but it gives me ideas. I just thought it was a gear loadout article. And a good one even though I personally like Max’s recommendations better as they suit me better physically.
Here’s my 2 oh-so-valuable cents… lol
You have a set of mission requirements you *want* to meet, and you have a set you *can* meet.
You have gear that you *want* to carry, and you have gear you *can* carry, and then stuff you actually *need* to carry.
So forth and so on.
You (generalization) just have to draw a mental line graph in your head, and where all the things you *can* do intersect, those are the boundaries that you have to work within. Any more, and you’ll just get yourself killed quick[er], any less and you may not be able to meet certain mission requirements.
So for me, I didn’t see Mosby’s posts as an “SF is the *only* way” ego-fest- just another set of standards that I have to melt down and sort through to pick out what works for me.
An often asked question on another forum I;ve been on for folks wanting opinions on buying items is “what is your intended use?”
Once that question is answered it’s usually pretty easy to sort the rest out.
I think Perioikio hits the nail on the head here. Re-orienting our focus on what to carry, based on successful insurgent models. There’s a story here, and one I did not fully take up on. A buddy of mine contacted me years ago, after his first tour of Afghanistan. That was his personal experience I was referring to earlier. I built several light weight chest rigs for him. Being a 18B, he wanted a different rig for each weapon he could select when he “de-bussed”. The armor carrier was worn slick to integrate with any chest rig. At the time, I was oriented towards solving the problem of the counter-insurgent. Now I am looking at it from the other perspective. Timmy Taliban learned early on it was not a good idea to stand and fight against heavily-armed (and armored) guys. But guess what, a guy who wipes his ass with his hand, and holds hands with his buddy on date night (Thursdays) was smart enough to figure this shit out. Which reminds me of another story. When I was in Kali, we used to do these “backyard” mixed-martial arts work-outs, back before we knew they was cool. Anyways, a buddy of mine was pretty stout and a hard puncher. But what I found was if I just covered up, and/or got out of the way, he would punch himself out, run out of gas, and I could return the favor. Hmmm.
You have a stronger, heavier opponent, who you force to chase you, instead of standing and fighting. Your main defense is mobility not armor or weapons. You melt back into the general population instead of “exfiling” to wherever.
These are tactics that fought 3 superpowers to a stand-still in Afghanistan, in over a century of conflict. Great Britain, Russia, and the US. As a well-known trainer says: “In police work, that’s what we call a clue”.
[…] through the comments to the post ‘Call Out: Avoiding Ego in the Gear Advice Game‘ I have to say “Well done Folks.” You did a better job of expressing what I was […]
After my last comment it occurred to me that we really need to define our comments within the context of the intended scenario. In other words, as we discuss our load-outs, in a SHTF scenario, there is a wide range of possibilities for armed conflict and in U/W, many possible phases. For example, our focus here at UWG, has been on the home defense scenario in a WROL situation. Mosby is focused on the community self-defense force, a little wider net, while Max is focused on the organized, light infantry unit, which skips forward to a time when we are actively resisting against a statist regime. There are many possibilities here, and no one knows what, or in what order they will be. But a couple of points.
When selecting load-out, the mission drives the gear. If I am focused on home defense, then a light load out without sustainment gear is in order. If I am focused more on extended patrolling, to push out my perimeter, as Mosby preaches, then I carry more shit, including sustainment gear. If I am focused on organized light infantry ops, as Max teaches, then even more gear comes into play. Finally, if I am looking at examples of insurgency, as in my last post, I might carry a vastly different load-out. Perhaps very similar to my home defense load-out. But in each case, the mission defines what you carry.
One thing that I have noticed in these threads on line is everybody is talking about their idea of what the scenario will look like, and this drives their comments. Maybe we need to back up and actually define exactly what scenario we are addressing before posting our thoughts. In this way we have a context, or frame of reference to examine ideas.
The reason I say this, is because while there is overlap, what Mosby is teaching and what Max is teaching are actually two different scenarios. Mosby’s main thrust is teaching SUT, in the context of a small community self-defense force, in a WROL situation, pushing out their perimeter as far as possible, to fight as far away from the home as possible. Within this context, he recommends carrying a huge fighting and sustainment load-out, very similar to a Ranger/SF load-out for a deep reconnaissance mission.
Max is teaching SUT within the context of an organized, light infantry unit, which is actively defending an AO from aggressive regime search and destroy operations. Within the context of this mission, he recommends a load out for sustained, combat ops, very similar to what any good light infantry unit would require.
In either case, there’s a shit load of gear you need to carry. But here is also where their command guidance differs. Mosby advises his readers to strive to obtain physical fitness comparable to the Ranger Batt, so you can carry a shit-ton of stuff. Max on the other hand, also advises readers to strive for physical fitness, but within practical limits, and carry lighter loads accordingly. So again I think we have two different approaches to the subject, perhaps even two different target audiences.
http://www.maxvelocitytactical.com/2014/03/the-citizen-insurgent/
I’m a old man with many scars.
The older you get the more you understand your limitations & your need to overcome or improve if you are paying attention and those that are not will IMHO not stay in the gene pool long after SHTF.
I like what both JM and MV have to say about just about everything but does that mean I agree with or can do everything they both say, no, but I take their insights very seriously because when the SHTF which it will soon everything is gonna get serious quick and my nodgin processor needs as much good advice as possible to keep me putting rounds downrange as long as I can to benefit my comrades, friends, neighbors and family in the fight for liberty and freedom that I intend to participate in within the limitations that my age, condition and know how allows.
So even if some insights/requirements by MV or JM are beyond my abilities, I want to know them because I will strive to get as close as I can and I also will be but one of a team who overall strength lies not just in the muscle of my arm or my knowledge but in the muscle of all of our arms & all our knowledge!
Sic semper tyranus!!
Max, my deepest gratitude to you and Mosby. Both of you are the master and I am the student. My take away from both of your posting is this; There is more than just one way to get the job done. If it works for you and your circumstances then use it. Be open to try some thing new and don’t get locked into the “but we’ve always done it that way”.
I’m 59 years old, ergo, what was do-able at age 20 is not do-able now, such as run a mile in 4 minutes.
Gear and stuff costs money, one can buy only what they can afford. Reality check here. And if you can not get all the stuff of for LBE carrying per teacher A, then do per teacher B. Or find option C.
Jeff keep this quote in mind. “Revolutions are fought initially by the young and the old.” The middle age people are to up their own asses to see the reality of what we face. You older gents are gonna have to train the younger folks. So your main strength is wisdom. Not how much you can carry on your back or how fast you can run. Its your knowledge and wisdom that are your greatest contribution. The fact that you are old and ornery and can fight like the old rooster in the yard is a bonus.
I think when it comes down to it, Mosby’s writeup is about what he carries and why. It’s just that.
It’s for his readers to decide what is for them and whether they learn something from it or not.
My AK w/ a few spare mags (or my scoped HK91),several stripped MRE’s or protein/mainstay bars, water/puretabs, and a blowout kit. That’s what I NEED IN MY AO FOR MY MISSION. I can drop it all and blend back in(hate to lose the HK). That works for me – that’s what’s important, right?