Arming the Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT) by Absolute Survivalist (Owl21)
Guest post by OWL21: ‘AbsoluteSurvivalist.com‘
As a complement to the Max Velocity’s article ‘The Citizen Unconventional Rifle Squad: Arming with .308?‘, here are some thoughts on the subject. (Max adds: And also ‘Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT): Order of Battle’)
Before beginning, I will point out that my business consults and builds AR uppers for various needs. Instead of simply taking orders for parts, we ask people what they want to accomplish, ask amplifying questions, and make suggestions. The results typically become a rifle upper and parts kit to suit the specific needs of the client. We have been doing this for nearly a decade for discerning tastes.
With the recent upswing in requests for .308 based ARs over the past several years, many manufacturers have responded with outstanding offerings for this platform. It is nearly on par with the AR-15 industry and quietly growing. These are no longer the finicky AR-10’s of the past. Max’s article is a pointed query into this growing arena.
•••••
For the purposes of this article, I will only be focusing on the most commonly available and battle proven 7.62×51 (.308) battle rifles, with more focus on the 308 based AR platform, and more specifically the DPMS patterned versions, for reasons that will become apparent. I know there are more magazine fed 308 rifles out there. But I am only discussing the most common ones here. I will not be specifically attempting to address bolt action vs. semi-auto, or any caliber vs. caliber debates. We are here to discuss the viability, usefulness, and options as they pertain to arming a rifle team with the .308 battle rifles for the purposes of combat team tactics and survival.
The most common 7.62×51 battle rifles (to include their clones):
FN-FAL
HK91 (G3, PTR91, CETME)
M14 (M1A)
SCAR17
AR-10 (308AR, too many variant names to list)
As with most battle rifles, the original FAL is a select fire weapon. The civilian version is semi-automatic.The FAL has seen service in over 90 countries since the 1950’s. There are multiple versions of this rifle with barrels from 16″ up to 21″ (SBR’s have been made in the aftermarket community.) It operates on an adjustable short stroke gas piston system and is considered very robust. The adjustability of the gas system allows for fine tuning the action to the ammunition being used and can serve to reduce recoil considerably. The accuracy of the rifle is generally considered to be “minute of man,” but I think this is due to ammunition selection and a lack of training. With commercial .308 bulk ammunition, our FAL’s stayed within 2 MOA.
Mounting optics on the FAL can be a chore if you use the original system. But as with any free market society, better mounting platforms have been developed in the aftermarket community. With an adequate mount, any optic of your choice can be installed. But beware, the forward recoil impulse can be hard on cheaper optic’s objective lenses. There are plenty of documented cases of this phenomenon.
Because the FAL was licensed to manufacturers in other countries, there are small, but important variations in the parts available for the FAL. It is quite easy to get a Frankenstein FAL that was assembled from parts of different country’s versions of the rifles – these do not always work very well. Some FAL rifles are “Inch” pattern, and some are “Metric,” so knowing the differences can save some headaches down the road. The barrels also need to be “timed,” which takes some knowledge and/or timing spacers.
The most common magazines for the FAL are 20-round metal. Just like the rifles, different countries made their own magazines, and again they are not all alike. They also have “inch” magazines and “metric,” and they will not necessarily be cross compatible with your specific FAL. Some magazines are more valuable than others. During the ammunition and magazine shortage following Sandy Hook, common surplus FAL magazines could still be found regularly at normal pricing.
In the aftermarket community, the only source for new and properly built FALs that I can recommend is DS Arms. They manufacture the complete rifle in the United States to the original FN metric pattern. They are also a source for quality scope mounts and new magazines for the FAL and parts for other FALs as well. A basic DS Arms SA58 rifle will set you back $1100 or more, with the average price being in the $1700 range without accessories.
For the survival team, the FAL is an outstanding battle rifle with decent ergonomics. The average weight of an FAL is over 9 pounds before you add any accessories. Unless you upgrade with a very expensive stock, the length of pull is fixed. For shorter shooters, this is a disadvantage. Recoil can be manageable with proper gas system adjustment. Unless you have people knowledgable in the care and keeping of this rifle, it cannot be recommended since the average person with basic hand tools cannot fully service the weapon. A barrel change is not a simple task for an average survival group. Having owned three different surplus FALs (none built by DS Arms), I broke all three with gentle use – two piston rods, and one fire control group. If you decide to field this rifle, either buy from a known private builder, of which there are quite a few, or from DS Arms.
HK91 Variants
Since the civilian will own the variants, these are what we will address. If you are one of the lucky people to own a real HK91, this will not apply to you. As with the FAL, the original HKs are select fire. The civilian variants are semi-automatic. The German 91 did not have the popularity and wide dispersal and use of the FAL. There are multiple variants of this rifle with barrels from 18″ up to 21″ (SBR’s have been made in the aftermarket community, but are quite rare.) It operates on an roller lock delayed blow back system. The accuracy of the rifle is generally considered to be “minute of man.” As with the FAL I think this is due to ammunition selection and a lack of training. With commercial .308 bulk ammunition, the one PTR 91 variant I owned kept rounds under 2 MOA on average.
Mounting optics on the HK can be a chore if you use the original system. But as with any free market society, better mounting platforms have been developed in the aftermarket community. With an adequate mount, any optic of your choice can be installed. As with the FAL, the forward recoil impulse can be hard on cheaper optic’s objective lenses.
The HK variants are not really what they seem. Most variants are made with surplus parts kits. Their assembly may be quite good, or downright horrible. Until recently, it could be a hit or miss game to find a good clone. They were also very picky about ammunition, which could change from rifle to rifle. One of the industry leaders is PTR Industries, who like DS Arms now manufacturers the entire PTR 91 (HK91 civilian variant), and its other variants of this platform completely in the USA. In the past, I still heard of ammunition issues from people I know who have owned these since selling ours. One of the more common complaints has also been “chewed up brass,” which the one we owned also did. If any of this has be resolved recently, I do not know. I do know that if you happen to have one with a fluted chamber and you leave your brass behind, everyone will know what rifle you are shooting, because the signature left on the brass is unique and distinguishing.
The most common magazines for the HK/PTR are 20-round metal and are some of the cheapest magazines on the market. You can pick them up for under $3 each today, and before Sandy Hook, they were under $1 each. The lower unit, which houses the fire control group and grip are one piece. You are stuck with the grip angle and marginal trigger system.
The only source for new and properly built HK91 variants that I can recommend is PTR Industries. They are also a source for quality aftermarket scope mounts and parts. A basic PTR91 rifle will set you back $1000 or more, with the average price being in the low $1000 range without accessories.
For the survival team, the PTR91 is a good battle rifle with decent ergonomics. The average weight of a PTR91 is over 9 pounds before you add any accessories. Unless you upgrade, the length of pull is fixed. The options for adjustable stock vary from retrofitted AR-15 style to the HK style telescoping. The recoil for this rifle can be higher than desired for smaller shooters unless the weight is increased with accessories. As with the FAL, unless you have people knowledgable in the care and keeping of this platform, it cannot be recommended since the average person with basic hand tools cannot fully service the weapon. Field stripping requires, simple, yet extensive disassembly. Not something I would want to do while laying up on a patrol, especially the need to bang on the stock to get it removed, which is not conducive to being quiet. The overall lack of customizability for the platform is a bit of a let down as well. However, the quantity available and price for magazines makes it hard to resist.
M14 (M1A)
The original m14 is a select fire weapon. The M1A civilian version is semi-automatic.The M14 has seen service in 29 countries since the late 1950’s.There are a few different versions of the M14, none of which I think deserves any special mention (The M1A has quite a few desirable options available.) It operates on a gas operated rotating bolt system and is considered extremely robust. The accuracy of the rifle is generally considered to be a little better than the previous two, but in my experience, they are all similar.
Mounting optics on the M1A…, well it was not really ever designed to accept optics. But as with any free market society, some options have been created, some good, and some not so good in my personal opinion.
I do not have any personal experience building or maintaining these rifles, nor do I know anyone who has. A few of the outfits that I have checked with that do seem to think it takes a lot of time (based on the pricing for various work, which did not involve significant, if any, parts for the work.)
The most common magazines for the M1A are 20-round metal. Of the few aftermarket sources for these, I have not heard that they always preform flawlessly, but such is the nature of magazine manufacturers. 20-25 round aftermarket magazines seem to run in the $13-$40 range each. USGI contract magazines, if you can find them are…umm…expensive. Do your research before buying magazines. Magazines from Springfield Armory are about $50 each.
There is only one source for new M1A rifles – Springfield Armory. Because of the popularity of the M1A rifle, there are aftermarket suppliers for just about anything you might desire: stocks, chassis, scope mounts, muzzle devices, etc. A Standard M1A rifle will set you back $1400 and up without accessories. There is no average price with the enormity of options available for this rifle from the factory.
For the survival team, the M1A is an outstanding battle rifle with outstanding ergonomics (after installing options) and reliability. The average weight of a M1A is just under 9 pounds before you add any accessories. The recoil for this rifle can be higher than desired for smaller shooters unless the weight is increased with accessories. This is another rifle that requires a person to have some specific knowledge in the care and keeping of this platform. Simply removing the bolt from the rifle is not a simple task for an average person, and I doubt I would want my armorer out on patrol. The field stripping procedure requires a significant amount of disassembly, which is definitely not something I would want to do in the field if it could be avoided. And who knows if it could be avoided. In order to have something better than then 9 lb trigger, gunsmithing is involved, but it is still possible.
SCAR 17
Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) is a modular rifle made for US SOCOM. I don’t know a whole lot about this rifle other than what I have read in multiple places and seen in various videos, because I do not have, nor to I intend to spend the $2800+ on this rifle, without accessories.
It operates via a short stroke gas piston rotating bolt and is considered very reliable. The long picatinny rail allows for ease of adding optics and other accessories. Magazines are standard 20-round metal at $35-45 each. There are many dealers from which these rifles can be purchased, and several were in stock as of this writing. Based on what I know, I cannot imagine anyone would want to make changes to the rifle with the exception of a different muzzle device to suit your purposes.
For the Survival team, $11,000+ is a lot to spend on four rifles, not including optics or a pile of magazines. They are quite easy to maintain in the field and have great ergonomics based on the one I held at a gun show. Based on all of the various reviews I have read, the recoil is quite pleasant. Coming in at 7.7 – 8.5 lbs, I would love to have a team’s worth of these if someone gave them to me.
AR-10 (308 AR Variants)
I must give the devil its due here. The AR-10 is an ArmaLite product. They hold the US Trademark for the name AR-10. All other variants will have a different name, but are still commonly referred to by the uninitiated as AR-10’s even though it is false. From henceforth, consider yourselves to have been educated. For our purposes, we will refer to everything that resembles the ArmaLite AR-10, including the AR-10 itself, as 308ARs, except where necessary for the sake of clarity.
The majority of 308ARs are operated by a direct impingement gas system. A few exceptions, such as LWRC’s R.E.P.R. use a very reliable self-regulating, short stroke gas piston. The standard direct impingement gas system has well over 50 years of service, even though it can be much disliked. “Shits where it eats” is a common meme of this operating system. This system can be a cause for concern under certain circumstances, but very few people will ever find themselves in such circumstances. There are any number of reviews where this operating system has proven bulletproof except in circumstances so extreme that the barrel was destroyed before the gas system had a chance to fail.
I have broken two FAL gas piston operating systems, but have yet to have any direct impingement systems give me one single issue. It is simply not worth debating. Anything can fail, at any time, and for any reason. The DI system works.
Even a base model 308AR will readily accept a large assortment of optics without adding conversions as are required with the FAL, HK, and M1A. Of all the 308 battle rifles listed here, only the 308ARs give the most options for optics and sights. In fact, the availability of sight options are nearly endless for the 308AR. What’s your pleasure?
There are a few variations on the 308AR, and like the FAL, they all look the same. Like the FAL, the parts are not necessarily interchangeable between the variations. This included magazines, buffers/springs, some lower parts, barrels, and forearms. ArmaLite parts can only be used on the AR-10 and licensed variants (or homebuilt rifles based on the AR-10 specs.) Rock River has its own proprietary parts, as do other manufacturers. The DPMS* pattern seems to be the most prolific and common of the variants. So much so, that MagPul Industries created 20 and 25 round magazines for DMPS based 308ARs, but not for the others. So before you buy a 308AR, make sure you know and understand what you are getting. It will do your team no good, for each person to have incompatible variants.
DPMS based magazines either in 20-round metal, or Magpul 20-25-round will range in price from $15-$30 each. Magazines for other variants are more expensive and can be more difficult to find in a pinch. Regardless of which variant you choose, they all operate on the same principal as an AR-15 magazine.
308ARs are ergonomically the same as an AR-15 in most categories. In general, the stocks are the same, the grips and triggers, the functionality, and the overall appearance. They are built in the same fashion, and both have nearly all of the same options available on the open market. Anyone who has trained with any AR-15 can pick-up a 308AR and not require any additional training to operate and maintain it. They are functionally identical for the end user.
Anyone who has successfully operated and maintained an AR-15 can do the exact same with a 308AR. Anyone who has serviced and/or built an AR-15 can service and build a 308AR. Some tools might be a little different. One of the best parts of the 308AR is that it is infinitely customizable. The large assortment of rifle stocks, carbine stocks, buffer tubes, grips, trigger groups, barrels, forearms, and muzzle devices that are available for the 308ARs is significant. Having the ability to tailor your rifle to your person, team, group, etc is very beneficial. And because the market is so large and well supplied, the cost to do this is low (relatively speaking.)
A new basic 308 AR will run in the $1000 range and can reach into the $5000 range. A very high quality 308AR can be had on average for between $1300 -$1800. Why the variance? Because the option base is so large. The difference between a standard plastic hand guard at $30 and and a $365 top of the line free float hand guard is one way to point out the price variances. You want a better trigger than the $20 Mil-spec one? Those will set you back $90 to $275 depending on your pleasure, and they are worth the money. Standard barrels are under $200 while a high end 1/2 MOA barrel could be $600 and up. You can choose from a $40 carbine stock all the way up to a $500 stock that can be adjusted in four different directions, and these are only a few options.
For the survival team, the 308AR is an outstanding battle rifle with customizable ergonomics (especially for DPMS based models.) The average weight of a 308AR is just under 9 pounds before you add any accessories. But because you can pick your options, it is possible for a 16″ carbine 308AR to weight about 7 lbs or less. Because of the many options for adjustable stocks, shooters short and tall can have a perfect fit. The recoil for this rifle can be higher than desired for smaller shooters, especially when the rifle is built lighter. There are several ways to reduce felt recoil with various aftermarket parts, and by adjusting gas system length (this is done at the time the rifle is built.) Anyone who has come to love the AR-15 rifle will instantly adapt to the 308AR. All training is transferable from one platform to the next. Field stripping is identical as are all of the other service and maintenance operations, even though the parts are technically different. Unlike the other platforms above, the AR does not require as much disassembly in the field, and what is done can be preformed quietly. There are more people who know how to service and repair the AR than any other rifle and the tools necessary to do anything you might want will fit in a small tool box.
* DPMS Inc is a manufacturer of AR-15 and 308AR rifles and components. Other manufacturers and parts suppliers have cloned the DPMS design more prolifically than other 308AR manufacturer. This means that any 308AR that is based on the DPMS pattern will have significantly more options than with other patterns. You are not required to have or use products manufactured and labeled by DPMS in order for them to work with other DPMS patterned parts. This is inclusive to 100% of the parts used. So you can have a complete “DPMS patterned” 308AR without a single DPMS part in it. Just always make certain you are using parts that are compatible with the “pattern” you chose.
•••••
Regardless of the 308 battle rifle platform you choose, the changes to your standard operating procedures should be minimal. Training changes will be predicated by the differences between the old platform and the new one. Magazine shingles and pouches are readily available for the typical 20-round magazines for any of these rifles. 20-rounds of 308 ammunition in a magazine weighs approximately the same as 30 rounds of 5.56 in a magazine. Either you will carry 33% less ammunition, or you will do more PT.
•••••
AMMUNITION
Today, you can purchase 500 rounds of 308 147gr FMJ brass cased ammo for $290.
Today, you can purchase 500 rounds of 223 55 gr FMJ brass cased ammo for $165.
308 145 gr Wolf is $225 for 500
223 55 gr Wolf is $119 for 500
308 match ammo is $1 per round and up
223 match ammo is $1 per round and up
There is definitely a price difference, except in match ammo, where they are nearly identical all the way up the ladder. But because you are not going to train with match ammo (unless you are one of those special people), it pays to train with less expensive ammunition. By training with an AR-15, it is quite easy to move over to a 308AR, but not as much so to move up to a FAL, PTR, or M1A without some additional training. But if your group is training with HK93s then the PTR91 makes sense, or if your are training with the Mini-14, then the M1A makes sense. But I have not seen a soul training with a 93 or Mini-14….
Am I getting through? Compatibility is important, all the time.
•••••
By properly equipping a team with 308 battle rifles, a leader would have more options for covering danger areas and open ground. As I am sure Max can attest, there is a lot of openness in central Texas that one might be forced to cross. Being able to cover that area with a support element that has greater range and power could prove decisive. But that same group still needs to be able to conduct any standard battle drill as if they were armed with AR-15s. If that 308 support element got caught during bounding overwatch, then they would still need to be able to RTR, peel/bound forward/back, or whatever is necessary just as any typical rifle team would. This means that they probably should not have 14 lb 308AR sniper rifles with high powered scopes, but be more conservative and have 16″ or 18″ barreled lighter weight rifles with lower powered optics.
Even if the 308 team is for special purposes, understanding the benefits and limitations can go a long way to getting the right rifles. A 16″ barreled 308 is still devastating and accurate out to 800 yards in the hands of someone who knows how to do it. If you have a team of guys who can do that, you have something super special. Most people cannot. However, what they can do is put rounds completely through the base of a 16″ diameter oak tree at 200 yards, or destroy a brick wall being used for cover/concealment.
Maybe you have that one special guy who can shoot the wings off of a gnat at 100 yards with a .22LR rifle. So he gets his .308 bolt action rifle (or maybe you’ll be lucky and he will favor the DPMS patterned KAC SR25.) But he, along with the rest of the support team will carry 308 carbine or SPR battle rifles to support the mission. This way, everything is compatible throughout the support team, and in the event they bump the enemy, they can be effective when running battle drills. If all goes smoothly, and the leader calls on the team for an assault mission, they can also easily accomplish that task as well.
But what is most important to understand, and what I think Max is trying to convey, is that the 308 battle rifle is not necessarily a replacement to the AR-15, but a complement to it when properly utilized. It is the Citizen Unconventional Rifle team’s version of calling up a machine gunner, or it is a leader’s peace of mind to be able to put in a more effective and longer range overwatch. Adding a 308 battle rifle element is not specifically for the purposes of long range shooting, but more for adding significantly more firepower with other potential benefits should the need arise.
Additional Note: As I was writing this, Max posted the Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT): Order of Battle article. So some of the points are in some ways duplicated here. But as a four decade survivalist, and not a combat veteran, I am not inclined to agree with having one individual one (or each) team carry a different weapon platform and caliber from the rest of his team, and especially his battle buddy. That one guy becomes an island and cannot rely upon his buddy or team for resupply, parts, etc. He would be forced to carry it all. Even if other teams were similarly equipped, the groups might get cut off from one another.
I personally believe it is better to have and entire team armed up similarly, so long as they can conduct the assault cycle independently, and their firearms are not overly specialized. This allows the team, as a whole, to operate on the same equilibrium and be able to rely upon each other for resupply if needed.
Addendum: Medium Support Weapons (MSW) for the Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT):
For the average survival CUTT, most options in this arena are limited unless your group has a significant amount of funds, both for the weapons themselves and for the ammunition to keep them fed. But there are legal modifications that can be made to existing firearms as well as some off the shelf platforms that can be utilized for the MSW role.
For teams and squads operating with AK-47s (or AR-47s), the civilian semi-auto, belt fed RPD is a great option. It can be handled by a single man, and all of the parts are readily available on the open market. With its dedicated 100 round drum magazine, a significant volume of fire can be brought into the fight. The RPK is also a decent MSW, and can be fed with standard 30 and 40-round AK magazines or the commonly found 75-round drums. One nice feature of the RPK (and possibly the RPD) is swapping the original stock with a Slide Fire stock. With training, a MSW gunner can learn to send accurate controlled bursts down range.
For teams and squads who use the AR-15, the Ares Shrike belt-fed upper is a good, if somewhat expensive, beginning. It is the closest thing you can get to the M-249. Add the Slide Fire stock, quality bi-pod, and some training, and watch out! If you adverse to spending several thousand dollars on an upper, you can take a heavy barreled AR-15 with a quality free float hand guard, and use the 100-round Beta C-mags (do not use the off brand versions of these, you will just be wasting time and money.) Again the addition of a Slide Fire stock, bipod, and some training will make the MSW gunner more effective. (Max adds: or Light Support Weapon – LSW?)
There are less options for the 308 in this area, but we can make some useful modification here. (Actually, if you want to deal out low five digit cash, you can get a registered M60. I only know of a couple of dentists who might be able to afford such an expense.) There is a company called X Products who make some high quality 50-round drum magazines for most 308 battle rifles. For the purposes of a MSW, I would only recommend going with a DS Arms FAL that has been built up with a heavy barrel, or a 308AR that had a heavy .936 CHF 20″ barrel with a rifle length gas system, and a full length free float hand guard. Adding a folding bi-pod, strong buttstock, and an extra heavy buffer would complete the .308 MSW. (Bold added by Max!)
There are a few other less desirable options for various reasons. One is a semi-auto 1919, and another is the MG34 upper that fits onto a 308AR lower. Neither were designed to be shouldered, and both are designed more around a two person team operating one weapon system. I would not personally consider these options for the MSW role, but they could fill other roles, especially in a static defensive role around the survivalist retreat.
The Absolute Survivalist
AbsoluteSurvivalist.com
As I was completing my research this morning, it turns out that Beta Company, who makes the popular Beta-C 100 round magazines for the AR-15 now make the same magazines for every battle rifle mentioned in the article!
Now it is really time to up your CUTT with a MSW with a known reliable high capacity magazine.
BFYTW
As a note: the MSW is at this point not about being a fully automatic machine gun. It will be a semi auto with bipod and heavier barrel, battle optic, and the option of drum magazines. The point is to generate sustained accurate suppression fire. But it also needs to be wielded as a battle rifle if the support gunner has to fight through.
Agreed.
LSW thoughts: Seems like the USMC is doing some important research regarding LSW specifically as regards our application. They are fielding the M27 which is just a heavy barrel HK 416. (The piston makes it run cooler during sustained fire) The obvious benefits being portability, accuracy (especially compared to an M249) and compatibility with the M16. What makes this important to us is that anyone can put a piston heavy barrel and bumpstock/fast trigger on an AR and make exactly the same gun. Their lessons learned so far seem to be that they think the drums are too bulky and they are falling back on using a bunch of 30 round magazines instead. They also seem to be using two guns to keep the psychological impact of automatic suppressing fire going while one gun is changing mags.
MSW thoughts: I agree with everything you said about why the Ar 10 is the reasonable choice for a 308 battle rifle and I think that building something like a 308 version of an M27 might be the closest we can reasonably come to a MSW.
Regarding M14/M1A:
I have a little experience with them.
There are more manufacturers than Springfield Armory. LRB, Smith Enterprises and Fulton Armory. In my opinion the other 3 manufacture a better rifle than SI. I will say that LRB has the M25 receiver which offers a dedicated/built in scope mount.
Magazines are currently being manufactured for the military by CMI CheckMate Industries. They run around 25$ and work fine. Even the 25 rounders.
With iron sights and standard ammo, a new M1A/M14 is capable of less than 2 MOA. Glass bedded/rear lugged or dropped into a Sage Chassis it will do less than 1 MOA with Federal GMM.
Field stripping is a matter of training and practice. Like the M16, the M14 can be field stripped and reassembled blindfolded.
Thanks for the information. I knew that someone with more knowledge would chime in. I did not mention specific aftermarket options for increasing accuracy on any of the rifles since that was not the original point of the article.
As for field stripping the M14/M1A, I personally do not like the idea of removing the entire stock from the barreled action to get to the bolt and firing pin. Fortunately, the rifle is quite reliable, and likely will not require much service under field combat conditions.
223 55 gr Wolf is $119 for 500…
Please indicate the source of this quote.
Thnx.
Just bought that at wally world. Tula vice wolf but whatever. Nice polymer coated steel case 55 gr. Good enough for training purposes. Guys always bitch and moan about this stuff but I’ve never had any problems.
May I ask, what has sparked the interest in going back up to 7.62mm? This is an interesting discussion, but kind of leaves me wondering if this is just another beat the caliber horse to death one more time.
FTR my BOL is in tank country and having 1000ftlbs of energy at 500+ meters versus the same at the muzzle seems like an advantage (source Sniper Central review of NATO ammo)
Or maybe in a year there will be a saying, “First Max came for the Ruger 10-22, then the venerable M-1 Garand, but he will have my 5.56 only from my cold dead typing hands.”
Pursuit of tactical excellence for the armed citizen, and useful tactical concepts, as ever.
Do with it what you will, which for most, is nothing at all.
Max is posing another option for competent riflemen. If we had ready access to crew served weapons then I expect he would expound upon that as well.
Nah, I think the important point to grasp is to look at the mix of 5.56 and 7.62 in the OrBat of the CUTT. In the heavy support role it makes a lot of sense, seeing how we don’t have ready access to belt fed machine guns, RPG’s and the like.
Not a replacement so much as a supplement.
Actually, the M14 family has several non-Springfield options, as well as a very robust aftermarket accessory industry. I know of 2 options for mounting optics on M14s instead of using the problem-prone standard side-bolt rail mount:
1) Ultimak railed handguard: This is a relatively inexpensive solution that installs easily above the barrel of a standard M14/M1A clone, can be used for a red dot or long eye relief scope, and doesn’t block the top of the receiver, allowing use of the stripper clip guide to load the rifle directly from clips.
2) LRB Arms M25S: This isn’t an accessory, but an M14 clone rifle built on a slightly nonstandard LRB Arms receiver with proprietary built-in dovetails for mounting a scope rail directly over the receiver. According to reviews, they are very solid, unlike the wobbly side-bolt scope mount available for standard M14 clones. LRB’s M25 scope mounts allow use of standard scopes, but disallow loading from stripper clips, even with the rail removed, as the rear dovetail replaces the M14 stripper clip guide that is machined into standard M14 receivers.
FWIW, LRB Arms M14S and M25S receivers are considered the cream of the crop for current production M14 clone receivers. Unlike Springfield M1A receivers, LRB’s are cold hammer forged and tempered according to the original M14 specifications, and also do not have the dimensional spec problems commonly reported with Springfield M1As when using milsurp parts (regarded as superior to most current commercial production). Unfortunately, LRB rifles are not for the budget-conscious.
This brings me to another point though, that there are plenty of non-Springfield options out there, and I’d probably choose any of them over a Springfield.
Another non-Springfield option is the Polytech M14, made in Taiwan. Polytech used tooling purchased from one of the original M14 manufacturers (I forget which one), so they are also forged, not cast, and lack the dimensional out-of-spec problems of the M1A. Polytech no longer manufactures M14 clones but they are still available 2nd-hand. I’ve seen them going on Gunbroker in the past 6 years as low as $700 but usually they demand at least $900.
Norinco also makes M14 clones, also forged, and also with similar problems to Polytech on some early production rifles. Norinco still produces M14 clones, with their current production reportedly being of very high quality, but you can have any because they were banned from import in the early 90s. Like Polytech older Norc M14s can be found on the used market at comparable prices.
Both Polytech and Norinco have suffered reports of problems with the hardness of some early production receivers and/or bolts. The good news is that this can be completely corrected, leaving you with a very high quality mil-spec receiver. Last I heard, Smith Enterprises and Fulton Arms both offered hardness testing and, for those that need it, retempering of M14 clone receivers.
…or if you live in gun-hating Canada you can get a brand new Norinco M14 clone, superior in all respects to Springfield, for $599 CDN, which comes out to $478.75 USD at current exchange rates. :D
7.62 Arms also makes a cold hammer forged M14 clone receiver. They’re relatively new to the business and I haven’t heard anything good or bad about them, but I’d probably take them over Springfield.
Also since Max is talking about grenadiers, I’ll point out one more item of interest WRT M14s. Rifle grenade launchers for $35 ea:
http://www.keepshooting.com/m14-grenade-launcher.html
Other rifle grenade resources:
http://www.amazon.com/Improvised-Rifle-Grenades-Working-Hardware/dp/0873647084/
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/06/praxis-practice-rifle-grenades-surplus.html
http://benandbawbsblog.blogspot.co.il/2012/01/revisiting-rifle-grenade.html
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92110
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=135673.0
Having said all that, I ended up with a couple of AR10 clones for commonality of parts and manual of arms, and for out-of-the-box accuracy.
Happy trails,
#OREGON HOBO#
Regarding accurization, here’s another excuse to throw ridiculous sums of cash at playing Barbie dress-up with your M14 (gunporn warning):
http://jallenenterprises.com/index_option2.html
#OREGON HOBO#
How about we get back to 308AR’s and the CUTT battle rifle concept?
Is it germane to the discussion to ask if or how the German tactical model of using the riflemen to maneuver the weapons system into place applies to us?
Maybe specifically to those teams not fully kitted the same or that have individuals who can hump a hefty battle rifle.
I’d suggest it depends on the size of your group. if you have 10 guys, the German infantry squad model with one “heavy” weapon is an alternative. For a larger group, you my want the heavy weapons under leader control on the model of the US dismounted recon troop.
Max, I honestly wasn’t trying to derail the topic here.
For some of us, the M14 is an extremely important member of the “big 4” battle rifles primarily because of one mundane characteristic: lack of a pistol grip.
The reaction of most people is probably “so f****** what?” Most people do not live in California, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, or Connecticut. No pistol grip means it doesn’t get caught up in most state-level Assault Weapons Bans (I’m no lawyer, so verify the specifics of your own state’s laws).
As a refugee from California I can tell you that otherwise unremarkable rifles like M1 Carbines, Mini-14s, SKSes, M14/M1As, and M1 Garands take on a unique significance for those stuck in such locales, both for their lack of a pistol grip and in some cases their ability to be clip-fed directly. Those clip guides become a much more attractive feature when limited to 10-round mags anyway, or when one only has a tiny handful of grandfathered 20/30 round mags. There is even a relatively common manual of arms between most of those I listed.
I can also vouch for the fact that there are more like-minded folks stuck in these states than one might imagine, due to family, school, inflexible careers, long-established local businesses, trying to make retirement before fleeing, or a host of other commitments and complications. Heck you’ve even got a Canadian reading your blog.
As for those J. Allen Enterprises stocks I linked, despite my facetious references to Barbies and gun porn, I do believe the JAE stocks to be a useful and easy (though God-awful expensive) means of accurizing a rifle that is not known for being easily made nor kept accurate.
I meant no offense nor distraction, and hope this clarifies my intent.
Regards,
#OREGON HOBO#
As one who inhabits Canuckistan in the great white north, unfortunately, most of the fine rifles on the above list are classified as prohibited or restricted. While restricted rifles are not overly difficult to acquire (extra endorsement on your firearms licence) they may only be used at a licensed range. Obviously this greatly limits the ability to train with them in the field. The AR15 and all variants thereof fall into the restricted category as well.
Ironically, because they are newer, and therefore not named specifically in the legislation, rifles like the Bushmaster ACR and Robinson Arms XCR are non-restricted. We can get, non-restricted, the Norinco clone of the M1A, usually for around $600. Depending upon specifics, for about $1400, you would have it in a really nice aluminum chassis, like the Blackfeather.
An ACR or XCR will typically run $2900 or so. I’d rather not go down the restricted road, because of the training limitations it would impose now. Obviously in a true SHTF scenario, it wouldn’t matter so much.
Any thoughts? What way would you lean?
Two things. I don’t see why a 4-man team cannot have one 7.62 guy. It’s not like these things are falling apart and require a new bolt group out there, and there’s nothing to say that the rest of the team can’t carry a little extra 7.62 for the gunner. But I also like the concept of two guns working together in concert; perhaps a heavy team of two 7.62 with two 5.56. Lots of options here.
In terms of which 7.62 system to get, the DPMS version seems to be the hands-down winner here. At least 50% main parts commonality, and 100% on controls and accessories. Magpul mags, grips, stocks; optics, BUIS, lights/lasers; good spare parts availability; moderate pricing.
Whichever one you chose, stock deep on ammo, mags, and spare parts. Perhaps a cache or two in your AO.
Diz, I have read that there is one M27 per buddy pair in the fire team so that one is firing whilst the or displaces. That seems viable, too.
There is no mention of the Colt LE901-16S Rifle, 308, 16″, Multi Caliber (accepts 5.56/223 upper and a dedicated .22LR upper as well.) Too new? Too pricey ($2000 or so)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O9wUV8ozmk
We took the decision to sell M1As and a lone M700P to focus on 5.56mm carbines and a pair of scoped SPRs. We truly live in a 300m world (wooded hills) where the only shots beyond that are down the Interstate.
Max’s article and this one are causing us to review that decision. And how to generate the money to go back down the 7.62mm road. Proceeds from 7.62mm sales went to training.
Oh, Colt builds War Horses, not Show Ponies.
Excellent point. I did much the same thing when I sold my M-1A and remy700. Got NV and BA and standardized on 5.56.
The terrain also gets a vote here. I also live in rolling terrain where more than a 100m shot is unusual.
But, if I’m stuck in urban terrain, perhaps the 7.62 would come in handy.
First I have to say is this is one of the best and most applicable discussions to date..Really excellent work. I will need to reference and reread the section in CONTACT that has been pointed out…In a CUTT I see additional advantages to the .308 “integration” and one is in a WROL situation the addition of a firearm that eats .308 could be very useful just from a logistic standpoint in that if you encounter a cache of that ammunition you have something that can eat it. I know lots of shooters that stashed large quantities of .308 back in the 90’s for CMP shooting and then switched to .223 platforms for match shooting..Their .308 stocks still exist..The MSW concept is great as well. The anti-material advantages of .308 broaden the capabilities of the squad and or fire team, in that any “conflicts” are very possibly going to have a vehicle component, and that is an area where .308 really shines.(engine blocks for example). Please keep up the discussion on this one.
“20-rounds of 308 ammunition in a magazine weighs approximately the same as 30 rounds of 5.56 in a magazine.”
We used to have M1As before going to 5.56mm exclusively. My notes show just over 1.5 pounds for a loaded 20-round USGI M-14 mag and just under 1 pound for 30 rounds of 5.56mm in a USGI mag.
This is a GI magazine and 20 rounds of Portuguese surplus.
738 grams
1.6236 lbs
25.9776 oz.
That’s six pounds for 80 rounds of 7.62mm or 180 rounds of 5.56mm, both in magazines.
80 rounds of 7.62mm vs. 180 rounds of 5.56mm. Think long and hard on this.
This disparity along with bad ergonomics of the M1A and the scarcity of replacement USGI parts led us to sell the M1As. That left a .308 bolt gun which we sold to go to one caliber.
Submariner, you are right on the weights. I usually shoot with my 10-round single stack mags for competitions, and didn’t realize that is what I weighed against the 30-round AR-15 loaded mags.
A loaded 20-round Magpul 308AR magazine weighed in at 1 pound 6.9 ounces.
I have rigs that are set-up identically except for the magazines, one for AR-15, and one for 308AR. I carry four immediate access mags and two reserve mags on a belt, plus 3-9 spares in a pack. Though I do feel a weight difference, I do not find it detrimental. But there is also 33% less ammo than when I carry 5.56.
Realistically, I would carry a heavier MSW and the ammo for it if I thought it would increase the chances of my team/squad/unit, but I would not carry it as an individual without a team/squad with which to use in support. But that is just me.
There is point being missed here:
1) ‘Graduate Level’: If the weight of an ammo load is an issue, you are not graduate level. Do more PT and stick with the 556.
2) 308AR has great ergonomics. Who is recommending an M1A? Not me.
3) Just because I recommend the 308AR for a ‘graduate level’ CUTT dos not mean everyone has to throw out their AR15’s. You will keep the AR15’s anyway. There are clear reasons for choosing 308 but if you can’t carry a basic load, its not for you.
Seriously guys this should not be a debate about a few pounds here and there. If you decide you need it, you need to carry it. Worries about weight go to far greater readiness issues.
“… but if you can’t carry a basic load, its not for you.”
What do you consider a basic load for 7.62mm? For 5.56mm?
I was carrying 14 30-round AR mags (420 rounds) during CTT&MCO. Along with all of my other gear. Had I been armed with the 308AR, I would have had 14 20-round mags (280 rounds), again with the rest of my gear. Is that standard? I don’t know.
Under certain circumstances, I have set-ups to carry twenty five 30-round mags, plus my other gear. But I also PT. I consider that a “basic load” for those circumstances that call for it.
YMMV