Arctic Pilgrim: Links for components of a battle belt
Quote:
“FWIW, Max himself will tell you that he makes no claims about this setup being the end all/be all of setups, only that it is functional, and largely made up of what he had at hand. Max’s approach is a good one, in my opinion, using good gear that is on hand, keeping costs down, and using rattle-can-camo where necessary to turn ACU into OD green, for instance. I’ve done that myself on a few occasions, having “kryloned” my ALICE ruck, a few misc pouches, boots (long story), and more recently a slew of AR magazines, my .308, and my beloved AR.”
One thing: if you build a full light infantry battle belt like this, and put the gear in it, it will weigh a little. That is kind of the point – it allows you to carry a load of good basic gear on your belt. Don’t come whining back saying it’s too heavy – if so, go make up a tacticool battle belt with nothing but a taco pouch or two, a dump pouch, and some other half-assery. Then get yourself down to the square range and do some tacticool stuff to impress some range groupie chicks.
No-one said that operating as light infantry, or unconventional warfare resistance fighters, SHTF survivors, or whatever you want to call it today, would be easy. You have to carry at least a basic load to be able to stay out and sustain yourself for the fight.
Live Hard, Die Free.
MV
Max Watch your SIX AROUND AP . He is a Known Federal Rat having set up his own militia group and publicly testified as an FBI informant in Alaska. He now avows “Christian Identity” and Neo Nazi beliefs on his “websight”. Makes Me wonder how an FBI and BATFE paid informant found your sight.
Lol. What are you talking about?
Care to try to prove even one of these claims? I can positively disprove them all.
Amazing. Just amazing.
I’ve talked with Justin at length via email (though not much lately) and I can attest that while I haven’t met him personally, like every other blogger, he’s got detractors and supporters. In my experience, everything he says on his web site and his actions that I know about are consistent with his faith and patriotism. I can identify with him, as when I’ve trained others, because my service branch wasn’t what one typically equates with field expertise, I was called a FBI plant, former CIA, current CI, etc, etc, etc, etc. While laughable, it does get boring after awhile.
Judge the man by what he does, not by what detractors interject to cause division…..
On the BB controversy, Max has said this set up works for him. Others of us that are older-school (is that a word??) than he like a balanced approach and might be a bit different. It’s like choosing a rifle. Find one that works well in most situations, and as others have said, “TRAIN with it” and adjust based on what you find through actual field use. Wear it for a couple days…..straight, not taking it off while you sleep, etc, crawl with it…crawl with it some more….get it wet and muddy….see what fills up with mud/dirt/leaves, etc….see what is the optimal placement for your pouches/equipment. Do a few ‘hit it’ drills…..roll with it….run with it….run some more. Then throw on your plate carrier…..work with the two combined….then, just for fun, throw on your ruck or 3 day…..and work with them…..see what needs adjustment.
Oh….in order to do the above, a good amount of PT will need to be accomplished…..just sayin’….
Figure out what you need. Max has provided a great start on thinking about what will work for you….find out. If he’s got something that does, copy it. Modify it.
Curious: a more balanced approach? Referring to magazine placement perhaps? This belt kit just rolled out that way, had others with mag pouches both sides, but this is better with the handgun.
Yes, I was referring to mag pouch placement on either side of the BB. I’m of the school that keeps the abdomen clear as possible, so my mag pouches are set back, even further restricting space available. My personal set up is still in transition from old-old school (Class of ’94, 21 plus), so mine is ‘evolving’ as well. I’m not yet sold on some of the more ‘exotic’ arrangements. However, a harness BB set up is truly the way to go for a LI type, or one who aspires to be…much more versatile than a vest or a chest rig or a PC doubling as a LBV/LBE.
I have a camelback on the back of the harness, and as I use a ruck with a frame, it’s not in the way (have tried this out quite a bit), so my water is dealt with.
I don’t have a holster or pistol mag pouch on the BB. Still playing with how or if I want to carry one…personal choice.
I do have a BOK, a radio, a fixed blade knife (I know, old, old, old, old..
), a waist pack (modern version) that stays empty until I put rations (typically meal replacement bars) with a poncho and possibly a woobie…METT dependent. I’ve also got a dump pouch that I’m deciding if it’s worth the effort (long ago, we did what you do, and put our empty mags inside our shirt or partially unzipped jackets, and I’m thinking that I’m going to dump my ‘dump’ pouch…but we’ll see with a few more field trials.)
You’ve given some good food for thought for the new guys….as well as some dinosaurs, too.
An aside, one of the units I was with had an exchange program with the RAF Regiment regarding Air Base Ground Defense….interesting exchange of tactics and ideas we had. Our guy was a Squadron Leader (Major equivalent).
Thanks for reading.
Yes it’s important to not have pouches forward of the hips. Except small ones like pistol mags and leathermen pouches etc. old school for me was mag pouches on each hip. I may go back to that, and move the handgun back a notch to make room.
I run a G19 in a SpecOps thigh rig (Thanks Max.) hung off my trouser belt. Frees up space on the belt, and lets me keep a weapon in the event I have to dump the belt. Blocks a cargo pocket, so I keep soft, flat items I don’t need quickly in it.
You’re welcome. That is definitely a way. I decided not to rig to use my specops brand dropleg with this belt. I could take off the Molle holster on the BB and use the drop leg, attaching it to my trouser belt, not my pants belt. But remember if you do this you have to leave the BB above the drop leg clear of pouches. Because a BB sits low in the hips a pouch on the BB above he drop leg will get in the way of your draw. Quiet mans technique is a good option.
“One thing: if you build a full light infantry battle belt like this, and put the gear in it, it will weigh a little. That is kind of the point – it allows you to carry a load of good basic gear on your belt. Don’t come whining back saying it’s too heavy – if so, go make up a tacticool battle belt with nothing but a taco pouch or two, a dump pouch, and some other half-assery. Then get yourself down to the square range and do some tacticool stuff to impress some range groupie chicks.”
First of all there is absolutely nothing light about light Infantry.
I think this deserves some discussion. How many mags (and generally how heavy to load) should go on a war/ battle belt really depend on concept of use. If someone told me they wanted a setup for home defense, plus maybe a riot/ hurricane scenario and some training I would probably direct them to a system with 2-4 spare rifle mags and 2x pistol mags. On the other hand if they were going into a Blackhawk Down scenario it would be closer to 15-20 rifle mags and 4+ pistol mags. The plan should, within reason, drive the load out.
Next I think we have to look at the two different (admittedly a generalization) approaches to the battle belt. The first is as you describe/ wear which is basically an old school LBE setup with modern pouches on a nylon belt. Nothing wrong with this setup. The other is as part of a modular system including either a chest rig or mag pouches mounted on a plate carrier. A person using this setup will often have, between the two, more ammo and gear than a heavy battle belt setup. While it is another piece of kit to buy and more stuff to wear some folks think this modularity gives them a lot of flexibility. Personally once it shows up and is assembled my ‘war belt’ will serve bump in the night duty. If needed I can add 8 more mags plus maybe some ancillary stuff in pouches, via a chest rig. Or I could just use a chest rig.
Both approaches can work. Thanks for the conversation.
Phone typing: I meant attach the dropleg to your under pants belt, not the BB itself, so it stays with you when you take the BB off. Not that I ever take the BB off
@ Ryan: I think you definitely miss the context. Reading my previously published stuff you will see a lot of discussion about various ways to rig your gear. My firm opinion is that a full BB is superior for light infantry operations, having worn all these types of great set ups on various types of operations. A BB can be worn with body armor as required, but you will find that trying to wear a full BB with a chest rig style set up will result in discomfort and the two riga bumping each other. Honestly, a BB fully set up is all you need, along with your patrol/assault pack/ruck. Phone typing sucks hope you can see through the changed words – gear not great etc….
Context is everything. Most training you see is geared towards square range live-fire, and closely mimics competition shooting courses. You see people imitate what the spec ops guys are doing/wearing. Then there are the minimalists who are training strictly for home-based self-defense. Let’s not even get into the hobby bubbas. What you are seeing here is actual light infantry T,T,&P’s, which closely resembles what we might possibly face in the future.
Belt kits have fallen out of favor in the mainstream because of mandatory modern body armor, and vehicle troop seats, neither of which you have to use. Since we are foot-mobile, we are free to wear a full belt kit again.
The irony is that guys that trained up old school in woodland forests, and jungles are more relevant to what we’re doing than all your (retired) high-speed bubbas with their mostly urban assault tactics.
So true. Forget the GWOT gear and go back to Vietnam!
Oh…and for anyone wondering about the ‘Basic Load’ principle on one’s person that Max was talking about, it’s also standard where I come from to have one day’s resupply (another basic load) of ammo in the ruck…..that’s a minimum. Typically, I recommend 1.5 days resupply (basic load plus 50%).
PT anyone?
Max, Thanks for the reply. I’ll have to play with both at once (BB in mail now) before rendering an opinion on the matter.
I served tail end of VN in Oki and P.I., spent a whole yr in jungle ops. We wore 4 of the old single M-14 pouches with 20 rd M-16 mags, just like in VN, 2 canteens/cups and a WW2 first aid kit in back with the canvas 1956 H-Harness, and WW2 haversack. When I got stateside to 2nd Recon Bn, Camp Lejeune, the only difference was the new 30 rd mags and pouches, and we carried VN rucks. This system is not unlike what you show today, your PLCE is still the best way to carry gear. I hip bruise easy from belts and went with a Brit Molle vest, but still have my old VN belt rig, to fall back on if this proves unsat.
Thanks for the detailed blog, new guys need this shit shown to them, piece by piece so they can understand how it works and fits together. Too much modern stuff just doesn’t work, it’s more for internet ninjas, and not basic grunt work.
Hey Justin, keep livin your life, the rest don’t mean shit.
As Max can attest, we carried 12 magazines (3 in each pouch, one set on each side although often we’d leave the right hand pouch empty) +1 in the rifle, moving on from there, I preferred to have my admin pouch in which I carried equipment relevant to my task and nothing more. Next up I had my mess/sustainment pouch which had a pair of mess tins, a hexamine stove, 2 boil in the bag meals, a few hot drinks, a few snacks and the most important part a bottle of tabasco. In addition to this I carried some wipes to get old cam cream off my face and to give my nasties a clean.
After that I had a 58 pattern water bottle + the cup it comes with. You can forgo the mess tins if you exchange the plastic up on the 58 pattern bottle with a metal cup. I also carried water sterilisation pills and a packet of screech (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Screech_Powder) which you can replace with some gatorade powder in the US.
All this was attached to a webbing belt and a DPM suspender set, some people preferred to move their buckle over to right behind their ammo pouches so when you RTR you don’t get smacked with a lump of plastic in your gut. It never bothered me too much. Total weight? No idea but thinking back to when I was slightly fitter, boy am I glad I was picture perfect healthy. I can’t imagine fighting in that load now without a month or 2 of PT to get my general health back up to standard.
You actually like Screech?
You’re weird!
I bet you were one of the few lads that also liked the butter scotch sauce pudding from the old rat packs as well.
SP
@Anonymous
Screech was f*cking gleaming, especially when the DS failed to wash the jerry cans out prior to refilling them and made the water taste odd. I was just about able to stomach 2 pinches of the stuff raw but drew the line at not sticking it up my nose. As for that butter scotch shit.. f*cking hell mate I forgot how atrocious that shit is I’d rather have a week of ROPs than eat that crap voluntarily, now offer me the pasta on meatballs and I’m your best friend for life.
I was in right around the same time as SF 0321. We carried a light load for the 16’s since we had mortar bombs to lug around. I still use the H harness with a metal clasp belt with butt pack and twin canteens. I cut up a shoulder rig and jury rigged a pistol shoulder harness attached to the H under the left armpit. Frees up some space on the belt and I would never place anything in the front to ram into my guts and groin when I face plant the dirt. We did use the bandoleers at times and they didn’t interfere too badly with dropping down, course they carried 20 not 30 rounders. I use East German surplus ak mag carriers mostly cause they were cheap but they do balance well and I cut the dividers out of one to use as a dump pouch. A little over 3 bucks each at cheaper than dirt means I can abuse them and they actually are well made. I can squeeze two on each side with the dump pouch cable tied to the outside of the left set toward the rear. -SemperFido
Yeah, when we old skool guys were training to fight off the commie horde in the woods of Deutschland, basic getup was a harness and belt with 2 ammo pouches and 210 rounds, 2 canteens with cups, GI issue flashlight, whistle, first aid kit, lensatic compass, and the “butt pack of life”, with assorted MRE parts, beverage mixes, and other sustenance goodies. After GWI they went to the vest setup which was the biggest pain in the ass, not to mention the torso when you had to hit prone… now it’s all desert desert desert with all the urban assault crap, and none of the new troops know how to operate in the woods. Something to think about I guess.
I was running a battle belt much like this before I got armor. I took the shoulder harness off the battle belt as straps were getting cumbersome. I’ve been running the belt cinched tight, not ideal. But with battle belt harness, pc straps, and a ruck on top it’s hard to shoulder my rifle without it feeling unstable against a set of straps. Max, any thoughts on strap management?
I don’t see it as an issue. First, the harness is critical to a full BB, so you have to have it. Then, back to my previous comments about armor/PC. and whether you will actually wear it or not. I have the option of wearing a clean PC, that is the most I will wear. For that, put the BB harness over the top of the PC, it will sit pretty well. Also, in colder weather and when wearing jackets/smocks, think about putting the armor/PC under the outer layer. That’s how we did it old school when there were no pouches all over the armor. Ruck or patrol pack – just goes on top.
Bottom line with this, if you are carrying too much weight for your physical ability, you will have trouble doing anything useful with your rifle anyway. Granted, I have commented that there is a certain amount of weight that must be carried, and it won’t be light (at least not tacticool light)., But the other side of that is don’t overload, don’t carry a full ruck, just travel light as possible (freeze at night), consider wearing armor or not, and up the PT so you can handle what you are carrying. Otherwise, you are an upturned tortoise, basically fucked.
If you are running a rifle with a hard slick butt plate and it’s landing on a strap buckle – that can be difficult. An inexpensive rubber pad will help with that. Good luck
Scofflaw
I used a similar setup overseas. Mags on left, grenades on the right. Pistol dropped from the trouser belt, if I bothered with it at all. Balances out quite well.
RyanOctober 17, 2013 at 6:48 PM quote:
“First of all there is absolutely nothing light about light Infantry.” unquote.
“Light” being that you don’t have trucks and MRAP’s to mount weapons and high-power sensors/comm’s on, go fast when there are roads/tracks, worry about fuel/range/maintenance, keep warm inside, carry a bunch of re-supply in, and hide behind. So much less to worry about! This could be extrapolated into being “Light infantry without air support or anything heavier than they can carry”. Being strong is good, because you all is going to hump some weight. Being smart and well-trained weighs nothing extra. Leadership also weighs nothing.
Thanks.
RyanOctober 17, 2013 at 6:48 PM quote “a Blackhawk Down scenario” unquote.
Which side are you planning to be on in Mogadishu? I think that the Warlords could have done better vs. a Big Army incursion with more training and coordination, and much better with a little bit more gear. As it went, it was an expensive success for the US forces (much more expensive than needed).
@ Diz: I don’t know if I’ve missed it in the discussions elsewhere, but thanks for pointing out why we went away from the BB idea in the first place. I work a couple jobs and don’t have time to read every blog around this part of the internet. Now the whole idea makes more sense. If you’re not vehicle based it makes more sense to keep weight around your hips for movement, up down etc. Wish I didn’t like my chest rig so much. Thanks though.
What is old is new again. Finally tried my ALICE pack with frame over my new BB with harness and it fit, well just like the Old Corps days minus the flak vest (which were good for blocking cold winds). Now I need to buy another single Taco to outfit mine like Max’s and maybe a canteen pouch with the Brit canteen and metal cup.
Now of course my BB and harness are the high speed $ things including a SO Tech Go Bag (fancy name for a butt pack), but the pack is old school ALICE with frame but with the addition of the HSGI Alipad which brings it to late 20th century levels. RRS
Old Corps?
Ever use a haversack/knapsack w/blanketroll (field transport pack)? That was Old Corps! From WWII to 1976 we carried our gear in a haversack (except in late VN when the tropical rucksack came out, forerunner of your ALICE pack) and it was actually a pretty good field pack. Wish I’d kept one.
No, you’re talking so Old Corp that Lee Armey was a boot then. rrs