Thoughts on clc and decision making

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  • This topic has 13 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Max. This post has been viewed 436 times
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    • #123555
      jriggs
      Participant

        I just finished finished my first CLC. One of the things that I noticed over the week was how difficult it was for me to wrap my head around a problem and then come up with a reasonable reaction to the problem. For example at one point we were wiped out by an ambush. Afterward in the debrief I was thinking “man I didn’t even realize it was an ambush”. This reminded me of a book I read in school called Sources of Power (Klein 1999). The book discusses how experts and novices make decisions. The model is called recognition primed decision (RPD) making .  Short version is that experts generally make good and timely decisions because they are better at identifying the important aspects of a situation. Experts also make accurate timely decisions because they have stored up multiple situations that they can compare the current situation to and simply implement the actions that worked for that problem. Both of these things are developed through experience.  Couple of points I take from this:
        1. You can’t fake experience.  It was obvious that students who had taken ClC before were making quicker more accurate decisions.
        2. CLC is a good way to start refining your tactical RPD. It is highly scenario based and forces you to identify the important parts of the problem. It also gives you experience so every problem in the future is not brand new to you.
        3. If you don’t do scenario based training when you need to make a tactical decisions you will likely be too slow to make decisions that will have an effect on the enemy or worse you will just make bad decisions.
        4. Taking one tactics class is not likely going to give you the experience you need. There is a benefit to taking the same class more than once.

        Team Rekkr

      • #123595
        Max
        Keymaster

          Thanks J. I’m about to post up about the Squad Tactics course we discussed at the AAR. You are absolutely right, and better to get shot in the head with AirSim, rather than moments into your first post-collapse firefight!

        • #123600
          JohnnyMac
          Participant

            Agreed. It’s also about (as you know only all too well) efficient/effective/timely communication.

            Knowing how to describe something so that everyone understands, and doing it with as few words as possible due to time constraints, will allow the team to implement the intentions of the leader.

            This gets into the whole OODA loop concept.

          • #123620
            wheelsee
            Participant

              JRiggs brings up a question for me.

              I wonder what the “cross-match” replication is?? IOW, if you’re already used to making critical observations/decisions in another field, how well does that cross-over to CLC??

              I use the phrase “people who make bad decisions, tend to make bad decisions”. While it may seem obvious, many staff in the ED don’t understand why we have the frequent flyers (cocaine abuse, meth OD, etc). Why would someone come in for an OD, be stabilized, discharged , and a week later, repeat the whole thing?? From my observations/experience – low impulse control leading to actions with negative consequences.

              IF, as I suspect, there is a cross-over ability, then it’s more a matter of stepping out of one’s comfort zone versus making really bad decisions. (NOT to be construed as always surviving the encounter)

              Did I go down a wrong road here??

            • #123626
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                Did I go down a wrong road here??

                I don’t think so, though maybe a related offshoot.

                The skill set of juggling large amounts of information and making a decision to act is the same. Though in my experience some have a harder time applying it to a situation outside of their established comfort zone.

                As most here should know realistic training is the best way to achieve this transition. Everyone can learn these skills, but like everything in life some have natural abilities.

              • #123630
                Mike Q
                Participant

                  Part of it is experience. The more you do something the better you get at it.

                  For example. Whatever your chosen profession when you first start it, even after college, you really don’t know much. But the more time you spend at it, the more experience you get, the easier it becomes. Also the more you’re exposed to screwed up situations the more you tend to learn. Participating in a perfect exercise doesn’t really teach me much, however being involved in a truly screwed up exercise teaches so much more.

                  Overcoming adversity is the key to growth. At least in my opinion.

                • #123631
                  wheelsee
                  Participant

                    Also the more you’re exposed to screwed up situations the more you tend to learn. Participating in a perfect exercise doesn’t really teach me much, however being involved in a truly screwed up exercise teaches so much more.

                    Overcoming adversity is the key to growth. At least in my opinion.

                    Bolded above for emphasis. Dang Mike, you hit the nail on the head on that one.

                    Just spent a weekend with a very old friend (we were groomsmen at each other’s weddings), both of us in Fire/EMS. Spent the weekend reminiscing….yep, all the screw-ups (those are SO easily remembered versus where we got it right). 35 years later, still remember when I screwed the pooch….

                  • #123633
                    jriggs
                    Participant

                      I think there is probably some crossover. All decision making is going to be driven to some extent by your cognitive abilities. I also think some people will be naturally better at making high stress decisions because of this. However at the end of the day I think experience is what makes the difference.
                      I’m sure when you first started in the medical field it took you longer to make accurate diagnosis and interventions. I would bet now that a lot of times a patient walks in and you have a good idea of what is going on right away (intuition/you know what to look for without thinking about it). Experience with previous patients gives you models to compare future patients to. Thus the more experience you have the faster and more accurate your decisions become.
                      There were definitely times at clc that costly decisions were made because of a lack of experience. He wasn’t illogical (like the drug addict) he just didn’t know what he didn’t know. Huge simplification of what goes into making decisions but experience does seem to play a big part and is something we have control over.

                      Team Rekkr

                    • #123677
                      hellokitty
                      Participant

                        IMO
                        CLC, and what we are training at, is unique and I am not sure cross over applies except in specific applications. For instance, first responders have experience on radios and have “radio discipline”, as in stay OFF the radio and talk in a calm voice. Also, we had a LEO in class that used his experience in controlling a hostage. All of that is experiences that crossed over. However, reacting to an ambush or contact? I dont beleive there are is any crossover. That has to be practiced “experienced” repeatedly.

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                      • #123703
                        wheelsee
                        Participant

                          The 4 stages of learning (anything)

                          https://www.processcoaching.com/fourstages

                          1. Unconscious incompetence – YDKWYDK
                          2. Conscious incompetence
                          3. Conscious competence
                          4. Unconscious competence – in the realm of MVT, think Max and Scott. They take in everything going on around them and make correct decisions without having to really think about it.

                        • #123759
                          Robert Henry
                          Participant

                            Part of it is experience. The more you do something the better you get at it.

                            For example. Whatever your chosen profession when you first start it, even after college, you really don’t know much. But the more time you spend at it, the more experience you get, the easier it becomes. Also the more you’re exposed to screwed up situations the more you tend to learn. Participating in a perfect exercise doesn’t really teach me much, however being involved in a truly screwed up exercise teaches so much more.

                            Overcoming adversity is the key to growth. At least in my opinion.

                            Well said.

                            Learning small unit tactics OJT is a recipe for disaster. This is why we must train and train regularly in these things.

                            www.jrhenterprises.com

                            Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                            Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                          • #123767
                            Pewtin
                            Participant

                              The 4 stages of learning (anything)

                              https://www.processcoaching.com/fourstages

                              1. Unconscious incompetence – YDKWYDK
                              2. Conscious incompetence
                              3. Conscious competence
                              4. Unconscious competence – in the realm of MVT, think Max and Scott. They take in everything going on around them and make correct decisions without having to really think about it.

                              Agree with the above, as well as what Mike Q said.
                              Learning the hard way, is sometimes the best way to remember what to avoid in the future.

                              Team Rekkr

                            • #123954
                              dave37
                              Participant

                                I was at CLC with @jriggs, and I think there were actually two different skillsets at work during the class. One is a general skill, that transfers into all areas of life, and one is specific to SUT. You need both in order to succeed. In short, you must be ABLE to make decisions under pressure, and you must also make the RIGHT decisions.

                                The first skill is simply the ability to continue analyzing information in realtime and making decisions based on that information, while under psychological and physical stress. It is one thing to make good decisions while you are calm and comfortable; it is quite another to make good decisions when you are exhausted and terrified. Most people, in my experience, tend to do very little when they are under extreme psychological stress; in other words, “the freeze”. I have seen it happen, both to myself and to others. I think practicing fighting, whether it is boxing, grappling, realistic scenario based self defense training, or Force on Force training, is one of the best ways to learn to function under pressure. But to speak to wheelsee’s point, it is a transferable skill, that you can learn in any high pressure job or situation. An EMT, an ICU nurse, a fireman, and an NFL quarterback are all learning to make decisions under pressure while practicing their chosen profession; and they all get good at it.

                                The second skill is relevant to whatever activity you are performing. An NFL quarterback may be completely calm when he’s caught in an L-shaped ambush, but if he doesn’t know that he needs to return fire and then peel out of the kill zone, he’s still going to die. If you want to be good at something, you have to practice that particular skill. However, if you haven’t learned to function under pressure, you will freeze up, and the skills won’t be there when you need them. Imagine someone who has read every tactical manual and watched every YouTube video coming under fire, and then trying to apply skills he learned only by reading and watching. He’s going to freeze up and die, just as fast as some guy who never heard of FM 7-8.

                                This is where Force on Force training pays extra dividends. You are learning the specific skills of light infantry tactics, which is relevant in a combat situation. But you are also learning to function while under psychological arousal and physical exhaustion, which is relevant in any high stress situation, in many different areas of life.

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                              • #123970
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  Good constructive comments here! :good:

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