Stocking up on Medications

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    • #91720
      hellokitty
      Participant

        Thought I would share some info on stocking up on medications for grid down situation. First off I am a licensed pharmacist. So I know a little bit about meds. However, pharmacists are generalists. We Generally know a bit about most meds, we are not specialists. Therefore, I would never try to tell a pediatrician what to prescribe to an infant, or an trauma doc what to prescribe for a stab wound, because they are Specialists. So if your gynecologist friend tells you something different for vaginal yeast, don’t give me shit. ?

        You should consider how long a grid down situation could last. Depending on length will determine what you are going to have to stock up on and how much. One thing that most folks don’t know is that pharmacies are just like grocery stores. Pharmacies only have 10-30 days worth of inventory on their shelves. When I say inventory I mean amount of medications that particular pharmacy dispenses. Pharmacies have distribution systems similar to grocery stores. Which means there is a limited supply of meds at a pharmacy at any one time. Some less used meds may not be there at all, pharmacy orders med instead of stocking each month. They have next day delivery from distribution centers. I would surmise that within 48hous or sooner the pharmacies will be cleaned out by looters when an event occurs. Nothing is more desperate than a person addicted to oxycodone. (BTW once these addicts run out of their oxycodone, they will be hitting every house in the area looking for the left over pain meds you have from your sex change operation. These are the zombies. The reason why you need community defense, therefore MVT training). I digress.

        So you need to stock up on the medications you and your family current take. I would start by keeping an extra month supply on hand at all times. This will be difficult because insurance companies will not pay. But you can get your physician to write prescriptions for an extra month or two of maintenance meds. You will have to pay cash since insurance will not cover. I doubt the physician will write for control substances due to prevalent abuse out there but think blood pressure, diabetic, anti depressants, asthma, COPD type of meds to keep you and your family alive for a short term Katrina type event.

        I hate to say this but in a prolong grid down event, meds are going to run out fast. Loved ones who are brittle will die. Think about a diabetic without insulin, or an asthmatic child, etc. Not a good situation. I know a lot of SHTF stuff out there stress getting antibiotics, pain meds, etc trauma type stuff for prolong event. But IMO you should focus first on meds your family will need. Stock up as much as you can now because you won’t have time once an event kicks off.

        One other thing, remember that MOST, not all, medication are still effective after the expiration date.

        This is just some general info that seems obvious but I believe is overlooked by most. Cheers

        HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
        HEAT 2 (CP) X1
        FOF X3
        OPFOR X2
        CLC X2
        RIFLEMAN

      • #91721
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          Great information!

          First off I am a licensed pharmacist.

          What advice would you give on proper storage?

          One other thing, remember that MOST, not all, medication are still effective after the expiration date.

          The DOD/FDA Shelf Life Extension Program has the best data available if you can find it.

          In the following Thread How Long Are Drugs Good For After The Expiration Date? has limited SLEP data.

        • #91722
          Mike Q
          Participant

            Hello kitty,
            I’m curious as to your opinion on fish antibiotics for shtf storage?

          • #91723
            jane
            Participant

              I highly recommend Patriot Nurse’s Medical Prep classes to learn how to diagnose ailments and determine & administer treatments, including antibiotics. I think there are others that teach this too, such as Doom & Bloom (Dr Bones/Nurse Amy). This is knowledge that you really need to know in case of a long-term collapse scenario.

              That said, many of the drug dependencies in our modern society are for completely avoidable things, such as metabolic disease (includes heart disease/hypertension/type II diabetes). It is better to prepare by changing the person’s diet & lifestyle rather than depending on a month or two’s supply of stocked up meds. You might not be able to reverse metabolic disease to a level of independence from these drugs in a month, but over time as the body repairs itself from years of damage from carbs and PUFAs.

            • #91724
              hellokitty
              Participant

                GWNS- store meds out of sunlight and somewhere between 45-75 degrees. Heat is not your friend.

                Mike Q- really don’t have any info on fish antibiotics. Although some fish antibiotics are the same antibiotics we take but in a different dosage form. So could be useful. I usually look for same info you do on that. They don’t cover that in pharmacy school ;)

                HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                FOF X3
                OPFOR X2
                CLC X2
                RIFLEMAN

              • #91725
                hellokitty
                Participant

                  GWNS- forgot to mention. Refrigerated items like insulin is going to be a problem. Once insulin is out of frig and at room temp it’s good for 30 days. So brittle diabetics will be in trouble in a prolonged collapse.

                  HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                  HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                  FOF X3
                  OPFOR X2
                  CLC X2
                  RIFLEMAN

                • #91726
                  HiDesertRat
                  Participant

                    On the topic of expiration dates and efficacy of drugs as noted by
                    hellokitty, I have used many expired drugs during medical missions to central america without any problems. They are used because they are expired and would normally discarded by hospitals otherwise. It helps to keep costs down for these forays into third world conditions. And as noted above, proper storage conditions are of paramount importance.
                    A caveat would be if there is obvious deterioration of the packaging, especally glass vials (think cracks) or discoloration of the contents which could be indications of contamination of the contents or degradation secondary to exposure to excessive heat or sunlight.
                    As a side note, I would hazard to say that of folks that are diabetic that had onset of their disease secondary to lifestyle choices i.e. obesity and poor diet selection, will because of limited caloric intake during SHTF scenario, over time, survive when they lose weight. Their is much historical information about how after WW2, most population groups had a very low incidence of diabetes and heart disease because of the conditions of frugal resources imposed upon them at the time. This will not apply to juvenile diabetes and such, unfortunately.

                  • #91727
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      As far as refrigeration goes consider your AO and possible alternatives.

                      In regards to improvised options the old fashion ice house in a properly built cellar. In the past ice has been stored for many months to as long as the next winter depending on AO.

                      Solar power options are legitimate possibilities, even if just for a small fridge if med storage is the prime concern.

                      Lessor known, but other options include propane and kerosene refrigerators and freezers. I like the old Servel propane ones because of storage life of propane if solar isn’t an option. I have seen older Servel ones go for as little as $50 up north.

                      Additionally propane and kerosene can be adapted to alcohol burners with proper research to correct for the lesser BTU’s alcohol has compared to other fuels.

                      If you are using improvised options consider acquiring a battery powered Cold Chain Monitor to keep track of storage conditions.

                      If refrigerated meds are a requirement for your family it’s going to take much research to find an option that works for your needs.

                    • #91728
                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                      Moderator

                        From the previously mentioned Thread How Long Are Drugs Good For After The Expiration Date?

                        Well, that’s complicated but I will try address it.

                        As usual: This does not constitute medical advice. It is for reference only and should only be used if there are no medical assets available and the benefits outweigh the risks.

                        First off: Read these and see what you think. This is where I am getting my info.

                        http://www.ofcaems.org/ds-Stability_Profiles.pdf (WORTH PRINTING)
                        https://slep.dmsbfda.army.mil/slep/slep_info_paper_JAN_2006.doc

                        I unfortunately do not have access to the Shelf Life Extension Program which is the authority on this stuff.

                        It is well known that drugs are good beyond their shelf life. How much? Well that depends on what the drug is and how it is stored. An antibiotic oral liquid will degrade faster than the same antibiotic in its pure, powdered form sealed in a glass injection bottle. Throw in temperature variations and it is hard to predict. Biologicals (vaccines, epogen) degrade quickly. I have cut and pasted the following since they have some common meds that you might use on there to give you an idea of how long you can keep them.

                        Keep in mind that even after the extended dates, the meds may still be suitable for use but just not as potent.

                        There are some cases of meds that turn toxic over time. I will try and track them down and post them as I find them. One that comes to mind are the Tetracyclines (doxycycline, minocycline, et al.) I will tell you that in my previous research I found that it probably was the first generation tetras that turned toxic and it may have been manufacturing contamination. (like what happened with Agent Orange)

                        THE FORMAT WOULD NOT STAY IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM.

                        The table provided below represents a number of products tested over several years in the FDA/DoD SLEP.

                        Table 1. Sample of SLEP Testing History
                        Product(1stNumber)Orig Exp(2ndNumber)AVerage Extension(3rdNumber)Total

                        Atropine So4 2mg/ml, 25ml multidose 2 years 13 years 15 yrs
                        Atropine 2mg/0.7ml Autoinjector 5 years 5 years 10 years
                        Atropine Sulfate Inhalation Aerosol 4 years 4 years 8 years
                        Pralidoxime Cl 600mg/2ml Autoinjector 5 years 13 years 18 yr
                        Pyridostigmine Bromide 30mg tablets 5 years 5 years 10 years
                        Diazepam 10mg/2ml Autoinjector 4 years 5 years 9 years
                        Doxycycline 100mg tablets 2 years 5 years 7 years
                        Ciprofloxacin 500mg tablets 3 years 10 years 13 years
                        Sodium Nitrite 300mg/10ml vial or amp 2 years 8 years 10 years
                        Sodium Thiosulfate 12.5gm/50ml vial 2 years 14 years 16 years

                        NOT IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER
                        First number is average number of months extended, second is the complete range.

                        (1st Number) Average Months (2nd Number) Range Months

                        Amoxicillin sodium Tablets 23, 22–23
                        Ciprofloxacin Tablets 55 , 12–142
                        Diphenhydramine HCl Syringe-needlea 76 , 33–126
                        Doxycycline hyclate Capsulesb 50, 37–66
                        Doxycycline hyclate Powderb 27, 14–52
                        Halothane Liquid 67, 51–92
                        Mannitol Injection-solution 66, 21–109
                        Morphine sulfate Syringe-needlec 89, 35–119
                        Naloxone HCl Injection-solution 77, 60–95
                        Oxacillin sodium Powder 56 , 28–116
                        Potassium iodide Tabletsd 69, 28–184
                        Sodium bicarbonate Injection-solution 55, 14–101
                        Sodium chloride Irrigatione 72, 40–108
                        Sodium nitrite Injection-solution 89, 35–180
                        Sodium thiosulfate Injection-solution 131, 24–151
                        Ampicillin Capsulesa 49, 22–64
                        Amyl nitrite Inhalant 59 , 37–76
                        Atropine sulfate-pralidoxime cl2 Autoinjector 31 , 25–38
                        Calcium chloride Injection-solution 81 , 66–106
                        Calcium glucepate Injection-solution 49 , 23–82
                        Cephalexin Capsules 57, 28–135
                        Cimetidine HCl Tabletsb 67 , 59–75
                        Ciprofloxacin Suspensionc 32, 25–40
                        Dexamethasone sodium phosphate Syringe-needle 61, 24–93
                        Enflurane Liquid 48, 15–94
                        Ephedrine sulfate Injection-solution 46, 21–80
                        Fentanyl citrate Injection-solution 84 , 70–96
                        Guaifenesin ER Tablets 85 , 39–122
                        Hetastarch in sodium chloride Injection- 44 , 30–61
                        Hexachlorophene cleansing Emulsion 81, 58–106
                        Iothalamate meglumine Injection-solution 51, 20–78
                        Ketamine HCl Injection-solution 64 , 42–87
                        Mebendazole Tablets 58 , 28–89
                        Meperidine HCl Injection-solution 89 , 32–128
                        Phenytoin sodium Injection-solution 63 , 29–100
                        Potassium iodide Granulesd 254, 225–278
                        Povidone-iodine Ointmente 65 , 35–134
                        Promethazine HCl Injection-solution 51 , 28–73
                        Triamterene and hydroclorothiazide Capsules 19, 18–19
                        Undecylenic Acid and zinc salt Powder 68 , 43–82

                        Acetaminophen pseudophedrine Capsules 24, 24–24
                        Benzonatate Capsules 44 , 12–73
                        Bretylium tosylate Injection-solution 49 , 15–71
                        Bupivacaine HCl Injection-solution 88 , 79–95
                        Ceftriaxone sodium Powder 60 , 44–69
                        Chloroquine HCl Injection-solution 64 , 27–98
                        Chlorpromazine HCl Injection-solutiona 74, 59–88
                        Dextrose 10% Injection-solution 25 , 23–29
                        Dextrose and sodium chloride Injection 64 , 51–73
                        Dobutamine HCl Injection-solution 47 , 29–79
                        Edrophonium chloride Injection-solution 65 , 33–114
                        Erythromycin lactobionate Powder 60, 38–83
                        Hydrocortisone sodium succinate Inject 43 , 37–56
                        Mafenide acetate Cream 59 , 56–63
                        Mepivacaine HCl Cartridge-needle 41, 33–45
                        Naproxen Tablets 52 , 46–62
                        Neostigmine methylsulfate Injection-solution 60 , 31–78
                        Penicillin G benzathine Suspension 70, 61–84
                        Phenylephrine HCl Injection-solution 60 , 53–78
                        Prochloroperazine edisylate Injection 43 , 28–66
                        Protamine sulfate Powder 64 , 57–77
                        Sulfisoxazole Tablets 56, 45–68
                        Tubocurarine chloride Injection-solution 59 , 47–69

                        There are more meds on the list but everything after table 1 A,B,C had more variability in the failure

                      • #91729
                        HiDesertRat
                        Participant

                          I am curious about what the forum members will do with some of the medications listed in the above lists, expired or not. If they do not have professional, first hand experience in regards to their use, side effects, adverse reactions, etc., not to mention the intended results of the properties they possess and exert upon the human body, in other words, how they interfere with normal function of our body, bad things will result if one cannot deal with the resultant consequences. In no particular order and with just a cursory look at the list, the following will, without much effort, become as fatal as a bullet:

                          Enflurane
                          Halothane
                          Fentany
                          Meperidine
                          Chlorpromazine
                          Tubocurarine

                          There is no denying that having such items in your cache is a great idea but only if someone in your group is knowledgable in their use. I say this because I honor the intent and resolve of the members here that contribute their expertise and hard won experience for the benefit of all and wish to see no undo harm result.

                        • #91730
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            In no particular order and with just a cursory look at the list, the following will, without much effort, become as fatal as a bullet:

                            It’s important to remember the list provided was a partial representation of the SLEP data, not a shopping list.

                            There is no denying that having such items in your cache is a great idea but only if someone in your group is knowledgable in their use.

                            We should keep our pre-event stocks to legal options within our capabilities, training, and experience.

                            Possible post-event stockpiling of key medical supplies that are beyond our capabilities could have merit for both barter use and resupply of properly trained individuals.

                            I suspect in many SHTF events it maybe possible to find people; possibly refugees, that have useful medical skills that due to circumstances no longer possess essential supplies.

                            I also can’t rule out the possibility of attempting a medical procedure outside of training due to extreme necessity in a post-event society where to do nothing would be certain death.

                            I truly hope to never be in that situation.

                          • #91731
                            Skittles
                            Participant

                              Myalldaychemist.com has real meds foil packed and for sale if you have never looked at their site.

                            • #91732
                              Skittles
                              Participant

                                And not just antibiotics. Heart meds, cgoleterol meds, all the way to ED meds. May have to find the latin names and or sub out generics but they have a lit. IR allegra wont pop up but the latin name or main activr ingredients name will.

                              • #91733
                                HiDesertRat
                                Participant

                                  @ G.W.N.S.

                                  Well said, I concur.

                                  Interestingly, you wrote:

                                  I also can’t rule out the possibility of attempting a medical procedure outside of training due to extreme necessity in a post-event society where to do nothing would be certain death.

                                  It reminds me the story of Ferdinand Demara, who impersonated a surgeon on board HMCS Cayuga during the Korean war. He actually performed surgery, quite complex in fact, on casualties brought aboard. None died. He would run off to seclusion, read up on the particular topic at hand, and go to surgery and perform. A true testament of human achievement in the face of adversity.

                                  As an interesting footnote, I know of someone who had to procure illicit drugs for pain control because of the absence of analgesics during the latter part of a mission. Unlawful perhaps, but it served for the greater good. Life always knows when to pitch that curve ball at the right moment, as veterans here can attest to. May we all have the wisdom and tenacity to do the right thing.

                                • #91734
                                  HiDesertRat
                                  Participant

                                    And a final thought, my dear wife reminds me that we too, have an expiration date stamped upon our souls as well… in this realm

                                  • #91735
                                    Max
                                    Keymaster

                                      Great info! FWIW, we have used fish antibiotics (amoxicillin). It was effective and we will cont to do so.

                                      FWIW here is a dosing guideline for Tylenol and Motrin we hand out to parents in the ER
                                      http://pediatricphysicianspc.com/images/dosing.jpg

                                    • #91736
                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                      Moderator

                                        One option to acquire controlled medications is if you are a ocean cruiser (sailboat, yacht, etc…). It is not unheard of for people to to have to do advanced medical procedures using comms for advice.

                                        There are pre-built med kits available, but are costly for what you get.

                                        It is easier to build one yourself with the cooperation of a friendly doctor.

                                        I know this is applicable for a small minority of us, but worth noting.

                                      • #91737
                                        trailman
                                        Participant

                                          Myalldaychemist.com has real meds foil packed and for sale if you have never looked at their site.

                                          What’s the validity of sites like this one? I mean we all hear about buying your stuff from Mexico. What’s the quality of meds from all day chemist?

                                          I looked into buying cash once for SOME meds and Jesus Christo. $4 a dose is pretty much out of it for stocking up.

                                        • #91738
                                          Wild Bill
                                          Participant

                                            You might check out SURVIVAL MEDICAL SUPPLIES EMERGENCY FIRST AID MILITARY GEAR http://deepsurvival.co/

                                          • #91739
                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                            Moderator

                                              You might check out SURVIVAL MEDICAL SUPPLIES EMERGENCY FIRST AID MILITARY GEAR http://deepsurvival.co/

                                              I’ve been looking for this in older posts, thanks Wild Bill.

                                            • #91740
                                              Wild Bill
                                              Participant

                                                @G.W.N.S. — Tom aka @deepsurvival mentioned that he might do a discount for people on this forum; those that are interested might checkout his website and discuss your needs and see how he might be able to help you.

                                              • #91741
                                                Max
                                                Keymaster

                                                  Code “maxvelocity” = 20% off all orders –DeepSurvival

                                                • #91742
                                                  Wild Bill
                                                  Participant

                                                    @deepsurvival :good:

                                                  • #91743
                                                    Skittles
                                                    Participant

                                                      Myalldaychemist was recommended to me by a dr who i know. I trust him. As far as validity it comes professionally packed with company names on the foil. Between that and petsmart fish antibiotics ill take their product. If you do the research they seem pretty credible. Or you can grow moldy bread and scrape it off i suppose. Its just a resource. Use it or dont.

                                                    • #91744
                                                      trailman
                                                      Participant

                                                        Myalldaychemist was recommended to me by a dr who i know. I trust him.

                                                        Thanks, that’s what I was looking for. I’m not interested in the antibiotics at the moment but other drugs, BP, heart, etc. I’m going for my annual in a week or so and am going to run it by my GP. He’s a pretty good guy.

                                                      • #91745
                                                        Skittles
                                                        Participant

                                                          Most drugs here in the US are made in Mexico or India. These guys are mostly Indian made products. But they are pretty legit from what ive been able to research. Could be sugar coated dog shit pills but from everything i have found they are the real deal.

                                                        • #91746
                                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                          Moderator

                                                            These guys are mostly Indian made products.

                                                            I have no experience with online orders, but have been completely satisfied with medication I purchased in India. Most of my current stocks I purchased there.

                                                          • #91747
                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                            Moderator

                                                              Code “maxvelocity” = 20% off all orders –DeepSurvival

                                                              Thank you for this support! :yes:

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