Special Purpose Shotgun Rounds

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    • #108526
      SeanT
      Keymaster

        Anyone have first hand experience with Special Purpose Shotgun Rounds?

        If so, please share brands/types/designs that you have used/tested.

        I understand the powdered metal breaching rounds. I am more interested in the flares, rubber balls, fleshette, beanbags, etc. With the discussion on in other threads about protests etc, some less than lethal options that actually work for their intended purpose would be useful. I know skipping rubber buckshot off the street into the legs of a mob makes them move, but then what?
        Personal self defense in a mob I think is comprised of fluid options. I also think if you deploy plan A, you better have plan B or more.

      • #108527
        xsquidgator
        Participant

          My understanding of when LEOs use the less-lethal stuff is that they only use it when there’s a for-real armed backup right there to protect the guy with the less-lethal stuff, in case the less-lethal stuff isn’t stopping the threat. From what I’ve seen, the stuff like rubber buckshot, beanbags etc is that they *may* work against an opponent with ordinary levels of pain tolerance and motivation. “It may work” is not up there good enough to bet your life on.
          However, the less-lethal stuff could be lethal if it hit someone in the right spot or he/she had a medical condition, or some combination of factors like that. Unfortunately for us regular folks, use of less-lethal still is seen by the justice system as using deadly force.

          That said, so long as the user understands that, I can imagine situations where I’d like to have the option of something like that to avoid having to truly use deadly force. Perhaps post-SHTF the legal concerns would be much less of a concern, and would make it the rubber buckshot or whatever more feasible.

          Another thing that I think would be useful in the same vein might be the pepper-spray paintball rounds, although I’m guessing those are LE only items. I’d feel a lot better about being able to use those to try and disperse an angry crowd, and perhaps prevent it from getting more serious… something not coming out of a 12 gauge though.

          Has anyone seen the Jackass episode where Johnny Knoxville got to try out one of the 12 gauge beanbag rounds? (raises hand guiltily, yes I watched Jackass on occasion) :-)
          Didn’t look like anything I’d want to try.

        • #108528
          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
          Moderator

            Before I address the exotic 12 ga ammo.

            In early days of OEF Afghanistan they experimented with FN 303® Less Lethal (basically a highend paintball gun).

            The shoulder-fired FN 303® less lethal launcher can reach targets with an extreme accuracy up to 50 meters away. Using compressed air in a refillable, ergonomic bottle to launch projectiles, the FN 303® fires semi automatically from a 15-round magazine allowing rapid multiple engagements.

            Air refilling systems, optical sight, tactical vest, tactical carrying bag, or tactical sling are part of the range of accessories available on demand.

            The FN 303® projectile has been specifically designed to ensure optimum accuracy with maximum effectiveness and minimum risk. It delivers a sufficiently dissuasive level of pain within the projectile’s impact zone to disable targets. Depending on the selected projectile, it can also, in addition to the initial impact, release a washable/indelible paint or a substance with an irritating effect.

            All the projectiles have the same trajectory and the same point of impact.

            A popular story related to me by the Force Protection guys is that a Guard tower engaged a Afghani with the 303 to encourage him to keep his distance. The Afghani was so incensed that he returned with a AK and was then killed by Security Force. Sometimes nonlethal is just delaying a lethal response.

            I am quite concerned about using “Riot Control” rounds as a citizen (Pre-Event) as far as legality and possible litigation, but really don’t know real details.

            Flares are available in a variety of colors and burn durations. Not a terrible incendiary and they do bounce surprisingly well. Most have a relatively low velocity.

            Rubber rounds are easily deadly dependent on range and where it strikes target. Basically pain compliance.

            Fleshettes in 12 ga are poor performers in deadly force situations, they are a effective pain compliance and disabling round, but would be very concerned about litigation “Pre-Event.”

            12 ga Beanbag rounds are like rubber bullets but with less reach, so good for much closer range use. At extreme close range can be deadly.

            12 Gauge Flash Thunder in theory could be used like flash bans at a distance. Again can be lethal.

            12 Ga Pepper Blast I would use large canister pepper spray before even considering these.

            At one time or another I have played with pretty much all of the 12 ga exotics.

          • #108529
            SeanT
            Keymaster

              @squid

              NMo way I would consider these without the proper lethal options immediately available. I consider a shotgun , especially if it is a special purpose tool like a shorty, just another utility option. We use one to dispatch large sharks when we catch them for the table ( Mako).

              Thanks Joe for the input. I do understand that the specialty rounds can be lethal, again was looking for input on useful tools.

            • #108530
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                …again was looking for input on useful tools.

                I am a fan of 12 ga shotguns for the variety of uses they can perform. At CQB ranges they are a very effective tool for those willing to invest the time training. Learning to keep it reloaded is a major consideration.

                For those that have squared away their rifle skills first, should consider learning the shotgun as a option.

                Slight drift from SeanT’s question.

                I have considered the Gator Shotgun Spreader.

                Paradigm SRP’s GATOR is a modern version of the Duckbill shotgun spreader that was used in Vietnam by the US Navy SEALs. The original Duckbill spreader proved to be extremely effective and deadly in close quarter combat environments. Although very effective, the Duckbill spreader did have a propensity to fracture after extensive use. Paradigm SRP has overcome the Duckbill’s original issues by totally re-engineering, yet still keeping its combat effectiveness.

                For those familiar with the book “Point Man” (worth reading)

                Chief “Patches” Watson holding his duckbill shotgun used in Vietnam (left), and our GATOR equipped shotgun.

                Like its predecessor, the GATOR is designed to be most effective when using #4 lead buckshot, which allows it to spread into an optimal pattern that enhances ones ability to put lead on target. NOTE: The GATOR has been tested with 00 Buck, but we do not recommend its use due to the potential for poor pattering. STEEL SHOT OR SLUGS SHOULD NEVER BE USED.

                Spreads shot up to 6 feet at 12 yards
                Reduces felt recoil
                Easily installed on any choke equipped shotgun
                Door breaching capable

                Obviously a specialty tool, but interesting.

              • #108531
                Corvette
                Participant

                  I use some of the non-lethal 12 ga. shells for chasing Grizzly and Black Bears out of the yard, buildings, and back of trucks. They work fine for that, I just am careful to have the next rounds fully lethal if needed.

                  I am ashamed to admit that I have killed animals with the 12 ga. flares. It works, just is gross.

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