Replacing Democracy

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    • #89441
      Max
      Keymaster

        This is a hard one, and something I have thought about often, but I don’t (yet) have an answer. Perhaps there is no answer?

        I simply don’t agree with democracy. I think it is nightmare rule by the mob. Interestingly, when joining the British Army and getting security clearances, you have to swear that you agree with Democracy. To me, the US is a Constitutional Republic, with democracy simply the chosen means to select representatives to allow the current system to operate.

        But look where we are with current democracy, and the types that have been elected to congress. This is a far cry from the small democracy visualized by the enlightenment philosophers who were behind the thinking that created the Constitution – the idea of a small village gathering in the square to vote on matters. Now, ‘democracy’ will bring the country down.

        I don’t have an answer. Surely anything else will just be more tyranny, but rather than the mo, that of individuals or small groups. The idea of a ‘lawgiver’ is an enlightenment one, where someone will come in and make the laws and get the country on it’s feet, then hand over the reins to the people in the form of democracy. Some would choose Trump as that man, judging by the MAGA train!

        So I don’t know what alternatives there are other than greater tyranny. But I may have a little bit of a clue. Perhaps the issue lies with the way we have government nowadays – large, and authoritarian – so we are looking for a way to continue an authoritarian government but simply with a method other than democracy? That may be barking up the wrong tree.

        We can use the principle of Rightful Liberty as our guide. Bottom line, I despise being told what to do, and would only expect someone to do so if I was harming others. Democracy just lets a huge amount of people I don’t know, and don’t like or respect, tell me what to do. How much of my money they have decided to extort from me today, to give to redistribution that I do not believe in.

        So maybe if we simply reduce government, then there will be less need for elected representatives, and thus no need for democracy? Everyone just do your own thing, under Rightful Liberty.

        Yes, there is something in that, but it is also realistic with a country of 315 million crammed in here. You run into problems of enforcement of those who will not abide by rightful liberty, and then you get factions, and warlords, and all the rest of human nature. But at the same time, I am ruled right now by 50% of the idiots who decide to vote for socialism, or whatever.

        Wouldn’t it be great to have the Constitution, and minimum government, and no taxes, and just get on with our lives?

        Discuss.

      • #89442
        Roadkill
        Participant

          John Adams wrote,”There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”
          FRANKLIN stated,”We give you a republic…if you can keep it.”
          I’m afraid we haven’t done our due diligence in keeping it.
          What’s to be done is a great question. I believe the answer is two parted. One is at the family level. What will my family and I do to navigate within the circumstances that are presented us. Think about the bartering food stuffs for survival in Venezuela. This seems to be the defensive side of the picture.
          The second what are the offensive measures to correct things. This is I believe the million dollar question.
          Unfortunately I don’t have the answer for that. There have been many suggestions, but leadership I believe will be the key.
          Just my thoughts, I hope someone can come up with something because I believe we are on the precipice and being pushed over the edge by a bulldozer.

        • #89443
          wesmc
          Participant

            Those who believe in the idea of the rugged, hard-working, independent individual are becoming fewer with each passing day. That’s just reality and there is no answer in the short term. Maybe in a few hundred years, after a good round of violence, things will turn around? I hate to sound pessimistic, but I just saw a drug addict staggering down Main Street of my town (Oak Hill, WV). A city cop showed up, saw what was going on with the idiot holding up traffic, and did nothing. We just had a municipal election, yesterday, for city council and mayor, in which I ran for council, and none of those wishing to do something about the drug/criminal problem were elected. Instead, the same bunch of feable-minded folks who are all about “helping” the “poor” were re-elected. There were two new additions to council but they are cut from the same mold as the others. I’m sorry to go on about the problems of my town, but I believe this is just a microcosm of the country.

          • #89444
            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
            Moderator

              We can use the principle of Rightful Liberty as our guide.

              While I agree completely in Rightful Liberty I am quite disturbed by my recent encounters in Parler and how few are willing to oppose censorship!

              This after being on the receiving end of such Censorship themselves for years!

              Obviously I’ve known this, but to see it action; or inaction, is a stark reality.

              These shortsighted people that actively support such tyranny are a minority, but the average person has become dulled to the fact of censorship as a normal thing and seem willing to ignore it’s existence as long as it is directed at the other guy.

              Replacing one problem for another is the most likely result.

              Though in no way does this mean we shouldn’t attempt change.

            • #89445
              JohnnyMac
              Participant

                I think it’s a super complicated subject, so much so that I don’t really feel qualified enough to provide anything more than some of my opinions. Where possible, I try to avoid suggesting solutions, as I’m sure subject matter experts could provide better solutions.

                1) I think a constitutional republic is a good form of government, as a general framework

                2) I think congress should have term limits

                3) I think current campaign financing rules allow for relatively easy corruption of our politicians

                4) At the local level, I find it near impossible to make an educated decision on who to vote for

                5) I think our electoral system encourages two parties and that we would be well served by a different voting system that encourages many parties. Social decision theory is a whole domain of expertise, so I’m not going to suggest how to do it better.

                6) I think it should be much harder to create a law. We have too many already.

                7) I don’t know exactly why, but I think we have too much of our population in jail, and I don’t think it’s because “people are worse these days”

              • #89446
                hellokitty
                Participant

                  I don’t believe the founding father’s concept, and creation, of a republic was unsound. What I firmly have faith in is the ability of all Humans to fuck things up. The US is no different. The US almost imploded during Civil War. Based on history, there is no reason to expect the US to last any longer than any other government in past. Its inevitable.

                  HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                  HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                  FOF X3
                  OPFOR X2
                  CLC X2
                  RIFLEMAN

                • #89447
                  wesmc
                  Participant

                    @JohnnyMac, I like the way you think. You’re right. It is a super complicated subject, but I’m not so sure the subject matter experts could provide any better solutions.

                  • #89449
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      Unfortunately I don’t see any significant change without a painful reset of some sort.

                      What form of reset has been theorized by many here and elsewhere.

                      I pray I am wrong.

                    • #89450
                      Lloyd
                      Participant

                        Unfortunately, the “experts” are the ones that have f*cked things up to where they are today.

                        I decided about 25 years ago that about 95% of the time, anybody who would seek public office, or any position of “authority” over others, is EXACTLY the kind of person who should never be allowed to have any position of “authority” over others.

                        I put “authority” in quotes because the whole concept is sort of borderline insane, if you really think about it.

                        Edit to add: Though I agree in principal with pretty much everything in the video above, I admit that TRUE “Freedom” is pretty much a myth in and of itself, and is essentially unobtainable with any group of human beings larger than 1.

                        I think the BEST we could ever hope for would be something like what the (flawed) Constitution was supposedly attempting to give us.

                      • #89451
                        JohnnyMac
                        Participant

                          the “experts”

                          Experts are not politicians or decision makers. The only thing politicians are experts in is wiggling their way into power.

                          Why do we go to the doctor? Or why would you go to a cardiologist, when there are other doctors out there. It’s because they are subject matter experts and you have faith that their specific knowledge and experience will lead to a better outcome.

                          Are experts sometimes wrong? Absolutely! We’re only human. But that’s no reason to not strongly consider the expert’s opinion.

                          Edit: some politicians are probably SMEs in stuff too, as some of them have achieved much before their politic life

                        • #89452
                          Andrew
                          Participant

                            The “Democracy” the Leftist/Liberal/Progressive/Communists want is one where the 49% (or less) is ruled by and slaves to the 51%. The 49% will pay for it all to support the 51%.

                            The current Left wing crop in Congress is already making no bones about if they get control they will disarm the general public. History teaches us how that works out.

                            They only ones to see improvement in their living conditions or adding to their wealth will be those who control the 51%.

                            Not a good situation for the 49%.

                          • #89453
                            gatlinggun
                            Participant

                              From what I seen, the vast majority of the “patriot” movement is poisoned by statist thinking. Its all we’ve ever known.

                              An example from my own brain. When I stand on my front walk and see someone driving by my house clearly exceeding the “speed limit” I think “The cops need to pull him over and extort some money from him”.

                              The reality is if the driver is in full control of the car and does not run over anyone or damage anyone’s property then there is no crime and he can continue on his merry way.

                              Is it prudent to exceed the speed limit? Probably not. But if there is no damage to persons or property, in the view of the original Common Law of the original “united States”, there is no crime.

                              But I’ve been conditioned all my life to think that some evil has taken place and so that evil doer should pay. That is statist thinking and I fight the conditioning every day.

                            • #89448
                              Anonymous
                              Inactive

                                Our Founders created the Union as a republic, with democracy at the state and local level – Jefferson called the states themselves the laboratories of democracy. The issue is that the populations of these states have exploded since then, and the scale of democracy was never taken into account. A corrupt politician whose electorate is 2000 people is much more vulnerable than a politician whose electorate is 200000, and a corrupt town government is much easier to displace than the state or federal government.

                                The issue isn’t that democracy is inherently bad, it’s that it doesn’t scale well, so whenever possible democracy be local and direct. This inefficiency is a trait that affects everything from businesses, governments, social welfare programs, even biology – the larger and more complicated a system gets the less capable it is to adapting to change.

                                The fact that federal officials such as Congressmen/women and the President are so powerful should be viewed as a problem to tackle rather than a characteristic. Looking back into history, the calls for democratization of the federal government could be seen as a response to the loss of power from democratic state and local governments to a non-democratic republican federal government, I’m sure everyone here is already familiar with the Federalist/Anti-Federalist debates.

                                I’ll openly admit my thoughts regarding democracy are influence by my experiences in Rojava, but I think we could learn a thing or two, or rather re-learn it, since Murray Bookchin directly drew upon New England town halls as an influence.

                                Basically as much power as possible is devolved to local, directly democratic local councils, from zoning, property disputes, etc. Even the socialist bits like universal health care are handled at the local level – the goal is to make each commune (neighborhood) have health care autonomy rather than a centralized system like the NHS. Only when an issue can’t be resolved at the local level does it go up to the district and cantonal level, it’s bottom-up rather than top-down. Most of the federal government in Rojava basically only exists to deal with external issues such as diplomacy and defense. (I really wish more lefties stateside would think like this, then maybe we could have a productive conversation.)

                                This is basically what our Founders realized, and later generations progressively forgot, and now the progressives tell us is impossible to implement in the present day because people are dying from a lack of food/health care, housing, birth control, whatever from the federal government.

                                That video is an hour, though it’s split into sections to make things easier, here’s a Haaretz article too, although it’s a bit too uncritical.

                                https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-amid-syria-s-darkness-a-democratic-egalitarian-and-feminist-society-emerges-1.7339983?fbclid=IwAR3SysCDuoY6KcC2CC7DYwhv0EQajqDv0VR2Xaph7o_kl8AyZF5h-B3sU9o

                                (If you can understand the leftese it’s a bit easier, understand this is a formerly Maoist movement switching to a more anarchist ideology.)

                                IMO the only way we can save our union before the system breaks down into violence would be more municipalism/decentralization, communities governing themselves as they see fit, as it stands right now our top-down “democracy” is being wielded as a tool by groups both left and right at the state and federal level to force people to follow their ideals. I fell for Obamamania when I was in college and now we’re seeing the same kind of blind MAGA loyalism under Trump. Urban and rural communities are always going to have different wants and needs, we need a system that can permit each to live how they want without attacking the other, otherwise we’re looking at a collapse into violence.

                                As I don’t see any movement from the right or the left in this direction, all I can do is buy weapons, ammo, and supplies and prepare for the worst.

                              • #89454
                                wheelsee
                                Participant

                                  “career” politicians are part of the problem. One should NEVER come out of office a millionaire (unless one went in as a billionaire, :yes: ). I do agree with Shooter – ANYONE seeking office is a red flag for me (especially at the national level) as it tends to be a power trip. So, the solution may lie in who “runs” (no one runs, all a write-in vote) or in limiting everyone to 2 terms and repealing the 17th Amendment.

                                  Another issue is local government. Drop all salaries to 10% below the “public comparable” and drop the civil retirement system (ours are guaranteed, by the taxpayer, an 8% ROI). Council members, mayor, etc are all held personally liable for their decisions (I’m still waiting on a public swimming pool that the voters approved, 6 years ago – lying pol). Repeal eminent domain. ANY proposal in direct violation of Constitutional law dies, right there, right now.

                                  just a few swirling around in my head……

                                • #89455
                                  Lloyd
                                  Participant

                                    …ANY proposal in direct violation of Constitutional law dies, right there, right now.

                                    Therein lies the problem… The “flaw” in the Constitution is that the shitbags in power ignore, subvert, and “interpret” the Constitution to death all day every day – with NO CONSEQUENCES. So all that Constitution really amounts to is “pretty words” and a propaganda tool to be used against us suckers.

                                    Are ANY of these things constitutional, by an HONEST person’s standards?

                                    – ANY gun law that affects anything short of crew-served or WMD
                                    – Property tax on non-commercial property
                                    – Korean “war”
                                    – Vietnam “war”
                                    – Iraq “war”

                                    …I could go ON AND ON AND ON, but those just popped into my head.

                                  • #89456
                                    Robert
                                    Participant

                                      “career” politicians are part of the problem. One should NEVER come out of office a millionaire (unless one went in as a billionaire, :yes: ). I do agree with Shooter – ANYONE seeking office is a red flag for me (especially at the national level) as it tends to be a power trip. So, the solution may lie in who “runs” (no one runs, all a write-in vote) or in limiting everyone to 2 terms and repealing the 17th Amendment.

                                      Another issue is local government. Drop all salaries to 10% below the “public comparable” and drop the civil retirement system (ours are guaranteed, by the taxpayer, an 8% ROI). Council members, mayor, etc are all held personally liable for their decisions (I’m still waiting on a public swimming pool that the voters approved, 6 years ago – lying pol). Repeal eminent domain. ANY proposal in direct violation of Constitutional law dies, right there, right now.

                                      just a few swirling around in my head……

                                      My son and I were just talking about this the other day.

                                      To include an NDA or similar agreement that the senator/rep could not work for, consult for, etc. any organization for a minimum period of X years after they are done. To avoid being a lobbyist for greenpeace, bayer/monsanto or whoever.

                                    • #89457
                                      Robert
                                      Participant

                                        The unfortunate reality is not Amerika returning to a Constitutional Republic but Amerika breaking up into multiple different nations like Yugoslavia or USSR.

                                      • #89458
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          The unfortunate reality is not Amerika returning to a Constitutional Republic but Amerika breaking up into multiple different nations like Yugoslavia or USSR.

                                          Certainly a possibility, but not necessarily a bad thing if you can help your area become a Liberty zone.

                                        • #89459
                                          Andrew
                                          Participant

                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)

                                            Certainly a possibility, but not necessarily a bad thing if you can help your area become a Liberty zone.

                                            Lots of opportunities there to actually control who comes into your new country or state and refuse entry to those who have the California, Western Oregon, NY, New England, and Northern Illinois mindset.

                                          • #89460
                                            Ronald Beal
                                            Participant

                                              While not perfect, I think the original concept of only landowners being to vote was a step in the right direction… In corporate speech it would be “stakeholders”. I wouldn’t limit it specifically to land owners, but to those who contribute their tax money. It was their money to start with. When you have a voice in spending someone elses money, there is no limit, but when the contributors vote on spending their own tax money, I think you would have a more sane approach to the size of government. I’m not sure if this would be considered true democracy, or maybe “stakeholder democracy”, or something else. The caveat is that I see no way to get to there from here without a significant cultural shift, and that is the next battlefield.

                                              Just my $0.02

                                            • #89461
                                              Pinky
                                              Participant

                                                Return to something like the Articles of Confederation with fixes for the commerce issues.

                                                Oh how right the anti-federalists were

                                              • #89462
                                                veritas556
                                                Participant

                                                  Well whatever “freedom solution” you fancy, it’s not happening as long as a certain half of this country’s voters are still above ground. Smoke on that one for a minute…

                                                • #89463
                                                  Anonymous
                                                  Inactive

                                                    Return to something like the Articles of Confederation with fixes for the commerce issues.

                                                    Oh how right the anti-federalists were

                                                    Agreed, such a shame confederacy has been rendered into a djrty word.

                                                    A modified Articles of Confederation with a Bill of Rights would be nice.

                                                  • #89464
                                                    TC
                                                    Participant

                                                      Having to pass the citizenship test in order to vote, that would be a good start. If that requires an Amendment so be it. If you can’t make a population enlightened, at least keep the uninformed from voting.

                                                      Also, once AI-assisted behavior analysis, remote brain scanning tech, and genetic testing can identify sociopaths and psychopaths, add them to the black list and disqualify from public service for being ethically retarded.

                                                      That keeps the sheep in the pen and the wolves in the cage. Rest of us can get on with a proper Constitutional Republic then.

                                                      Of course, who’s going to implement and enforce and watch all this for fairness? No one, that’s why it won’t happen. Unless Trump is some 5D Chess Wizard Savior of America. Because it’ll take top-down action at the major pivot points (Supreme Court, etc.) to implement what needs to be done in time. The grassroots is up against an enemy that’s had over a century to infiltrate and control education, media, politics, and now big tech.

                                                    • #89465
                                                      Hessian
                                                      Participant

                                                        Interesting I thought UK was a constitutional monarchy? “democracy” is just a buzz word. It can’t work on a large scale.

                                                        Overall I believe the constitutional republic is fine. However we have strayed so far from what the founders believed in its no wonder we are in the mess that we are.

                                                        Not to worry, as this up and coming presidential election is the last election in which we will be able to elect a republican for president. 2024 begins the new era of democrat presidents as it will be impossible for a republican to win. “democracy” indeed. :negative:

                                                      • #89466
                                                        Andrew
                                                        Participant

                                                          I am all in favor of replacing “Democracy” with going back to a Democratic (Constitutional) Republic.

                                                          Democracy has been turned into a rallying cry for the self-presumed “have-nots” to vote themselves more, at the expensive of those who have worked for what they have. The greed crosses all ethnic lines because I know some “well off” blacks, many “well off” Latinos, and quite a few “well off” Caucasians who would be negatively impacted by this blather if it comes to fruition.

                                                          The “white privilege” male bovine scat is just some more Alinsky crap of identifying and vilifying the target.

                                                        • #89467
                                                          wildbill
                                                          Participant

                                                            JohnnyMac the answer to7 is 6.

                                                            7) I don’t know exactly why, but I think we have too much of our population in jail, and I don’t think it’s because “people are worse these days”

                                                            6) I think it should be much harder to create a law. We have too many already.

                                                            Whether it’s the Constitution, Articles of Confederation or anything in between they are all just ink on paper with no real means to correct abuses of the system on their own it takes a committed populace that will rein in those in power by any means necessary.

                                                            That being said ALL great ideas everyone!

                                                          • #89468
                                                            Tim
                                                            Participant

                                                              Return to something like the Articles of Confederation with fixes for the commerce issues.

                                                              Oh how right the anti-federalists were

                                                              I second this motion. As has been stated before, the problem is accountability and in a nation of 310 million (but who really knows with no southern border?) there is NO accountability. Add to that no one in federal office is willing to hold treasonous democrats accountable. And so we wait for the balloon to go up and it will by November 2020 or shortly thereafter.

                                                            • #89469
                                                              wildbill
                                                              Participant

                                                                there is NO accountability.

                                                                Absolutely true but who is going to hold any of them accountable since the vast majority are in on it.

                                                                Add to that no one in federal office is willing to hold treasonous democrats accountable.

                                                                The Democrats aren’t the only ones that violate the Constitution when it suits their needs the Republicans are right there with them.

                                                                Also remember this whole border problem could have been solved much more easily in 2017/2018 when the Republicans controlled the House/Senate AND the Presidency; hell they couldn’t even repeal ObamaCare. :negative:

                                                                Sorry to say but a state run constitutional convention or amendment convention isn’t going to change anything they will just violate the new “rules” just like they have violated the old rules.

                                                                As an example how much clearer than “shall not be infringed” do you have to be — but politicians seem to be able to find nuances and vagueness in even the simplest language allowing them to create exceptions.

                                                                The problem is not the rule book (i.e. constitution) they work under, it is with the electorate not showing up to vote, voting for the lesser of two weasels or voting for the one that promises to give them more “free stuff”.

                                                                Bread and Circuses is all it takes to keep the masses happy – what is right full liberty compared to the latest IPhone or TV reality show?

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