Recon Practice – Infiltration and data gathering

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    • #66246
      cynikal
      Participant

        I thought I would put this in the lounge due to the nature and legal issues. We have all see the rumors of Muslim training camps in the US (no link off the top of my head). I have some people that want to actually trespass to try and gather intel on these places (we are near 3 on them) armed with video / audio equipment and field craft. worst we figure would be a trespassing charge idk. trying to get a feel for this, is it even worth it or should we actually push to prove this right or wrong?

      • #66247
        owl21
        Participant

          Recon is FAR more than getting onsite/trespassing. Most places have one way in and out, usually the driveway. You can monitor this area in many ways, from public property, and with all forms of equipment. Establishing data on who is there, where they go when they leave, what they drive, who they associate with, and so on, can usually render far greater intel than one would imagine. This is the physical version of META DATA, which is what the ABC outfits wish so much to have and keep.

          (concealed motion sensing cameras are your friend for such long term surveillance.)

          Now ask yourself if they were doing the same to you, how you would feel and react to it?

          Ut sementem feceris ita metes

        • #66248
          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
          Moderator

            Advocating breaking laws is not what this Forum is about.

            I understand the enthusiasm to do “something” concrete, but for your safety I would not do this!

            …worst we figure would be a trespassing charge…

            Trespassing in this type of situation could be the least of your problems.

            Possibilities (not comprehensive):

            Killed and buried in a shallow grave.

            Killed and reported to LEO as a possible hate crime against a religious minority.

            Run across LEO or “Other Agencies” surveillance of location.

            Not to mention bringing it up on this Forum or anywhere else online.

            …is it even worth it or should we actually push to prove this right or wrong?

            No!

            This is not a issue of Civil Disobedience, taking a stand against a violation of the Constitution, or an act of Defense against Tyranny.

            Again for emphasis! Advocating breaking laws is not what this Forum is about.

          • #66249
            Corvette
            Participant

              While this site certainly does not encourage anything illegal.. :whistle: …part of me feels that a Recon against a real location might have some real training value.. despite ( or because?) some real risk is incurred…

            • #66250
              Andrew
              Participant

                I suspect YOU would end up under surveillance, probably by Fed leos.

                However, Google earth, might be a good source of information as well as the local property records office.

              • #66251
                Corvette
                Participant

                  I blame that damn “Covert Rural Surveillance” book advertised on the right of the web page. ;-)

                  Seriously though my 0.02 cents worth is that it’s a risk reward thing at this pre-sporty stage. I am sure that there is a level of situational awareness that can be obtained through OSInt sources rather than getting yourself on a stalking list with the LEOs or worse sill, getting rumbled by some fanatics. You don’t want to be starring in any propaganda videos at this stage. :cry:

                  In Australia yesterday the security forces swooped on two Muslims in Sydney planning a public attack with hunting knife and machete who had just recorded their “hero” video.

                • #66252
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    …Recon against a real location might have some real training value…

                    True as far as it goes, however I would recommend some real training by a professional before doing a close in recon of a potentially armed fanatical adversary. :yes:

                  • #66253
                    DiznNC
                    Participant

                      Well, number one, if you were really serious about doing this, you’d just do it and not bullshit about it on the internet, leaving a paper trail of your intent, and probably dragging Max and everyone else along with you to court.

                      Number two, consider the consequences of your actions. Are you ready to shoot and kill someone to exfil the target area if discovered? If you are captured, are you ready for the orange jumpsuit and beheading on AL-Jazeera? If you are turned over to authorities, what will you lose? All your assets? Your freedom? Do you even posses the necessary skills to pull this off? This isn’t some bullshit fantasy game.

                      Number three, what do you really think you will accomplish? Even if you’re mission is successful and you have the video tape to prove it. Even money says a sharp lawyer will get it thrown out for being illegally obtained. Public opinion may be against YOU. The authorities might shit all over themselves prosecuting YOU instead of the enemy, to show our tolerance of Islam.

                      Number four, let’s say you’re successful. The authorities take your video and arrest these guys. You’re a big hero and get interviewed on Fox news. All your friends in your fantasy video game league think you’re the bomb. How long do you think it will take until an Islamic hit team arrives at YOUR door? Or arranges some kind of “accident?

                      Some things should not be talked about in open forum. This is one of them.

                    • #66254
                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                      Moderator

                        Diz,

                        While I agree with the direction of your argument, you might be just a bit harsh.

                        I look at this as more of a wanting to do something tangible; misguided in my opinion, but still just a genuine desire to be of use.

                        More of the DKWYDK kinda thing.

                        All said, Diz presents a plausible description of possible events.

                      • #66255
                        DiznNC
                        Participant

                          My apologies for coming across so strong, but this is very serious shit we’re talking about here. If you want to discus hypotheticals, ok, within that context we can talk about mission requirements and such.

                          But coming up on net and talking about a specific (illegal) operation is NOT a very good idea.

                          I wouldn’t be surprised if they have sympathizers monitoring the net, and security just got doubled.

                          What you should have done, if I may, is to say well me and the boys want to practice a SR mission. Any tips you guys might have?

                          Deciding whether or not to do it, is on you.

                          Again apologies for coming off so strong.

                        • #66256
                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                          Moderator

                            I agree.

                            Some things should not be talked about in open forum.

                            This is something everyone should think about.

                            I personally don’t need further confirmation of these training camps, however it would not surprise me that these high profile ones are just a distraction from ones with a more serious agenda.

                          • #66257
                            owl21
                            Participant

                              Doing surveillance is not illegal. Doing surveillance while doing something illegal (like trespassing) is illegal. A person can conduct legal and lucrative surveillance without trespassing or anything else that might lead to a court appearance.

                              I have used legally obtained covert surveillance data (photos, video, logs, and affidavits) to great success in court. I do not know what cynikal’s exact motives are, but there are legal ways to conduct such surveillance and compile data for any number of uses.

                            • #66258
                              DiznNC
                              Participant

                                That’s a very good point on tradecraft.

                                Sea story alert: This is no shit.

                                I once talked to a dude in a reserve SF unit. He stated there were overt SF teams that went out and trained, and sometimes seemingly looked like clowns, and there were covert SF teams, that didn’t openly drill together, but quietly came together for specific missions, and just as quietly went back to day jobs. According to him, he was part of an overt SF team, that went to Alaska once, ostensibly on a training mission, which “rang the fire alarm” or caused a fuss the Russian defenses would see, which in fact was cover for a covert insertion or extraction. So the thought was the Russians would see his team and think we were a bunch of doofuses, while the real operation went off under their noses.

                                While this is a totally unverified story, is does illustrate the point of using a decoy to take attention away from the real operation. If that’s the case here, then you’re playing their game.

                                I think a more real take on this is the justice department using this as an excuse to close down ALL training sites, including MVT. Why would you even be surprised at this point?

                              • #66259
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  …is does illustrate the point of using a decoy to take attention away from the real operation. If that’s the case here, then you’re playing their game.

                                  I think a more real take on this is the justice department using this as an excuse to close down ALL training sites, including MVT.

                                  The truth is probably a combination Gov political agenda and a diversion by these groups.

                                  In my experience these fanatics leadership may be nuts, but they are not stupid.

                                • #66260
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster

                                    No one wants to advocate anything illegal. However, there are plenty of things to be done within the legal realm. If you have a “list” of multiple recon targets, you can drive the perimeter noting all ingress/egress. You can discretely watch the driveway and take down all the license plates and make/model of the vehicles. With that information you can see if people are going to more than one of the “centers”. The above reference to Google Earth or any other satellite information will also get you very good lay of the land and possible topography. In addition to that information, you can always try the county plat maps for tax records and ownership records.

                                    If your multiple locations are owned by the same person or “group”, now you have a lot of information. And remember, DIZ makes a lot of very good points if you are noticed, captured or surrounded. Make sure your surveillance and your counter-surveillance is very sharp.

                                  • #66261
                                    cynikal
                                    Participant

                                      I have not had the chance to read through all this – I am the hold out on this one. I think passive intel and maybe a drone is warranted at this time. I am in the camp that some of these people are not at all hardcore as that report would claim – I hope i am not naive. doing anything illegal is the last step – I don’t want to help paint a target anywhere near me or be made an example of just yet. I simply believe that these group could be just like me or anyone of you or even miss labeled.

                                      In the same line that when or if the whole world goes to crap the people working to put things back on line (power, water, transportation) will do better than to ones that start shooting passerbys. when the power goes out do you grab a gun a start shooting or do you get a candle? everything in moderation, if SHFT and i am able to make clean water and electricity for phones and small things my local community with help protect me (but just in case i can do that myself too).

                                      EDIT:
                                      just skimmed through, this “team” is not apart of my group I have no online comms with them – they asked me to join in. I just don’t see the ugrency right now in opening a can of legal worms. It sound fun but my family need me but if a “reporter” plays these games it is totally fine.

                                      Diz – i totally agree with you – personally i am to old (42) and to settled to play stupid games to get myself into a crap storm that ends badly. this is a young mans sport.

                                    • #66262
                                      Corvette
                                      Participant

                                        personally i am to old (42) and to settled to play stupid games to get myself into a crap storm that ends badly. this is a young mans sport.

                                        Dont overestimate age either
                                        When I was in my early 40s (am in my late 40s now) I was in incredible shape, climbing, kick-boxing, 10 mile runs in 100F heat, lotsa pull ups, etc etc

                                        We all hit our wall at different times.
                                        if you are 42 you may still have more physical potential left than you may realize..

                                      • #66263
                                        cynikal
                                        Participant

                                          I can out run and out hump 90% of the guys my age – but the young kids are pretty snappy! hahaha I typically run 3-4 miles a day with a 20lbs pack (avg 9min miles) and do P90X with the wife. My only down fall is a like to eat good food like cheesecake and crap – so I workout more. :wacko:

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