RDS to LPVO? Anyone done it for everything?

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    • #106582

        As much as I hate to admit it, I am getting old (almost 45 now) and my eyes seem to showing more signs of astigmatism as the years pass. I have no issues with vision loss, blurry vision, lack of near/far vision clarity, etc, just that my red dot sites (RDS) now all look something like starbursts or lines with starbursts, etc. I was running a magnifier, but that makes it even worse.

        I have replaced a couple of Aimpoint PRO’s with mini-ACOG’s (TA-44, 1.5X) which I like very much, but 1.5X is not 1X. I have also replaced some with Steiner LPVO’s (P4XI, 1-4X low power variable optic).

        Both the TA-44 at 1.5X and P4Xi at 1-4X are much better for the astigmatism and are bright and clear. The TA-44 is very close in size to an Aimpoint T1/T2, but the P4Xi is larger and heavier.

        I am curious if anyone else has made a similar transition and solely runs something other than RDS and your experience. I am finding the size/weight on the P4Xi to be “more” and the 1X, while very, very close to true 1X (not the case on all LPVO’s), is not as fast for me as an RDS. It simply takes longer to acquire targets. The TA-44 is not bad, but in close-up/CQB, the 1.5X is a bit strange. The P4Xi has a single, illuminated red dot in the center of the reticle.

        As for the “pros” of it, there is the clarity (astigmatism related), and the ability to dial up magnification for longer distance, better target clarity.

        Has anyone had a similar experience going from RDS to LPVO? Positive? Tried it and gone back? I feel like an old dog trying to learn new tricks…


      • #106583

          I use a Burris fixed 5x https://www.amazon.com/Burris-300210-AR-536-Sight-Black/dp/B0074YSVFQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1528316755&sr=8-1&keywords=burris ar-536

          works well for me (but I do wear bifocals)

          AT CQB (like in a house), it’s more point shooting but for the distances of 100 M or more, the magnification works well for me. For BUIS, I use the 45-degree canted sights, (sighted in at 50 M)

        • #106584

            @johnnymac has both, has gone back and forth between RDS and LPVO, and has taken CQB already.

          • #106585

              FWIW, I wrestled with the same issue (astigmatism on an RDS) and ultimately went with a 4x ACOG on my primary.

              Reasons: easier scanning and PID at 4x, lightest weight for the magnification (13 oz with mount, half the weight of a typical LPVO), 35% greater field of view than LPVOs at 4x, and battery-free daylight-bright reticle in daytime, which allows both-eyes-open shooting nearly as fast as an RDS.

              I’ve practiced the CQBC techniques indoors with the ACOG and haven’t felt it a detriment, but that won’t be true for everyone. If your eyes/brain can pull off that technique with minimal POA/POI shift then piggybacking an RMR may not be necessary. The thing that dissuaded me from LPVOs is weight and the daylight-bright battery life being measured in days.

              I don’t know if a 1x prism scope would solve your problems but they exist. Vortex Spitfire 1x and the upcoming Primary Arms Cyclops 1x. They’re both around 11 oz.

            • #106586

                Yep, I’ve run: pa microdot, T1, trijicon MRO, aimpoint PRO, burris tac30 1-4, bushnell elite 1-6.5x. For 100M and in (to include the VTC) I personally strongly prefer a microdot (PA advanced microdot or T1). A magnified optic surely has it’s advantages in PID and precision, and it’s light gathering ability. Cons of it are weight (which people like to brush off but really shouldn’t) and the big one- usability in weird/awkward positions. Varying models will be more forgiving than others, but none can compete with the almost unlimited eye box/relief of a red dot.

                I view the microdot as my go-to sight, with a magnified optic for specific situations.

                For tight CQB, sights aren’t even necessary (residential).

                In 5-10 years, my eyesight might be similar to yours (I’m starting to get starbursting in my non-primary eye), and I wouldn’t be afraid to go to a 2x or 3x acog or accupoint.

                It’s a financially painful process to find the best optic…

              • #106587

                  I just run a ACOG TA-31H. It is excellent shooting at distances. But even handier is ability to use it in place of a small binoc. As far as those that say you have to have a red dot for CQB, are full of it. Keep both eyes open and put red circle on what you wanna shoot. It is that simple. I am just as quick with the ACOG as I am with Aimpoint or irons sites. Johnny’s comment on point shooting is true if you have a consistent check weld so rifle points where you look every time.

                  HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                  HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                  FOF X3
                  OPFOR X2
                  CLC X2

                • #106588

                    I have several different dots and two Burris XRR 1-4s. The 1-4s are more precise at say 200-300. But inside 100 yards the dot I like. Weight is a consideration but not a deal breaker. You are almost a quick with the 1-4 down on 1 power and get more precise longer range hits up on 4 power quick on small targets you might not hit or see with a dot.
                    Zombies come it’s a dot. North Koreans its a 1-4. As I have heard at class many times IT DEPENDS.

                  • #106589

                      thanks all. I have tried (twice) the standard ACOG with Chevron and sold both as I could not get my eyes to work up close no matter how hard i tried. I have not tried the horseshoe (yet). Thanks for the input. This is getting expensive!

                    • #106590

                        I started (mostly) moving to LPVO and fix powers a few years ago. I discovered that they just have more utility. Especially in the kind of combat I anticipate and have seen. I’ve gone with a Trijicon accupoint 1-8x for my Army issued M4. For me it makes sense.

                        RDS are good from contact to 200m. Yeah you can make accurate shots much farther but any smart enemy is only going to show you his dominant eye, arm and barrel, so you better maneuver!

                        The reason LPVO are hated on and not as popular is a combination of factors. Cost is one, lack of familiarity another, as well as most understanding that they likely won’t engage a threat stateside farther than 50m out.

                        HOWEVER the biggest factor in my opinion is that most shooters are casual shooters. They like RDS because they lend themselves to sloppiness. You can be inconsistent with your cheek weld and eye relief and still make accurate shots quickly.

                        It takes more time and training to be as good or better (faster) with a LPVO and most don’t dedicate the time.

                        Awkward positions and such are almost never a real factor. You’re eaither close enough it won’t matter how you shoot or far enough away you can take 1 second and get correct positioning.

                        All that said for a police patrol rifle I think an aimpoint is the best choice, Id choose a Comp M4. For your average soldier I think an ACOG 4x is the best option. Of course it depends on the individual. I have a mix of sights and on my home rifle it’s an Aimpoint. It’s more having the knowledge to understand your abilities and the environment you anticipate.

                        I know this might hurt some feelings but we routinely slaughter and make hamburgers out of sacred cows here.

                      • #106591

                          thanks all. I have tried (twice) the standard ACOG with Chevron and sold both as I could not get my eyes to work up close no matter how hard i tried. I have not tried the horseshoe (yet). Thanks for the input. This is getting expensive!

                          I HATE the chevron and the horse shoe. Crosshairs all day! Practice getting a good shoulder and cheek to stock weld with the correct eye relief.

                          Do this by:

                          1. Reading the manual!
                          2. Positioning your ACOG correctly.
                          3. Finding your correct eye relief.
                          4. Landmarking your stock.
                          5. Hold the rifle correct and mentally “feel” where it is and remember that feeling.
                          6. Slowing acquire that good sight over and over.
                          7. Do it in different positions.
                          8. Repeat 10,000 times (good reps).

                        • #106592
                          First Sergeant

                            Ron hit on it pretty good.

                            I never could stand the chevron or the horseshoe. I use the crosshair.

                            Specifically the TA01NSN.

                            Signal Out, Can You Identify
                            Je ne regrette rien
                            In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                          • #106593

                              Having all three, I can say that I like the red dot (Aimpoint PRO) the least and the ACOG the most (it’s a green chevron so YMMV). I can also say, I feel comfortable with using any of them.

                              The red dot, while easy to slave to dialed in irons, doesn’t assist with target PID enough for me to feel comfortable using it for anything more than CQB/Home Defense. On the other hand, the PRO takes up thee least amount of space on my rifle, is more intuitive to use for a beginner IMHO and adds to an overall minimalist aesthetic for the rifle its on.

                              I find the ACOG being my go-to optic for practice & range time, and preferred optic overall. The BDC features make holdovers easier to remember, which the crosshairs in my Leupold Firedot 1.25-4x do as well. I’ve also found that I can use my Leupold without glasses if I need to and both crosshairs and target will be in focus (I’m nearsighted and generally can’t see in focus beyond 6ft or so without corrective lenses), at the expense of looking through a soda straw the whole time. As always, that’s me and YMMV.

                            • #106594

                                I see red, green, and amber…….. red messes with my eyes to much (draws my focus to the reticle versus the target). Green seems to do pretty well. Have no experience with amber.

                                Cross use of home defense, training, and hunting…….suggestions?????…..I currently use a Burris 5x fixed but got to see through an ACOG with a green crosshair (well, the top part was missing)…..and the glass!! WOW, crystal clear and wide FOV….this is why I’m asking….. My longest yardage will be 400…..

                              • #117480

                                  I’m considering purchasing an LPVO. Any of you have had any experience with Primary Arms scopes? Primary Arms has an affordable Platinum Series (34mm tube with kick ass ACSS reticle) 1-8x24mm FFP Rifle Scope rated for 50BMG. My concern would be that it isn’t a durable combat proven optic like Trijicon, Aimpoint or NF. Any suggestions?

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