Moved: Question about Operating with Untrained People

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    • #109724
      Corvette
      Participant

        Excellent article.

        I am somewhat new here so forgive me if this has been mentioned elsewhere; and perhaps this comment should be in a different thread.

        In a post schummer hits the fan world, out of 100 eligible guys you may only have 10% who have had military training worthy of automatic assignment to a CUTT. Perhaps another 20% can be brought up to speed with training. Depending upon location you may have an additional 20% who have spent time in the hills hunting; but are not military oriented in any way.

        If we assume those numbers are roughly accurate; there is 50% who could be used for the non CUTT activities such as intel, logistics, guard duty, observation, etc.

        I would imagine that they may be a role for the 20% who are bolt action deer hunters out there; as most Americans would fall into that category. They would not be the tip of the spear of course; but an automatic relegation to camp duties might be a waste of resources if they could be used as some kind of support for the CUTT first responders.

        I don’t think the quantity of “tip of the spear” guys will be sufficient; and any CUTT may be forced to use anything available.

        What made me think of this was your mention of “suppressive fire” I remember the WW1 and pre-WW1 use of the bolt action as quasi “artillery” with mass long range fire on a target.

        I believe we will have the potential to have 10 bolt action guys show up, for every semi auto guy in any scenario I can envision- speaking broadly of the available pool of recruits.

        I realize this is a bit of a tangent from your thread.

      • #109725
        Max
        Keymaster

          Moved. Will respond. There is value in thise question.

        • #109726
          Corvette
          Participant

            Thanks, I had a feeling it was in the wrong thread :)

          • #109727
            Max
            Keymaster

              This will be relatively quick, it being Friday night. But happy to elaborate.

              Points:

              I don’t think anyone can be automatically assigned to a CUTT without work up training and rehearsals.

              I don’t think ‘hunters’ with bolt guns is the way to go. There should be enough people around with some sort of semi-auto battle rifle/carbine to allow distribution to those who need them. And frankly if you don’t have one now, what are you thinking? But yes there may be exceptions, and perhaps young people who you are training up, or guys who just got out of the military, or whatever.

              But specific weapons aside, whether AR or bolt gun, that is not the real issue. The issue is that any alumni knows how much training it takes to become really effective. Combat leader Course anyone? To be able to work as an infantryman, to not freeze up. To not have fratricide. It takes a lot. And those that are not trained now will be acting all kinds of crazy when they get into their first firefight. Bottom line, they cannot be trusted.

              I will have nothing to do with the can’t train / won’t train fudd crowd when the SHTF. The fucking ‘preppers.’ Absolutely fucking nothing. The only time I will have anything to do with people, is if they show willing and I have an chance to actually train them. Properly train them. Otherwise, when the shit goes down, it will be a shit show.

              Ask me how I know. People won’t like this, but I have trained and operated with indigenous troops and I don’t see any difference. People need training. Do not get in front of the firing line, whatever you do! This also applies to less well trained / less professional US Army units. Been shot at by them also. Ask me how I know how many rounds a B6 armored vehicle glass can stop?

              The bottom line here is that if you have your untrained bolt gun people, there is very little you can do with them. You cannot trust whatever their asshole reaction will be once the fighting starts. I have talked to people at class about this. All you can do is lead them around in straight lines and put them into position. And make sure they are absofucklinglutely clear what the order to open fire and cease fire is, and who will give it.

              So maybe you can run an ambush or a raid that takes the form of an attack by fire. No maneuvering. You put them in in a line, you have them open fire, then you pull them out in a line and get the fuck out of there. Nobody maneuvers and nobody worries about safety angles.

              Think I am cynical about all those natural American riflemen out there? Really. And this applies to Appleseed shooters, and any fucking benchresters, and any tacticool flat range shoot-really-fast queens, as well. Unless they have tactical training and are battle inoculated, and have learned to get their head out of their weapons and communicate, forget about it.

              I’ll be on my porch, in my rocking chair, with my rifle at hand, wearing my MVT Lite Fight Gear.

              BFYTW.

            • #109728
              Max
              Keymaster

              • #109729
                Corvette
                Participant

                  When thinking of a post SHTF environment I envision three stages; anarchy, warlords and then invasion by a opportunistic foreign power.

                  We all know about the anarchy stage by our experiences in the LA Riots, New Orleans, Chicago etc.

                  The warlord stage will take place fairly quickly as groups gather to protect themselves or to be predatory toward others. These groups will gather under a key personality. Gangs, Narcs, ethnic groups etc. As in Mexico, these groups will go from farm to farm, village to village; doing their damage. Similar small groups may be organized to fight those warlords.

                  At some point; as in the book series by Max; a foreign invader may take advantage of the chaos. Russia in the East the China in the west is my guess.

                  At that time there will be a need for some national force to fight against the foreign troops. That may be Federal or State or Localities; but at some point the “indigenous” will need to be trained. There will not be enough pro’s to fight the battle but there should be enough pro’s to teach; in a similar manner that the Green Beret Special Forces were tasked back in the day. Developing indigenous forces.

                  I understand what Max is saying about the danger of training indigenous troops. A small elite highly trained force will always be more efficient. However; a small elite force may not be able to take on Brigades of Russians or Chicoms

                  My opinion then, is that at some point; the pro’s need to leverage their skills to train (as best they can) the rest of the population. Unless of course; they wish to remain an independent “warlord” type of force which will always remain outside the rest of the population to preserve their independence of action.

                  My ancestors came from Manchester England and walked across the plains to Utah. They organized defensive companies of men to fight off the Indians and other bandits; but they were mainly defensive in nature. As they settled many towns; they formed community militias to defend against theft and murder by the Indians.

                  That is my background and probably my bias in this analysis. (side note: unfortunately my 4th great grandfather did not remember the key advice; “always travel in groups of ten” and was killed by Indians while on his way up to Salt Lake to greet his two son’s who just arrived from Manchester; circa 1856)

                  So I agree with you 100% about training; and there can be multiple reasons to train. Train the trainer is one reason that may be of use at some point. If a pro can create 100 semi-pro’s; that is a good thing.

                • #109730
                  Corvette
                  Participant

                    This is where I come up with the “bolt action” crowd; my euphemism for those who show up, wanting to fight the badguys; with nothing but their deer rifles, and a desire to kick butt.

                    A la Minutemen.

                    I am not trying to paint things in a romantic way. But if things go south there will be thousands wanting to take active part in fixing things. There has to be some effective role for them- which will allow the tip of the spear to be more effective.

                  • #109731
                    Corvette
                    Participant

                      Warlords- cartel

                    • #109732
                      Max
                      Keymaster

                        Lot’s of assumptions. As a ‘pro’ you refer to I am simply an individual. I am not a warlord and the very thought is ludicrous. Who is organizing who to make me get off my porch to train a bunch of bolt gunners? Don’t we have an army to fight invaders?

                        I am training people now. After the fact, I’m looking after my family. The only people I might train at that point are group members specifically involved with our mutual self interest of survival. Max’s training shop is closed once the hammer drops.

                      • #109733
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          Thanks. I hope I didn’t offend you with the warlord stage comment. Your book series was spot on in my opinion and with the exception of the evil fake government that was set up, it mirrored my own views of what might take place in the future. (I hadn’t considered the evil fake government; but that is entirely possible).

                          I would label the Shenandoah Boys from the Mountains as a benevolent warlord-stage group. IE, a relatively small group under the leadership of a charismatic leader. I realize this was just the plot of the book; but I think that is actually what happens in real life.

                          That was my point.

                          In any case; I am not pointing fingers but trying to make a larger strategic observation. Luckily we live in great country in which we don’t have to do this for real; and can sit back and speculate.

                          As someone who respects the skills of others; I do hope that when the evil warlords (as the cartel picture illustrates) start terrorizing the country; we the good citizens of Mayberry USA can convince guys like you to get off their porch and help us organize a defense. Having been part of a semi-organized defense during the LA riots; I understand how important it is to have real pro’s around.

                          I will close my part of this conversation because I fear I am offending where no offense is meant.

                        • #109734
                          hellokitty
                          Participant

                            About all an untrained person with a deer rifle will be able to do is harassment. Mainly making a shot at a distance and then run. However, that wont be effective because 90% of hunters out there with a deer rifle cant make a shot past 100 yds. That is why they set up deer stands less than 100 yds from feeders or food plots.

                            It wont be any different than any other insurgency in any of country. The stupid and untrained will get killed off in the first year. The hard core train and smart insurgents will continue on. Afghanistan, Iraq…

                            HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                            HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                            FOF X3
                            OPFOR X2
                            CLC X2
                            RIFLEMAN

                          • #109735
                            Max
                            Keymaster

                              I’m not upset. I’m sitting on the porch drinking a throwback Dew, wishing it was a beer already. Carry on. Helli Kitty is right. I think you mentioned that you have not trained? That’s it right there, DKWYDK. Every blade of grass with a bokt action fudd behind it, and all that.

                              :good:

                            • #109736
                              Corvette
                              Participant

                                Mountain Dew. I can attribute an extra 10 lbs because of Mountain Dew.

                                HelloKitty; I think you would be pleasantly surprise with our Western deer hunters. 400 yards is common; after trucking up and down mountains. But I understand what you are getting at.

                                Training; I have had several carbine classes from an Arizona competitor of yours; along with 3 long range “sniper” precision rifle classes with stalking and camo prep. A Combat medical class and a Force on Force Gunfighter course here in Utah. I have never had squad tactics and coordinated assault type classes. So I could learn at lot more.

                                My active duty days was NAVY aircrew, hunting Russian Submarines from Keflavik Iceland and Misawa Japan. My reserve time was in Intel at the Pentagon (Panama operation). Other than SERE school however (waterboarding is “such” fun); I have not had any infantry type training other than the schools mentioned above.

                                I am keeping an eye on your MTV West training schedule.

                                PS: if you need a Pro in finding, tracking and killing Russian submarines; I am your guy!! The Rooskies are terrified of me; which is why you find no Russian subs in Utah. B-)

                              • #109737
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  I wasn’t aware that I had any competitors, let alone in Utah. Who are you referring to?

                                  MVT is unrivalled in what we do, and how we do it.
                                  B-)

                                • #109738
                                  Ivarr Bergmann
                                  Participant

                                    This thread reminds me of the 1st trip to the wilderness with the new team. The mistakes they made because they didn’t know what they didn’t know. All they did was fall back in their infantry training and the mindset behind it that…At first they seemed receptive to my advice. Even going so far as adapting their kit to better suit the theme of Civilian E&E and changing their horrible Tacticool camo habits to real/effective camo tactics. I even started making werewolf suits for the team…The biggest issues were moving much too fast in bear country and mistakes in formations in the event we bumped a bear (the area is prime moose calving terrain and attracts hungry bears for easy meals) The rest was addressed at the kit level and so on.. I thought i was getting through to them. We agreed on a crawl before walk or run approach with a simple 3 day smock kit drill to feel out our inevitable weak spots and personality differences under semi-control stress.

                                    Yesterday at the team meeting I was blindsided and informed that they want to do a drill and airlift the entire team 50 miles into the wilderness with a Zodiac and climb down a glacier to float back to town. My advice and protest just pissed everyone off. Most of the team hasn’t spent much time together yet other then the fight house and a few cook outs. Some guys are too round for such a trek. Its a disaster waiting to happen..

                                    This is how ppl die. Bravado and not knowing make ppl dead.

                                    Ivarr

                                  • #109739
                                    Corvette
                                    Participant

                                      I wasn’t aware that I had any competitors, let alone in Utah. Who are you referring to?

                                      MVT is unrivalled in what we do, and how we do it.
                                      B-)

                                      Well, maybe “unworthy competitors?” :)

                                      I thought it improper to mention other schools- but you asked.

                                      One Source Tactical- Suarez
                                      Deliberate Dynamics Sniper Country

                                      A couple of the schools I can’t remember as it was 20 years ago. They were not name brand like Gunsite etc.

                                    • #109740
                                      Corvette
                                      Participant

                                        (the area is prime moose calving terrain and attracts hungry bears for easy meals)

                                        I was by myself in the boonies and came face to face with a large female moose. I prayed: ‘please God, don’t there there be baby moose near me.” I lucked out.

                                      • #109741
                                        Robert
                                        Participant

                                          No offense Skywalker, but the scenario you mentioned kind of sounds like the oft abused hero mentality issue that surrounds so much of survivalist/patriot fiction. I.e, when the time comes, “our hero” steps out of nowhere, everyone loves him and he gets them up to speed (preps, training, organization, etc.) and they are forever grateful to him and worship at his feet…. “Butter knife brigades” and so forth.

                                          “Ben Raines…. contact us…..” (Anyone?)

                                          In my mode of thinking, no matter how well prepared we are, we are going to be eyeballs up to alligators with crap to do if TSHTF. The last thing I am going to be want to do is train some johnny come lately’s with dubious loyalties.

                                        • #109742
                                          Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                          Moderator

                                            Skywalker; the goal, as you should hopefully realize is to get as many people trained up prior to what may come.

                                            The American Hunter is not what it once was (if ever). Yes there are some that are competent marksman, but the actual act of pulling the trigger is a very small part of SUT.

                                            Giving the background stated, the most useful experience mentioned is probably Aircrew on P-3’s.

                                            Why?

                                            It demonstrates the ability to work as part of coordinated team to achieve mission success irregardless of the fact that none of the actual skillsets are applicable. Teamwork is a very important part of SUT.

                                            Unfortunately many will have to try to build teams “Post-Event,” the learning curve is steep and many lives will be spent unnecessarily. This lack of foresight is a troubling fact.

                                            The odds of finding competent Veterans “Post-Event” that truly have the ability to train up these “hunters” are poor. Never forget that most Veterans are “support” types.

                                            SERE school; whether in Warner Springs or Rangeley, is a great course, but has no relation to Infantry training.

                                            The various comments here from others above is meant to be helpful based on a variety of backgrounds and real experience with DKWYDK.

                                            Consider it from that point of view.

                                          • #109743
                                            Corvette
                                            Participant

                                              No offense Skywalker, but the scenario you mentioned kind of sounds like the oft abused hero mentality issue that surrounds so much of survivalist/patriot fiction. I.e, when the time comes, “our hero” steps out of nowhere, everyone loves him and he gets them up to speed (preps, training, organization, etc.) and they are forever grateful to him and worship at his feet…. “Butter knife brigades” and so forth.

                                              “Ben Raines…. contact us…..” (Anyone?)

                                              In my mode of thinking, no matter how well prepared we are, we are going to be eyeballs up to alligators with crap to do if TSHTF. The last thing I am going to be want to do is train some johnny come lately’s with dubious loyalties.

                                              Thanks, I take no offense.

                                              Yes, there are books and movies that address exactly what you are talking about. Red Dawn on one side of the reality spectrum and more tactically oriented books on the other side of the spectrum

                                              There are two ways to look at a major disaster/conflict. Family/Tribe first, and the rest of you are on your own (for whatever reason); or how can I get the community ready for what’s coming. I am arguing for the later. No bravado or need for adulation intended.

                                              There is a certain benefit to quantity over quality. I would rather have 100 Marines on my team than 10 SAS. Yes, the SAS are much better trained; but the Marines are close enough and there are a bunch more of them.

                                              I guess it depends on the mission; and perhaps that is why we are going back and forth.

                                              If you are an assault team; then the highly trained; small group is probably better. My fault; perhaps that is what MVT is oriented towards.

                                              If you are for survival of the community; then a different approach may be better; more of the old Green Beret build up of indigenous forces approach

                                            • #109744
                                              Ivarr Bergmann
                                              Participant

                                                Skywalker; the goal, as you should hopefully realize is to get as many people trained up prior to what may come.

                                                This is the problem. The ones who really want to get dirty and improve are so few and far between its utterly mind smashing. Gear queers, YT Kommandos, TV/movie emulation junkies, talkers that just talk the talk, posers, Tacticool pussy dicks are everywhere.. This chasing the fantacy dragon has been a universal theme since the internet brought ppl like us together.. The more BS thats peddled out there the more the hoards of useless consumers posing as situational effectives grows and the real do’ers are simply impossible to find as the numbers of the useless grow..

                                                This is another topic that falls into the Harpies compartment for me because its keeps coming back all the time. Its just keeps coming back and never changes much like the “what to take when the hammer drops” conversations..

                                                Ivarr

                                              • #109745
                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                Moderator

                                                  I thought i was getting through to them.

                                                  You probably are, but it seems they want some “adventure” which is fine to a point.

                                                  As serious as you take this I suspect you will have to struggle to ground their “enthusiasm!” ;-)

                                                  The survivors in the movie “Deliverance” learned some valuable lessons too, hopefully you can steer them in a better way to learn them.

                                                  Good luck in your efforts.

                                                • #109746
                                                  Ivarr Bergmann
                                                  Participant

                                                    I thought i was getting through to them.

                                                    You probably are, but it seems they want some “adventure” which is fine to a point.

                                                    As serious as you take this I suspect you will have to struggle to ground their “enthusiasm!”

                                                    You know thats a great perspective. Thank you for pointing that out..Damn that was poignant..

                                                    Ivarr

                                                  • #109747
                                                    Corvette
                                                    Participant

                                                      Thanks all.

                                                      I am starting to get lost in what we are disagreeing on.

                                                      I am all for training. I have had some; a tiny bit compared to those of you who have 3 tours in Afghanistan (or elsewhere), or those of you who have 100’s of hours in classes; but I have more than the average guy.

                                                      I don’t think you are arguing that average Joe’s should not get trained…and that more is better than less.

                                                      What I am getting confused with is my perception that once the balloon goes up, some of you are saying it is too late and that you aren’t going to bother working with the millions of guys who want to help; in any way they can. That the unworthy masses should just go away and leave you alone. My guess is that a lot of those former Nintendo fat boys are going to be highly motivated after their families are murdered and they have detoxed off of soda and pizza.

                                                      That is what I think I am hearing.

                                                    • #109748
                                                      Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                      Moderator

                                                        Another issue to consider; even people who have a SUT background among Veterans, are they flexible enough to adapt the military “Way” to something applicable to a “Post-Event” Way?

                                                      • #109749
                                                        Corvette
                                                        Participant

                                                          Skywalker; the goal, as you should hopefully realize is to get as many people trained up prior to what may come.

                                                          The American Hunter is not what it once was (if ever). Yes there are some that are competent marksman, but the actual act of pulling the trigger is a very small part of SUT.

                                                          Giving the background stated, the most useful experience mentioned is probably Aircrew on P-3’s.

                                                          Why?

                                                          It demonstrates the ability to work as part of coordinated team to achieve mission success irregardless of the fact that none of the actual skillsets are applicable. Teamwork is a very important part of SUT.

                                                          Unfortunately many will have to try to build teams “Post-Event,” the learning curve is steep and many lives will be spent unnecessarily. This lack of foresight is a troubling fact.

                                                          The odds of finding competent Veterans “Post-Event” that truly have the ability to train up these “hunters” are poor. Never forget that most Veterans are “support” types.

                                                          SERE school; whether in Warner Springs or Rangeley, is a great course, but has no relation to Infantry training.

                                                          The various comments here from others above is meant to be helpful based on a variety of backgrounds and real experience with DKWYDK.

                                                          Consider it from that point of view.

                                                          Thanks. Warner Springs by the way :) My war criminal number was 41.

                                                          I am not taking offense to any of this and am willing to learn; I am just confused as to what I am hearing. And where what I am hearing leads.

                                                        • #109750
                                                          Corvette
                                                          Participant

                                                            Another issue to consider; even people who have a SUT background among Veterans, are they flexible enough to adapt the military “Way” to something applicable to a “Post-Event” Way?

                                                            I think that is where Bergmann is pointing.

                                                            I would imagine that a guerrilla is different than an Army Ranger. In logistics, tactics and attitude.

                                                          • #109751
                                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                            Moderator

                                                              …some of you are saying it is too late and that you aren’t going to bother…

                                                              I suspect there is quite a bit of “frustration” shaping those remarks. It can be very difficult to know what needs to be done when you are thwarted by a variety of factors and personalities.

                                                              Some of us have been involved in these efforts for decades, going through periods of a jaded outlook are par for the course!

                                                              Most will step up; even if reluctantly, to do what is needed if the time comes.

                                                            • #109752
                                                              Corvette
                                                              Participant

                                                                Most will step up; even if reluctantly, to do what is needed if the time comes.

                                                                Yes, I believe you are correct. I am being unfair; you are right that circumstances and reality will change what we all think today.

                                                                I was on another forum years ago and they prided themselves on being Pirates….Tribe first and screw the rest. I couldn’t understand the attitude; but I guess if you get burned too many times trying to help ungrateful people; you can come to that conclusion.

                                                                I imagine that a lot of cops feel that way.

                                                              • #109753
                                                                hellokitty
                                                                Participant

                                                                  One of the important lessons I learned at MVT is how lethal a squared away squad of just 8 guys can be against individuals. It really was hammered home at Force on Force. Even if you have taken all the square range classes in the country, if a small squad is using SUT and maneuvering on you. And you dont have a team, you are gonna die. But if you try to tell that to the gun/prepper:patriot community, they will argue with you. Its frustrating for me and Im not a trainer.

                                                                  HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                                                  HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                                                  FOF X3
                                                                  OPFOR X2
                                                                  CLC X2
                                                                  RIFLEMAN

                                                                • #109754
                                                                  Max
                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                    From a beginning about training fudds with bolt guns, to which you got the real answer, I too am not sure what you are about here. One of the issues is that you have not taken an MVT SUT class and this simply do not know what the alumni here are telling you.

                                                                    All these scenarios with different types of veterans and millions that need to be trained?

                                                                    No one knows what the collapse will look like. The information being presented to you is that people need to be training now. You cannot operate with untrained people, it is a liability. When SHTF, guys who are trained will primarily be responsible for their families – because most here themselves do not have a CUTT to be part of.

                                                                    No one has a responsibility to millions of other people who never got training. They only have a responsibility to their family, and to NOW try and find a group of SUT trained and motivated people to be part of.

                                                                  • #109755
                                                                    Corvette
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      Thanks, I agree with you that people need to be trained NOW. And little by little this person is doing that.

                                                                      As you mentioned at the beginning, this subject has value. It is a subject I have been interested in ever since the LA Riots; when the fires were getting closer and closer to my neighborhood. I have no agenda; just an interest in the topic.

                                                                      In any case; I think I fully understand the consensus on this subject and I appreciate everyone’s responses.

                                                                    • #109756
                                                                      ahmed11
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        oooh nice thread

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